DC To Kill Off [REDACTED]? (SPOILERS!)

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Postby RogueScribner on Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:59 pm

Batman is invincible. If Joel Schumacher couldn't killl him, no one can!!!
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Postby Nordling on Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:00 pm

If I was upset about anything, it would be the renumbering of the issues. That's just a cynical publishing ploy, and it denies everything that's happened before and DC obviously hopes that it'll sell more because of the questionable collecting value. That's more important than the death of a main character.

Comic publishers are falling in the same trap as music producers, film studios, even other forms of publishing... issue publishing is a dinosaur. They'll figure that out eventually, I suppose.
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Postby The Vicar on Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:03 pm

Nordling wrote:If I was upset about anything, it would be the renumbering of the issues. That's just a cynical publishing ploy, and it denies everything that's happened before and DC obviously hopes that it'll sell more because of the questionable collecting value. That's more important than the death of a main character.

Comic publishers are falling in the same trap as music producers, film studios, even other forms of publishing... issue publishing is a dinosaur. They'll figure that out eventually, I suppose.


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Postby DennisMM on Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:08 pm

Leckomaniac wrote:But the thing is people dont NEED to read both companies to have knowledge of Batmans death and Caps death. The average Marvel reader is going to hear about this and go:

"WTF? DC are just trying to capture the same press Marvel got when they killed Cap."

They know the outcome and not the circumstances, but that is enough in this era of message boards. I have a feeling that this criticism/debate will dominate the message boards.


That's really pathetic. Not your reasoning, which I see as quite valid. It's that fandom has fallen to this point. There's been forty years of arguing DC/Marvel and even about companies' publishing plans, but ...

I don't belong in this age.

Issue publishing is a dinosaur, but I don't think it will be replaced by TPs any more than television programs will be replaced by the release of 4-DVD sets twice a year. People want a periodic fix. It'll have to be downloads or subscription access to sites containing the material, I think.
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Postby Leckomaniac on Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:23 pm

Wow. I could not disagree more with the statement that "issue publishing is a dinosaur".

I contend that if publishing schedules were maintained more strictly and if the publishers would stop driving prices up to make it harder to collect monthly than you would see an even bigger boom than what we are currently seeing.

TPB have their place in the market, but they will never replace the monthly format.
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Postby Nordling on Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:27 pm

DennisMM wrote:Issue publishing is a dinosaur, but I don't think it will be replaced by TPs any more than television programs will be replaced by the release of 4-CD sets twice a year. People want a periodic fix. It'll have to be downloads or subscription access to sites containing the material, I think.


I would love for this to happen. It might even get me back into comics again.
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Postby DennisMM on Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:44 pm

Most monthlies make precious little money even at inflated prices. They need a format that can transmit the material to the audience but while reducing the costs of printing and distribution. Digital is the only way I see to do that. Perhaps subscribers would be offered a discount on TPs of titles to which they subscribe or to any print collections coming from a site they pay for.

I love print media. Books and magazines are portable and don't require batteries. I wish comics would always be available as periodical publications. I don't think it's going to happen without even larger price hikes. It will take time, but I think comics will have to learn to remain a print medium. Perhaps two or three X-books will be combined into a single title, with all the story content you'd get buying them separately. Wolverine and Wolverine: Origins are a natural pair. JLA and JSA might do well together.

The only other option I see is to have more advertising. Lots of magazines have close 50 percent ad content. Make all comics 48 pages with a 24-page story. They problem is finding advertisers who want to push their products in a comic book.
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Postby Theta on Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:21 pm

I think this avoids the obvious question of what's happening to superhero comics in the first place, which is simple: they're dying.

A book is lucky to sell 100,000 copies, these days. What's keeping DC afloat is being part of a huge conglomerate and what's keeping Marvel alive is the movies and cartoons, with all the attendant merchandise sales they generate.

But how long can this last? They're down to putting out "alternate" versions of all the "toys" and they're making busts of ridiculously obscure characters. I saw a bust of Terrax the other day. Terrax! Do you know who Terrax is? What he does? Without going to Wikipedia?

And we all know the superhero movie craze is NOT going to last forever. Don't get me wrong, "Iron Man" looks amazing but can you say you look forward to the in-house productions Marvel's putting out, or that you enjoyed the cheapo cartoons they wanted $15 a DVD for?

What we're seeing is the death throes. DC is apparently going to hammer the reset button good and hard; I keep hearing that they're going to make Big Blue, Wondy, GA, et. al. into the New New Gods and all the kid sidekicks are going to the big leagues. Marvel, meanwhile, just keeps hammering out those crossovers; they've got a few huge ones planned and the X-Books just finished "Endangered Species" in order to swing into "Messiah Complex." And Spidey is apparently going to be single and with a secret identity again after "One More Attempt to Make Us Care About Aunt May."



Me, I'm more interested in what happens after. I don't think Superman, Batman, etc. will ever really leave print in my lifetime, but I also suspect that the printed comic book is going to be a rarity in a decade's time.
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Postby so sorry on Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:33 pm

Theta wrote:But how long can this last? They're down to putting out "alternate" versions of all the "toys" and they're making busts of ridiculously obscure characters. I saw a bust of Terrax the other day. Terrax! Do you know who Terrax is? What he does? Without going to Wikipedia?


I love Wiki-ing comic book characters... its so rediculous to read the 'facts' about a character in that format.

And apparently Terrax has been killed a few times himself(itself?), so that begs the bigger (and I'm sure already debated) question: do ANY superheroes ever truely die?
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Postby Keepcoolbutcare on Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:43 pm

so sorry wrote:do ANY superheroes ever truely die?


like gods, they die when people stop believing in them.
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Postby The Vicar on Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:05 pm

Keepcoolbutcare wrote:
so sorry wrote:do ANY superheroes ever truely die?


like gods, they die when people stop believing in them.


Or stop paying to read about them....pretty much the same thing, nu?
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Postby DennisMM on Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:21 pm

Of course, I know about Terrax the Tamer - but I would, wouldn't I? ;) Terrax, Firelord, Air-Walker, Nova, the big kahuna. My brain is telling me there is a sixth, but if that's true I can't dredge up the name. I remember The Punisher, but that's a different category.

Yes, it's ridiculous that Marvel is making its money off that sort of licensing, but I don't expect any more from them or DC in the current market. They've found an extremely niche market and will exploit it. It's why you can say there will be only 666 (I believe) copies of the Milk and Cheese action figures I just bought. You have good reason to imagine that's a profitable item becuase M&K nuts will pay a high price for the piece. When you can buy a full-scale replica of Beowulf's sword, almost anything is viable as a tie-in.

Everyone talks about comics coming out of their shells and appealing to adults. That's what was supposed to save the industry. What we got was better-writtten and sometimes better drawn superhero and other action-related comics with better printing. Marvel isn't publishing Joe Sacco and DC hasn't gone heavily into something like Seven Miles a Second because they can't seem to draw the audience. American manga readers seem far more interested in the sort of fantasy the Japanese present than the traditional American forms.

sosorry, superheroes die when their deaths make a story work and reviving them will invalidate it. Barry Allen is still dead. His spirit has appeared briefly, but he's dead. A number of the Justice Society are dead, dead, dead. But that's not the same thing as killing a major, active character.
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Postby MasterWhedon on Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:23 pm

NOW W/ REDACTED!!
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Postby Theta on Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:39 pm

DennisMM wrote:What we got was better-writtten and sometimes better drawn superhero and other action-related comics with better printing.


This is a pretty debatable statement. A LOT of comics today really feel sophomoric and immature, even when they're trying to be all grown up. Among the notable offenders are Judd Winick, Brad Meltzer, Brian Michael Bendis and Mark Millar. Granted it's as much the fault of editorial as these guys, and there are days when I wonder if Quesada and DiDio have bothered to crack a book outside their field, but still, why do these guys keep getting work?

Honestly, if there was a real improvement in the writing, I don't think comics would be in the hole they're in right now. The fact that I actually prefer reading "Spirit" reprints to most modern comics these days is pretty damning.

Also, the mid-'90s was marked by DC chasing the "Gen X" demographic and that was pretty fucking miserable. Suddenly Arsenal's running around with some piercing and a big ol' man-mop, Kyle Rainer and Connor Hawke are introduced and promptly taken nowhere (although Hawke is a welcome oasis of calm in the DCU, even if editorial doesn't want to let it be known he's bi), and the only good book to come out of all of this was "Nightwing", which was mostly just a straightforward superhero book about Dick Grayson beating people up.

sosorry, superheroes die when their deaths make a story work and reviving them will invalidate it. Barry Allen is still dead. His spirit has appeared briefly, but he's dead. A number of the Justice Society are dead, dead, dead. But that's not the same thing as killing a major, active character.


Well, Barry actually got turned into the lightning bolt that made him the Flash (and also somehow sent to the future to bang Iris and create the Tornado Twins) but yeah, they DID ultimately kill him off. Still, they couldn't let Wally be, either.
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Postby Theta on Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:41 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:NOW W/ REDACTED!!


What the hell? Didn't you quit? Aren't you not a mod anymore? Don't you have a fancy Hollywood job now? When did I start phrasing everything in the form of a question?
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Postby DennisMM on Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:55 pm

Theta wrote:
sosorry, superheroes die when their deaths make a story work and reviving them will invalidate it. Barry Allen is still dead. His spirit has appeared briefly, but he's dead. A number of the Justice Society are dead, dead, dead. But that's not the same thing as killing a major, active character.


Well, Barry actually got turned into the lightning bolt that made him the Flash (and also somehow sent to the future to bang Iris and create the Tornado Twins) but yeah, they DID ultimately kill him off. Still, they couldn't let Wally be, either.


Just me running off at the mouth.
Barry went to the future first, shortly after he was acquitted of murdering Professor Zoom. Apparently he got into the first crisis after having fathered the possibly no-longer Tornado Twins. (With all of the massive changes in DC future continuity I'm not making any bets this week as to whether Dawn and Don ever had even artificially induced super powers. In a recent issue of Flash Iris actually said her future timeline is changing because of the fallout from Infinite Crisis.) Barry's time-loop was an interesting idea, but once Waid presented him as being in the Speed Force that version seemed to supercede the Secret Origins Annual.

I think Wally was always meant as a token sacrifice. DC editors and Johns talked about his death as if it was unavoidable. To me that suggested something was up; it seemed unnatural for them to play it as they did. I suspect the plan was to give Bart a book and watch the pot to see if it boiled. If it failed they had Wally available as a backup. I'm still not sure what the whole lightning ring story meant, though.
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Postby Leckomaniac on Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:56 pm

Theta wrote:
DennisMM wrote:What we got was better-writtten and sometimes better drawn superhero and other action-related comics with better printing.


This is a pretty debatable statement. A LOT of comics today really feel sophomoric and immature, even when they're trying to be all grown up. Among the notable offenders are Judd Winick, Brad Meltzer, Brian Michael Bendis and Mark Millar. Granted it's as much the fault of editorial as these guys, and there are days when I wonder if Quesada and DiDio have bothered to crack a book outside their field, but still, why do these guys keep getting work?

Honestly, if there was a real improvement in the writing, I don't think comics would be in the hole they're in right now. The fact that I actually prefer reading "Spirit" reprints to most modern comics these days is pretty damning.

Also, the mid-'90s was marked by DC chasing the "Gen X" demographic and that was pretty fucking miserable. Suddenly Arsenal's running around with some piercing and a big ol' man-mop, Kyle Rainer and Connor Hawke are introduced and promptly taken nowhere (although Hawke is a welcome oasis of calm in the DCU, even if editorial doesn't want to let it be known he's bi), and the only good book to come out of all of this was "Nightwing", which was mostly just a straightforward superhero book about Dick Grayson beating people up.

sosorry, superheroes die when their deaths make a story work and reviving them will invalidate it. Barry Allen is still dead. His spirit has appeared briefly, but he's dead. A number of the Justice Society are dead, dead, dead. But that's not the same thing as killing a major, active character.


Well, Barry actually got turned into the lightning bolt that made him the Flash (and also somehow sent to the future to bang Iris and create the Tornado Twins) but yeah, they DID ultimately kill him off. Still, they couldn't let Wally be, either.


Well, that is because Judd Winnick is the devil.

There ARE some "immature" superhero comics, but there are some amazing superhero comics as well. I think All-Star Superman is heaven. I think Ex Machina is brilliant (Wildstorm counts damn it!). Iron Fist, Brubakers initial run on DD, Captain America, Silver Surfer: Requiem was an instant classic, The Ultimates, though late, was spectacular...

from my count we are doing A-OK. I love the current state of comics, especially the talent. My only gripe is the rise of "event" comics, but that was bound to happen. It happened in film and it happened in TV (event television blows extra hard).
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Postby MasterWhedon on Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:02 pm

Theta wrote:
MasterWhedon wrote:NOW W/ REDACTED!!


What the hell? Didn't you quit? Aren't you not a mod anymore? Don't you have a fancy Hollywood job now? When did I start phrasing everything in the form of a question?

It's a temporary return (or so I tell myself) while I oversee the Zonies.
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Postby DennisMM on Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:04 pm

Not sure why everyone hates Winnick so much. His first couple of GA stories were pretty solid. After that I'd say he was in typical "modern" superhero territory, just a bit smarmy. I dropped the book in the 50s, I think.
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Postby Leckomaniac on Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:14 pm

DennisMM wrote:Not sure why everyone hates Winnick so much. His first couple of GA stories were pretty solid. After that I'd say he was in typical "modern" superhero territory, just a bit smarmy. I dropped the book in the 50s, I think.


Gosh I can't stand the guy. He just has the worst grasp on social/political writing...and yet he tries to infuse it into his work.

He is probably one of the few writers that I actively despise.
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Postby Fawst on Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:39 pm

How's this for blowing your minds?

The last non-GN Batman comic I purchased was... KNIGHTFALL. Shocker. And basically the ONLY Superman comics I've ever owned were the Death of.. issues.

I love the IDEA of these characters, but I don't read them. I haven't for years. At this point, I actually find this story intriguing. And I wouldn't mind buying a reboot Bats #1. But I'm not a major comics fan anymore. I used to be that kid that had to buy every #1 that Marvel/DC/Valiant/Image pumped out. It all started with the fucking Infinity Gauntlet. On through Silver Sable, Wonderman, Bloodshot, Wetworks, etc. Any gatefold, die-cut, hologram, poly-bagged comic book with the character # followed by a 1, I bought it.

So I'm giving you the NON-comic fan perspective. I used to be a major fan, followed a few series religiously, fell out of touch, and now this idea has me interested. I KNOW it's a gimmick, and that's why I'm ok with it. But really, much like the Simpsons, how long can these VERY HUMAN characters last? Someday, if they actually want to do something honest, they will kill some off, continue the name with a new player, and let it be.

Ahem.

Fuck DC for this ploy, by the way. Because in my case, it's gonna fucking work. The fuckers.
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Postby instant_karma on Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:44 pm

Man, this is lame. It'd be like The Zone killing off Dino in a bid to attract more readers.

Hmmmmm...
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Postby Theta on Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:45 pm

DennisMM wrote:Not sure why everyone hates Winnick so much. His first couple of GA stories were pretty solid. After that I'd say he was in typical "modern" superhero territory, just a bit smarmy. I dropped the book in the 50s, I think.


You didn't miss much. Mostly Ollie banging Black Lightning's niece (and getting her killed) and Mia getting all preachy about HIV.

My problem with Winnick is A) his soapbox and B) his tendency towards splat and sadism. "Green Arrow/Black Canary" had Dinah keeping Ollie's body in deep freeze for a MONTH and only then was an autopsy done, an autopsy we saw in lurid detail. It didn't disgust me, but it DID annoy me, especially since the scene featured Dr. Mid-Nite, who unless things have gotten REALLY whacky, is Dinah's ex. Um, isn't that a pretty weird psychodynamic?

Not to mention the hilarious straight-woman-against-man-hatin'-lesbians subtext that Winnick probably doesn't realize he put in there (or was dictated by editorial since they won't let that fucking Amazons plot just die.)

Don't get me wrong, occasionally the guy has great moments. I'm willing to forgive him a lot for the hysterical moment in the first "Outsiders" arc where Luthor tells the Joker essentially that Batman will never love him. But he's so consistently either preachy or lurid that it just becomes laughable.
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Postby DennisMM on Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:20 pm

Except for the recent GA/BC specials and GA/BC #1 I don't think I've read any Winnick in years. Having Mid-Nite do the autopsy was pretty weird, but I suppose he's considered the hero-scene medical man. Winnick may not have even thought about the sexual history, because I didn't feel any tension there. Sloppy business.
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Postby Deathlok2001 on Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:53 pm

Ok, if this actually happens & DC $#@!% up my run of Batman, then thats it. No more Batman for me. I refuse to purchase a Batman #1 that replaces the original book.

What will happen to Detective Comics?
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Postby DennisMM on Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:14 pm

What if they roll over the Batman numbering into another Batman book with a similar title, as DC did 20 years ago with Superman/The Adventures of Superman?
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Postby The Ginger Man on Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:56 pm

Now....A bit of possible DARK KNIGHT MOVIE SPOILERS here...

but isn't it rumored that Batman fakes his death in the movie? Marvel has been shoehorning their comic books into their movies for years. Maybe DC is finally getting on board with that.

Even if this plot doesnt entirely mirror the film's, this is obviously being done to play off The Dark Knight hype, which is fine. I'm ok with silly stories like this, no matter the corporate reason for doing them, as long as they're done reasonably well. Hell, I'll probably read it, and I'm not a big monthly issue fan.

And you know, if Dick Grayson becomes the new Batman, than I think it'll be worth it. He was always groomed for the mantle, but since comic characters are technically immortal, it's a mantle he'd never really get to wear. I'd like to see Dick put on the cowl and BE Batman. And not in a "Oh, I'm not as good as Bruce was, still have more to learn, he'll always be my father," kinda way. I want Dick to be the best fucking Batman we've seen in years. Make the story count, DC! Make it worth our while!

Also...it would be cool if Dick is this amazing kick-ass Batman, that way, when Bruce returns (as he inevitably will....it's no coincidence that Ra's Al Ghul and his Lazarus Pits are returning about 6 months before DC kills off Bruce Wayne), it'll be an even better story. Does Bruce retake the role that Dick so perfectly fits? It's always great when those two go head-to-head.

But that's just my feelings on the subject. Hmmm...wow....I'm more excited about this than I expected.
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Postby Theta on Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:29 pm

Eh, Dick wore the cowl and hated it. He's been trying to get out from under Bruce's shadow for years.

I'm betting, if this all isn't a setup, that it's actually Tim Drake who takes the cowl. In "Titans" they hint at this, and it comes up with regularity that Tim is apparently the best Robin ever, and becoming more like Bruce all the time.
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Postby The Ginger Man on Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:47 pm

I didnt know Dick wore the cowl. You'll have to forgive my poor collection of Batman comic knowledge. Also, isn't Tim Drake like 16 years old?
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Postby Keepcoolbutcare on Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:58 pm

instant_karma wrote:It'd be like The Zone killing off Dino in a bid to attract more readers.


we're trying to let nature take its course...

GO NATURE!
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Postby minstrel on Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:06 pm

The Ginger Man wrote:Also, isn't Tim Drake like 16 years old?


So that would make him ...

Bat Boy!!

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Postby Nordling on Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:14 pm

The Ginger Man wrote:I didnt know Dick wore the cowl.


There's a circumcision joke somewhere in there, and I'll leave it to you esteemed lot to make it.
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Postby DennisMM on Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:38 pm

I still think it will be Jason. I'm not saying he'll be Batman with the blessings of any of the Bat-family, but I think he's going to try to grab the spot one way or another. He was too obviously pissed off at meeting his alter-Earth counterpart who became Batman when that world's Bruce Wayne died.

I agree that Dick doesn't want the job. And I won't consider Tim f for no other reason than he is still less than six feet tall. He doesn't have the physical presence to be Batman unless they start padding him.
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Postby buster00 on Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:47 pm

DennisMM wrote: And I won't consider Tim f for no other reason than he is still less than six feet tall. He doesn't have the physical presence to be Batman unless they start padding him.


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Postby DennisMM on Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:06 pm

Isn't that Bluebottle?
"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." -- Noam Chomsky
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Postby ONeillSG1 on Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:13 pm

DennisMM wrote:Isn't that Bluebottle?


SHHH!!

Don't give away his secret identity!!
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Postby Theta on Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:49 pm

The Ginger Man wrote:I didnt know Dick wore the cowl. You'll have to forgive my poor collection of Batman comic knowledge. Also, isn't Tim Drake like 16 years old?


For a short time during the "Knightfall" malarkey. He also tried to be more Batmanish on the Outsiders, and that didn't work. He tried to be more Batmanish to get back ON the Outsiders, and failed miserably. Plus he's going to be featured in the new Titans relaunch, so that pretty much rules him out.
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Postby Theta on Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:50 pm

DennisMM wrote:I agree that Dick doesn't want the job. And I won't consider Tim f for no other reason than he is still less than six feet tall. He doesn't have the physical presence to be Batman unless they start padding him.


I can see it now: some street-level pusher going "Hey, weren't you taller the last time you beat me senseless and scared me so badly I shat my pants?"
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Postby The Ginger Man on Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:41 pm

Theta wrote:
The Ginger Man wrote:I didnt know Dick wore the cowl. You'll have to forgive my poor collection of Batman comic knowledge. Also, isn't Tim Drake like 16 years old?


For a short time during the "Knightfall" malarkey. He also tried to be more Batmanish on the Outsiders, and that didn't work. He tried to be more Batmanish to get back ON the Outsiders, and failed miserably. Plus he's going to be featured in the new Titans relaunch, so that pretty much rules him out.


Well, dammit. I hate that. Why does Nightwing have to fail at being Batman? I'd much rather see a story where Dick Grayson finally gets out from under Bruce Wayne's shadow, than a story where Knightfall is basically retreaded with Jason Todd playing the role of Azrael.
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Postby DennisMM on Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:13 pm

Theta wrote:
DennisMM wrote:I agree that Dick doesn't want the job. And I won't consider Tim f for no other reason than he is still less than six feet tall. He doesn't have the physical presence to be Batman unless they start padding him.


I can see it now: some street-level pusher going "Hey, weren't you taller the last time you beat me senseless and scared me so badly I shat my pants?"


Yeah, yeah, wiseass. A muscular but slimmer, shorter guy is obviously not Batman to anyone who knows him. If they're trying to keep Batman's death secret they'll have to be very careful; Gordon would not fall for Tim's pretense the way he was fooled by Azrael.
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Postby Deathlok2001 on Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:17 pm

Honestly, the more I hear about what DC is going to do after this final crisis, the less I like it. I thought this crisis was going to lead to the great disaster & Kamandi complete with the "real" OMAC. Now that would be cool. DC has so many great characters, but they choose to use them in inappropriate ways. DC should never ever kill off Batman or the New Gods. Those are freakin classic characters.

But I do LOVE what Marvel is doing. I read about 25-30 Marvel books a month.

Lets see:

Avengers
AVENGERS INITIATIVE
Amazing Spidey
Captain America
CAPTAIN MARVEL
Classic Avengers
Daredevil
Fantastic 4
Ghost Rider
Hulk
Iron Fist
Marvel Comics Presents
Mighty Avengers
Moon Knight
Ms Marvel
Nova
She Hulk
Thor
T-bolts
Ultimate Spidey
Ultimate FF
Ultimate Powers

Annhiliation The Conquest
Super villain team up
Howard The Duck
Omega the Unknown
World War Hulk
SILVER SURFER IN THY NAME
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Postby Leckomaniac on Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:21 am

Things just got more interesting:

From LITG (the guy who broke the story in the first place):

Obviously, HUGE fucking spoilers.

Last week's rumour about Batman kicking the Batbucket to be replaced by a sidekick is kicking up steam. As Valerie D'Orazio picks up on, the original plan was for all the main DC icons to die and be elevated to the status of New Gods as part of the Fifth World, their sidekicks filling the roles they left behind.

However, that plan was abandoned internally at DC and reduced to a Bat-storyline by Grant Morrison. So look for Bruce Wayne New God to go head-to-head with Darkseid in "Final Crisis."
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Postby Theta on Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:58 pm

Leckomaniac wrote:Things just got more interesting:

From LITG (the guy who broke the story in the first place):

Obviously, HUGE fucking spoilers.

Last week's rumour about Batman kicking the Batbucket to be replaced by a sidekick is kicking up steam. As Valerie D'Orazio picks up on, the original plan was for all the main DC icons to die and be elevated to the status of New Gods as part of the Fifth World, their sidekicks filling the roles they left behind.

However, that plan was abandoned internally at DC and reduced to a Bat-storyline by Grant Morrison. So look for Bruce Wayne New God to go head-to-head with Darkseid in "Final Crisis."


:::facepalmheaddesk:::

Dan DiDio Must Die.
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Postby Theta on Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:59 pm

The Ginger Man wrote:
Theta wrote:
The Ginger Man wrote:I didnt know Dick wore the cowl. You'll have to forgive my poor collection of Batman comic knowledge. Also, isn't Tim Drake like 16 years old?


For a short time during the "Knightfall" malarkey. He also tried to be more Batmanish on the Outsiders, and that didn't work. He tried to be more Batmanish to get back ON the Outsiders, and failed miserably. Plus he's going to be featured in the new Titans relaunch, so that pretty much rules him out.


Well, dammit. I hate that. Why does Nightwing have to fail at being Batman? I'd much rather see a story where Dick Grayson finally gets out from under Bruce Wayne's shadow, than a story where Knightfall is basically retreaded with Jason Todd playing the role of Azrael.


Well, the story did feature Batman saying "I'm glad you're your own man instead of just a carbon copy of me", so I guess there's some validation there.
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Postby Fawst on Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:14 pm

Ok, I missed something...

How/when did Jason Todd come back from being beat half to death by the Joker with a crowbar, then being blown completely to death by a bomb?
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Postby Theta on Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:47 pm

Fawst wrote:Ok, I missed something...

How/when did Jason Todd come back from being beat half to death by the Joker with a crowbar, then being blown completely to death by a bomb?


Superboy punched the walls of reality.

No. I am not joking. I wish I were. But I'm not.
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Postby Chairman Kaga on Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:00 pm

Theta wrote:
Fawst wrote:Ok, I missed something...

How/when did Jason Todd come back from being beat half to death by the Joker with a crowbar, then being blown completely to death by a bomb?


Superboy punched the walls of reality.

No. I am not joking. I wish I were. But I'm not.

Plus they retro-fitted him into the Hush storyline when Clayface was pretending to be Jason Todd back from the dead....except now for half the time it was Jason and then he switched places with Clayface.
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Postby DennisMM on Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:54 pm

Leckomaniac wrote:Things just got more interesting:

From LITG (the guy who broke the story in the first place):

Obviously, HUGE fucking spoilers.

Last week's rumour about Batman kicking the Batbucket to be replaced by a sidekick is kicking up steam. As Valerie D'Orazio picks up on, the original plan was for all the main DC icons to die and be elevated to the status of New Gods as part of the Fifth World, their sidekicks filling the roles they left behind.

However, that plan was abandoned internally at DC and reduced to a Bat-storyline by Grant Morrison. So look for Bruce Wayne New God to go head-to-head with Darkseid in "Final Crisis."


Now that's just silly. Dan, Dan, Dan. You showed such promise.
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Postby bluebottle on Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:30 pm

DennisMM wrote:Isn't that Bluebottle?


no, THIS is me:

Image
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Postby buster00 on Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:43 pm

Leckomaniac wrote:Last week's rumour about Batman kicking the Batbucket to be replaced by a sidekick is kicking up steam. As Valerie D'Orazio picks up on, the original plan was for all the main DC icons to die and be elevated to the status of New Gods as part of the Fifth World, their sidekicks filling the roles they left behind.

However, that plan was abandoned internally at DC and reduced to a Bat-storyline by Grant Morrison. So look for Bruce Wayne New God to go head-to-head with Darkseid in "Final Crisis."


As if I needed one, this is another good reason for me to hate the new gods.
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