Renee Montoya...I'm kinda torn

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Renee Montoya...I'm kinda torn

Postby Theta on Sat May 20, 2006 11:41 am

For those unfamiliar, Montoya is a minor character in the Batman series and a major player in "52."

Now, for the record, I hate, hate, hate that they turned Renee Montoya into a lesbian after years of having her, you know, date and bang guys in the Batman comics. I think it's a cliche to have the lesbian cop and I expected better of the writers on "Gotham Central", frankly. I mean, it's not like there's a lesbian quota, but it's always awkward to change an established character so dramatically (I honestly think only Willow in "Buffy" ever pulled it off.)

Which leads me to why I'm torn, because while I hate that they made the character a lesbian for plotting purposes...at the same time, go read issue #2 of "52" and check out the two hot chicks sleeping together in their lingerie. Again, something we don't see NEARLY enough of in mainstream comics.

So...I don't want to overlook the bad writing...but I love cheesecake, especially cheesecake with lesbian implications.
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Postby saucyminx on Sat May 20, 2006 1:11 pm

Yeah I kinda share your feeling about that. Montoya's cool.
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Postby zombieslayer on Sat May 20, 2006 4:04 pm

But is she FULL BLOWN lesbian, or just dabbling in bisexuality? lol.
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Postby saucyminx on Sat May 20, 2006 4:31 pm

She is a full blown lesbian. She was recently outed and and then disowned by her family. Spoiler follows:

Harvey 2 Face outed her because he was in love with her but was angry when she rejected him.
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Postby buster00 on Sat May 20, 2006 6:35 pm

AArRrRRgGHHGhh!!!!

TORN!!

Greg Rucka happens to have been one of my favorite Bat-writers over the last few years...I dug the shit out of his run on Detective...but that DOESN'T mean he's been flawless...

The Montoya-as-lesbian thing hasn't bothered me, as I thought it was pretty well written. Sure, lesbian cops are kind of a cliche, but not so much in mainstream comics, and I thought Rucka's handling of the subject matter was relatively true to the character.

But goddamn, man, yeah....tasty, tasty cheesecake....

And I love how the question is posed! HA! All polls should open in Conanspeak from now on.

No vote, man. TOO TORN!!

Who am I kiddin'. Say cheese, girls! Oooo, nice!
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Postby DennisMM on Sat May 20, 2006 8:37 pm

Yeah, but they've written so many lesbians into the Batman continuity of late that it's becoming depressing. They had Maggie Sawyer already. Are 75% of all women lesbian? Even closeted? Seems like it lately in the Bat books.
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Postby Adam Balm on Sat May 20, 2006 8:44 pm

DennisMM wrote:Yeah, but they've written so many lesbians into the Batman continuity of late that it's becoming depressing. They had Maggie Sawyer already. Are 75% of all women lesbian? Even closeted? Seems like it lately in the Bat books.


Not just lesbians, but all lipstick lesbians.
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Postby DennisMM on Sat May 20, 2006 8:45 pm

Adam Balm wrote:
DennisMM wrote:Yeah, but they've written so many lesbians into the Batman continuity of late that it's becoming depressing. They had Maggie Sawyer already. Are 75% of all women lesbian? Even closeted? Seems like it lately in the Bat books.


Not just lesbians, but all lipstick lesbians.


Maggie wasn't very lipstick in the Superman books, more tough and to-the-point without being dykey, but times change.
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Postby Adam Balm on Sat May 20, 2006 8:53 pm

And how many Dumbledore men are there in the DCU?

Besides aquaf@g of course...
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Postby DennisMM on Sat May 20, 2006 9:05 pm

Well ... there's Tempest, right? Or was he just drawn Dumbledore? (Little Phil Jimenez joke there. Very little.)
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Postby Theta on Sat May 20, 2006 9:16 pm

DennisMM wrote:Well ... there's Tempest, right? Or was he just drawn Dumbledore? (Little Phil Jimenez joke there. Very little.)


Wasn't Triumph, that electromagnetic guy who was "forgotten", supposed to be Dumbledore, too?

Personally, if DC wanted to make one of the big guns Dumbledore, I vote for Green Arrow. The name...the facial hair...the metrosexuals for sons...it all fits.
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Postby DennisMM on Sat May 20, 2006 10:00 pm

Seriously, there's a nice page here:

Most of the DC characters mentioned are decidedly minor. Extraño from The New Guardians is forgotten by almost everyone. But me, who found his copies of Millennium a couple of weeks ago, in which Extraño made his debut. Hero from Superboy and the Ravers (huh?) turned out to be homosexual, as did Josiah Power, leader of The Power Company. Obsidian, Alan Scott's hero/villain son, was outed in Manhunter. Tasmanian Devil also is Dumbledore.

The biggest name in DC queerdom by far is Hartley Rathaway, aka the Pied Piper, aka Piper, the Barry Allen rogue who reformed during Wally West's days as the Flash and later came out to his rather shocked friend. The oddest names, on the other hand, aren't even human. In one of his stranger Doom Patrol stories, Grant Morrison revealed The Brain and M. Mallah had long-repressed erotic urges for one another, which they consummated (as much as a brain in an artificial, sexless body and a humanized gorilla could) before their sudden deaths.
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Postby Adam Balm on Sat May 20, 2006 11:13 pm

It's really telling that according to statistics, at least one in ten DC heroes should be Dumbledore. But they're not, of course, because the universe was created with 13 year old boys in mind, and 13 year old males don't exactly want to be made to question their own sexuality. ("Holy shit! I didn't know he was a f@g when he was wearing skin tight spandex and prancing around with his underwear on the outside! If I saw him on the street I'd pull a Tyler Durden on him! Fucking queers...")

Contrast that with the cutesy, lipstick lesbians who are probably over-represented considering how few women heroes there are. Once again, 13 year old males were in mind...
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Postby DennisMM on Sat May 20, 2006 11:23 pm

But how many Dumbledore men, by comparison, are involved in law enforcement? Lots of them join the military because it makes frightened young homosexual men feel more secure about themselves, but I don't remember hearing about Dumbledore cops in those sorts of numbers. I know being a "pink" blue is remarkably difficult, but I'd expect more of a unified front by now.
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Postby Bob Samonkey on Sat May 20, 2006 11:24 pm

Couldn't the same be said in all media though? How many manly women do you see on TV and in the movies?
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Postby Adam Balm on Sat May 20, 2006 11:30 pm

DennisMM wrote:But how many Dumbledore men, by comparison, are involved in law enforcement? Lots of them join the military because it makes frightened young homosexual men feel more secure about themselves, but I don't remember hearing about Dumbledore cops in those sorts of numbers. I know being a "pink" blue is remarkably difficult, but I'd expect more of a unified front by now.


Well, the difference is that a vast majority of DC heroes didn't choose to go into crime-fighting/law-enforcement/superheroing, it chose them via either being born with powers or some random act (a lab accident, getting a power ring, having someone close to you get murdered, etc.).

So whereas the make up of law enforcement officers or soldiers might reflect some psychological predispositions to go into that line of work, DC heroes' make up should more likely reflect the overall population as a whole.
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Postby buster00 on Sun May 21, 2006 12:33 am

DennisMM wrote:The biggest name in DC queerdom by far is Hartley Rathaway, aka the Pied Piper, aka Piper, the Barry Allen rogue who reformed during Wally West's days as the Flash and later came out to his rather shocked friend.


That sentence just strikes me as kinda funny.

"The Pied Piper? Dumbledore?!? SHOCKING!!"
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Postby Theta on Mon May 22, 2006 6:44 pm

DennisMM wrote:Seriously, there's a nice page here:


The Black Cat is bisexual?

She's...she's...so...bendy...

Oh, wait, the only Black Cat stuff I have lying around is that Kevin Smith mini where she reveals she got raped. That's a bucket of ice water on the crotch!

On another note, John Constantine's bi? Really? THAT'S news. Not very surprising, considering he's a hedonist, a magician, a drunk and English (fun fact: the English have the single highest incidence of "same-sex sexual contact" of the entire Western world. Yes, even higher than the Italians. Or the French.) But still, a surprise.

EDIT: ELECTRO is bisexual?! Holy shit I am out of the loop. Did he just get raped at Ryker's Island or something, or was there this whole "Feedback Mountain" thing I missed? Was it with Shocker? PLEASE tell me it was with Shocker.

EDIT: Okay, there are some parts of this list that are REALLY pushing it. I don't know that I count tie-ins like Buffy comics as "comic book characters."
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Postby Adam Balm on Mon May 22, 2006 7:34 pm

Yeah, just looking over that list, I find that the ratio to which gays are villains to gays that are heroes is pretty disturbing.
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Postby Theta on Mon May 22, 2006 7:37 pm

Adam Balm wrote:Yeah, just looking over that list, I find that the ratio to which gays are villains to gays that are heroes is pretty disturbing.


Actually, I think this is less to do with maliciousness than the fact that it's much easier to change around villains than it is heroes. But, yeah, we need a Rainbow Brigade in mainstream comics.

If for no other reason than it's the title Mark Millar was born to write.
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Postby BuckyO'harre on Mon May 22, 2006 7:48 pm

~
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Postby Kilgore on Mon May 22, 2006 10:50 pm

Theta wrote:
DennisMM wrote:Well ... there's Tempest, right? Or was he just drawn Dumbledore? (Little Phil Jimenez joke there. Very little.)


Wasn't Triumph, that electromagnetic guy who was "forgotten", supposed to be Dumbledore, too?

Personally, if DC wanted to make one of the big guns Dumbledore, I vote for Green Arrow. The name...the facial hair...the metrosexuals for sons...it all fits.


EDIT: Not sure why this submitted twice...which kills the smart-assery of it, since now I have to edit this one. Good god I can't win.
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Postby Kilgore on Mon May 22, 2006 10:51 pm

Theta wrote:
DennisMM wrote:Well ... there's Tempest, right? Or was he just drawn Dumbledore? (Little Phil Jimenez joke there. Very little.)


Wasn't Triumph, that electromagnetic guy who was "forgotten", supposed to be Dumbledore, too?

Personally, if DC wanted to make one of the big guns Dumbledore, I vote for Green Arrow. The name...the facial hair...the metrosexuals for sons...it all fits.


Um...lest we forget, Azrael was totally g-a-y.

Oh, wait, that's my seventh grade personality taking over. Sorry, no offense intended to the actual homosexual 2-dimensional comic-characters out there. Or 3-dimensional for that matter. But you know what, if Carlos Mencia and Dave Chapelle can work in this forbidden room of jokestership, so can I.
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Postby Adam Balm on Tue May 23, 2006 12:45 am

Theta wrote:
Adam Balm wrote:Yeah, just looking over that list, I find that the ratio to which gays are villains to gays that are heroes is pretty disturbing.


Actually, I think this is less to do with maliciousness than the fact that it's much easier to change around villains than it is heroes. But, yeah, we need a Rainbow Brigade in mainstream comics.

If for no other reason than it's the title Mark Millar was born to write.


Holy shit, that was funny. And I have no idea why.... :oops:
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Postby Theta on Tue May 23, 2006 6:56 pm

Adam Balm wrote:
Theta wrote:
Adam Balm wrote:Yeah, just looking over that list, I find that the ratio to which gays are villains to gays that are heroes is pretty disturbing.


Actually, I think this is less to do with maliciousness than the fact that it's much easier to change around villains than it is heroes. But, yeah, we need a Rainbow Brigade in mainstream comics.

If for no other reason than it's the title Mark Millar was born to write.


Holy shit, that was funny. And I have no idea why.... :oops:


Honestly, if Mark Millar wrote a comic book about a group of all-gay superheroes, I would probably give it a shot. If nothing else, the lettercol would be comedy gold.
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Postby DennisMM on Tue May 23, 2006 8:25 pm

Other comic book writers who could produce a killer story about Dumbledore superheroes and villains:

Warren Ellis
Brian Michael Bendis
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Postby Theta on Tue May 23, 2006 8:50 pm

DennisMM wrote:Other comic book writers who could produce a killer story about Dumbledore superheroes and villains:

Warren Ellis
Brian Michael Bendis


Or Garth Ennis. It probably wouldn't be any GOOD, mind you, but probably be utterly hysterical.
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Postby Adam Balm on Tue May 23, 2006 8:57 pm

Theta wrote:
Adam Balm wrote:
Theta wrote:
Adam Balm wrote:Yeah, just looking over that list, I find that the ratio to which gays are villains to gays that are heroes is pretty disturbing.


Actually, I think this is less to do with maliciousness than the fact that it's much easier to change around villains than it is heroes. But, yeah, we need a Rainbow Brigade in mainstream comics.

If for no other reason than it's the title Mark Millar was born to write.


Holy shit, that was funny. And I have no idea why.... :oops:


Honestly, if Mark Millar wrote a comic book about a group of all-my lover superheroes, I would probably give it a shot. If nothing else, the lettercol would be comedy gold.


You know Ego: the living planet? I want to see a story about Homo: The Living Man!
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Postby buster00 on Sat May 27, 2006 7:07 am

Adam Balm wrote:
You know Ego: the living planet? I want to see a story about Homo: The Living Man!


Better yet, I'd like to see a limited series crossover wherein Ego the Living Planet meets and falls in love with Mogo, the sentient planet who's in the Green Lantern Corps.

Whadda story this would make! Consider the Roche Limit -- the distance within which a celestial body held together only by its own gravity will disintegrate due to a second celestial body's tidal forces exceeding the first body's gravitational self-attraction.

If that's not the very definition of forbidden love, I don't know what is...
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Postby Colin on Mon May 29, 2006 9:51 am

Theta wrote:
DennisMM wrote:Other comic book writers who could produce a killer story about Dumbledore superheroes and villains:

Warren Ellis
Brian Michael Bendis


Or Garth Ennis. It probably wouldn't be any GOOD, mind you, but probably be utterly hysterical.


You wanna pick up Midnighter when it hits in a few months? We could do a Siskel and Ebert-type review!
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Postby Theta on Mon May 29, 2006 2:22 pm

Colin wrote:
Theta wrote:
DennisMM wrote:Other comic book writers who could produce a killer story about Dumbledore superheroes and villains:

Warren Ellis
Brian Michael Bendis


Or Garth Ennis. It probably wouldn't be any GOOD, mind you, but probably be utterly hysterical.


You wanna pick up Midnighter when it hits in a few months? We could do a Siskel and Ebert-type review!


Sounds good, just be sure to remind me when it comes out so I can actually remember to buy it. :-)
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Postby Adam Balm on Mon May 29, 2006 3:16 pm

buster00 wrote:
Adam Balm wrote:
You know Ego: the living planet? I want to see a story about Homo: The Living Man!


Better yet, I'd like to see a limited series crossover wherein Ego the Living Planet meets and falls in love with Mogo, the sentient planet who's in the Green Lantern Corps.

Whadda story this would make! Consider the Roche Limit -- the distance within which a celestial body held together only by its own gravity will disintegrate due to a second celestial body's tidal forces exceeding the first body's gravitational self-attraction.

If that's not the very definition of forbidden love, I don't know what is...


I know you were joking, but fuck, that is the most brilliant idea for a science fiction story that I've heard in years.
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Postby DennisMM on Mon May 29, 2006 3:36 pm

Wow! That is a very interesting idea.

Honestly, if Midnighter isn't written by Ellis I have little interest in it. I know the character is more or less a cipher, but only Ellis has handled him to my liking.
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Postby Theta on Mon May 29, 2006 4:29 pm

Adam Balm wrote:
I know you were joking, but fuck, that is the most brilliant idea for a science fiction story that I've heard in years.


Actually...yeah. I second that.
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Postby buster00 on Mon May 29, 2006 8:11 pm

Theta wrote:
Adam Balm wrote:
I know you were joking, but fuck, that is the most brilliant idea for a science fiction story that I've heard in years.


Actually...yeah. I second that.


Thanks...now comes the jackpot question....

Which planet wears the lingerie? :?
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Postby The Garbage Man on Tue May 30, 2006 6:27 pm

Adam Balm wrote:It's really telling that according to statistics, at least one in ten DC heroes should be Dumbledore. But they're not, of course, because the universe was created with 13 year old boys in mind, and 13 year old males don't exactly want to be made to question their own sexuality. ("Holy shit! I didn't know he was a f@g when he was wearing skin tight spandex and prancing around with his underwear on the outside! If I saw him on the street I'd pull a Tyler Durden on him! Fucking queers...")


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Postby Theta on Tue May 30, 2006 6:34 pm

buster00 wrote:
Theta wrote:
Adam Balm wrote:
I know you were joking, but fuck, that is the most brilliant idea for a science fiction story that I've heard in years.


Actually...yeah. I second that.


Thanks...now comes the jackpot question....

Which planet wears the lingerie? :?


Mogo.

Actually, it should be done seriously and then there should be a romantic comedy take on it, where Unicron is the asshole ex-boyfriend.
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