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Ultimates2 *POSSIBLE SPOILERS*

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:35 am
by JackKnight
Just got done reading it. Wow, the Ultimates got fooked up pretty fast. And the Grand Theft America tag works pretty well. My only real complaint is that it some of it seems like a huge Authority ripoff.

Thoughts, theories, conjectures? Is it going to be the Hulk that bails them out?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:45 pm
by Bill?
it definitely comes off as an Authority rip-off at times. but I guess if anyone can get away with that its Mark Millar.
I have no idea how the Ultimates will get out of the mess. But I suspect it will involve Captain America, Iron Man, Thor and maybe Hank Pym. My hope is those guys escape the carnage, team-up and go free Hawkeye and then start the ass-kicking. I don't think they invovle Hulk since he hasnt been much a part of this storyline and it would sort of come out of left feild. although maybe they'll do it for that very reason. I know Ult. Hulk is getting his own mini soon, so maybe they'll want to bring him back that way.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:54 pm
by JackKnight
They hinted at Hulk's return in the annual. There are pics of the Hulk attacking some bandits in the Himalayas (i think) that Fury and crew are looking at.

If you think about the original lineup of the Avengers, it was Iron Man, Giant Man, Wasp, Thor and the Hulk. Very similar with the crew of heroes who were noticeably absent. They could add Cap in there, although he didn't actually join until later. And in the original series, who was it who brought them together....Loki. I'm kina sensing a pattern.

Also, any idea who all those villains were on the last page? I know the one is Crimson Dynamo. Then there's Loki but who were the rest?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:46 pm
by buster00
One of 'em has to be Abomination.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:25 pm
by Colin
I would like to add that The Authority itself is a ripoff of Miracleman.

So why bother pointing out unoriginality?

I was quite impressed with #9. I did not see it (Re: Traitor's ID) coming.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:30 pm
by zombieslayer
I really dug this one too- it got me flipping through the pages quick, before they got too sticky. heh.
I was trying to figure out how they'd get outta this one too, thinking the big return of the hulk, or maybe this is where the vision will come in? I haven't kept up with her story, though...

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:59 pm
by JackKnight
It's gotta be a heavy hitter and I don't see the vision as anything more than a redux of the old Recorder android that followed Hercules around during his series.

As for the comment about unoriginality, I was speaking specifically about the scene where the swarm of flying guys show up and start tearing stuff up. Not to mention when you see one of them fly right through one of the giant men. Something Apollo did early in that series.

Yes, Authority does rip off some of the concepts of Miracleman, no doubt, but I think it also forged some of it's own pretty cool ideas of its own. I'm not seeing that same sort of creativity and originality in Ultimates.

Just my two cents.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:04 pm
by Shane
It is not going for origionality as much as re-telling older stories better.

Look at the first arc fighting Hulk, that's what the Avengers origionaly did.

I think the concept is what if the old stuff was done in a modern style.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:09 pm
by JackKnight
Yeah, but the Hulk arc in the original series had Freddie Prinze Jr in it. I'm sorry but if you feel the need to include FP Jr, then your premise is doomed right from the git-go

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:34 pm
by Adam Balm
I don't remember being this floored by a single issue of a comic, since maybe Death of Superman. (Yes, I was a kid at the time and really thought it was his death.)

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:17 pm
by Colin
JackKnight wrote:
Yes, Authority does rip off some of the concepts of Miracleman, no doubt, but I think it also forged some of it's own pretty cool ideas of its own. I'm not seeing that same sort of creativity and originality in Ultimates.

Just my two cents.


Jack, Jack...you're glib.

Have you even read Miracleman? Do you even know what it is?

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:24 pm
by Adam Balm
Kimota is a street drug now. I've done the research.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:35 pm
by buster00
That is AWESOME. Gimme some o' that sweet, sweet Kimota, baby!

And zombieslayer, The Vision won't be in this storyline. She'll be in the Gah-Lak-Tus mess in Ultimate Extinction.

But who are the rest o' those GODDAMN FOREINGERS* on the back page of #9? Someone on some other board was trying to speculate that this "Colonel" person was going to be Ultimate Red Skull. I LOL'ed in his face...but I didn't have a better answer, either.

*sarcasm intended

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:09 pm
by DennisMM
Did you know that kids are out there, wearing chains with little Johnny Bates figures on them? And inside those Johnny Bates figures? Do you know what's inside those little Johnny Bates figures?

Kimota, that's what! Or poppers! I heard both versions.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:32 am
by zombieslayer
I'm really glad I'm not the only one having trouble figuring who the anti-america squad at the end was made up of... I was a little concerned I was losing touch with my inner comic geek, but it seems everyone else is having trouble too...
Red Skull- ya think? He reminded me of Cap's evil russian clone from Ult Nightmare at first, personally...

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:30 am
by JackKnight
Colin, Colin, Colin....I may be glib but I'm not dumb. Nor am I uninformed about some of the finer moments of comics history. I may not be quite at the "Watcher" level of Dennis, but I have comics dating back thirty years. In that collection, I have the full run of Miracleman, so yes I do know what I'm talking about.

The scene where Johnny Bates basically destroys an entire town (can't remember if it was London...but I think it was) was incredible. Although the scene where he's getting attacked in the bathroom and transforms with a big burst of energy was pretty cool too. Anyway, point being, I do know what I'm talking about so the next time you want to try to call bs on me or claim I'm talking out my arse, best make sure you know what you're talking about.

Getting back to the original point of the thread (such as it is), I think it'll be pretty interesting getting a read on who all those bad guys are. I think we're all in agreement on The Abomination and the Crimson Dynamo but I haven't a clue on the rest. Should be fun figuring out who they all are next issue.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:43 am
by DennisMM
I think I need to go back and take another look. When I read the story, all I cared about was that powerful, nasty SOBs were gathered. Dynamo and Abomination seem pretty clear.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:15 pm
by JackKnight
The speedster could be that french villain with the wind powers. I can't remember his name off the top of my head. Whirlwind doesn't sound right. He last appeared in the regular marvel U in Thunderbolts. Man, talk about a brain cramp.

So would the guy with Thor's hammer be the guy from the old Soviet SuperSoldiers? Was it Hammer and Sickle? Boy my memory sucks today.

The chick with the horns reminds me alot of the Engineer. Maybe she's the old Iron Man villain Madame Masque? Or could she be the Ultimate version of Viper?

The guy in the green outfit has a black diamond on his chest. Could he be Darkstar from the SSS? The outfit also makes an X on his chest. Possibly a rogue mutant? Rictor or one of those guys? Ah the joy of sheer speculation.. ;-)

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:34 pm
by Colin
JackKnight wrote:Colin, Colin, Colin....I may be glib but I'm not dumb. Nor am I uninformed about some of the finer moments of comics history. I may not be quite at the "Watcher" level of Dennis, but I have comics dating back thirty years. In that collection, I have the full run of Miracleman, so yes I do know what I'm talking about.

The scene where Johnny Bates basically destroys an entire town (can't remember if it was London...but I think it was) was incredible. Although the scene where he's getting attacked in the bathroom and transforms with a big burst of energy was pretty cool too. Anyway, point being, I do know what I'm talking about so the next time you want to try to call bs on me or claim I'm talking out my arse, best make sure you know what you're talking about.


I am interested in what ideas you found 'pretty cool' in The Authority. The Superman/Batman duo? The invasion from a parallel dimension? Fighting "God"?

I'm also interested in how you felt about Neil Gaiman's run. Better than Moore's? I'm not calling BS, I'm just thinking, if you've read all of Miracleman and not just gleaning the highlights from reading Wizard magazine, how you think any idea displayed in Authority could compete. Artwork aside, of course.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:34 pm
by buster00
There was a frequent Avengers foe named Whirlwind, Jack...he could be in there.

Hammer & sickle guy = Vanguard?

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:50 pm
by DennisMM
Early on, The Authority was good old fashioned fun. Perhaps that was what Jack was trying to convey. I'll leave it to him/her to expand.

The Authority's original, anarchistic position was very different from the benign (?) dictatorship of Miracleman, but Millar and other writers moved the team in that direction. Ellis has attacked the later stories for a number of reasons, this among them. He also was not pleased with Millar's focus on the Apollo/Midnighter relationship. He'd have preferred it to remain in the background, as it had been.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:01 pm
by Colin
DennisMM wrote:Early one, The Authority was good old fashioned fun. Perhaps that was what Jack was trying to convey. I'll leave it to him/her to expand.

The Authority's original, anarchistic position was very different from the benign (?) dictatorship of Miracleman, but Millar and other writers moved the team in that direction. Ellis has attacked the later stories for a number of reasons, this among them. He also was not pleased with Millar's focus on the Apollo/Midnighter relationship. He'd have preferred it to remain in the background, as it had been.


It was indeed. "Don't piss us off." Made me laugh out loud the first time I read it. He wasn't really trying to say anything, he was just having fun exaggerating certain concepts about capes, seeing how far he could take it and get away with it, which is probably why he didn't like where the other writers took the team, trying to deconstruct the characters and whatnot. There was nothing to them, really. Who were Midnighter and Apollo before they got their enhancements? Nobodies. Engineer was a girl who traded her blood for liquid machinery. Why? If Ellis cared he would have answered that. I think he just liked everything better as an in-joke, that's all.

But then again..."A finer world is a small thing to ask."

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:05 pm
by Adam Balm
Ellis's Authority run definitely reads better if you don't take it seriously.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:11 pm
by DennisMM
Das fün!

Most Ellis reads better if you don't take it too seriously. I think he enjoys writing big-ass, over-the-top material. Usually it's better than his "serious" work. Choosing within Global Frequency I'll take "The Run" any day over "Angel."

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:13 pm
by Colin
The one illustrated by Jon J. Muth, was that "Angel"? My favourite one, incidentally.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:17 pm
by Adam Balm
See, that's my problem is with Ellis's whole public persona and (present company excluded) his fanbase which are both overly serious, self-aware, self-important, and pretentious. But most anarchists/punks piss me off in the same way. I have no doubt that if I had no idea who Ellis was, I'd be FAR more entertained by his work. As the man knows how to make a fun read. But I have trouble getting past 'Ellis the man'...

Guess that's my own problem, not his.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:20 pm
by DennisMM
Colin wrote:The one illustrated by Jon J. Muth, was that "Angel"? My favourite one, incidentally.


Yes. I enjoyed it, and the art was beautiful, but I found it very dry. YMMV, of course.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:23 pm
by DennisMM
Adam Balm wrote:See, that's my problem is with Ellis's whole public persona and (present company excluded) his fanbase which are both overly serious, self-aware, slef-important, and pretentious. But most anarchists/punks piss me off in the same way. I have no doubt that if I had no idea who Ellis was, I'd be FAR more entertained by his work. As the man knows how to make a fun read. But I have trouble getting past 'Ellis the man'...

Guess that's my own problem, not his.


It's interesting, if you get BAD SIGNAL, that some of the time he's nattering on about politics and society and the nature of fandom. Other days he just talks about how tired he is and how much Red Bull and whiskey he needs. And other columns read as if he has had far too much whiskey and Red Bull. Those can be most entertaining.

I think it must be hard to lighten up when you're this (and was last) year's model. Because of that I tend to cut him some slack.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:25 pm
by Adam Balm
DennisMM wrote:
I think it must be hard to lighten up when you're this (and was last) year's model. Because of that I tend to cut him some slack.


Can you elaborate? Not sure what you mean exactly.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:13 pm
by DennisMM
For years now, he's been a "hot" writer, not necessarily because he's writing a hot book but because he retains the patina of his highly regarded earlier work. He's had The Authority, Global Frequency, Planetary and especially Transmetropolitan, all of which were considered (at that point in the fandom zeitgeist), edgy and witty and funny and different (and some would say brilliant).

He continues to work in a number of different genres, "creates" his own publishing style with the Apparat one-shots and puts himself out in front of everyone, publicizing himself like an actor or rock star. He's a constant, strong signal on the comics radar, even if there's lots of noise. For a while his bad health was semi-famous.

Of late he seems somewhat desperate -- planning new projects, reworking his web presence, suffering more ill health -- and reporting on it all via BAD SIGNAL and more standard comics news venues. I think that he is hot partly because he works at being hot, but that being hot is such a strain on him that he goes over the top in dealing with it.

It's as if he can't help himself, as if he might have some compulsion that drives him. As someone with mental illness, I tend to forgive this sort of thing, to a degree.

Were he a young man, working in today's comics business, I think Stan Lee might seem a bit like Ellis.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:14 pm
by DennisMM
Your work on the photo is nice. Is the original hand-tinted, or is that you?

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:38 pm
by JackKnight
Colin, I hear what you're saying, but honestly I thought the earlier run of Miracleman was the more interesting. When he first realized who he was and when he was captured by the doctor. I'm sorry, I'm totally blanking on names today. Anyway, once you got through the Johnny Bates run and into the benign dictatorship with Miraclewoman it was definitely everything that the authority took.

I guess where I feel like the difference is that with Miracleman, you never had the sense that he could fail or be deposed/defeated. And the world truly was a better place with all of the inventions/social engineering. I did think it was pretty cool that the only person MM seemed to fear was his own daughter Winter.

Anyway, I felt like the Authority was a bunch of ordinary schmucks w/powers trying to run the show. It kinda felt like when you're sitting in a bar and talking politics and you say stuff like, "Shit they should make me president...i could do a better job than that guy." I never really felt like it was that pretentious. I just enjoy the story. I'd say my favorite story arc was probably the attack by Gamora on the world. I thought that was well handled and the art was excellent. My second fave would be the birth of Jenny Quantum and the attack by all of the superppl trying to kill her.

I liked Global Frequency quite a bit but I did feel it took itself a bit too seriously at times. I was curious to see how a tv series made from it would look but I guess it's just not to be.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:13 am
by buster00
Re: The Issue #9 Bad Guys -- POSSIBLE SPOILER



I've been pokin' around the Marvel files looking for Russian villains who fit the descriptions of the Ultimates' new pals...

I think we might have a match in this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Guardian

Here's Viper's Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viper_%28comics%29

I was more of a DC kid than a Marvel kid; I'm not all that versed in the Soviet Super Soldiers. Seems like a good place to look, though...

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:19 am
by buster00
ADDENDUM TO ABOVE POST

The woman in the face masque probably ain't Viper.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:37 pm
by TheSumOfGod
The main bad guy? With the twin-blade lightsaber? Look at his suit. Doesn't that red and black v-stripe pattern remind you of something? What about that big "W" on his chest? It's Ultimate WONDER MAN, you fools!

Or not. ;)

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:57 pm
by buster00
TheSumOfGod wrote:Doesn't that red and black v-stripe pattern remind you of something? What about that big "W" on his chest? It's Ultimate WONDER MAN, you fools!

Or not. ;)


Say, when ARE they gonna get Wonder Man involved in the Ultimate universe? Just a matter of time I guess...

UPDATE TO MY ABOVE BULLSHIT: Wikipedia's "Ultimates" entry seems to have the "Who Are Those Anti-Ultimates" mystery wrapped in a pretty package...I'll spare you the link; you're smart enough to know how to use Wikipedia and look up "Ultimates"....

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:48 pm
by Colin
If anyone created an Ultimate Wonder Man they'd deserve to be shot in the kneecaps.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:58 pm
by Adam Balm
But only with tranquilizer darts. We're not barbarians...

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:00 pm
by buster00
Colin wrote:If anyone created an Ultimate Wonder Man they'd deserve to be shot in the kneecaps.


It'll be your old pal Ellis, Colin...ya just know it....

Or have you already finally shot him?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:06 pm
by Colin
I didn't say I would...I just said they should.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:01 pm
by DennisMM
I'll bite. Why? I rather liked Wonder Man when he came back as a cloud of energy.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:55 am
by Colin
I find it funny Scarlet Witch could fuck clouds of energy. Or that clouds of energy had sex drives.

She could manipulate reality, though, right?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:45 am
by buster00
Colin wrote:I find it funny Scarlet Witch could fuck clouds of energy. Or that clouds of energy had sex drives.

She could manipulate reality, though, right?


HAHAHAHA!!

And mind you, I didn't say they should bring in Wonder Man, either...just noting that it's kind of inevitable...

I'm looking forward to Ultimate Black Panther a lot more. That is, presuming they do him right (and he IS coming soon).

And Ultimate Red Skull has GOT to be the rill dill when they DO get around to bringing him in; you know this.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:44 pm
by Keepcoolbutcare
Adam Balm wrote:See, that's my problem is with Ellis's whole public persona and (present company excluded) his fanbase which are both overly serious, self-aware, self-important, and pretentious. But most anarchists/punks piss me off in the same way. I have no doubt that if I had no idea who Ellis was, I'd be FAR more entertained by his work. As the man knows how to make a fun read. But I have trouble getting past 'Ellis the man'...


:P

that's exactly how I feel about Bertrand Russell!

well, 'cept that anarachist/punk bit.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:26 pm
by TheSumOfGod
GODDAMMIT! Ultimates 2 issue 10 has been delayed AGAIN! This time they say that it's only coming out MARCH 1st! :pissed off:

PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:34 pm
by TheSumOfGod
At this rate, issue 12 will only be out in September! :(

PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:35 pm
by Adam Balm
Well, they picked one helluva cliffhanger to do it on.

Oh, and you have the single coolest name I've ever seen on a message board.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:37 pm
by TheSumOfGod
Adam Balm wrote:Well, they picked one helluva cliffhanger to do it on.

Oh, and you have the single coolest name I've ever seen on a message board.


I have the same name on the Superhero Hype boards, the only reason I'm posting here right now is because Superhero Hype is F***ING SLOOOOW at the moment!

PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:45 pm
by DennisMM
Real kind of you there, TSOG. Glad to have you as your destination of desperation. lol.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:47 pm
by TheSumOfGod
Question: Why is my signature not showing up?