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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:53 pm
by DennisMM
MasterWhedon wrote:
DennisMM wrote:Not bloody likely. Maybe Stark is a super-villain and is warping minds.

If they fold back onto themselves with some bullshit like Stark being evil and manipulating this whole thing--which I genuinely don't believe--it will be the cop out to end all cop outs.

This new direction is too strong a concept to leave it as just a tease.


Stark and mind-control have some history. He used a mind-control device created by Mentallo to mind-warp THE WHOLE FUCKING PLANET into forgetting his secret ID, because he thought too many people (villains, inconvenient heroes, gov't types) were aware of who he was.

He also was once mind-controlled by Kang and betrayed the team, killing the second Yellowjacket and one of the Inhumans. This was a long-term, behind-the-scenes storyline which ended with Tony's rebellion against Kang and Tony's death.

Yeah. He died. They put his body in cryo, but they couldn't bring him back. Somehow they plucked a teenage Tony from an alternate timeline (?memory is bad on this). He joined the team as a probie while he went to college. When the heroes were shoved into Franklin Richards's pocket universe during Heroes Reborn, Tony appeared as an adult. When the Heroes returned to the MU, Tony remained an adult.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:03 pm
by MasterWhedon
DennisMM wrote:Stark and mind-control have some history. He used a mind-control device created by Mentallo to mind-warp THE WHOLE FUCKING PLANET into forgetting his secret ID, because he thought too many people (villains, inconvenient heroes, gov't types) were aware of who he was.

He also was once mind-controlled by Kang and betrayed the team, killing the second Yellowjacket and one of the Inhumans. This was a long-term, behind-the-scenes storyline which ended with Tony's rebellion against Kang and Tony's death.

Yeah. He died. They put his body in cryo, but they couldn't bring him back. Somehow they plucked a teenage Tony from an alternate timeline (?memory is bad on this). He joined the team as a probie while he went to college. When the heroes were shoved into Franklin Richards's pocket universe during Heroes Reborn, Tony appeared as an adult. When the Heroes returned to the MU, Tony remained an adult.

That is a bunch of malarkey right there. Who the hell writes this stuff?

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:03 pm
by Nordling
I've been saying this for years. Comic companies need to change the way they do business with writers. Instead of issue contracts, they should sign writers for a minimum of 3 years on an issue line. Fuck guest writers who fuck up continuity. They sign on the line that is dotted, and they STAY THERE.

In return, the writers can play. And by play I mean genuinely change things. Kill Captain America. Give Xavier a painful brain tumor that all mutants can feel. Iron Man's suit becomes self-aware and causes Stark to destroy it and start from scratch. CHANGE THINGS. And the second part of the contract is once the writer leaves, the next writer is signed for the same length of time and can either keep continuity, or change things again in a plausible manner and that DOESN'T CHANGE HISTORY OR CONTINUITY.

That's a big reason why I got out of comics. Nothing really changed. And publishers were too afraid to lose the audience, not realizing, "Hey, we're Marvel, where the fuck are they going to go if they like these characters? And the ones that do leave will be replaced by younger readers." Comics will be around as long as there is paper and ink; publishers shouldn't be afraid to do what's necessary to keep the story kicking.

Okay, rant over.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:04 pm
by The Ginger Man
Ok....the MAJOR SPOILER from CW #2 is definetly interesting and could open up some great stories for the character. And Marvel has certainly sucked me back in with the idea (me being a huge, lifelong Spidey fan). But whether or not this is a great idea, the current batch of writers working on the character don't inspire with anticipation. Hell, they're the writers that brought me back in then pushed me away. I JUST DON'T HAVE FAITH! Can the interesting ideas being presented in Civil War be taken back to the "core books" and remain interesting? Or will they just fade out with new creative teams as Marvel comics often do.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:07 pm
by Lord Voldemoo
MasterWhedon wrote:
Fried Gold wrote:I thought Spider-Man had some sort of Iron Man suit now? What happened to that?

He does. He wore it in Civil War #1 (and in his ongoing series), but the cover of issue #2 leads one to believe his conflict over chosing sides leads him to change back to his old costume.


REALLY BIG SPOILERS:























In Amazing Spiderman #535 Peter struggles over his decision about how to react to the Civil War. This is the lead-in to the press conference. I haven't read Civil War 2 yet, but the reason for him wearing the old outfit in AS is that Mary Jane and Aunt May suggest that wearing the old outfit at the press conference will be less confusing to the public and have more of an impact. I don't think its a permanent switch back to the old outfit.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:11 pm
by Nordling
The new outfit is ridiculous.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:12 pm
by DennisMM
Nordling wrote: Iron Man's suit becomes self-aware and causes Stark to destroy it and start from scratch.


Kurt Busiek did it nearly ten years ago, in the second year (?) of the LAST IM series. The suit gained sentience and got fried (Stark didn't destroy it). Tony walked away from his life to be less public. He shaved, got glasses (I think), and went to work for a public tech company. They came up with a whole different way of putting the suit together, but it was odd-looking -- units hanging off the body of the suit, not fully painted/dyed, etc. Fortunately the storyline was brief.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:12 pm
by Colin
Nordling, you left comics because nothing changed? Let me guess, you ONLY read Marvel and DC, right?

I don't mind Spider-Man's unmasking. I'll support it until they fuck it up, as you do. To tell you the truth, I started laughing when I read the last page of #2.


MOD EDIT: I shrunk down the SPOILER.--MW

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:12 pm
by MasterWhedon
That makes sense, Voldy.

And Nordling--many quality ideas there. I heartily second.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:17 pm
by Chairman Kaga
Ihhh nice big spoilers there collin

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:23 pm
by Colin
You mean you haven't tuned in to the radio or read the newspaper yet?

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:26 pm
by Chairman Kaga
Colin wrote:You mean you haven't tuned in to the radio or read the newspaper yet?

It was already established in this thread not to spoil it for others.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:42 pm
by Vegeta
You can edit your spoiler post anytime there Colin...

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:48 pm
by DennisMM
MasterWhedon wrote:
DennisMM wrote:Stark and mind-control have some history. He used a mind-control device created by Mentallo to mind-warp THE WHOLE FUCKING PLANET into forgetting his secret ID, because he thought too many people (villains, inconvenient heroes, gov't types) were aware of who he was.

He also was once mind-controlled by Kang and betrayed the team, killing the second Yellowjacket and one of the Inhumans. This was a long-term, behind-the-scenes storyline which ended with Tony's rebellion against Kang and Tony's death.

Yeah. He died. They put his body in cryo, but they couldn't bring him back. Somehow they plucked a teenage Tony from an alternate timeline (?memory is bad on this). He joined the team as a probie while he went to college. When the heroes were shoved into Franklin Richards's pocket universe during Heroes Reborn, Tony appeared as an adult. When the Heroes returned to the MU, Tony remained an adult.

That is a bunch of malarkey right there. Who the hell writes this stuff?


I'm pretty sure Bob Harras wrote "The Crossing," with Tony's death and young Tony being brought to the MU present from his timeline. Can't find who wrote the one-shot. That was Marvel in the '90s. And, hey, they changed things, just not the way people wanted!

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:49 pm
by cap
Just got done reading CW #2 and I am really enjoying the series.

I will not include any spoilage, but trying to figure where it may go, who ends up on whose side, and who will cross lines is going to be fun to watch (read).

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:39 pm
by Petri
MATT DRUDGE YOU gentleman!

Do not visit the drudge report front page unless you want to see the massive spoiler of issue #2 layed out right there in front of God and everybody.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:53 pm
by MasterWhedon
CIVIL WAR #2 SPOILERS!!!

I got Civil War #2 last night and very much loved it. I said it with issue one and I'll say it again here: this whole thing feels epic. I love the small glimpses into superhero lives and superhero feats, all while discussing this larger issue that's overtaking them. You feel momentum, you feel the unease. You feel it's something that will effect the ENTIRE Marvel U, not just those in the given issue. Beautiful stuff.

Joe Q had mentioned the possibility of a political split within a family before, and I can't help but wonder if they're working that between Sue and Reed. It might just be the old "everyone ignores Sue" routine again, but I can't help but think there's more subtext there, especially given her line at the end: "Tony, I hope you know what you're doing."

LOVED Spider-Man outing himself. I think that bit was about as perfectly written and drawn as I've ever seen, all the way down to JJ collapsing behind his desk.

I like how they're setting up Cap's resistance, that there might be these twenty-three bases around the world they can operate from. I like that the introduction of characters on either side is simple, understated. Cable just pops up without mention of "Oh, Cable's on our side now!"

Here's hoping the series maintains this high caliber. I'm duly impressed.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:25 pm
by Hollywood_Bob
Has anyone read the new Thunderboolts tie in yet? While the book itself is rather bland it did begin to bring out some questions regarding what might happen to the "super-villans" now that there is a definate line drawn in the sand between the heros. makes me curious as to what some of the bigger Villans with try and do, esp the more intelegent of the bunch.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:33 pm
by buster00
SPOILER!!








Issue #2 = Worth twenty times the cover price, just to see J. Jonah's pratfall.

OUTSTANDING story so far; art, writing, concept, all of it.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:37 pm
by Colin
Here be the cover to #5.

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/CivilWar/CIVWAR005_cov_100.jpg

I love it. Totally reminds me of the McFarlane days (particularly Peter's face and left arm).

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:40 pm
by Keepcoolbutcare
badass.

I want that McNiven clip!

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:58 pm
by The Ginger Man
1st) Can we label this thread with SPOILER since the series is now out and we're talking about it on a regular basis?

2nd) SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER


Love the cover art for #5. Is this meant to tie into Spidey revealing his identity? Now the villains are hunting him down? If so...it probably would have been better if 2 of the 3 villains on the cover didn't already know that Peter was Spider-Man.

Also, Venom looks really stupid with eyes.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:04 pm
by MasterWhedon
The Ginger Man wrote:Also, Venom looks really stupid with eyes.

But there's something reflected in his eye. I think--I may be wrong--that it's Venom.

Also, Newsarama has their Civil War Room #2 Q&A up HERE with some really nice commentary.

Oh, and I'm still with Iron Man, even moreso than after the first issue.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:18 pm
by The Ginger Man
MasterWhedon wrote:
The Ginger Man wrote:Also, Venom looks really stupid with eyes.

But there's something reflected in his eye. I think--I may be wrong--that it's Venom.

Also, Newsarama has their Civil War Room #2 Q&A up HERE with some really nice commentary.

Oh, and I'm still with Iron Man, even moreso than after the first issue.


Yeah, I'm kinda with Stark as well. If only b/c Cap's actions in Issue 1 seemed so ...uh, rash?

"You want me, the ultimate government-sanctioned superhero, to register with the government and arrest those who don't?"

"Well yeah...when the law passes in a few weeks."

"FUCK YOU, IT'S ON!!!!"


I just don't buy Cap leading the resistance. It screams of "wouldn't it be cool if Captain America was fighting America?!?!?!" However, Stark's plan has it's own flaws as well. Superheros becoming government workers is a great little idea, but forcing each hero to publicly unmask and declare his identity to the public....that's a little much. Why not just declare their identities with S.H.I.E.L.D? Why does a janitor in Iowa need to know that Spider-Man is Peter Parker? I don't know whether or not Michael Owen of Miami, Florida owns an assault rifle, whether he has a license or not, b/c it's not necessary to the process. Even the government would know publicly outing every superhuman in the country would be a bad idea.

Both this, and Cap's resistance, just feel like forced drama.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:19 pm
by The Ginger Man
MasterWhedon wrote:
The Ginger Man wrote:Also, Venom looks really stupid with eyes.

But there's something reflected in his eye. I think--I may be wrong--that it's Venom


You. Suck.














It's obviously Electro.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:22 pm
by MasterWhedon
Ginger, in that article I linked, Tom Brevoort says the heroes would NOT have to declare their secret identites publicly, only to SHIELD. Spider-Man did it because if he was going to be the one of the point men for Registration, he shouldn't appear to be hiding anything.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:25 pm
by The Ginger Man
MasterWhedon wrote:Ginger, in that article I linked, Tom Brevoort says the heroes would NOT have to declare their secret identites publicly, only to SHIELD. Spider-Man did it because if he was going to be the one of the point men for Registration, he shouldn't appear to be hiding anything.


OK. I hadn't read the article yet. That makes more sense and should be mentioned (or made more apparent) in the comic.

Do you agree with me on the Cap thing?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:26 pm
by Vegeta
I am going to make a prediction: Aunt May and/or Mary Jane are gonna get murdered during Civil War.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:30 pm
by MasterWhedon
The Ginger Man wrote:Do you agree with me on the Cap thing?

I see your point, but I don't personally feel it's forced conflict.

Cap's always been about the nobility of the job, so I buy him at least being hesitant about registration. I think it was only because Hill forced him into the fight or die scenario in issue one that he rushed into the position he's in.

I buy it more as "Let's think this through" than "Fuck America!"

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:36 pm
by Keepcoolbutcare
The Ginger Man wrote:Even the government would know publicly outing every superhuman in the country would be a bad idea.


interesting can of worms here.

on the one hand we've got Megan's Law.

on the other is the confidentiality of those who work in the CIA and such.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:44 pm
by The Ginger Man
MasterWhedon wrote:
The Ginger Man wrote:Do you agree with me on the Cap thing?

I see your point, but I don't personally feel it's forced conflict.

Cap's always been about the nobility of the job, so I buy him at least being hesitant about registration. I think it was only because Hill forced him into the fight or die scenario in issue one that he rushed into the position he's in.

I buy it more as "Let's think this through" than "Fuck America!"


True, Hill forced him into the fight...but that felt forced too, b/c the law was still weeks away from being passed. If the whole situation had literally been moved like 5 pages later, after the law was signed, I would have bought it. Cap believes in America and Democracy. A problem like this comes up, I don't see him immediatly going underground and leading a resistance. I see him attempting to open a public dialogue in the weeks before the bill becomes law.

And I'm a little off on Reed Richards backing Tony Stark so strongly. Just a few years ago, Reed ignored the UN and basically declared himself (and the FF) as leaders of Latveria in order to keep peace. Yet now he's all about government control?

This leads to my theory about Tony's "real" plan. He wants superheros to become more legitamate, become part of the government, b/c he wants them to become the government. Not in a "take over the world" sorta way, but in an attempt to create a better world. Which of course won't work b/c there would be no drama in it.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:54 pm
by MasterWhedon
The Ginger Man wrote:True, Hill forced him into the fight...but that felt forced too, b/c the law was still weeks away from being passed. If the whole situation had literally been moved like 5 pages later, after the law was signed, I would have bought it. Cap believes in America and Democracy. A problem like this comes up, I don't see him immediatly going underground and leading a resistance. I see him attempting to open a public dialogue in the weeks before the bill becomes law.

And I'm a little off on Reed Richards backing Tony Stark so strongly. Just a few years ago, Reed ignored the UN and basically declared himself (and the FF) as leaders of Latveria in order to keep peace. Yet now he's all about government control?

This leads to my theory about Tony's "real" plan. He wants superheros to become more legitamate, become part of the government, b/c he wants them to become the government. Not in a "take over the world" sorta way, but in an attempt to create a better world. Which of course won't work b/c there would be no drama in it.

I'm with The Ginger Man. And I'm also with Tony Stark taking over the government.

ANAKIN: We need a system where the politicians sit down and
discuss the problem, agree what's in the best interests of
all the people, and then do it.

PADMÉ: That is exactly what we do. The trouble is that
people don't always agree. In fact, they hardly ever do.

ANAKIN: Then they should be made to.

PADMÉ: By whom? Who's going to make them?

ANAKIN: I don't know. Someone.

PADMÉ: You?

ANAKIN: Of course not me.

PADMÉ: But someone.

ANAKIN: Someone wise.

PADMÉ: That sounds an awful lot like a dictatorship to me.

A mischievous little grin creeps across his face.

ANAKIN: Well, if it works...

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:59 pm
by The Ginger Man
MasterWhedon wrote:I'm with The Ginger Man.


Good choice. You're either with The Ginger, or against The Ginger.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:59 pm
by Chairman Kaga
The Ginger Man wrote:
MasterWhedon wrote:
The Ginger Man wrote:Also, Venom looks really stupid with eyes.

But there's something reflected in his eye. I think--I may be wrong--that it's Venom


You. Suck.


I always thought Venom's head shape should contour more to Eddie's face. Like if you were close you could see Eddie's eyes through the white part of the head...Sorta like looking though a membrane.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:01 pm
by DennisMM
Captain America's position is very much in keeping with his previous actions, even if his manner of refusal was extreme. Twenty years ago, a government panel called Cap before them and informed him that, as a federal employee, he would have to take orders from them. His adventuring with the Avengers was to be no more than a sideline; most of his work would be for the government.

Cap quit. He took off the suit, dropped the shield and walked away. The government appointed another Captain America and Steve Rogers took on the identity of The Captain, wearing a black-white-and-red costume and carrying an inferior shield. A year and a half later, after defeating his semi-deranged replacement, Rogers returned to duty but as a freelance agent.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:03 pm
by The Ginger Man
Chairman Kaga wrote:
The Ginger Man wrote:
MasterWhedon wrote:
The Ginger Man wrote:Also, Venom looks really stupid with eyes.

But there's something reflected in his eye. I think--I may be wrong--that it's Venom


You. Suck.


I always thought Venom's head shape should contour more to Eddie's face. Like if you were close you could see Eddie's eyes through the white part of the head...Sorta like looking though a membrane.


Well Eddie Brock is no longer Venom. Brock is dying of cancer so he sold the symbiote to the highest bidder...who happened to be The Scorpion. So....yeah......

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:05 pm
by MasterWhedon
Has Captain America always been a paid government employee? I know he was a soldier in WWII, but has the man been getting paid ever since being thawed out?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:07 pm
by MasterWhedon
The Ginger Man wrote:Well Eddie Brock is no longer Venom. Brock is dying of cancer so he sold the symbiote to the highest bidder...who happened to be The Scorpion. So....yeah......

I was unaware of that. Me likes.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:08 pm
by The Ginger Man
MasterWhedon wrote:Has Captain America always been a paid government employee? I know he was a soldier in WWII, but has the man been getting paid ever since being thawed out?


Except for his stint as The Captain...I would assume so.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:10 pm
by The Ginger Man
MasterWhedon wrote:
The Ginger Man wrote:Well Eddie Brock is no longer Venom. Brock is dying of cancer so he sold the symbiote to the highest bidder...who happened to be The Scorpion. So....yeah......

I was unaware of that. Me likes.


Yeah...but I doubt it'll last much longer. Need Eddie Brock back in the suit for Spidey 3. Money, money, money!

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:21 pm
by Chairman Kaga
Wow that seems awful....The Symbiote just let itself be sold.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:34 pm
by The Ginger Man
Chairman Kaga wrote:Wow that seems awful....The Symbiote just let itself be sold.


Ok. Quick update on the Venom thing, then threadjack will be over. Just researched the Venom selling thing and here's what really happened.

Brock got cancer and bonded permanantly with the symbiote to survive. But then Brock found Jesus and sold the symbiote to a crime boss for shitloads of money (which he intended to give to charity upon his death). But the symbiote didn't like the crime boss and abandoned him during a mid-air jump, killing the crime boss. Brock finds out about this, gets all guilty, and slits his wrists in an alley (though he doesn't die). The symbiote then finds/bonds with The Scorpion (though the Scorpion isn't wearing his scorpion suit, so it's not Venom with a tail) and this new Venom (Venom III) creates The Sinister Twelve. No explanation on why the symbiote would let itself be sold.

Suck.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:41 pm
by Keepcoolbutcare
The Ginger Man wrote:No explanation on why the symbiote would let itself be sold.


it was down on her luck and needed the money...

The Ginger Man wrote:Suck.


that's what he said...

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:44 pm
by DennisMM
The Ginger Man wrote:
MasterWhedon wrote:Has Captain America always been a paid government employee? I know he was a soldier in WWII, but has the man been getting paid ever since being thawed out?


Except for his stint as The Captain...I would assume so.


He wasn't considered a government employee, even though he worked with the government. He didn't draw pay for most of his time as Captain America. He worked for a living for years at a time, as writers tried to give him a personal life. He was a cop, a commercial artist and a teacher I think. Much of the time, though, he seemed to live on his Avengers stipend.

I don't remember him being a government employee, more an honorary member of the military or probably military reserve. In those days, draftees could be recalled for service as needed. Rogers was a volunteer, but I think they were in the same boat.

Just before Rogers quit in '87, the government tallied up his back pay for the period he was in suspended animation, plus the compounded interest, and cut him a massive check. This caught the attention of the panel that called him on the carpet -- if he was paid by the government, he must be an employee, etc., etc. And so it goes. Or went.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:49 pm
by MasterWhedon
SPOILERS

I just remembered one of the things that puzzled me when reading: What's the deal with Patriot? Last I remember in New Avengers, he'd given up his MGH-derived powers. How come he's suddenly bulletproof and can jump the length of a football field?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:21 pm
by Pudie
So I casually read comics here and there, never really followed an arc not already in graphic novel form, but I've reas Civial War and a few up the lead ups and tie ins....and it's fucking awesome. Except She-Hulk. That one sucked. But I love how Civil War has a bunch of mements from the other comics, but from a different perspective.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:24 pm
by DennisMM
MasterWhedon wrote:SPOILERS

I just remembered one of the things that puzzled me when reading: What's the deal with Patriot? Last I remember in New Avengers, he'd given up his MGH-derived powers. How come he's suddenly bulletproof and can jump the length of a football field?


Can you say, "bad editing"?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:16 pm
by JackKnight
I wondered that too. I thought maybe it was actually the Hulking, but I later saw him being carted off so I just don't know. Dennis' answer makes the most sense.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:18 pm
by MasterWhedon
Allan Heinberg might not be happy about it, but it made for one hell of a moment. I prefer New Patriot.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:24 pm
by Hollywood_Bob
Well...I believe now that all that has happened in CW doesn't really matter all that much...why you ask? Because I believe the Hulk is going to come back and just straight wipe his ass with whoever is left for shipping out to Tatooine with no water.