CIVIL WAR--NEW MASSIVE SPOILERS- BEWARE!!!!!!

Graphic novels. Weekly rags. The @$$holes.

Whose side are you on?

Iron Man
13
14%
Captain America
64
69%
undecided
16
17%
 
Total votes : 93

Postby Leckomaniac on Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:15 am

Sigh.

Surprise, surprise.

CIVIL WAR #7 DELAYED!

It appears that Civil War #7 will ship a month late, arriving February 21st.

While no official announcement has been made...Marvel's website went ahead and changed the release date of the final issue.

Ouch. With sales declining with each issue (it still is selling like hot cakes...just not at the 300,000 unit level) one can only wonder what this could do to the series and its tie-ins. More to come, I would assume.
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Postby burlivesleftnut on Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:28 am

The tie-ins are all getting tremendous bumps even WITH the delays. One of the columnists on CBR wrote about it yesterday.
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Postby Leckomaniac on Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:48 pm

burlivesleftnut wrote:The tie-ins are all getting tremendous bumps even WITH the delays. One of the columnists on CBR wrote about it yesterday.


I didn't phrase it properly, but what I meant was I wonder what the shipping schedule for the tie-in's will look like. Delaying the main series, you would think, would have to cause a ripple effect of delays in the tie-ins.
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Postby Leckomaniac on Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:33 pm

CLICK HERE FOR THE COVER TO CIVIL WAR #7!

Civil War gets a one-shot epilogue issue written by Briand Bendis with art from Alex Maleev titled Civil War: The Confession.

Read all about it right here!
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Postby MasterWhedon on Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:33 pm

SPOILERS FOR CIVIL WAR #6


WHEN THE FUCK IS THIS FIGHT GONNA HAPPEN?!!


END SPOILERS
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Postby Hollywood_Bob on Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:41 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:SPOILERS FOR CIVIL WAR #6


WHEN THE FUCK IS THIS FIGHT GONNA HAPPEN?!!


END SPOILERS


CW #7
"The only way to rid yourself of tempation...is to yeild to it." Oscar Wilde

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Postby MasterWhedon on Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:11 pm

Michael Turner's battle-tastic Civil War #7 variant cover is up at Newsarama. Also has McNiven's, for those who missed it.
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Postby Hollywood_Bob on Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:44 pm

ce looking covers. Now that this thing is winding down...looking back I am glad that Marvel decided to keep the X-men for the most part out of it. While their involvement was there, they were the "centerpiece" of the event as they have been scapegoated to so many times before.

P.S.

Still think that this whole civil war is meaningless because when the Hulk returns he is going to wipe his ass with everyone.
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Postby MasterWhedon on Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:38 pm

Today is the day! I'm heading out at lunch to pick up my copy!





BTW, Pro-Reg wins. 8)
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Postby The Ginger Man on Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:08 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:BTW, Pro-Reg wins. 8)


Of course Pro-Reg is victorious. All Iron Man needs to do is kick Cap's ass. That's it...fight over.

For Anti-Reg to win, Cap has to get a law repealed....but Cap has been spending his time sulking, performing covert ops, acting preachy....the entire time, completely ignoring the American Judicial System.

-----

Insignificant Supporting Character: Hey, Cap. Daredevil has a bunch of lawyer friends. We could hire some lobbyists, put together an ad campaign, start a grassroots following. We might even be able to appeal to the Supreme Court!

Captain America: No...no. I think the Punisher would be more effective.
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Postby buster00 on Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:36 pm

The Ginger Man wrote:
Insignificant Supporting Character: Hey, Cap. Daredevil has a bunch of lawyer friends. We could hire some lobbyists, put together an ad campaign, start a grassroots following. We might even be able to appeal to the Supreme Court!

Captain America: No...no. I think the Punisher would be more effective.


LOLOLOLOL!!

That is hilarious, but the problem with litigation is: The rebels would have to reveal their secret ID's in court. Kinda defeats the purpose.
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Postby bluebottle on Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:39 pm

god, it's not over.

now we go into CIVIL WAR: EPILOGUE

at least it wrapped it up a little neater than the last Crisis.
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Postby The Ginger Man on Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:50 pm

buster00 wrote:
The Ginger Man wrote:
Insignificant Supporting Character: Hey, Cap. Daredevil has a bunch of lawyer friends. We could hire some lobbyists, put together an ad campaign, start a grassroots following. We might even be able to appeal to the Supreme Court!

Captain America: No...no. I think the Punisher would be more effective.


LOLOLOLOL!!

That is hilarious, but the problem with litigation is: The rebels would have to reveal their secret ID's in court. Kinda defeats the purpose.


Actually, I think Spider-Man set a precedent in She-Hulk a year or so ago where he was able to sue J. Jonah Jameson for libel w/o revealing his identity. Hilarity ensued when JJJ's lawyer called Peter Parker as a witness for JJJ. Oh that Peter and his wacky adventures.

And sad that I just used a one comic book to site legal precedence for another comic book.
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Postby burlivesleftnut on Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:54 pm

In Cap's defense, his focus switched from sulking about the law to trying to free heroes who were held prisoner in the negative zone. So give me a break. I don't think they care about changing the law. I think they just don't want to obey it, and they want to protect their mates who don't want to obey it.
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Postby bluebottle on Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:56 pm

Well, I think that Cap figured if he could eventually gain the majority of the support, the law would be repealed.

is that right? repealed?
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Postby The Ginger Man on Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:06 pm

burlivesleftnut wrote:In Cap's defense, his focus switched from sulking about the law to trying to free heroes who were held prisoner in the negative zone. So give me a break. I don't think they care about changing the law. I think they just don't want to obey it, and they want to protect their mates who don't want to obey it.


I was just making a joke, anyway. When MW said that Pro-Reg would win, it just occured to me for the 1st time that for Anti-Reg to win...they really would have to repeal the law. And since that AND a climactic battle probably wouldn't happen in the last issue...Pro-Reg would win. And that just lead to a funny little dialogue in my head.

I honestly don't care either way. I felt the whole event turned south around issues 3 and 4.
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Postby bluebottle on Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:11 pm

and we still don't know why spiderman is wearing his black suit again...

(I'm guessing it's because he's sad)
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Postby The Ginger Man on Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:20 pm

Bluebottle wrote:and we still don't know why spiderman is wearing his black suit again...

(I'm guessing it's because he's sad)


(I'm guessing cross-promotion) ;-)



Also...Marvel still has Civil War events happening into May. Capt America, Iron Man, and Spider-Man all have Civil War one-shots called "Fallen Son," where they personally deal with the aftermath of CW.

Personally, I can't wait for next year's Civil War Reunion special.
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Postby buster00 on Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:22 pm

The Ginger Man wrote:
Personally, I can't wait for next year's Civil War Reunion special.


Yeah, when they all get together and have a good laugh about the whole thing.

"Remember how that Thor clone just decimated Black Goliath? Didja see the look on his face? Ha, ha, ha! Good times, man."
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Postby bluebottle on Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:24 pm

"Hey Peter, remember when you outed yourself on national TV!"

they all laugh.

"How is that? Having a public identity?"

"everyone i love is dead"

they all laugh.
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Postby Adam Balm on Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:44 pm

I like the black costume, I just wish that the white spider logo was replaced with a frowny face, and then maybe spider-man could wear torn jeans and carry around House of Leaves with him wherever he goes.
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Postby The Ginger Man on Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:01 pm

Adam Balm wrote:I like the black costume, I just wish that the white spider logo was replaced with a frowny face, and then maybe spider-man could wear torn jeans and carry around House of Leaves with him wherever he goes.


I see it now! "The Emo-zine Spider-Boy."

(notice the play on "Amazing" to "Emo-zine"...cuz it would be like an Emo comic, but being a zine would make it more...you know....like, real.....yeah......shut up)
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Postby The Ginger Man on Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:05 pm

EDIT: I found what happened. Here it is in tiny text for anyone interested.

- Cloak teleports everyone outside of Baxter Building.
- Clor shows up to help, and Namor shows up to help Cap.
- Hercules takes out Clor, and Reed is hurt taking a shot from Tasky meant for Sue.
- Cap is about to take out Tony when he's grabbed by a bunch of New York citizens. He sees the damange they casued, orders both sides to stand down, and lets himself be arrested.
- 50 State initiative goes into place. Cap still has random superhero groups underground. Sue goes back to Reed. Tony becomes head of SHIELD.


And for the record....that's really lame.
Last edited by The Ginger Man on Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby RaulMonkey on Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:06 pm

FUG! Two Lenny B's!
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Postby burlivesleftnut on Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:43 pm

Adam Balm wrote:I like the black costume, I just wish that the white spider logo was replaced with a frowny face, and then maybe spider-man could wear torn jeans and carry around House of Leaves with him wherever he goes.


HAHAHAHA... excellent humor.
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Postby Adam Balm on Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:20 pm

The Ginger Man wrote:EDIT: I found what happened. Here it is in tiny text for anyone interested.

- Cloak teleports everyone outside of Baxter Building.
- Clor shows up to help, and Namor shows up to help Cap.
- Hercules takes out Clor, and Reed is hurt taking a shot from Tasky meant for Sue.
- Cap is about to take out Tony when he's grabbed by a bunch of New York citizens. He sees the damange they casued, orders both sides to stand down, and lets himself be arrested.
- 50 State initiative goes into place. Cap still has random superhero groups underground. Sue goes back to Reed. Tony becomes head of SHIELD.


And for the record....that's really lame.


And supposedly Joss Whedon was the one who gave them the ending too, so I can't wait for MW's reaction to that...
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Postby MasterWhedon on Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:26 pm

Adam Balm wrote:
The Ginger Man wrote:EDIT: I found what happened. Here it is in tiny text for anyone interested.

- Cloak teleports everyone outside of Baxter Building.
- Clor shows up to help, and Namor shows up to help Cap.
- Hercules takes out Clor, and Reed is hurt taking a shot from Tasky meant for Sue.
- Cap is about to take out Tony when he's grabbed by a bunch of New York citizens. He sees the damange they casued, orders both sides to stand down, and lets himself be arrested.
- 50 State initiative goes into place. Cap still has random superhero groups underground. Sue goes back to Reed. Tony becomes head of SHIELD.


And for the record....that's really lame.


And supposedly Joss Whedon was the one who gave them the ending too, so I can't wait for MW's reaction to that...

Buh-buh-buh-wha?! :shock:

As I understand it, he was at the meeting where they decided the ending, and he hammered home that they had to fully commit to it, but I never heard that he was the one who came up with it.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway, I still kinda liked it. I just really dig what it does to the landscape of the Marvel Universe, how it really has shaken things up for the next few years at least.

Sure was super-purdy with all those splash pages too...
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Postby Adam Balm on Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:30 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:
Adam Balm wrote:
The Ginger Man wrote:EDIT: I found what happened. Here it is in tiny text for anyone interested.

- Cloak teleports everyone outside of Baxter Building.
- Clor shows up to help, and Namor shows up to help Cap.
- Hercules takes out Clor, and Reed is hurt taking a shot from Tasky meant for Sue.
- Cap is about to take out Tony when he's grabbed by a bunch of New York citizens. He sees the damange they casued, orders both sides to stand down, and lets himself be arrested.
- 50 State initiative goes into place. Cap still has random superhero groups underground. Sue goes back to Reed. Tony becomes head of SHIELD.


And for the record....that's really lame.


And supposedly Joss Whedon was the one who gave them the ending too, so I can't wait for MW's reaction to that...

Buh-buh-buh-wha?! :shock:

As I understand it, he was at the meeting where they decided the ending, and he hammered home that they had to fully commit to it, but I never heard that he was the one who came up with it.


Yeah, unless I imagined it. I just read it some time in the past few days and was thinking the exact same thing. Lemme try and find out where I saw that. It was either CBR or newsarama..
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Postby MasterWhedon on Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:34 pm

Joe Quesada's mentioned that meeting about a gazillion times now over at Newsarama, whenever he talks about the ending. And it's really funny, because he always refers to it as "that meeting that Joss Whedon dropped in on"--again and again, almost like he's name-dropping.

You gotta feel bad for Mark Millar, who must've been there too! :roll:
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Postby Adam Balm on Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:35 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:Joe Quesada's mentioned that meeting about a gazillion times now over at Newsarama, whenever he talks about the ending. And it's really funny, because he always refers to it as "that meeting that Joss Whedon dropped in on"--again and again, almost like he's name-dropping.

You gotta feel bad for Mark Millar, who must've been there too! :roll:


Especially ironic because Millar's the original name dropper. :D
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Postby The Ginger Man on Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:43 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway, I still kinda liked it. I just really dig what it does to the landscape of the Marvel Universe, how it really has shaken things up for the next few years at least.


See, that's what I don't like. Sure, it shakes things up...but not naturally. It's fast, splashy, easily marketed, and completely out-of-touch with the core titles.

SPOILERS







Spider-Man unmasked. Captain American in jail. Captain Marvel resurrected. Tony Stark, leader of SHIELD. None of these interesting story ideas got proper build-up. They were flash-pan ideas for Mark Millar's temporary story and now the core titles have to shift gears. Whereas each of these ideas could have been developed into individual arcs for their respective characters and provided years of new, interesting stories.

Eh...guess I'm just old fashioned.
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Postby Adam Balm on Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:47 pm

I totally agree. It doesn't feel organic. It does smell of artificially imposed shock tactics (which is also Millar's cologne btw) but that's pretty much what I expected. I was hoping for better, but oh well..
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Postby MasterWhedon on Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:53 pm

You guuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuys... I agree.

My writing partner and I were joking around about how we should be the EIC's of Marvel, how we'd completely strip it down to maaaaaaaybe ten titles and have big, sprawling, interconnected stories that would build together to a climax years in the making. We'd be fired in a second, but it'd still make for some damn fun storytelling.
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Postby The Ginger Man on Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:55 pm

Adam Balm wrote:I totally agree. It doesn't feel organic. It does smell of artificially imposed shock tactics (which is also Millar's cologne btw) but that's pretty much what I expected. I was hoping for better, but oh well..


I can't wait to see how they "fix" Spidey's unmasking in the future. I'm betting we get a second (or new) Spider-Man so Peter can sit-out for a while and get lost among the confusion...only to later step back into the costume.

Can't wait for that 12-issue, internet-splitting, crossover event.
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Postby Adam Balm on Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:59 pm

The Ginger Man wrote:I can't wait to see how they "fix" Spidey's unmasking in the future. I'm betting we get a second (or new) Spider-Man so Peter can sit-out for a while and get lost among the confusion...only to later step back into the costume.


Exactly. It's the old 'double your pleasure'.

Marvel/DC: 'Oooh, things will never be the same!'

:fanboys then buy it up like hotcakes, breaking sales records, then after reading complain that now things just aren't the same.:

Marvel/DC: 'Oooh, now things are changing back!'

:fanboys then buy up the return to the status quo like hotcakes. Witness every single character that was supposed to have been killed, and later returns.:
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Postby The Ginger Man on Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:00 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:You guuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuys... I agree.

My writing partner and I were joking around about how we should be the EIC's of Marvel, how we'd completely strip it down to maaaaaaaybe ten titles and have big, sprawling, interconnected stories that would build together to a climax years in the making. We'd be fired in a second, but it'd still make for some damn fun storytelling.


I think it's easier than that. Maybe even possible/profitable.

You bring Mark Millar into the office. He completely map out Civil War (or whatever earth shaking event is next). You ask him where all the characters are at by the end of the story.

You then give him a check and credit for the story ideas. Then you give each character's "ending point" to that character's creative team and ask, "Think you can do something with this?"

Yeah. Looks interesting.

"Cool. Don't stop what you're doing now. Just know you have 12 months to build to this."


Oh. And then you stop spoiling everything on the internet 3 months in advance.
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Postby MasterWhedon on Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:11 pm

It's like you've thought about this or something...

Personally, I can't stand multiple montlies around one character. Why does Superman, Batman or Spider-Man NEED three, four, five books a month? The honest answer is they don't. They should have a focused, centralized story for each of these characters so there can actually be some growth and change. Instead, it's like they're hegding their bets on a handful of half-assed stories that never get anywhere. At times, I've liked the way the X-Men have done it, with separate teams going off on separate missions. I even really like the purpose of the two new Avengers teams. But, in the end, it's just a fucking headache to figure out all the continuity.

Fewer projects, higher quality--that's the mantra.
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Postby Lord Voldemoo on Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:40 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:It's like you've thought about this or something...

Personally, I can't stand multiple montlies around one character. Why does Superman, Batman or Spider-Man NEED three, four, five books a month? The honest answer is they don't. They should have a focused, centralized story for each of these characters so there can actually be some growth and change. Instead, it's like they're hegding their bets on a handful of half-assed stories that never get anywhere. At times, I've liked the way the X-Men have done it, with separate teams going off on separate missions. I even really like the purpose of the two new Avengers teams. But, in the end, it's just a fucking headache to figure out all the continuity.

Fewer projects, higher quality--that's the mantra.


could not agree more.

Ok, after taking a half year break after books 1 and 2 in the series, I went to the comic shop today and bought 3-7, just read them back to back. I'd been reading New Avengers and Spiderman and Iron Man this whole time so I knew roughly what was going on.

SPOILERS!!!!!! I wont be bothered with tiny print so stop reading now if you haven't read Civil War 7...






Firstly, a personal aside:
Iron Man has always been my favorite comic character, even since I was a calf. Damn if I don't hate smug Tony Stark right now. IRON MAN: DIRECTOR OF SHIELD... :roll: :roll: :roll: I genuinely think Tony felt like he was doing the right thing, but enlisting Venom and other supervillians?! Making a Thor-bot? I know Tony just sees tech as tech, neither good nor evil, but the Thor-bot was fucking creepy. I think Tony's soul was lost when he "died" back in Iron Man #whatever 10 years ago.

Secondly, the ending:
It was...abrupt. Which is kinda unavoidable I guess unless they give us the old "ending without an ending" routine, which is kinda what happened anyway, with the New Avengers still going on...

In a weird way I wish the series were going on for another 10 months so it didn't feel like "Oh shit, it's book 7...we better get this done!" But I don't think I could deal with another 10 months of this.

In another way, the ending was perfect. As much as Iron Man rubbed me the wrong way in this series, so did Cap. He said the right things, but at the end of the day a lot of his motivations seemed selfish and very un-Cap-like to me. When he realized he was being held back by regular citizens, the same people he'd been fighting his entire life to protect, he FINALLY had a moment of pause. It's hokey, sure, but let's face it, so is Cap. If there was going to be one man to end this without widespread death and destruction, it HAD to be him, and he finally realized it.

Finally: general thoughts:
I dunno, it was an interesting ride, it certainly helped to re-invigorate me with regard to Marvel books, quite honestly, so from a business perspective: mission accomplished. I know books 3-6 didn't sell as well as books 1 and 2, but that's to be expected, unfortunately they weren't quite as good, either....but overall I thought the series accomplished a lot of the things it set out to do: 1) sell more books; 2) generate readership in "second tier" books; 3) shake things up...again. Now it will be interesting to see if it goes anywhere...
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Postby burlivesleftnut on Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:16 am

I feel there were some major missteps in this whole storyline, but I did enjoy Civil War as a whole. Some of the shit Marvel dumped at me was totally forced and stupid (re: Captain Marvel's Return), but I disagree with Ginger's interpretation that the new direction these characters face is forced.

For instance, while I loathed Spidey unmasking because HE'S FUCKING SPIDERMANS!@##!, I actually like how this has been handled in his books. Frankly, these are some of the best Spidey stories I have read in years.

Also, with Iron Man... I was never a fan (sorry cowman). Iron Man was always a boring character to me, but Civil War got me reading his latest run, and I am surprised that I actually dig it. Tony, much like Reed Richards, can't stop thinking. For Reed it's technology and science, but for Tony, it's the future. The more invested I got in Civil War was because somewhere along the way I started to see where Tony was coming from. I still think the idea of registration is putrid, but within the framework of the Marvel Universe, I actually accept the idea now, and further I accept Tony as a real hero, but a HUMAN one. What I mean by that is that he has the best intentions, but he is not godlike and makes some really bad decisions. Yeah Clor was a BAD idea. Thunderbolts (while cynically entertaining) is a BAD idea, but Tony's ultimate goals were altruistic, and I think he maintained that despite setbacks. I am not sure about the SHIELD storyline because SHIELD has always been pretty boring to me, but I am not DISinterested. Not yet anyway. And I don't think the idea feels forced. Mariah Hill was established as a real ball breaker and kind of an evil gentleman. It was HER idea for Tony to take the lead at SHIELD and I thought that was a thoughtful arc for such a maligned character.

And Cap in jail? Well as a rabid fan of Cap's current comic, I can only say that this is totally appropriate for the character. He's never had more angst than now, and the way he PERSONALLY resolved the conflict made total sense, and as his character stands today, I know he would want nothing more to be punished for his crimes. Why? Well it's not because Cap is patriotic. We don't doubt that. No, I think it's because Cap is the most ethical character in the 616. I found his resolution to be completely logical.

Reed was another irritant for me throughout this series, but Mike Carey's first ish on FF put everything in perspective. So there.
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Postby instant_karma on Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:04 am

Oh...I thought this was a thread about Alt ID's.

Sorry...I'll go now...
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Postby Lord Voldemoo on Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:10 am

instant_karma wrote:Oh...I thought this was a thread about Alt ID's.

Sorry...I'll go now...


HAHAHAHA! I had the same thought earlier...
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Postby MasterWhedon on Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:18 pm

The final Civil War Room is up at Newsarama. It's a pretty good wrap-up to the whole event.
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Postby Lord Voldemoo on Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:49 pm

Thanks MW.

One thing I'm curious about from the interview:

SPOILERS IF YOU HAVEN'T READ BOOK 7:


NRAMA: Okay – back to what happened, as it became the focal point of the entire conflict - straight up - were there civilian casualties in this fight? Looking at the damage, and knowing that there was a push to remove people from the location by rescue workers, Iron Man's side and Ben...still...not at least one old lady who refused to leave without her cats that bought it?

TB [says NRAMA but I think it's a typo]: Over in Front Line #11, there’s a statistic given of fifty-three dead, six of whom were costumed super-powered individuals


6 costumed super-powered individuals, is that just in the final fight? If so, who? I haven't read the frontline books.

I don't have book 7 in front of me right now, I'm assuming most or all of the "capes" killed were Thunderbolts...but I just don't know. Jester and Jack O Lantern were killed before the big fight, so was Goldbug and whatshisname, and I don't read the Thunderbolts book either. Can anyone help me out?
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Postby burlivesleftnut on Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:06 pm

Not that I mind Taskmaster, but his takedown was enough to warrent permanent death or even debilitating and permanent paralysis. God I love Susan Storm.
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Postby MasterWhedon on Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:11 pm

Moo, I'm with you. No idea who they are.

I think the best criticism I've seen of Civil War as a whole is this one by a user named johnnyrocket, from the Newsarama forums:

johnnyrocket wrote:Matt, Tom. I've said it before and I'll say it again.

If Tom has to come on chat boards to explain motviations, what happened, or fill in gaps from things that happened so far off panel they'll never see the light of day, then IT"S POOR STORY TELLING.

Tom's reading of the internal memo actually tells me more about the characters, motivations, the lingering respect between Tony and Cap, and the new status quo than what happened in the actual issue. After seeing this memo the published story itself seems like an abridged story with a series of 'jump cuts.' Tom's not just fleshing it out for us. Things like Cap asking Tony to guard the identities is an IMPORTANT PLOT POINT.

But let me guess. There's ANOTHER special you'd like me to buy that will have a conversation that will flesh out the points of the internal memo.. and it'll be written by Bendis. No thanks, I read the memo.

Its also a mistake to dismiss fans expecting a tighter continuity to the story itself. You can't expect fans to buy all the extraneous stories but then expect us not to be puzzled by plot points that should have been established in a 'story bible' at the on set of your project. But that's not even the real gripe. The real gripe all along has been that the main story can not stand on its own, and if so, is an incomplete tale. Heck, we all have to pick up Frontline in two weeks just to know what the big secret motiviation of the main character is. And the fact that Frontline wasn't ready or scheduled to be shipped yesterday, after all the other delays, is the other problem.

You can't have it both ways.

Point for point, he's 100% right.
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CIVIL WAR--Whose Side Are You On? (SPOILERS)

Postby bastard_robo on Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:51 pm

Read it.

Thought it was a little rushed....

Compleatly buy why cap gave up though.

Interested in Frank doing some shit as cap probably.

Like the fact that theres still a resistance.

ONE THING I REALLY LIKED was Tony taking over Shield and pwning that bitch Hill. I love how she's not in charge any more and it looks like she isnt going leave it at that.

All in all, a decent story, and a nice way to really change shit up, but how long is it going to stay that way?
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Postby MasterWhedon on Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:58 pm

Umm, I might be remembering this wrong, but didn't Maria Hill OFFER Tony the job at the end of New Avengers #25? So, like, why's he asking her to get coffee?
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CIVIL WAR--Whose Side Are You On? (SPOILERS)

Postby bastard_robo on Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:00 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:Umm, I might be remembering this wrong, but didn't Maria Hill OFFER Tony the job at the end of New Avengers #25? So, like, why's he asking her to get coffee?


Miller and Bendis didnt talk that day... so theres a goof in the story. Damn Mulit writers! If stan lee were dead he'd be rolling in his grave... and since he isnt.. he's doing a spit take with his morning coffee!
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Postby Lord Voldemoo on Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:23 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:Umm, I might be remembering this wrong, but didn't Maria Hill OFFER Tony the job at the end of New Avengers #25? So, like, why's he asking her to get coffee?


No, you're right and I was thinking about that too when I read it. But I just write it off as Tony being a dick, which he is apt to do from time to time. Mostly, though, I think it was the writer's "fuck you" to a character that fans are meant to dislike...a "oh look, she got hers!" even if it doesn't really make that much sense in context.

MW: on that critique that you posted, I agree as well. And I really, really wish they had included that discussion between Tony and Cap about Tony taking responsibility for the heroes' identities.
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Postby MasterWhedon on Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:25 pm

Lord Voldemoo wrote:MW: on that critique that you posted, I agree as well. And I really, really wish they had included that discussion between Tony and Cap about Tony taking responsibility for the heroes' identities.

There's an "epilogue" that Bendis is writing that's supposed to be a conversation (what else?) between Cap and Tony. I figure that's where it'll take place.

...which is all fine and good, BUT TELL THE STORY IN THE FUCKING STORY!!
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