March 06 BotM Thread - 1984

This forum caters to our literary tastes.

March Book of the Month Poll

Poll ended at Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:26 pm

CELL by Stephen King
7
28%
A PRINCESS OF MARS by Edgar Rice Burroughs
5
20%
1984 by George Orwell
8
32%
Nope, not happening for me, babe.
2
8%
The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy
3
12%
 
Total votes : 25

Postby TonyWilson on Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:52 pm

Whoa whoa whoa, didn't Blake come up with teh Doors of percepstion thing?

On topic though, I prefer 1984 as I find the human drama much more interesting.
Elitism is positing that your taste is equivalent to quality, you hate "Hamlet" does it make it "bad"? If you think so, you're one elite motherfucker.
User avatar
TonyWilson
No Less Liquid Than His Shadow
 
Posts: 9155
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:45 am
Location: A Drained Swimming Pool

Postby ZombieZoneSolutions on Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:52 pm

keepcoolbutcare wrote:has anyone read Pynchon's introduction to the book, which I believe is available from the latest printing, the new Orwell centenial edition?...good stuff.


Oh! I did not know that!
I've been looking for a reason to read 1984 again!
ZombieZoneSolutions
AIRWOLF
 
Posts: 2467
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:28 pm

Postby Seppuku on Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:56 pm

TonyWilson wrote:Whoa whoa whoa, didn't Blake come up with teh Doors of percepstion thing?

On topic though, I prefer 1984 as I find the human drama much more interesting.


Good book, pity mescaline's so hard to get a hold of nowadays though. I remember reading some back-dated interview where Morrison said he picked it up from Aldous Huxley. You'd have thought he'd have been a Blake fan too? Maybe he just liked that Tiger Tiger poem 'coz it sounded pretty like.
Dale Tremont Presents...

Image
User avatar
Seppuku
SWINGING PLASTIC LION
 
Posts: 7872
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:52 am
Location: Limeyland

Postby Iconoclastica on Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:02 pm

fuck it, kcbc, I'll keep going . . . :wink:


I haven't even looked at Brave New World since sophomore year of high school . . . but what I remember of it is that it dealt with the ability of a government to define the roles of the people in its society by manipulating their genetics and their moods to be subservient to the most efficient means existence in terms of castes, duties, and social interaction. The most relevant issues brought up in the book are essentially whether or not human nature is strong enough to overcome the oppression of a government . . . same as is brought up in 1984. But that's it . . . it's more of a sociopolitical commentary on the threats of genetic engineering and what happens when reproduction is no longer a factor in survival of the species ("procrastination is a citizen's duty"), than anything else :-p


1984 on the other hand brings up far more complex issues. The issue of political oppression is far stronger in this circumstance, because these people aren't bread to lack free will. They're not fed SOMA to make them accept everything that happens to them. They're brainwashed. And those who are not, live in fear of being caught every day of their lives. Those who choose to lead more anarchical existences are destitute, but there still exists some semblance of human nature in their midsts. Reproduction is still a factor in human substistence, so the nature of relationships with and without love come into play. The issue of who to trust, conspiracy, and the threat of dictatorship in the face of a people who are, at some level, able to oppose it but opt not to out of fear is far more effective of a concept than the rather absurd, or at least less historically realistic, genetic manipulation.
Image

I am Jack's broken heart
User avatar
Iconoclastica
DEADLY ZONETTE
 
Posts: 2646
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:42 pm

Postby ZombieZoneSolutions on Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:13 pm

BRAVE NEW WORLD is about dystopian social engineering.

1984 is about life under a totalitarian dictatorship.

I agree 1984 is more believeable than the more Sci-Fi / "Matrixy"
BRAVE NEW WORLD, but both are dead on social commentaries...

everyone I know is on some form of SOMA
(aka anti-depressants / anti-anxiety pills).
ZombieZoneSolutions
AIRWOLF
 
Posts: 2467
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:28 pm

Postby Iconoclastica on Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:17 pm

ah good point zombie . . . and I'm being a little stubborn, especially considering that I'm in the scientific fields, and I've worked in a lab where I sat there cloning cells . . . so yeah, both are relevant. I just find Orwell far more of an effective social commentator . . . going less for blockbuster-type shock value, more for those treacherous things from the real world that actually affect many components of modern society in almost the same exact way as in 1984 . . .


damn, though . . . Brave New World always makes me think of Garden State . . . ooooh SOMA.
Image

I am Jack's broken heart
User avatar
Iconoclastica
DEADLY ZONETTE
 
Posts: 2646
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:42 pm

Postby Petri on Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:20 pm

Iconoclastica wrote:fuck it, kcbc, I'll keep going . . . :wink:


I haven't even looked at Brave New World since sophomore year of high school . . . but what I remember of it is that it dealt with the ability of a government to define the roles of the people in its society by manipulating their genetics and their moods to be subservient to the most efficient means existence in terms of castes, duties, and social interaction. The most relevant issues brought up in the book are essentially whether or not human nature is strong enough to overcome the oppression of a government . . . same as is brought up in 1984. But that's it . . . it's more of a sociopolitical commentary on the threats of genetic engineering and what happens when reproduction is no longer a factor in survival of the species ("procrastination is a citizen's duty"), than anything else :-p


1984 on the other hand brings up far more complex issues. The issue of political oppression is far stronger in this circumstance, because these people aren't bread to lack free will. They're not fed SOMA to make them accept everything that happens to them. They're brainwashed. And those who are not, live in fear of being caught every day of their lives. Those who choose to lead more anarchical existences are destitute, but there still exists some semblance of human nature in their midsts. Reproduction is still a factor in human substistence, so the nature of relationships with and without love come into play. The issue of who to trust, conspiracy, and the threat of dictatorship in the face of a people who are, at some level, able to oppose it but opt not to out of fear is far more effective of a concept than the rather absurd, or at least less historically realistic, genetic manipulation.


This is the best summary of those two books I've ever heard. What makes 1984 so relevant to me in this day and age vs. Brave New World is that what makes 1984 so scary is the fact that there is nothing, absolutely NOTHING other than propaganda and fear that is keeping those people from thinking for themselves. Yet, basically the entire population is enslaved not from any kind of drug or anything like that, but by letting someone else think for them. And it bothers me that we seem to be becoming more and more like that.
User avatar
Petri
REAL DRAGON
 
Posts: 478
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:38 am
Location: Katy, TX

Postby Ribbons on Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:21 pm

Wait, how is Heart of Darkness a geek book but "Watchmen" isn't? Does. Not. Compute. That's like saying "Fuck fast food! Take me to Taco Bell!"
User avatar
Ribbons
SQUARE PEG
 
Posts: 13969
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:00 am

Postby Iconoclastica on Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:33 pm

Petri wrote:This is the best summary of those two books I've ever heard. What makes 1984 so relevant to me in this day and age vs. Brave New World is that what makes 1984 so scary is the fact that there is nothing, absolutely NOTHING other than propaganda and fear that is keeping those people from thinking for themselves. Yet, basically the entire population is enslaved not from any kind of drug or anything like that, but by letting someone else think for them. And it bothers me that we seem to be becoming more and more like that.


Thanks Petri - you're flattering me :oops: :P . . .

and I wholeheartedly agree with you about the book . . . I know this isn't the place to go into politics, but doublespeak, changing history to suit the benefit of the government's image (like the Dresden firebombings having no more than a footnote in American history books for decades after world war 2) . . . it's how life/politics have always threatened to evolve - thank goodness for people like Orwell (and yeah, as per my reference, Vonnegut) who made sure people's eyes stayed open to it.
Image

I am Jack's broken heart
User avatar
Iconoclastica
DEADLY ZONETTE
 
Posts: 2646
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:42 pm

Postby Fievel on Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:37 pm

Cell's gonna be a movie.
Samuel L. Jackson was unavailable for comment.

http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=22663
User avatar
Fievel
Mouse Of The House
 
Posts: 12148
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:07 pm
Location: White Lake, MI

Postby Iconoclastica on Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:42 pm

Fievel wrote:Cell's gonna be a movie.
Samuel L. Jackson was unavailable for comment.

http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=22663


zombies on a motherfucking plane!!
Image

I am Jack's broken heart
User avatar
Iconoclastica
DEADLY ZONETTE
 
Posts: 2646
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:42 pm

Postby unikrunk on Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:44 pm

wait.

there are zombies on the plane?

Feed them the snakes.

zombie-snakes on a plane.
He can't' love you back...
Image
User avatar
unikrunk
AIRWOLF PLUS
 
Posts: 4845
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:48 am

Postby bluebottle on Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:46 pm

if we're going to talk about un-read books that are lying around, how about "life of pie"...

everyone i know owns that book, yet no one has actually read it.
User avatar
bluebottle
AIRWOLF PLUS
 
Posts: 5354
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:17 pm
Location: Canada

Postby DennisMM on Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:48 pm

Iconoclastica wrote:Seriously though . . . I love the themes of the novel. I wrote an 80 page thesis correlating Orwell's life experiences with his themes and characters in 1984, Animal Farm, and Down and Out in Paris and London, and have read almost all of his works, including his short stories that are often overlooked. He was a god among men and damn insightful . . . considering the shit he saw in Burmese and during the Spanish Civil War, it's no wonder he was able to pull together such terrifying concepts into something so timelessly effective . . . especially considering how many people have borrowed from his ideas since . . . his is a concept that won't die soon . . .


I, too, am a great admirer of Orwell. He was to be the central figure of my senior thesis, "The Decline of the Man of Letters, 1900-1950" -- the one I never wrote. I love The Collected Essays, Letters and Journalism four-volume set and one day, when the money is there, will own it. Do you have The Forgotten Orwell, the collection of radio addresses he wrote for the BBC during the war?

Most important to me is that 1984 is not antisocialist. Orwell was a socialist, god damn it, even if he left organized socialist politics. Don't try to tell me he hated socialism and communalism. He hated extremism and the kooks who made socialism look less respectable. 1984 is antiauthoritarian, regardless of the political system from which it emerges, not specifically antisocialist. He wrote it after the war, for god's sake. How could anyone who has read his work more than superficially possibly think Orwell hated socialism more than fascism?

Your mention of population dynamics and subsistence reminds me that for a long time I didn't understand the Women's Antisex League. It was a tool of emotional repression, of course, but it also kept the population under control as was necessary while food was scarce.

Which leads to another thought that escaped me for a long time: Is food truly scarce? Is farm production held back deliberately so food shortages can be used as a tool of oppression without the fear of secret food stores being discovered?
Last edited by DennisMM on Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." -- Noam Chomsky
DennisMM
NOT PARTICULARLY MENACING
 
Posts: 16808
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:02 pm
Location: Watchin' the reels go 'round and 'round

Postby Iconoclastica on Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:54 pm

Dennis, I always knew I liked you :-)
Image

I am Jack's broken heart
User avatar
Iconoclastica
DEADLY ZONETTE
 
Posts: 2646
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:42 pm

Postby Iconoclastica on Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:57 pm

Bluebottle wrote:if we're going to talk about un-read books that are lying around, how about "life of pie"...

everyone i know owns that book, yet no one has actually read it.


I'll admit that I only read the first chapter . . . I had to put it down at this:

scientists are a friendly, atheistic, hard-working, beer-drinking lot whose minds are preoccupied with sex, chess, and baseball when they are not preoccupied with science



because I knew it would never live up to its potential after opening with a quote that was that amazing . . . no desire to finish it . . . it reminds me too much of a modern day siddhartha :?
Image

I am Jack's broken heart
User avatar
Iconoclastica
DEADLY ZONETTE
 
Posts: 2646
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:42 pm

Postby DennisMM on Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:58 pm

And I <3 you, Iconny. Thank you, also, for typing the title of the novel correctly. For some reason, people think Orwell wrote out the words nineteen eighty-four. I suppose it's like Sense & Sensibility. People see it written that way and assume it's shorthand.
"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." -- Noam Chomsky
DennisMM
NOT PARTICULARLY MENACING
 
Posts: 16808
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:02 pm
Location: Watchin' the reels go 'round and 'round

Postby Petri on Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:05 pm

Iconoclastica wrote:
Petri wrote:This is the best summary of those two books I've ever heard. What makes 1984 so relevant to me in this day and age vs. Brave New World is that what makes 1984 so scary is the fact that there is nothing, absolutely NOTHING other than propaganda and fear that is keeping those people from thinking for themselves. Yet, basically the entire population is enslaved not from any kind of drug or anything like that, but by letting someone else think for them. And it bothers me that we seem to be becoming more and more like that.


Thanks Petri - you're flattering me :oops: :P . . .

and I wholeheartedly agree with you about the book . . . I know this isn't the place to go into politics, but doublespeak, changing history to suit the benefit of the government's image (like the Dresden firebombings having no more than a footnote in American history books for decades after world war 2) . . . it's how life/politics have always threatened to evolve - thank goodness for people like Orwell (and yeah, as per my reference, Vonnegut) who made sure people's eyes stayed open to it.


I would have gone deeper and made more specific references to what is happening today, but like you said, this isn't the place for politics.
User avatar
Petri
REAL DRAGON
 
Posts: 478
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:38 am
Location: Katy, TX

Postby unikrunk on Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:05 pm

Hmmm…regarding the question of relevance to today’s world; while I love Orwell and Huxley (read the island), I do think that Brave New World is, at least in my sector, more relevant.

While 1984 does resonate strongly with the never ending war against the faceless enemy scenario we are seeing played out right now, I do not think that we have reached the levels of extremism the text presents.

Conversely, the issues of class designation and a medicated culture in love with its own image, seems to fit what I see looking out the window.
He can't' love you back...
Image
User avatar
unikrunk
AIRWOLF PLUS
 
Posts: 4845
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:48 am

Postby bluebottle on Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:25 pm

i could only read the first chapter of "heartbreaking work of staggering genius" because it was crap - despite everyone telling me otherwise.

:D
User avatar
bluebottle
AIRWOLF PLUS
 
Posts: 5354
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:17 pm
Location: Canada

Postby unikrunk on Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:26 pm

Art and Physics - been on my coffee table for a year.

Ne'er to be read
He can't' love you back...
Image
User avatar
unikrunk
AIRWOLF PLUS
 
Posts: 4845
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:48 am

Postby Alex DeLarge on Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:56 pm

Ive read all the choices except Cell and i dont like King so i think ill sit this month out. When do we nominate books? We need some more interesting options. And did anyone discuss A Scanner Darkly?
Alex DeLarge
MONKEY BUTLER
 
Posts: 204
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:31 am

Postby Ribbons on Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:22 pm

Man, it's a tight race this month. When are polls closing, by the way?
User avatar
Ribbons
SQUARE PEG
 
Posts: 13969
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:00 am

Postby havocSchultz on Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:24 pm

haven't you people realized that there are ZOMBIES on tha muthafuckin cell phone and there's not a GOT-DAMNED thing Eli Roth can do about it...
User avatar
havocSchultz
is full of stars...
 
Posts: 15695
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:46 am
Location: living amongst a hazy nothing...

Postby Iconoclastica on Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:28 pm

havocSchultz wrote:haven't you people realized that there are ZOMBIES on tha muthafuckin cell phone and there's not a GOT-DAMNED thing Eli Roth can do about it...



check about 8 posts up, havoc . . . :wink:
Image

I am Jack's broken heart
User avatar
Iconoclastica
DEADLY ZONETTE
 
Posts: 2646
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:42 pm

Postby havocSchultz on Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:31 pm

Iconoclastica wrote:
havocSchultz wrote:haven't you people realized that there are ZOMBIES on tha muthafuckin cell phone and there's not a GOT-DAMNED thing Eli Roth can do about it...



check about 8 posts up, havoc . . . :wink:


ya... i know... that's why i wrote it... i was gonna include the whole post/quote... but i thought it might be too obvious...

i'm just trying to convince peeps to vote for cell...


:D
User avatar
havocSchultz
is full of stars...
 
Posts: 15695
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:46 am
Location: living amongst a hazy nothing...

Postby Iconoclastica on Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:34 pm

ooooh :oops: . . . well, hopefully now that there's a 1984 discussion thread, there will be more love for the oft ignored lesser books on the list :wink:


jk jk cell was great . . . and I suppose Brainiac or Adam will decide when to stop the voting? Brainiac said today . . . but who knows . . . soon I'm sure.
Image

I am Jack's broken heart
User avatar
Iconoclastica
DEADLY ZONETTE
 
Posts: 2646
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:42 pm

Postby Iconoclastica on Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:28 pm

unikrunk wrote:Hmmm…regarding the question of relevance to today’s world; while I love Orwell and Huxley (read the island), I do think that Brave New World is, at least in my sector, more relevant.

While 1984 does resonate strongly with the never ending war against the faceless enemy scenario we are seeing played out right now, I do not think that we have reached the levels of extremism the text presents.

Conversely, the issues of class designation and a medicated culture in love with its own image, seems to fit what I see looking out the window.



you'd think I'd be happy to read that people are more inclined to perceive our world as a plastic wasteland rather than one propelling itself towards totalitarian hypocrisy . . . but damn, that's depressing.
Image

I am Jack's broken heart
User avatar
Iconoclastica
DEADLY ZONETTE
 
Posts: 2646
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:42 pm

Postby Retardo_Montalban on Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:39 pm

I read 1984 when I was like 10. For the next 6 years of my life I always pictured gin tasting like cod liver oil, when it really tastes like a pine tree. Victory Gin!

I"ve always fancied Animal Farm a bit more. Mostly because it begins by investing yourself in these characters that you admire, then either twists them into monsters or kills them off. I knew OBrien was no good from page one, that Lard assed piece of shit.
Image
User avatar
Retardo_Montalban
doubleplusungood
 
Posts: 3682
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:28 am

Postby BuckyO'harre on Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:56 pm

~
Last edited by BuckyO'harre on Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thank you, Zoners, for the kindness, tolerance, and enlightenment you've shared with me. It may not have been deserved, but it was greatly appreciated nonetheless. Soupy twist.
BuckyO'harre
AIRWOLF PLUS
 
Posts: 3724
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:14 am

Postby nodforlife on Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:03 am

If ya'll liked 1984 and Brave New World you should really check out We by Yevgeny Zamyatin. It came out before either of them and was one of Orwell's main influences. It's quite good.

As for the debate between Orwell and Huxley, I read somewhere that Orwell was afraid that the things we hate (fear, oppression) will destroy us, while Huxley felt it was the things we love (sex, mindless stimulation) that lead to our downfall.

In the 1940s, I would have said Orwell was more spot-on with his fears, given the world events of the time. Huxley more accurately predicted the world we live in today. He feared that the more luxurious humanity became, the more vapid our culture would become. I don't think it takes more than five minutes of watching "The Simple Life" to realize he was right.
nodforlife
PRIMITIVE SCREWHEAD
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:08 am
Location: Sunny Los Angeles

Postby DinoDeLaurentiis on Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:12 am

The one thing that has a stayed with a the Dino after alla these a years, even a more than a the Big Brother anna the Victory Gin anna the fear anna such... is a the fantasies of a the oppressed human spirit, no?

You got a the Winston Smith, anna he witnesses the brief insurgent acts of a the Julia, eh? Anna he so thrilled by a the thought of a the revolt anna insurgency that he begin a to dream about a her, no? To fantasize about a her standing onna the hill, defiantly ripping off a her blouse, eh?

Like... alla his sexual frustrations anna repressed spirit, they meld a together anna focus onna this a one woman who he barely gets a the glimpse of, eh? Anna she becomes a the symbol of a his personal revolt against a the oppression, anna the reclaiming of a the youth, a the virility, anna the strangled libido... which empowers the putz to act, eh? Anna meet uppa with a her anna try anna change a the course of a his a life...

With a the disastrous consequences, to be sure, eh?

Stephen King, he kind of a revisit the concept inna the Dead Zone with a the doctor anna the garbage disposal, eh? Only inna the much a more twisted way... but a she was a working onna the same a level...

Hehehe... the psychological link with a the 1984, that's a prolly why I got interested inna to producing that Dead Zone flick inna the first place, eh?
User avatar
DinoDeLaurentiis
SHE'S A THE SARAH SILVERMAN
 
Posts: 11284
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:15 pm
Location: Private Villa inna Santorini

Postby Iconoclastica on Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:16 am

damn dino . . . that's the most insightly italian-english blurb I've ever read.



heh, it's always a woman.
Image

I am Jack's broken heart
User avatar
Iconoclastica
DEADLY ZONETTE
 
Posts: 2646
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:42 pm

Postby Adam Balm on Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:19 am

DennisMM wrote:
Most important to me is that 1984 is not antisocialist. Orwell was a socialist, god damn it, even if he left organized socialist politics. Don't try to tell me he hated socialism and communalism. He hated extremism and the kooks who made socialism look less respectable. 1984 is antiauthoritarian, regardless of the political system from which it emerges, not specifically antisocialist. He wrote it after the war, for god's sake. How could anyone who has read his work more than superficially possibly think Orwell hated socialism more than fascism?



I was just remembering Edward O. Wilson's famous quote on communism.

Edward O. Wilson wrote:Great idea. Wrong species.
Image
User avatar
Adam Balm
AIRWOLF PLUS
 
Posts: 10806
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:59 pm
Location: factored in this happening when it has happened

Postby Chairman Kaga on Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:29 am

That deserves a tshirt or atleast a bumper sticker.
Chairman Kaga
AIRWOLF PLUS
 
Posts: 7660
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:49 am

Postby DennisMM on Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:36 am

Adam Balm wrote:I was just remembering Edward O. Wilson's famous quote on communism.

Edward O. Wilson wrote:Great idea. Wrong species.


Note I did not write communism. I wrote communalism, which is a very different thing. Socialism does not require lockstep obedience any more than capitalism does. It does ask that a person understand the notion of a sense of a greater good, or at least believe in one's self as a member of a symbiotic society.

I'm not sure how much I trust an entomologist to define human possibilties or even probabilities.
"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." -- Noam Chomsky
DennisMM
NOT PARTICULARLY MENACING
 
Posts: 16808
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:02 pm
Location: Watchin' the reels go 'round and 'round

Postby DennisMM on Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:42 am

Does anyone know where I might find criticism or analysis of 1984 by Noam Chomsky? It seems a natural for him, but a search turns up so many bloody pages that it's nearly impossible for me to narrow down which might actually be relevant. Perhaps someone who knows how to locate citations? Academics or researchers, eh?
"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." -- Noam Chomsky
DennisMM
NOT PARTICULARLY MENACING
 
Posts: 16808
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:02 pm
Location: Watchin' the reels go 'round and 'round

Postby Adam Balm on Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:43 am

DennisMM wrote:
Adam Balm wrote:
DennisMM wrote:
Most important to me is that 1984 is not antisocialist. Orwell was a socialist, god damn it, even if he left organized socialist politics. Don't try to tell me he hated socialism and communalism. He hated extremism and the kooks who made socialism look less respectable. 1984 is antiauthoritarian, regardless of the political system from which it emerges, not specifically antisocialist. He wrote it after the war, for god's sake. How could anyone who has read his work more than superficially possibly think Orwell hated socialism more than fascism?



I was just remembering Edward O. Wilson's famous quote on communism.

Edward O. Wilson wrote:Great idea. Wrong species.


Note I did not write communism. I wrote communalism, which is a different thing. Socialism does not require lockstep obedience any more than capitalism does. It does ask that a person understand the notion of a sense of a greater good, or at least believe in one's self as a member of a symbiotic society.

I'm not sure how much I trust an entomologist to define human possibilties or even probabilities.


Well, the only thing he defined was that historically communism has only worked with the ants. ;) But since he is a genetic determinist and believes that modern social hierarchies reflect an optimal evolutionary strategy, I would agree with you that he's not the best source on human potential.

And I know you weren't referring to communism btw. I just liked the quote.

END THREADJACK!
Image
User avatar
Adam Balm
AIRWOLF PLUS
 
Posts: 10806
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:59 pm
Location: factored in this happening when it has happened

Postby DennisMM on Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:49 am

O-KAY. I'm sorry.
Really. It's me being too literal again.
Sorry.
"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." -- Noam Chomsky
DennisMM
NOT PARTICULARLY MENACING
 
Posts: 16808
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:02 pm
Location: Watchin' the reels go 'round and 'round

Postby Iconoclastica on Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:55 am

haha Adam, that quote is amazing . . . and Dennis, in my opinion, it's all good - at least it points out that people here are intelligent and actually know the damn difference between communism and socialism . . . for crying out loud, half our country probably can't even give you a decent definition of capitalism, nonetheless a political structure that doesn't have a crucial part in its self centered existence . . .
Image

I am Jack's broken heart
User avatar
Iconoclastica
DEADLY ZONETTE
 
Posts: 2646
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:42 pm

Postby BuckyO'harre on Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:08 am

~
Last edited by BuckyO'harre on Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
BuckyO'harre
AIRWOLF PLUS
 
Posts: 3724
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:14 am

Postby Iconoclastica on Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:35 am

BuckyO'harre wrote:Just one point I have to make...














"people aren't bread"



It's a good thing too.Otherwise I'd have consumed myself with gobs of butter and honey by now.

...I'll just be going now. Before someone castrates me.




Haha bucky I just realized what you were referring to . . . I completely missed that typo of mine - that's hilarious, great catch!! . . . no, people aren't bread, nor are they bred . . . though I think green bunnies might be bred by the powers of righteous indignation :wink:


EDIT: I'm still ignoring you from now on . . . you seem to be learning the ways of conscienscious randomness/boderline spamming from Redcock :?
Last edited by Iconoclastica on Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image

I am Jack's broken heart
User avatar
Iconoclastica
DEADLY ZONETTE
 
Posts: 2646
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:42 pm

Postby Nachokoolaid on Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:39 am

Petri wrote:
Iconoclastica wrote:fuck it, kcbc, I'll keep going . . . :wink:


I haven't even looked at Brave New World since sophomore year of high school . . . but what I remember of it is that it dealt with the ability of a government to define the roles of the people in its society by manipulating their genetics and their moods to be subservient to the most efficient means existence in terms of castes, duties, and social interaction. The most relevant issues brought up in the book are essentially whether or not human nature is strong enough to overcome the oppression of a government . . . same as is brought up in 1984. But that's it . . . it's more of a sociopolitical commentary on the threats of genetic engineering and what happens when reproduction is no longer a factor in survival of the species ("procrastination is a citizen's duty"), than anything else :-p


1984 on the other hand brings up far more complex issues. The issue of political oppression is far stronger in this circumstance, because these people aren't bread to lack free will. They're not fed SOMA to make them accept everything that happens to them. They're brainwashed. And those who are not, live in fear of being caught every day of their lives. Those who choose to lead more anarchical existences are destitute, but there still exists some semblance of human nature in their midsts. Reproduction is still a factor in human substistence, so the nature of relationships with and without love come into play. The issue of who to trust, conspiracy, and the threat of dictatorship in the face of a people who are, at some level, able to oppose it but opt not to out of fear is far more effective of a concept than the rather absurd, or at least less historically realistic, genetic manipulation.


This is the best summary of those two books I've ever heard. What makes 1984 so relevant to me in this day and age vs. Brave New World is that what makes 1984 so scary is the fact that there is nothing, absolutely NOTHING other than propaganda and fear that is keeping those people from thinking for themselves. Yet, basically the entire population is enslaved not from any kind of drug or anything like that, but by letting someone else think for them. And it bothers me that we seem to be becoming more and more like that.


Funny, because this could be the description on the back of the BRAZIL dvd.

I like 1984 better than BNW, as well.
User avatar
Nachokoolaid
THE DORK KNIGHT
 
Posts: 5588
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:00 am
Location: Gotham City

Postby Keepcoolbutcare on Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:05 am

i heart teh Zone!

I've been a ponderin' the relevance of 1984 vs. Brave New World for years, and never, EVER did I think that so many others here in our little playpen of pop-culture would not only be kind enough to respond to such a question, but to go into such depth and detail with their respective opinions on the subject...Bravo, good show 'peeps. Too high to get into any of my own wacky theories, but I loved reading all of yours...even Bucky's, a welcome respite of ribald ripostes (ok, not really, but I loved that sentence!) amidst all the critical revelry.
Personally, I'm an atheist in the voting booth and a theist in the movie theatre. I separate the morality of religion with the spirituality and solace of it. There is something boring about atheism.
User avatar
Keepcoolbutcare
AIRWOLF PLUS
 
Posts: 9407
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:14 am
Location: Blacktionville

Postby Iconoclastica on Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:11 pm

dude, agreed . . . this is why the zone rocks . . . and now I wanna hear your perspective . . . huh, huh? :wink:



Also, I have a question for the rest of you . . . what would be your own personal Room 101?
Image

I am Jack's broken heart
User avatar
Iconoclastica
DEADLY ZONETTE
 
Posts: 2646
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:42 pm

Postby HollywoodBabylon on Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:32 pm

Both 'Brave New World' and 1984 both owe a huge debt to a little known Russian novel of the 1920s. Zamyatin's 'We'. Orwell happily acknowledged that, Huxley - the psuedo bore he was - claimed he'd never read it. Hmmmmmmm
User avatar
HollywoodBabylon
AIRWOLF
 
Posts: 1369
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:55 pm

Postby Iconoclastica on Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:39 pm

yeah nodforlife mentioned that earlier . . . there were a ton of inspiring factors . . . no one's saying they were utterly original, because, well, tragically, not too much is in life - but thanks for the heads up!
Image

I am Jack's broken heart
User avatar
Iconoclastica
DEADLY ZONETTE
 
Posts: 2646
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:42 pm

Postby Seppuku on Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:47 pm

Hollywood, I'm not sure how much interaction you've had with Iconny, but by that read:

"You uppity bastard, it's funny you're talking about originality when you repeat word-for-word the exact same fucking thing as Noddy. Goddamn it I hate people like you and your weird Russian tastes...but that's what rocket launchers were invented for I guess."






Erm...that was a joke!!!! I probably loved We just as much as BNW and 1984.








Iconny's more of a grenade launcher fan.
Last edited by Seppuku on Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Dale Tremont Presents...

Image
User avatar
Seppuku
SWINGING PLASTIC LION
 
Posts: 7872
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:52 am
Location: Limeyland

Postby BuckyO'harre on Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:47 pm

~
Last edited by BuckyO'harre on Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
BuckyO'harre
AIRWOLF PLUS
 
Posts: 3724
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:14 am

Postby HollywoodBabylon on Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:49 pm

Iconoclastica wrote:yeah nodforlife mentioned that earlier . . . there were a ton of inspiring factors . . . no one's saying they were utterly original, because, well, tragically, not too much is in life - but thanks for the heads up!



Check out Karin Boye's 'Kallocain' as well. A little known Swedish novel of the 1940's which is far, far better than 'Brave New World' and nearly as good as 1984. It's available in English.
User avatar
HollywoodBabylon
AIRWOLF
 
Posts: 1369
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:55 pm

PreviousNext

Return to AICN Books

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest