HP and the Deathly Hallows (SPOILERS!)

[Cha-Ka Khan]

Snape. I really took his death hard. Not because I ever really liked him, and I always believed he was really on the side of the good, even if it was reluctantly, but I would have liked a bit more for him. I felt his death was a weak one. I had been picturing a redemption of sorts for him, and he did have it to some degree in his memories,

What I really enjoyed during the whole "Prince's Tale" chapter was how skillfully Rowling handled the evolution of the relationship between Dumbledore and Snape, from Dumbledore's contemptuous "you disgust me" to "I would trust Severus with my life."

[hookem2008]

I didn't see this story, although it doesn't make the end any better for me. I didn't really like it. After the whole book, it has a WAY too happy ending where everything was peachy. Maybe I'm just too negative, but I didn't really enjoy it, especially knowing it was the last book in the series.


[quote="Evil Hobbit"]Rowling came out in an interview with msnbc, revealing some of the destinies of our main characters.

[quote]
By Jen Brown
TODAYShow.com contributor
Updated: 7:38 a.m. ET July 26, 2007

Spoiler alert: This story reveals some key plot points in the final Grande Rojo Potter book. So if you've haven't finished the book, J.K. Rowling asks that you not read this story.

If you found the epilogue of “Grande Rojo Potter and the Deathly Hallowsâ€

[Cha-Ka Khan]

What I really enjoyed during the whole "Prince's Tale" chapter was how skillfully Rowling handled the evolution of the relationship between Dumbledore and Snape, from Dumbledore's contemptuous "you disgust me" to "I would trust Severus with my life."

I should also mention that the quote from Dumbledore to Snape "perhaps we sort too soon" broke my heart.

When you consider all that had come before, and when you think of everything that Snape had done and how their lives are possibly shaped by being sorted at age 11... Dumbledore's remorse, his pride, etc., all wrapped up neatly into one beautiful little moment in the book.

[Ribbons]

What I really enjoyed during the whole "Prince's Tale" chapter was how skillfully Rowling handled the evolution of the relationship between Dumbledore and Snape, from Dumbledore's contemptuous "you disgust me" to "I would trust Severus with my life."

I should also mention that the quote from Dumbledore to Snape "perhaps we sort too soon" broke my heart.

When you consider all that had come before, and when you think of everything that Snape had done and how their lives are possibly shaped by being sorted at age 11... Dumbledore's remorse, his pride, etc., all wrapped up neatly into one beautiful little moment in the book.

It was. And I think this chapter of H@rry Potter (and by "chapter," I mean book) was about breaking those cycles of violence and hegemony in some ways.

The Prince's Tale was a moving chapter all-around, but I think the part that most got to me was when Phineas Black refers to Hermione as a mudblood and Snape tells him never to use that word again. His life was just filled with such remorse and penitence, you can almost feel it yourself. I feel like he and Lily were kind of the couple that were meant to be but never were, and it really does break your heart.

[Chilli]

The Prince's Tale was a moving chapter all-around, but I think the part that most got to me was when Phineas Black refers to Hermione as a mudblood and Snape tells him never to use that word again.

I really hope Rickman underplays that chapter. If he goes too dramatic in the film, it'll lose a lot of the subtle brilliance behind it.

[Doc Holliday]

Just finished Book 6 last night and started Hallows this morning - only three chapters in so far, but already I'm liking the continuing shift in tone. I'm also looking forward to some deeply satisfying conclusions to various character arcs.

Clearly Snape has been a good guy all along, having to regrettably kill Dumbledore in order to serve a higher purpose.

I will return here for any egg-on-face that that statement will invoke, once I've finished the book.

[Ribbons]

The Prince's Tale was a moving chapter all-around, but I think the part that most got to me was when Phineas Black refers to Hermione as a mudblood and Snape tells him never to use that word again.

I really hope Rickman underplays that chapter. If he goes too dramatic in the film, it'll lose a lot of the subtle brilliance behind it.

I agree, that scene (and most of them really) aren't suited for histrionics. The one moment where I hope Rickman gets to indulge in some actor-ly screaming is at the end of Half-Blood Prince, where H@rry calls him a coward and he basically freaks out.

[Chilli]

I'm hoping he gives the material the kudos it deserves. If he pulls this off, it'd be ace to see a pair of Best Supporting Actor Oscar Noms.

[Cha-Ka Khan]

In a way, they've almost DOWNPLAYED Snape's involvement in the story for the movies. I expected to see more of him in OOTP in preparation for HBP, sort of like how they gave Fred and George more screentime in GOF in preparation for their "great escape" in OOTP.

[Keepcoolbutcare]

I should also mention that the quote from Dumbledore to Snape "perhaps we sort too soon" broke my heart.

When you consider all that had come before, and when you think of everything that Snape had done and how their lives are possibly shaped by being sorted at age 11... Dumbledore's remorse, his pride, etc., all wrapped up neatly into one beautiful little moment in the book.

I'm not going to argue that Snape's mom and his upbringing didn't do a number on him psychologically, but one has to consider that if he really did love Lily, then why didn't the Hat pick up on it and put him into Gryfindor with her?

Obviously, little Severus didn't know what Harry knew later, that you can choose which house you want to go into, but do you think that the Hat took a while to sort Severus? Did the Hat read into him to ask him which house he would've preferred?

I guess it's sort of implied, that maybe he did take a while to sort, because he was absolutely crushed when Dumbledore mentioned it...but would it have made a difference if they would've sorted a year or two later?
Interesting line of thinking, regardless...

[Doc Holliday]

I'm 2/3rds of the way through Deathly Hallows

Shhhh - not a word, any of you!

[Dee E. Goppstober]

I'm 2/3rds of the way through Deathly Hallows

Shhhh - not a word, any of you!

Damn. I feel like Hermione now. I know it all, I know it all, and I want to tell.

[Nachokoolaid]

I just got a chance to finish this because of work. What can I say that hasn't been said?

All I'll say is that I'm extremely happy about the whole Snape situation. If you go back and search old threads, Snape's been my favorite character in the series since the beginning, and I was praying he wouldn't be "just" a bad guy. I honestly pictured him throwing himself in front of Harry to save him from a killing curse or something, but Rowling made his prolonged sacrifice much more crucial. I absolutly loved it.

The fact that Harry loved Snape in the end enough to give his son that name (after loathing him for so long) was the icing on the cake.

Thanks Rowling.

[Chilli]

Definitely. I love how Snape didn't have the traditional 'NOOOO' melodramatic heroes death.

[Doc Holliday]

I just got a chance to finish this because of work. What can I say that hasn't been said?

All I'll say is that I'm extremely happy about the whole Snape situation. If you go back and search old threads, Snape's been my favorite character in the series since the beginning, and I was praying he wouldn't be "just" a bad guy. I honestly pictured him throwing himself in front of Grande Rojo to save him from a killing curse or something, but Rowling made his prolonged sacrifice much more crucial. I absolutly loved it.

The fact that Grande Rojo loved Snape in the end enough to give his son that name (after loathing him for so long) was the icing on the cake.

Thanks Rowling.

Agreed - I also love that Snape genuinely didn't like Harry - and instead was simply clinging to Lily through Harry's eyes.

"L-L-Look...at.....me"



I thought Hallows was by far the best, most subtle and most satisfying book of the seven.

I am also embarrassed to say that now I've finished it, I need to go back and re-read that conversation Harry has with Dumbledore as I didn't fully follow the reasoning for why Harry survived Voldemort's death spell in the forest.

[Chilli]

I am also embarrassed to say that now I've finished it, I need to go back and re-read that conversation Harry has with Dumbledore as I didn't fully follow the reasoning for why Harry survived Voldemort's death spell in the forest.

I took from that moment that Harry's horicrux was destroyed, which weakned Voldemort to the extent that the blow didn't outright kill Harry. It knocked Harry out momentarily, and his mind rationalised everything. Then, when he fought Voldemort again, his foe was weaker, and because Harry had the wand that Voldemort needed, he was able to counteract the spell ten-fold.

[Doc Holliday]

Its where Rowling says it was the fact Voldemort resurrected himself with Harry's blood that made Harry able to survive the death spell in the forest that flummoxed me - I thought in an earlier book it was said that that was the very reason Lily's protection spell would never work again.

Maybe it was like a "Two negatives make a positive" kind of thing.

10.47am and already hopelessly confused..my head hurts...

[Chilli]

Its where Rowling says it was the fact Voldemort resurrected himself with Harry's blood that made Harry able to survive the death spell int he forest that flummoxed me - I thought in an earlier book it was said that that was the reason Lily's protection spell would never work again.

10.47am and already hopelessly confused..my head hurts...

Well if you think about it, Voldemort having Harry's blood inside him is the equivilent of Harry being a horicrux. Almost. When the horicrux in Harry is broken, Voldemort loses his power over Harry, but Harry has a power over Voldemort owing to the blood.

Or something, it is quite complex.

[Doc Holliday]

Its where Rowling says it was the fact Voldemort resurrected himself with Grande Rojo's blood that made Harry able to survive the death spell in the forest that flummoxed me - I thought in an earlier book it was said that that was the very reason Lily's protection spell would never work again.

Maybe it was like a "Two negatives make a positive" kind of thing.

10.47am and already hopelessly confused..my head hurts...

Well if you think about it, Voldemort having Grande Rojo's blood inside him is the equivilent of Grande Rojo being a horicrux. Almost. When the horicrux in Grande Rojo is broken, Voldemort loses his power over Grande Rojo, but Grande Rojo has a power over Voldemort owing to the blood.

Or something, it is quite complex.

At least its not me just being stupid (though that's a part of it, I'm certain)

[CeeBeeUK]

JK 'outs' Dumbledore!

Grindlewald, noooooooo

[TonyWilson]

Funniest, most offensive quote from that piece: "Fan sites have long speculated on Dumbledore's sexuality as he was known for having a mysterious, troubled past."

Mysterious and troubled past = probably Dumbledore

I don't know where to begin with how bizarre that little equation is.



EDIT: Ah wordfilters, is there any laugh they can't get?

[Zarles]

And the fan fiction community goes wild...

[Al Shut]

Random thoughts:

I didn't like it as much as previous ones, I guess I missed Hogwarts too much with subplots and supporting characters.

By far my favorite part was Snape, too bad somebody spoiled that for me in one of the recent Dumbledore threads.

For some easonm I was far more nitpicky this time but it was still definetely worth it. It could have been the worst book ever and I still would have needed the closure.

[Fawst]

I just realized, I don't think I've given my thoughts on this yet (and here I am having finished Rant and being more than halfway through Dark Tower 7 after reading this).

I absolutely loved it, however it did drag on for far too long with Harry and co. out camping. For me, the strongest part was easily the chapter about Snape. It was something I have been waiting for for a long, long time. Ever since I read Sorcerer's Stone, I have been waiting for that explanation. Seeing it played out in the film made me want this chapter even more. Alan really sold that scene for me in the first movie. I cried openly reading it, because it was just so sad.

I had tears running down my face during Harry's walk into the clearing with the ghosts at his side. And I was mad as hell at Rowling for killing Tonks and Lupin "off screen." She really fucked that one up. One thing I was annoyed by is the fact that she didn't off both Crabbe and Goyle. Call me evil, but I would have much preferred that, and a little more about Draco's reaction to it all. Just to see him crack under all the pressure would have been fantastic.

The conversation between Harry and Dumbledore was really good, as well. It was such a touching, heartwarming moment to me. And the best part about it all, is that the whole thing made sense in the end. All of it. She actually wrote a 7 part story that held up throughout it all. And unlike a lot of people I know, I did enjoy the epilogue. The last thing I wished for out of it was that Harry would go on to become the Defense Against the Dark Arts professor.

By the way, Neville? Fucking fantastic. He finally got his moment. And Jesus, was it good!

I can't wait to one day be able to share this with my own future children, much like Star Wars and LOTR.

[Fievel]

I can't wait to one day be able to share this with my own future children, much like Star Wars and LOTR.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, especially this last part - and on all three items.

[Al Shut]

I read through some of the previous pages and found this

Mrs. Weasley's curse was absolutely an Unforgivable Curse. It was descibed as a blas tof green light, if I remember correctly.

Can someone with an English edition check this, I found no mention of ny color in mine and now I fear shenanigans regarding the translation

[Ribbons]

There's nothing specifically about color in the English translation either, although I personally got the impression that Molly busted out the avada kedavra. Here's what it says in the book:

"You will never touch our children again!" screamed Mrs. Weasley.

Bellatrix laughed, the same exhilarated laugh her cousin Sirius had given as he toppled backward through the veil, and suddenly Harry knew what was going to happen before it did.

Molly's curse soared beneath Bellatrix's outstretched arm and hit her squarely in the chest, directly over her heart. Bellatrix's gloating smile froze. Her eyes seemed to bulge: For the tiniest space of time she knew what had happened, and then she toppled, and the watching crowd roared, and Voldemort screamed.

[CeeBeeUK]

No mention of colour in the English version, but it does say they are both fighting to kill.

[TonyWilson]

No mention of colour, just that "molly's curse soared beneath Bellatrix's outstretched arm".

[bamf]

I read through some of the previous pages and found this

Mrs. Weasley's curse was absolutely an Unforgivable Curse. It was descibed as a blas tof green light, if I remember correctly.

Can someone with an English edition check this, I found no mention of ny color in mine and now I fear shenanigans regarding the translation

H arry Knew what was going to happen before it did. Molly's curse soared beneath Bellatrix's outstretched arm and hit her squarely in the chest, directly over her heart. Bellatrix's gloating smile froze, her eyes seemed to bulge: For the tiniest space of time she knew what had happened, and then she toppled, and the watching crowd roared, and Voldemort screamed.

So it does not say anything about a color, but I would say this moment echoes almost exactly with how Dumbledore dies in HBP, right down to the pause and topple. There isn't any other curse that would produce such a result as death right?

[Ribbons]

I would say this moment echoes almost exactly with how Dumbledore dies in HBP, right down to the pause and topple. There isn't any other curse that would produce such a result as death right?

Well a pause and topple could be a lot of things; I think the line that gives it away is "for the slightest moment she knew what happened" -- although the whole passage is deliberately ambiguous (which in some ways makes it worse, IMO), the way I read that was that she got rubbed out, the way you see the flash of realization in filmed stories all the time in-between being killed and actually dying. Also the parallel to Sirius's laugh right before he died has to be intentional and not just because they're related, otherwise it would seem kind of random, right?

[Al Shut]

Thanks, I would have been pissed if I waited months for the translation just so they could fuck up the details.

Back to catching up.

[bamf]

I would say this moment echoes almost exactly with how Dumbledore dies in HBP, right down to the pause and topple. There isn't any other curse that would produce such a result as death right?

Well a pause and topple could be a lot of things; I think the line that gives it away is "for the slightest moment she knew what happened" -- although the whole passage is deliberately ambiguous (which in some ways makes it worse, IMO), the way I read that was that she got rubbed out, the way you see the flash of realization in filmed stories all the time in-between being killed and actually dying. Also the parallel to Sirius's laugh right before he died has to be intentional and not just because they're related, otherwise it would seem kind of random, right?

She writes a death by Avada Kedavra very similar when it came to Dumbledore.

A jet of green light shot from the end of Snape's wand and hit Dumbledore squarely in the chest. H arry's scream of horror never left him; silent and unmoving, he was forced to watch as Dumbledore was blasted into the air. For a split second, he seemed to hang suspended beneath the shining skull, and then he fell slowly backward, like a great rag doll, over the battlements and out of sight.

I think it is no question that this was a killing curse that Molly sent to Bellatrix. The placement of the curse, the cadence of the sequence, the end result. The difference is Bellatrix as a character does not deserve a grand death scene, and can be handled almost like a red shirt in Star Trek. I don't really mean that, she is a important character, but in comparison to Dumbledore, she is kibble. Reading this bit again, I am struck by the literal mirror of the scenes. H arry wants to scream out, but does not when the curse hits, Voldemort does scream out when Bellatrix is hit. I dont think it is ambiguous to be confusing, or ambiguous at all for that matter. After 7 books, I dont think we the audience needs it to be outlined once more what color the curse was. I think all the clues are there built on the canon of the previous stories. Consider for instance when H arry used the torture curse on Bellatrix in Order of the Phoenix. He does it, but it does not last long. Bella (I think) says you have to really mean it for the curse to take full affect. Molly certainly had every intention on stopping Bellatrix from hurting her children when moments before she lashes out in rage verbally calling Bellatrix a bitch, which was quite out of character for Molly. I think her intention was clear.

[Ribbons]

Well falling down is going to be the end result of any curse that's designed to hurt. I don't think the fact that Dumbledore and Bellatrix both "fell" is indicative of any sort of literary decision to parallel their deaths. Same thing with Harry/Voldemort screaming and the location of the hit; that seems more like the way Rowling writes to me: people scream all the time in her books when people die, "squarely in the chest" is a nice phrase to bust out every now and then, etc.

What I mean when I say ambiguous is not that we needed to know the shaft of light was green, but that it's the one death where it's never overtly explained that the person died. "The crowd cheered, Voldemort screamed" is like the equivalent of two crossed swords on the beach. It was obviously coded so that if anyone reads it carefully enough they'll be able to infer what happened, but at the same time it's a euphemism for the actual event, because I think Rowling wanted to soft-pedal the fact that Mrs. Weasely killed someone in cold blood (obviously open to interpretation, but that's the way I took it). Although it seems like most people figured out that Bellatrix died, so to me the deliberate vagaries make it (unintentionally) creepier.

[bamf]

Cheers mate! I see what you are saying. Perhaps she felt bad for making Molly be the one that did it, and went with the vague description of the event.

On another note,

Cant sleep, clown will kill me.

[Al Shut]

Regarding the use of unforgivable curses I have to say I don't like it at all.

I seem to remember that when they were introduced in book 4 the fact that Crouch sen. allowed aurors to use them when Voldemort was around the first time was seen as a bad thing.

And now it's all a go, killing, minid cotrolling innocent bank employees and torturing people because they spit somebody in the face.

I blame the zeitgeist.

[Ribbons]

Zeitgeist!!!

[WalterBunny]

I am currently re-reading Harry Potter & The Deathly Hallows.

When this book came out, I finished it in 35 and 1/2 hours. Not continuous reading; there was quite a bit of sleeping done in there (since I had to work overnight the book came out). Still, that was pretty rushed. So I'm taking my time now, chewing over bits and figuring out what I may have missed or sped over the first run through.

[Worst Part's Almost Over]

I'm hoping he gives the material the kudos it deserves. If he pulls this off, it'd be ace to see a pair of Best Supporting Actor Oscar Noms.

Knowing how they've screwed up other vital Potter moments on film, this scene will likely end up on the cutting room floor.

[Ribbons]

I'm hoping he gives the material the kudos it deserves. If he pulls this off, it'd be ace to see a pair of Best Supporting Actor Oscar Noms.

Knowing how they've screwed up other vital Potter moments on film, this scene will likely end up on the cutting room floor.

IPAMPICASH...

[Fievel]

In a way, they've almost DOWNPLAYED Snape's involvement in the story for the movies. I expected to see more of him in OOTP in preparation for HBP, sort of like how they gave Fred and George more screentime in GOF in preparation for their "great escape" in OOTP.

In the latest movie (Order Of The Phoenix) when Snape was trying to teach Harry Occlumency, I thought Snape looked like he really cared about Harry and wanted him to get it right. It was really uncharacteristic for the movie version of Snape, so it made me wonder about how Snape would turn out in the final book. If that was intentional, I think it was a great "tell" on Snape/Rickman's part.

[bamf]

In a way, they've almost DOWNPLAYED Snape's involvement in the story for the movies. I expected to see more of him in OOTP in preparation for HBP, sort of like how they gave Fred and George more screentime in GOF in preparation for their "great escape" in OOTP.

In the latest movie (Order Of The Phoenix) when Snape was trying to teach Harry Occlumency, I thought Snape looked like he really cared about Grande Rojo and wanted him to get it right. It was really uncharacteristic for the movie version of Snape, so it made me wonder about how Snape would turn out in the final book. If that was intentional, I think it was a great "tell" on Snape/Rickman's part.

Rickman was the only one who knew the truth from Rowling herself.

[RogueScribner]

I couldn't find a catch all Harry Potter thread, so I'll post this bit here:

JK Rowling wrote an outline for a prequel that will be auctioned off

[bamf]

In shocking future news, Amazon takes it, posts screen caps of the cover, and scuttles it away till 2028 when the whole saga is reduxed sponsored by A&W butter beer.

[hackett]

maybe it's just me...but is anyone tired of prequels? To be honest, I can't think of the last time a prequel was really a good idea for anything. Granted, it is Rowling, but its too hard to create a solid ticking clock storyline with a prequel.

Call me easily amused, but i'd be happy with a complex mystery / adventure of Harry and Ron while doing Auror stuff.

[RogueScribner]

Well, I assume the prequel would be about either the formation of Hogwarts or the rise of Voldemort (and subsequently the fall of James Potter). We've gotten snippets of both stories, but nothing fully dramatized. And it's merely an outline for a story, so it's not like Rowling is cashing in, really.

[Lord Voldemoo]

Well, I assume the prequel would be about either the formation of Hogwarts or the rise of Voldemort (and subsequently the fall of James Potter). We've gotten snippets of both stories, but nothing fully dramatized. And it's merely an outline for a story, so it's not like Rowling is cashing in, really.

yeah, it will be auctioned off FOR CHARITY in case people didn't read the story.

I don't think it really means anything except that Rowling has thought at least a little about this. I'm not expecting anything to come of it though, as far as a full book is concerned (at least not for some time).

[DaleTremont]

Honestly I'm already ready for another one.

I think the British government should fund a project to create a Rowlingator...an exact robot replica of J.K. that can churn out Harry Potter books for...infinity and beyond!

EDIT: Now with 100% more super crappy Paint representation!

[hackett]

Well, I assume the prequel would be about either the formation of Hogwarts or the rise of Voldemort (and subsequently the fall of James Potter). We've gotten snippets of both stories, but nothing fully dramatized. And it's merely an outline for a story, so it's not like Rowling is cashing in, really.

yeah, it will be auctioned off FOR CHARITY in case people didn't read the story.

I don't think it really means anything except that Rowling has thought at least a little about this. I'm not expecting anything to come of it though, as far as a full book is concerned (at least not for some time).

I thought the 800 word summary of the prequel was being auctioned off for charity... and that the full book will be treated like any other.

[Lord Voldemoo]

EDIT: Now with 100% more super crappy Paint representation!

HAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

that's so bad it's fantastic!

Well, I assume the prequel would be about either the formation of Hogwarts or the rise of Voldemort (and subsequently the fall of James Potter). We've gotten snippets of both stories, but nothing fully dramatized. And it's merely an outline for a story, so it's not like Rowling is cashing in, really.

yeah, it will be auctioned off FOR CHARITY in case people didn't read the story.

I don't think it really means anything except that Rowling has thought at least a little about this. I'm not expecting anything to come of it though, as far as a full book is concerned (at least not for some time).

I thought the 800 word summary of the prequel was being auctioned off for charity... and that the full book will be treated like any other.

my understanding is that the summary is all there is. There IS no book and there wont be one for the foreseeable future (i.e. until JK wants to buy her own aircraft carrier).