The Official Infinite Crisis/52 thread!

[Leckomaniac]

Ok I just got done reading Infinite Crisis #6...and I have to admit I got real choked up when Superboy died.

I mean he has gone through a real rough arc as of late...and it was great to see him go out as a hero...I was really beginning to like him.

[bastard_robo]

7 came out today.... what are everyone's thoughts on the closer of this "EPIC" of sorts?

[Theta]

Ok I just got done reading Infinite Crisis #6...and I have to admit I got real choked up when Superboy died.

I mean he has gone through a real rough arc as of late...and it was great to see him go out as a hero...I was really beginning to like him.

Yeah, I kinda grew up with Connor and was sad to see him go. Although we all know he's coming back, even if the person doing the experiment was a surprise.

[ONeillSG1]

I loved the double page pic of all the villians. I also dug the Green Lanterns picture.

Seeing the lead in with Clark powerless, Bruce and Tim going on an "adventure" together and Diana "finding herself" wants me to get the One Year Laters.

But, after seeing the reactions in the other forum over how bad they are, I just can't get myself to do it.

The Clark Kent Power Ring storyline intrigues me to no end. Clark Kent, Green Lantern. Sound like the What If's of What If's.

Overall: 7 out of 10 for the stellar artwork and engaging story.

On to Civil War? I think not.

[Adam Balm]

The Clark Kent Power Ring storyline intrigues me to no end. Clark Kent, Green Lantern. Sound like the What If's of What If's.

And how many times has it been done before? Seriously? There was even that one mini where he was the powerless last son of earth and he wound up on Krypton and became its Green Lantern.

Not trying to knock it when I haven't read it yet, but it's not really a what if anymore. We've seen it. In several different continuities. It's been done.

I dunno. Morrison and Waid are supposed to be advisors on this whole universal revamp, right? I look at DC One Million and Kingdom Come, and what these guys have done in the past when they're allowed to remake the DCU in their image, and I'm not seeing the creativity they once showed. I know it's an old and cliched statement, but all this feels like change just for the sake of change.

[Keepcoolbutcare]

7 came out today.... what are everyone's thoughts on the closer of this "EPIC" of sorts?

sad to see it go so soon, wished they had 12 issues to really shore up the story instead of forcing us to buy the tie-ins.

but loved the Joker FINALLY showing up and doing what he does best.

So Wally's gone, Bart's back but powerless, and a "only" sound barrier breaking Jay left of the Flashes. I thought Johns had a great run with Wally, sad to see him go (for now).

I was actually chilled by the ending, we all know he'll get out at some point but carving the S on his chest...damn. He's a wrong nutter, but a good wildcard to have in the mix.

Question...did Nightwing, like die? They implied it, but I'm pretty sure he lives, no?

I'll give it half a point higher than O'Neil, but they missed out on a stone cold classic by not having it go on for 12 issues. Guess everything has to fit in trade form, so much for a TRUE reboot.

[buster00]

Question...did Nightwing, like die? They implied it, but I'm pretty sure he lives, no?

I'll give it half a point higher than O'Neil, but they missed out on a stone cold classic by not having it go on for 12 issues. Guess everything has to fit in trade form, so much for a TRUE reboot.

Yeah, I presume that's Grayson standing next to Tim on the boat. Unless it's The New Alfred, and I TOTALLY missed something...

Overall, I'll give the whole experience (from Blue Beetle's noggin shot to Superboy's self-scarification, and all the crossovers in between) a good solid A minus. It kept me engaged, truly wondering who might be next to get the heave-ho (and I still have some questions about that two-page spread of the heroes, near the end). All the writers involved put their puzzle pieces together impeccably. If they shaved corners to force a fit here or there, I didn't notice much. As for the art, George Perez in particular is always magnificent.

Now the jackpot question -- who here is gonna start investing their hard earned bread in 52? I haven't decided yet. I don't care if it IS Grant Morrison...I'm not a big commitment guy...

[Theta]

I dunno. Morrison and Waid are supposed to be advisors on this whole universal revamp, right?

Supposedly. Considering how busy they are, though, I don't think their fingers are too deep in THAT pie. I am a little pissed "Seven Soldiers of Victory" was abruptly yanked into mainstream DCU continuity...part of the fun was the reboot.

[Keepcoolbutcare]

I'm not a big commitment guy...

and here I was still waiting for a phone call .

[Adam Balm]

Now the jackpot question -- who here is gonna start investing their hard earned bread in 52? I haven't decided yet. I don't care if it IS Grant Morrison...I'm not a big commitment guy...

I'm waiting for the Adam Strange issues. They keep promising that he'll play a big part. He'll probably end up buying it though, so maybe I shouldn't bother..

[DennisMM]

Now the jackpot question -- who here is gonna start investing their hard earned bread in 52? I haven't decided yet. I don't care if it IS Grant Morrison...I'm not a big commitment guy...

Grant Morrison was not my primary reason for adding it to my hold list. Morrison is very iffy these days. The Filth was nearly incomprehensible, but what I've read of his more mainstream work (and even WE3 qualifies compared to The Filth) has been interesting. There are four writers and many stories to follow over the next year, so I'm giving it a chance.

[Theta]

I will be reading 52. I ain't buying it though, unless it's good, and THEN I'll pick up the trade. I dislike gimmickry and that's what this book stinks of.

[Kilgore]

I will be reading 52. I ain't buying it though, unless it's good, and THEN I'll pick up the trade. I dislike gimmickry and that's what this book stinks of.

Also, Booster Gold plays a prominent role, from what I can tell. Take what you will from that, but I don't think that shouts 'must-read' no matter what the situation.

[Adam Balm]

Okay, I just saw the cover to issue #9, when what to my wondering eyes should appear....





That's right. Silhouetted against the jungle canopy is the unmistakable profile of ADAM STRANGE motherbitches!

So I know I'll be reading at least one issue...

[Theta]

I will be reading 52. I ain't buying it though, unless it's good, and THEN I'll pick up the trade. I dislike gimmickry and that's what this book stinks of.

Also, Booster Gold plays a prominent role, from what I can tell. Take what you will from that, but I don't think that shouts 'must-read' no matter what the situation.

Hey! I like Booster Gold! I have a certain nostalgia for him that comes from being a kid and thinking JLI was utterly hilarious.

I'm just glad they didn't do what they'd normally do to "reinvent" the character: use the death of Ted Kord as a lame excuse to give Booster a black leather costume, make him all mopey and homicidal (possibly alcoholic) and give him a limited series called "Booster." Possibly the title would be written in "blood."

Although the more I think about it, the more I want somebody to be allowed to do that. Dear God, that'd be hilarious.

[Adam Balm]

I can't tell if that's Booster Gold in the center of the pic above or Animal Man...

Thoughts?

[Theta]

I can't tell if that's Booster Gold in the center of the pic above or Animal Man...

Thoughts?

Animal Man. Look at the color of the tights (I can't believe I actually just wrote that.)

Hey, wouldn't it be hilarious if Grant Morrison were inserted into continuity? If they're doing it to the Spirit...why not the Grantster?

[ONeillSG1]

The Clark Kent Power Ring storyline intrigues me to no end. Clark Kent, Green Lantern. Sound like the What If's of What If's.

And how many times has it been done before? Seriously? There was even that one mini where he was the powerless last son of earth and he wound up on Krypton and became its Green Lantern.

Not trying to knock it when I haven't read it yet, but it's not really a what if anymore. We've seen it. In several different continuities. It's been done.

I dunno. Morrison and Waid are supposed to be advisors on this whole universal revamp, right? I look at DC One Million and Kingdom Come, and what these guys have done in the past when they're allowed to remake the DCU in their image, and I'm not seeing the creativity they once showed. I know it's an old and cliched statement, but all this feels like change just for the sake of change.

I totally agree. Especially seeing the Hush and Bruce Wayne Fugitive storylines (though they were just Batman storylines), you can tell there was a turn for the best in regards to writing.

But, I guess they felt changes were needed.

[Keepcoolbutcare]

Hell I don't know. It all seems so damn over-complicated and confusing to me...

oh man, if you're confused, pity the rest of us non-genius types, flinging poo at each other as we try to suss out just what the fuck's going on at DC...

[Adam Balm]

I totally agree. Especially seeing the Hush and Bruce Wayne Fugitive storylines (though they were just Batman storylines), you can tell there was a turn for the best in regards to writing.

But, I guess they felt changes were needed.

Although to be fair, since I wrote that, Infinite Crisis #7 came out and we can now see that Morrison/Waid/Johns etc. now have free reign to re-write continuity (with it being New Earth and all). So judging from that issue it looks like the changes are only just beginning and it's too early to form an opinion. It looks like the whole GL Supes was just a way to rebuild Supes from the ground up, depowering to show him that his powers aren't what make the man (I assume) as they work toward re-establishing the character. Or something. Hell I don't know. It all seems so damn over-complicated and confusing to me and I wish they could just take a cue from the Ultimate Universe if they want to start again from scratch in a new continuity.

[RUMPLEDFORESKIN]

Superboy Prime was too "Anakin Skywalker" as a villain.

"Its all Obi Kals Fault! hes always holding me back!"

"When I grow up I will be the most powerful Jedi Superman, ever!"

[Coldfire24]

I actually liked at the end....spoiler














Where he carved the S into his chest...I think they need to just let him break out and fuck everything up but just be smart about it....i'm thinking a superboy serial killer.

[Adam Balm]

Superboy Prime was too "Anakin Skywalker" as a villain.

"Its all Obi Kals Fault! hes always holding me back!"

"When I grow up I will be the most powerful Jedi Superman, ever!"

Yeah, I think maybe Superboy Prime was supposed to be the whiny fanboy who hates change, and wants to turn everything back to how he remembers his heroes being when he was a kid. (For anybody who doesn't know who Superboy Prime is, he's supposed to be from "our" universe. If you've ever read Superman: Secret Identity, you've seen him. He was a Superman fanboy who one day put on a costume and discovered he had powers.)

It's actually kind of profound, especially since they're turning back continuity now to how things were when Waid/Morrison/Johns were kids...

[Leckomaniac]

Superboy Prime was too "Anakin Skywalker" as a villain.

"Its all Obi Kals Fault! hes always holding me back!"

"When I grow up I will be the most powerful Jedi Superman, ever!"

Yeah, I think maybe Superboy Prime was supposed to be the whiny fanboy who hates change, and wants to turn everything back to how he remembers his heroes being when he was a kid. It's actually kind of profound, especially since they're turning back continuity now to how things were when Waid/Morrison/Johns were kids...

Wow Adam I hadn't considered that possibility. I agree, that does seem rather profound.

Thanks for the food for thought Adam.

[DennisMM]

Clark from Secret Identity is not Superboy Prime SB-P is a selfish and glory-seeking individual. The character in SI is far more reasonable and does, in fact, grow up to become Superman. Also, at the end of the series it's revealed that he's but one of many who received unusual abilities because of a comet pass-by or somesuch. Not the same character at all.

[Adam Balm]

Clark from Secret Identity is not Superboy Prime SB-P is a selfish and glory-seeking individual. The character in SI is far more reasonable and does, in fact, grow up to become Superman. Also, at the end of the series it's revealed that he's but one of many who received unusual abilities because of a comet pass-by or somesuch. Not the same character at all.

You might want to read Kurt Busiek's newsarama interview from when it came out. Busiek's intention for like two decades was to write a Superboy Prime story. The only problem was that Crisis happened in 86, and Superboy Prime didn't exist anymore. So finally he wrote the story anyway, putting a new spin on it, and it became Secret Identity.

[Adam Balm]

Since Crisis is over and 52 #1 drops today, I guess I'll update this thread accordingly.

Anybody pick this up?

[MasterWhedon]

Okay, I'm not a DC guy, but I know the Crisis was supposed to be big. Anyone want to summarize it for me?

[Adam Balm]

SPOILERS!!

The story begins in the wake of the crises of the four lead-in limited series, with Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman feuding, the JLA Watchtower destroyed, and the heroes of the world all facing a variety of menaces. Over this backdrop, Kal-L (the Earth-Two Superman), along with Earth-Two Lois Lane, Earth-Three Alexander Luthor, and Superboy-Prime escape from the pocket universe they were sent to in Crisis on Infinite Earths. Kal-L seeks out his cousin, Power Girl, also a survivor of Earth-Two. Believing Lois's health will improve on her native world, he hopes to replace the current Earth with Earth-Two, which he considers perfect.

Kal-L tries to enlist Batman's support, stating that the Post-Crisis Earth's inherent "bad" nature caused Batman's recent mistrust and hostility. Batman refuses. Afterward, Batman learns Superboy-Prime destroyed the JLA Watchtower.

Alexander reveals to Power Girl that he and Superboy-Prime had been leaving their "paradise" for some time, manipulating events to help create an inter-dimensional tuning fork. Using the Anti-Monitor's remains and captured heroes and villains specifically attuned to former universes (Power Girl among them), Alex restores Earth-Two, un-populated except for Earth-Two heroes mysteriously transported there.

Superboy-Prime attacks Conner, this world's Superboy. Multiple super-teams intervene. Superboy-Prime kills several heroes before the Flashes and Kid Flash force him into the Speed Force, assisted by speedsters already within it. Jay Garrick, the only speedster left behind, says the Speed Force is now gone.

Seeking a perfect world, Alexander restores many alternate Earths. The Earth-Two Lois dies, and an aggrieved Kal-L and the younger Superman Kal-El fight until Wonder Woman separates them. Bart Allen (wearing Barry Allen's costume and aged to adulthood) emerges from the Speed Force, warning that he and the other speedsters were unable to hold Superboy-Prime, who returns wearing armor that stores yellow sunlight to empower him.

Batman's strike force destroys the Brother Eye satellite. Alexander selects and merges alternate Earths, trying to create a "perfect" world, until Firestorm blocks his efforts. Conner, Nightwing, and Wonder Girl release the Tower's prisoners. Fighting each other, Conner and Superboy-Prime collide with the tower, destroying it. The multiple Earths recombine into a "New Earth" as Conner dies in Wonder Girl's arms.

When a hoard of supervillains attack Metropolis, heroes fly off to the rescue. Superboy-Prime takes off to destroy Oa, planning to collapse the Universe. Superboy-Prime kills many Green Lanterns trying to stop him before Kal-L and Kal-El carry him toward Krypton's remains. Flying through its sun destroys Superboy-Prime's armor and causes the Kryptonians' powers to dissipate. Landing on the planet Mogo, they fight. After Superman finally knocks Superboy-Prime out, Kal-L dies in the arms of his cousin, Power Girl.

Back on Earth, Batman contemplates shooting Alex but is discouraged by Wonder Woman. Alex escapes, only to be tortured and killed by the Joker who is angry at being left out of the Society, while a gloating Lex Luthor looks on.

Wonder Woman, Batman, and Superman later meet up in Gotham. Wonder Woman plans to find out who she is. Batman plans a similar journey of self-discovery, revisiting the training of his youth, this time with Dick Grayson and Tim Drake along. Superman retires from superheroics until his powers return.

The Green Lantern Corps imprison Superboy-Prime inside a red Sun-Eater. The series ends with him carving an S into his chest with his bare hands and declaring that he has been in worse places than his current prison and has always escaped.

The DCU is now taking place on 'New Earth', where continuity has kind of reverted back to pre-crisis-1 in some ways. Batman knows who killed his parents, Superman was Superboy as a kid, and so on. We don't know exactly everything that's changed, so we now have to buy #52 and the OYL titles to find out.

[TonyWilson]

SPOILERS!!



The DCU is now taking place on 'New Earth', where continuity has kind of reverted back to pre-crisis-1 in some ways. Batman knows who killed his parents, Superman was Superboy as a kid, and so on. We don't know exactly everything that's changed, so we now have to buy #52 and the OYL titles to find out.

So would now be a good time to get into the DCU?

[Adam Balm]

I dunno. It's really weird because in some ways the intention was to simplify, but since they're continuing a story instead of starting from scratch, it's kind of hard to follow...

[MasterWhedon]

Thanks for posting that, Adam, but holy crap does that read like some gobbledygook. I just never, ever had any interest in the parallel universes and shit that the DCU seemed to be really into, so I'm glad I skipped this.

The only way I'll get back into DC comics is if they create a revamped Ultimate-like line that will free itself up from all that mess. Birthright should be turned into an ongoing, and Batman Begins should be the template for a new line as well.

[DennisMM]

Reading the last few issues of Infinite Crisis gave me no idea that Superman once was Superboy. Was this squirreled away in a panel I missed somewhere?

Whedon, the likelihood of your desire is made less likely through the simple existence of Marvel's Ultimate line. DC doesn't want to be seen as copying Marvel's success, though the All-Star line could be considered a rough lob in the same direction. The intent there appears to be a step back into simplicity.

[Theta]

SPOILERS!!



The DCU is now taking place on 'New Earth', where continuity has kind of reverted back to pre-crisis-1 in some ways. Batman knows who killed his parents, Superman was Superboy as a kid, and so on. We don't know exactly everything that's changed, so we now have to buy #52 and the OYL titles to find out.

So would now be a good time to get into the DCU?

Ironically, probably not, because it's based on an old continuity and you probably need to have been reading DC from about 1961 to really understand just what the fuck is going on.

On the other hand, this is why God gave us Wikipedia, which I'm starting to think exists exclusively to catch up new readers on backstory.

[Seppuku]

On the other hand, this is why God gave us Wikipedia, which I'm starting to think exists exclusively to catch up new readers on backstory.

I take it you've never had an argument with a deranged browncoat about how The Whedon is too young to have written The Godfather Part II and invented Robin Hood and discovered the Holy Grail and... because I have. Thank you Wickipedia, you have ended many a pointless online rant ere it spiralled rapidly out of control.

[Theta]

The only way I'll get back into DC comics is if they create a revamped Ultimate-like line that will free itself up from all that mess. Birthright should be turned into an ongoing, and Batman Begins should be the template for a new line as well.

The funny part is DC actually bothers with the housecleaning; Marvel could use a Crisis or two, frankly.

Still it'd be nice to see DC ripping off from Marvel instead of the other way around. The House of Ideas deserves some of its own back. Frankly, if DC wanted to do an "Ultimate" type line (probably under the fairly disused "Elseworlds" imprint), they should really reboot right down to the origins. They let Stan Lee loose on the DCU a few years back and while they weren't ALL classics, it was great to see unique takes on these characters. I'd pay to see a completely revamped Hal Jordan.

[Adam Balm]

Reading the last few issues of Infinite Crisis gave me no idea that Superman once was Superboy. Was this squirreled away in a panel I missed somewhere?

I didn't see it in there either but I've heard more than a few repeat it. So it was either a) in another comic besides Crisis-2 or b) somebody mentioned it in an interview or it was hinted at somewhere or c) people just repeat shit they hear without double-checking.

I can't see that DC would re-introduce this idea with both Smallville and scenes in Superman Returns are along the lines of the Donner influenced Byrne origin.

Whedon, the likelihood of your desire is made less likely through the simple existence of Marvel's Ultimate line. DC doesn't want to be seen as copying Marvel's success, though the All-Star line could be considered a rough lob in the same direction. The intent there appears to be a step back into simplicity.

The problem with the All-Star line is that it is intended to be 'the classic characters as you know them'. That means no experimentation ala the Ultimate line, no updating them for the modern world, no fresh new takes. My hope is that maybe the All-Star line is supposed to be for the fans who want the comfortable, never changing characters you know and love, to give DC more freedom to play around with their DCU, rebooting in a more ultimatey way...but who the hell knows.

The funny part is DC actually bothers with the housecleaning; Marvel could use a Crisis or two, frankly.

Yeah, they could call it Heroes Reborn...

But seriously, anybody remember when Joe Q started that rumor that the Ultimate universe would gradually replace the regular Marvel U? I would've been fine with that. Too bad it was just a prank to make Rich Johnston look like a tard.

[MasterWhedon]

Whedon, the likelihood of your desire is made less likely through the simple existence of Marvel's Ultimate line. DC doesn't want to be seen as copying Marvel's success, though the All-Star line could be considered a rough lob in the same direction. The intent there appears to be a step back into simplicity.

The problem with the All-Star line is that it is intended to be 'the classic characters as you know them'. That means no experimentation ala the Ultimate line, no updating them for the modern world, no fresh new takes. My hope is that maybe the All-Star line is supposed to be for the fans who want the comfortable, never changing characters you know and love, to give DC more freedom to play around with their DCU, rebooting in a more ultimatey way...but who the hell knows.

Yeah, the All Stars are fun, but I'd really, really like to see a ground-up rebuilding of the DC Universe in a modern world.

I'm not a fan of all of the choices in the Marvel Ultimate line, but I love that they take enormous risks with the characters and storylines.

As I said, a proper relaunch is probably the only thing that will get me to buy a Batman or Superman book again.

[Leckomaniac]

Whedon, the likelihood of your desire is made less likely through the simple existence of Marvel's Ultimate line. DC doesn't want to be seen as copying Marvel's success, though the All-Star line could be considered a rough lob in the same direction. The intent there appears to be a step back into simplicity.

The problem with the All-Star line is that it is intended to be 'the classic characters as you know them'. That means no experimentation ala the Ultimate line, no updating them for the modern world, no fresh new takes. My hope is that maybe the All-Star line is supposed to be for the fans who want the comfortable, never changing characters you know and love, to give DC more freedom to play around with their DCU, rebooting in a more ultimatey way...but who the hell knows.

Yeah, the All Stars are fun, but I'd really, really like to see a ground-up rebuilding of the DC Universe in a modern world.

I'm not a fan of all of the choices in the Marvel Ultimate line, but I love that they take enormous risks with the characters and storylines.

As I said, a proper relaunch is probably the only thing that will get me to buy a Batman or Superman book again.

I totally agree with you MasterWhedon...the Ultimate Line allowed readers like myself to really connect with these classic heroes again. To be able to follow them from the beginning, you just feel a closeness to the characters. With books like Detective Comics and Action Comics...I am literally hundreds of issues behind, which means I have so much continuity that I have not kept up with. This is incredibly hard to overcome.

[Adam Balm]

I know the feeling MW. You might want to check out Wonder Woman then. She's the only one of the big three to have her title relaunched, and it's going to be a ground up re-origining.

[MasterWhedon]

I know the feeling MW. You might want to check out Wonder Woman then. She's the only one of the big three to have her title relaunched, and it's going to be a ground up re-origining.

Ooooow, exciting.

I suppose I should start getting into the lady anyway, what with the writing and directing a movie about her and all.

[Adam Balm]

I thought the post-jumping was bad enough. Now I have to jump back and forth between threads!!


EDIT: Damn jump!

Yup.

[Adam Balm]

Has anybody else here checked out the 52 web site?

Basically it's done up like it's the Daily Planet. An "editorial" was posted today that might be a hint of the what to expect in the new DCU...

"So some of our monsters are missing. Some are gone for good. And I mean for good, not just forever. I won't even berate these misguided morons who are already erecting statues for the departed. These statues may be iconic tributes to them, but to me, they are both a chilling reminder of fallen tyrants, and a comforting reminder that they have passed.

Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are missing. But they should not be missed."

http://www.dccomics.com/sites/52/?action=headlines&i=5821

[Theta]

Has anybody else here checked out the 52 web site?

Basically it's done up like it's the Daily Planet. An "editorial" was posted today that might be a hint of the what to expect in the new DCU...

"So some of our monsters are missing. Some are gone for good. And I mean for good, not just forever. I won't even berate these misguided morons who are already erecting statues for the departed. These statues may be iconic tributes to them, but to me, they are both a chilling reminder of fallen tyrants, and a comforting reminder that they have passed.

Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are missing. But they should not be missed."

http://www.dccomics.com/sites/52/?action=headlines&i=5821

Didn't DC already do this shit with "Kingdom Come?" And before that, "Watchmen?" Isn't Marvel doing it now with "Civil War?"

Oy. I think I'm just going to start reading "Invincible" for my superhero fix.

[Adam Balm]

Has anybody else here checked out the 52 web site?

Basically it's done up like it's the Daily Planet. An "editorial" was posted today that might be a hint of the what to expect in the new DCU...

"So some of our monsters are missing. Some are gone for good. And I mean for good, not just forever. I won't even berate these misguided morons who are already erecting statues for the departed. These statues may be iconic tributes to them, but to me, they are both a chilling reminder of fallen tyrants, and a comforting reminder that they have passed.

Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are missing. But they should not be missed."

http://www.dccomics.com/sites/52/?action=headlines&i=5821

Didn't DC already do this shit with "Kingdom Come?" And before that, "Watchmen?" Isn't Marvel doing it now with "Civil War?"

Round and round we go, my friend.

Right now it's morbid curiosity that keeps me reading (for now at least). In the end, that's really what drives these mega-crossovers. People can't turn away because they wonder if it's all gonna pay off.

[buster00]

I looked at the 52 website. It's kinda clever - click on the "Ask Prof. Expert!" column for a chuckle.

Maybe it's just going to have to come down to this: have Earth Prime Superboy escape in a few years and have him take on everybody yet again. Only this time -- EVERYBODY AND EVERYTHING DIES. Especially Earth Prime Superboy. Then we have a clean slate from which we can work.

Then we finally have an excuse to get crackin' on some decent, well-crafted "Ultimate" type version of the DCU. Sound good?

[Adam Balm]

Maybe it's just going to have to come down to this: have Earth Prime Superboy escape in a few years and have him take on everybody yet again. Only this time -- EVERYBODY AND EVERYTHING DIES. Especially Earth Prime Superboy. Then we have a clean slate from which we can work.

Then we finally have an excuse to get crackin' on some decent, well-crafted "Ultimate" type version of the DCU. Sound good?

Don't torture me with things I can never have!

What really bugs me is that question Whedon asked, "Is this a good jumping on point?" And I started to wonder. When will be a good starting point for new readers, here? With both the Ultimate line and the post-crisis-1 universe, you started at issue #1. You didn't have to know anything in advance. But unlike Crisis-1, where everything was restarted with #1 issues and all their origins were reimagined and retold, we have every series (One Year Later) dealing with a continuing story, the fallout of a complicated story that's been over a year and hundreds of issues in the telling..

Where does a new reader start? The closest thing I can think of as an introduction to the new DCU is the back up features they're doing in 52, telling the new history and origins of everybody.

[Coldfire24]

As a new reader i'm going to tell you that reading DC is like doing a crossword puzzle and knowing one word and having no fucking clue about the rest of it.

[DennisMM]

But unlike Crisis-1, where everything was restarted with #1 issues and all their origins were reimagined and retold, we have every series (One Year Later) dealing with a continuing story, the fallout of a complicated story that's been over a year and hundreds of issues in the telling..

Yes, the post-Crisis on Infinite Earths stories were set on a New Earth (Earth DC, as they called it), but only Superman's and Wonder Woman's lives and books got rebooted (to a new comic starting at #1 for both). He had a new origin, but most of his great adventures and many of his characters were still in continuity.Within a few years, much of the new material shaded imperceptibly into the old. WW was deemed never to have existed pre-1986 and they used "continuity implants" to cover her JLA stories. Batman got an expanded origin which was soon muddled/denied.

COIE did little more than wipe out the many variant Earths that had come to plague the DC universe. The Golden Age heroes existed more or less as they had, but on Earth DC. Except in the case of Superman and Wonder Woman, almost every important pre-Crisis story happened as it had, minus the multiple earths. Characters were created to help with the implants, but twenty years later one can see that it didn't really change all that much.

Zero Hour, on the other hand, was responsible for a complete reboot of the Legion of Superheroes, introduced Jack Knight and the revamped Starman continuity and resulted in the retelling and/or revision of the origins for every DC hero who had an active title. Of the two, I would call it more important.

[TonyWilson]

All this is precisely why I just can't get really really into comics. Superman and Batman are my favourtie Heroes and I want to read about them week in week out but the idea of starting in the middle of something that literally spans several universes is more than daunting....it's...well to a completist like me it feels akin to masochism. It just fucks me right off that I'm not going to be able to really get to know these characters without taking some sort of course.