CIVIL WAR--NEW MASSIVE SPOILERS- BEWARE!!!!!!

Graphic novels. Weekly rags. The @$$holes.

Whose side are you on?

Iron Man
13
14%
Captain America
64
69%
undecided
16
17%
 
Total votes : 93

Postby ONeillSG1 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:52 pm

The Ginger Man wrote: I was left wondering how Murdoch was getting around so easily.


Here I thought a Green Lantern crossover was going to be revealed and that he was out with Sinestro, a la Emerald Dawn.
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Postby DennisMM on Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:16 pm

Parallels between the American Civil War and Marvel's Civil War? Almost none, except that all civil wars are based in the revolt of a group against a perceived oppressor.

The American Civil War was not really about politics and a denial of personal freedom. The "states' rights" issue was economic. The south had not industrialized as had much of the north; as a result, the south's agricultural economy relied upon mass numbers of field laborers. Land owners could not sell their crops at reasonable prices without that labor being very cheap -- black slave labor and a bit of bonded white labor. The emancipation of slaves spelled economic doom for the cotton and tobacco growers and as a result the region, and the battle within the existing US government eventually became a shooting war.

I'd say Civil War has more in common with the US Revolutionary War. Here we have a powerful central government imposing personally limiting and possibly dangerous law upon those who perceive themselves as oppressed. In the Revolution, the British imposed a variety of taxes that caused hardship for the colonists and required colonists to take British soliders and mercenaries into their homes without compensation. These are economic issues, but the revolution was based more on how these hardships led to a loss of liberty among the colonists, specifically because they were not permitted to argue their case before the crown -- "taxation without representation."

The Civil War grows out of a sentiment not unlike that of the revolution. Those siding with Captain America or pulling out of sight entirely are protesting not only the Registration Act but their exclusion from the process that led to the creation of the Act. We were not shown a range of heroes meeting with the government, testifying before Congress, or offering input in other ways; rather, the government announced what was going on and a handful of big-time heroes discussed it among themselves, with the supporters going straight into the program. No democratic process was involved.

Both the Civil War rebels and the revolutionary fighters use guerilla tactics, both are led by a charismatic but humble man, both cannot survive without a network within the larger citizenry and even within the government they oppose.

Just my thoughts, off the top of my head.
Last edited by DennisMM on Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby MasterWhedon on Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:28 pm

Dennis, I love the top of your head.

And I think you highlight one of the biggest sticking points for me in supporting Stark and the pro-Registration side--that being the way Hill and SHIELD bungled their handling of Captain America and forced the conflict when it (perhaps) could have been avoided.

Deciding on something like registration in a world where superheroes have run relatively unchecked for years requires at lest SOME examination of the issue at hand, and an interview of She-Hulk by Larry King doesn't really suffice. The escalation makes for a much more compelling story in my eyes, but it's one of those things where I think the conflict could've been avoided for at least a little bit longer.
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Postby DennisMM on Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:33 pm

Yah, but there wouldn't be nearly so many fight scenes unless the series ran longer. What am I saying -- there are 60 or so tie in issues!

I still wish the book was told more in the style of Marvels,, with the Frontline material interspersed with the heroes-only stuff. That would have been brilliant but made less money for Marvel.
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Postby The Ginger Man on Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:41 pm

Wait...seriously...is Wheredidigo the only person who agrees with me on the Thor thing? Cause if he is, I've obviously lost touch with things....I may just be done....
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Postby MasterWhedon on Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:44 pm

The Ginger Man wrote:Wait...seriously...is Wheredidigo the only person who agrees with me on the Thor thing? Cause if he is, I've obviously lost touch with things....I may just be done....

When everyone's crazy but you (and the crazy guy), it's generally a sign.

No, I agree with you that it seems a might odd that Thor would be coming down pro-Registration. I'm waiting for issue 4 to give me a reason why. For now though, I'm just enjoying his return.
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Postby DennisMM on Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:46 pm

I agree, Ginger. I just haven't written on that topic. Maybe Thor is being mind-controlled by Stark. (I had to write that; last night I was reading some Busiek/Stern issues of Iron Man in which Stark's mind-wiping the world into forgetting he's Iron Man.)
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Postby The Ginger Man on Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:54 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:
The Ginger Man wrote:Wait...seriously...is Wheredidigo the only person who agrees with me on the Thor thing? Cause if he is, I've obviously lost touch with things....I may just be done....

When everyone's crazy but you (and the crazy guy), it's generally a sign.

No, I agree with you that it seems a might odd that Thor would be coming down pro-Registration. I'm waiting for issue 4 to give me a reason why. For now though, I'm just enjoying his return.


Well it's not so much Thor coming down pro-registration that bugs me (thought it does). It's that it's a stupid way to bring Thor back to the Marvel world. Thor returns after a couple of years just so he can lay the smack down in a political debate he has nothing to do with.

What?

That would have been like Doom returning from hell so he could beat our heroes in a dance contest.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I would soooo buy a comic that was Dr. Doom serving the Marvel Universe in a dance competition.
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Postby The Ginger Man on Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:58 pm

What has me scared/interested the most is Stark's "blueprint for the new century" or whatever he called it. That's where the crux of this story is/should be. B/C it's superheroes deciding THEY are the best people to guide the future.

Fuck! That's heavy stuff! I want to read that!

I'm just afraid it will get a few splash pages of "reveal" and be talked about in scared tones. And then we'll fall back on "wouldn't it be cool if Hero A fought Hero B?!?!?!"
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Postby Brocktune on Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:59 pm

please forgive me for asking a very stupid question, but i have been out of the loop for quite a while.

so why did thor leave in the first place?
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Postby Chairman Kaga on Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:02 pm

The Ginger Man wrote:Now that I think about it, I would soooo buy a comic that was Dr. Doom serving the Marvel Universe in a dance competition.

That's sig worthy.

Brocktune from what I gather Thor was dead but I am way out of the loop.
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Postby The Ginger Man on Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:05 pm

Chairman Kaga wrote:
The Ginger Man wrote:Now that I think about it, I would soooo buy a comic that was Dr. Doom serving the Marvel Universe in a dance competition.

That's sig worthy.

Brocktune from what I gather Thor was dead but I am way out of the loop.


And so it shall be. Rock.
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Postby MasterWhedon on Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:07 pm

Brocktune wrote:please forgive me for asking a very stupid question, but i have been out of the loop for quite a while.

so why did thor leave in the first place?

Check out Thor's Wiki page under "Ragnarok." Apparently, he fought something, some stuff happened and he ended up in the "sleep of the gods," which could have been death. But wasn't.

He's been gone. His hammer turned up in Fantastic Four a few months back. Now he's here.
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Postby Brocktune on Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:09 pm

if that is true, then what the Ginger Man says is kind of right.

how did he die?
loki?
dr. blake's jealous nurse?
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Postby MasterWhedon on Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:12 pm

Brocktune wrote:how did he die?
loki?
dr. blake's jealous nurse?

Y'know, there might be something on that on his Wiki page. Under "Ragnarok."
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Postby Brocktune on Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:20 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:
Brocktune wrote:how did he die?
loki?
dr. blake's jealous nurse?

Y'know, there might be something on that on his Wiki page. Under "Ragnarok."


allright, no need to break my balls any further. i must have been posting at exactly the same time as you. wikipedia, here i come!
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Postby DennisMM on Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:21 pm

The Ginger Man wrote:What has me scared/interested the most is Stark's "blueprint for the new century" or whatever he called it. That's where the crux of this story is/should be. B/C it's superheroes deciding THEY are the best people to guide the future.


Marvel did it 20 years ago in Mark Gruenwald's excellent Squadron Supreme 12-issue series. The Squadron decided to make earth just as good as it could be, even if some liberties wound up suffering. The group split and villains were drawn to the rebels' side. It was pre-edgy, but it's good stuff and might still be available in TPB because of the current SS books.
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Postby MasterWhedon on Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:22 pm

Brocktune wrote:
MasterWhedon wrote:
Brocktune wrote:how did he die?
loki?
dr. blake's jealous nurse?

Y'know, there might be something on that on his Wiki page. Under "Ragnarok."


allright, no need to break my balls any further. i must have been posting at exactly the same time as you. wikipedia, here i come!

Your balls are my favorite to break.

:twisted:
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Postby Brocktune on Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:26 pm

its nice to be appreciated for something.

glad to know my balls are an endless source of enjoyment for you.
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Postby The Ginger Man on Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:29 pm

DennisMM wrote:
The Ginger Man wrote:What has me scared/interested the most is Stark's "blueprint for the new century" or whatever he called it. That's where the crux of this story is/should be. B/C it's superheroes deciding THEY are the best people to guide the future.


Marvel did it 20 years ago in Mark Gruenwald's excellent Squadron Supreme 12-issue series. The Squadron decided to make earth just as good as it could be, even if some liberties wound up suffering. The group split and villains were drawn to the rebels' side. It was pre-edgy, but it's good stuff and might still be available in TPB because of the current SS books.


Oooooh! I know what I'm hunting down this week. Thanks, Dennis!
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Postby DennisMM on Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:00 pm

It's a bit naive, because it was published in the '80s. It has sexual themes, for instance, but very low-key because of the Comics Code, and contains some silly super-science material. Overall, though, it's good reading.

ETA: It's in print and available at amazon.com.
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Postby Theta on Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:20 am

MasterWhedon wrote:Deciding on something like registration in a world where superheroes have run relatively unchecked for years requires at lest SOME examination of the issue at hand, and an interview of She-Hulk by Larry King doesn't really suffice. The escalation makes for a much more compelling story in my eyes, but it's one of those things where I think the conflict could've been avoided for at least a little bit longer.


It'd be a lot more compelling if it, you know, made sense. I've read Rob Liefield comics that were more coherent and thought out. I especially like how Captain America is a complete idiot, tactics-wise. And how apparently we didn't really need all these heroes. Apparently the entire freakin' supervillain community in the Marvel U can be handled by the freakin' Thunderbolts. :roll:

When Mark Millar tanks out and leaves, it will be a great day for comic books.
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Postby wheredidigo111 on Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:30 am

DennisMM wrote:It's a bit naive, because it was published in the '80s. It has sexual themes, for instance, but very low-key because of the Comics Code, and contains some silly super-science material. Overall, though, it's good reading.

ETA: It's in print and available at amazon.com.


The Comics Code Is notting more then a joke now.
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Postby Shane on Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:07 pm

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Postby wheredidigo111 on Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:37 pm

I saw the new Marvel preview And I think Iron Man's butler is going to die in Civil War.
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Postby unikrunk on Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:45 pm

wheredidigo111 wrote:I saw the new Marvel preview And I think Iron Man's butler is going to die in Civil War.


tragic.
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Postby wheredidigo111 on Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:58 pm

Dint Marvel make Iron Man in to a supervillain once?
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Postby ONeillSG1 on Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:58 pm

wheredidigo111 wrote:I saw the new Marvel preview And I think Iron Man's butler is going to die in Civil War.


Dude, they are going to kill off a character who has an animated movie coming out the same year AND a feature film which was all the buzz at Comic-Con?

Dude, stop smoking crack.
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Postby wheredidigo111 on Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:14 pm

ONeillSG1 wrote:
wheredidigo111 wrote:I saw the new Marvel preview And I think Iron Man's butler is going to die in Civil War.


Dude, they are going to kill off a character who has an animated movie coming out the same year AND a feature film which was all the buzz at Comic-Con?

Dude, stop smoking crack.


I was just looking at preview for the New Avengers #25. On there it saids something like Tony has made a fatal mistake showing Iron Man's butler on the ground. And also Smartass it just a guess that's it notting more. I could be wrong. And in this case I'm hoping on it.
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Postby ONeillSG1 on Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:15 pm

wheredidigo111 wrote:
ONeillSG1 wrote:
wheredidigo111 wrote:I saw the new Marvel preview And I think Iron Man's butler is going to die in Civil War.


Dude, they are going to kill off a character who has an animated movie coming out the same year AND a feature film which was all the buzz at Comic-Con?

Dude, stop smoking crack.


I was just looking at preview for the New Avengers #25. On there it saids something like Tony has made a fatal mistake showing Iron Man's butler on the ground. And also Smartass it just a guess that's it notting more. I could be wrong. And in this case I'm hoping on it.


Hoping for him to die or to be wrong?
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Postby wheredidigo111 on Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:21 pm

ONeillSG1 wrote:
wheredidigo111 wrote:
ONeillSG1 wrote:
wheredidigo111 wrote:I saw the new Marvel preview And I think Iron Man's butler is going to die in Civil War.


Dude, they are going to kill off a character who has an animated movie coming out the same year AND a feature film which was all the buzz at Comic-Con?

Dude, stop smoking crack.


I was just looking at preview for the New Avengers #25. On there it saids something like Tony has made a fatal mistake showing Iron Man's butler on the ground. And also Smartass it just a guess that's it notting more. I could be wrong. And in this case I'm hoping on it.


Hoping for him to die or to be wrong?


Both. You know ONeillSG1 all I'm doing is just posting what I saw and think nothing more nothing less.
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Postby Theta on Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:43 pm

ONeillSG1 wrote:
wheredidigo111 wrote:I saw the new Marvel preview And I think Iron Man's butler is going to die in Civil War.


Dude, they are going to kill off a character who has an animated movie coming out the same year AND a feature film which was all the buzz at Comic-Con?

Dude, stop smoking crack.


Hey, they killed Ultimate Jarvis in the latest run of "The Ultimates"...and not a fucking moment too soon.
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Postby ONeillSG1 on Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:58 am

wheredidigo111 wrote:
ONeillSG1 wrote:
wheredidigo111 wrote:
ONeillSG1 wrote:
wheredidigo111 wrote:I saw the new Marvel preview And I think Iron Man's butler is going to die in Civil War.


Dude, they are going to kill off a character who has an animated movie coming out the same year AND a feature film which was all the buzz at Comic-Con?

Dude, stop smoking crack.


I was just looking at preview for the New Avengers #25. On there it saids something like Tony has made a fatal mistake showing Iron Man's butler on the ground. And also Smartass it just a guess that's it notting more. I could be wrong. And in this case I'm hoping on it.


Hoping for him to die or to be wrong?


Both. You know ONeillSG1 all I'm doing is just posting what I saw and think nothing more nothing less.


It's either one or the other.

Nevermind. Talking to you like is like talking to a deaf ALF child. At least they'll respond to Chips Ahoy.
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Postby wheredidigo111 on Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:05 am

ONeillSG1 wrote:
wheredidigo111 wrote:
ONeillSG1 wrote:
wheredidigo111 wrote:
ONeillSG1 wrote:
wheredidigo111 wrote:I saw the new Marvel preview And I think Iron Man's butler is going to die in Civil War.


Dude, they are going to kill off a character who has an animated movie coming out the same year AND a feature film which was all the buzz at Comic-Con?

Dude, stop smoking crack.


I was just looking at preview for the New Avengers #25. On there it saids something like Tony has made a fatal mistake showing Iron Man's butler on the ground. And also Smartass it just a guess that's it notting more. I could be wrong. And in this case I'm hoping on it.


Hoping for him to die or to be wrong?


Both. You know ONeillSG1 all I'm doing is just posting what I saw and think nothing more nothing less.


It's either one or the other.

Nevermind. Talking to you like is like talking to a deaf ALF child. At least they'll respond to Chips Ahoy.


Frist stop with the crapy insults. There is no one or the other. This is nothing more then an opinion that's it. Now drop it.
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Postby ONeillSG1 on Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:23 am

Ok, this is the last time I'll say this:

I was asking you whether or not you were hoping for him to die or live.

You said "both".

You can't hope for someone to die and to live at the same time, therefore . . . .

wait for it . . .

IT IS EITHER ONE OR THE OTHER!!!

But, at this point, I don't give a crap anymore.
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Postby wheredidigo111 on Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:45 am

ONeillSG1 wrote:Ok, this is the last time I'll say this:

I was asking you whether or not you were hoping for him to die or live.

You said "both".

You can't hope for someone to die and to live at the same time, therefore . . . .

wait for it . . .

IT IS EITHER ONE OR THE OTHER!!!

But, at this point, I don't give a crap anymore.


Man you could just said that from the begining. I want him to live ,man.
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Postby ONeillSG1 on Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:02 am

wheredidigo111 wrote:
ONeillSG1 wrote:Ok, this is the last time I'll say this:

I was asking you whether or not you were hoping for him to die or live.

You said "both".

You can't hope for someone to die and to live at the same time, therefore . . . .

wait for it . . .

IT IS EITHER ONE OR THE OTHER!!!

But, at this point, I don't give a crap anymore.


Man you could just said that from the begining. I want him to live ,man.


Well, thank the f*** for communication, you hoople-headed c***-****er.

Sorry, I'm in a Deadwood mood.
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Postby Keepcoolbutcare on Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:19 am

Theta wrote:
ONeillSG1 wrote:
wheredidigo111 wrote:I saw the new Marvel preview And I think Iron Man's butler is going to die in Civil War.


Dude, they are going to kill off a character who has an animated movie coming out the same year AND a feature film which was all the buzz at Comic-Con?

Dude, stop smoking crack.


Hey, they killed Ultimate Jarvis in the latest run of "The Ultimates"...and not a fucking moment too soon.


SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!

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Postby wheredidigo111 on Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:32 pm

ONeillSG1 wrote:
wheredidigo111 wrote:
ONeillSG1 wrote:Ok, this is the last time I'll say this:

I was asking you whether or not you were hoping for him to die or live.

You said "both".

You can't hope for someone to die and to live at the same time, therefore . . . .

wait for it . . .

IT IS EITHER ONE OR THE OTHER!!!

But, at this point, I don't give a crap anymore.


Man you could just said that from the begining. I want him to live ,man.


Well, thank the f*** for communication, you hoople-headed c***-****er.

Sorry, I'm in a Deadwood mood.


And with that. I say lighten up. It was just a joke. And yes I do want him to live.
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Postby ONeillSG1 on Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:58 pm

wheredidigo111 wrote:
ONeillSG1 wrote:
wheredidigo111 wrote:
ONeillSG1 wrote:Ok, this is the last time I'll say this:

I was asking you whether or not you were hoping for him to die or live.

You said "both".

You can't hope for someone to die and to live at the same time, therefore . . . .

wait for it . . .

IT IS EITHER ONE OR THE OTHER!!!

But, at this point, I don't give a crap anymore.


Man you could just said that from the begining. I want him to live ,man.


Well, thank the f*** for communication, you hoople-headed c***-****er.

Sorry, I'm in a Deadwood mood.


And with that. I say lighten up. It was just a joke. And yes I do want him to live.


So do I. So do I. But, I also want Cap to live.

Problem is, with the way they fought in #3, I don't see it ending without one of them biting it big time.
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Postby Pudie on Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:26 pm

I just read Frontlines #4. Not too good imo. The Embeded story is the only real good one, with a great ending.
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Postby Hollywood_Bob on Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:20 pm

The new Black Panther issue was interesting...The one thing I couldn't figure was if it was before or after the fight in CW #3...I am enjoying the FL series and the Wolverine storylines as well, I just hope that the XMEN storyline gets better.
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Postby MasterWhedon on Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:08 pm

Read New Avengers #22 last night and really, really liked it. This is the first time Luke Cage has REALLY clicked with me.

Obviously, it's ridiculous to have government agents go into someone's home and drag them out into the night to register them, but I still stand on my side of the line. They might be fucking up how they're going about it, but the Registration is still a good idea.

Still, awesome fucking fight scene with Luke, Cap, Falcon, and "Daredevil." Nice, tight writing and penciling. I'm kinda happy Lenil Yu is going to be on this book full time soon.

Also read Runaways/Young Avengers and was kinda disgusted with the art. Normally I love the manga flair, but this shit was like the less talented younger brother to Joe Mad, Roger Cruz or Jeff Matsuda. A few good panels, but otherwise I wasn't feeling it.
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Postby Ribbons on Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:27 pm

I loved the panel in New Avengers #22 where Cage picks up the couch as he's getting ready to throw it at the door. He says something totally nonchalant like, "Hold on, I'm getting up," or something. Not really sure why, but that seemed really cool to me.
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Postby Squashua on Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:14 pm

Ribbons wrote:I loved the panel in New Avengers #22 where Cage picks up the couch as he's getting ready to throw it at the door. He says something totally nonchalant like, "Hold on, I'm getting up," or something. Not really sure why, but that seemed really cool to me.


Yeah, that one panel pretty much did it for me, too.
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Postby wheredidigo111 on Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:07 pm

Is it me are did all news on Civil War just stop.
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Postby tfactor on Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:08 pm

its you :P
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Postby Brocktune on Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:13 pm

when does #4 come out.
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Postby MasterWhedon on Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:19 pm

Brocktune wrote:when does #4 come out.

The 30th.

Christ, that's forever away...
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Postby Brocktune on Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:23 pm

good.
that'll give me time to secure that loan from my bank so i can afford all of that weeks crossover titles.
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