December 07 BotM Thread - SHARP OBJECTS!

[Maui]

We all have memories of our teenage years, the rich kids, the poor kids, the parents with the fancy cars and the tennis club memberships. When I read about Wind Gap I thought I was reading about the small town I grew up in. Only difference being this dysfunctional small town was in the US not Canada.

What was great about the families in Wind Gap was that the traditional family (Mom & Dad, kids, dog) were just as screwed up as the non traditional family (Mom, no Dad, cutting Camille and Amma). I think what is most intriguing about this book is the female relationships within the family: the mother and daughter, the high school friends current and from the past, the small town mentality, the desperate/stepford housewives that drink too much and pull at their scar tissue behind their ears.

“Sharp Objectsâ€

[Ribbons]

Nicely done, Maui; I really want to read this book but there's a couple of other things I'm going to try and get through first.

[Maui]

Nicely done, Maui; I really want to read this book but there's a couple of other things I'm going to try and get through first.

Thanks Ribbons - once you start this book it's truly impossible to put down.

Now, what should I start reading? LOTR??? I think that may be my next big reading project.

[Ribbons]

I'm losing some geek cred with this one, but I never made it all the way through LotR... although I did read all of Two Towers, which I thought was pretty good.

[thomasgaffney]

Now, what should I start reading? LOTR??? I think that may be my next big reading project.

I'm losing some geek cred with this one, but I never made it all the way through LotR... although I did read all of Two Towers, which I thought was pretty good.

You're both forever b4nn3d from the book forum...

[Ribbons]

[thomasgaffney]

Okay...You're not b4nn3d forever, but you SHOULD read all of the LOTR trilogy. They are great reads.

Now back to SHARP OBJECTS!

[Maui]

Now, what should I start reading? LOTR??? I think that may be my next big reading project.

I'm losing some geek cred with this one, but I never made it all the way through LotR... although I did read all of Two Towers, which I thought was pretty good.

You're both forever b4nn3d from the book forum...

What??? I thought we were like the IV to the book forum, huh? huh?

[thomasgaffney]

Now, what should I start reading? LOTR??? I think that may be my next big reading project.

I'm losing some geek cred with this one, but I never made it all the way through LotR... although I did read all of Two Towers, which I thought was pretty good.

You're both forever b4nn3d from the book forum...

What??? I thought we were like the IV to the book forum, huh? huh?

See my previous post. You're not b4nn3d, but you have reading homework!

EDIT - Again, back to SHARP OBJECTS!

[Maui]

NOW BACK TO SHARP OBJECTS!!!

MOD EDIT:

hotlinks make baby jesus cry.

-Moo

OK, it's fixed. We wouldn't want a soggy manger now would we?

[Dee E. Goppstober]

Good write-up, Maui. And I like your nazi too.

it’s always enlightening to read about small towns, dysfunctional families and childhood scars. We all have them in some shape or form and we can certainly relate to these stories in some small way.

I thought the same. The book made me psycho-analize myself a little. And it did get the eerie feel of the less pleasant childhood memories right.

Of course, I am a snobby kid who grew up in kind of a big town, well- kinda anyway- in Amsterdam (waits for joke about pot) - so I don't really know that much about the confinement of small towns. But I was talking to a friend of mine who did. She didn't like it much. I was surprised at her vehemence on the subject. And then I thought- it must be strange to have this ambivalence about the surroundings/people you grew up with- them at the same time being familiar and completely unfamiliar. Kind of schizophrenic..

[DaleTremont]

Of course, I am a snobby kid who grew up in kind of a big town, well- kinda anyway- in Amsterdam (waits for joke about pot)

I went to Amsterdam once...it was AWESOME!

But I digress...

























.....

shit. What was I talking about?

[Maui]

I thought the same. The book made me psycho-analize myself a little. And it did get the eerie feel of the less pleasant childhood memories right.

Yup, me too!

There were bits and pieces that reminded me of my teenage years, the decisions I made, my mother (god bless her controlling ways), high school cliques and the whole drug scene.

I also think this book would appeal to the young adult - teenage girls in particular. It had a little bit of a vibe of "The Lovely Bones" and "The Little Friend". Two other books that I highly recommend, similar subject matter.

[Dee E. Goppstober]

Of course, I am a snobby kid who grew up in kind of a big town, well- kinda anyway- in Amsterdam (waits for joke about pot)

I went to Amsterdam once...it was AWESOME!

But I digress...

























.....

shit. What was I talking about?

Thanks, Dale - I knew I could count on you! You don't disappoint.

[Dee E. Goppstober]

It had a little bit of a vibe of "The Lovely Bones" and "My Little Friend". Two other books that I highly recommend, similar subject matter.

You've got a point about The Lovely Bones (haven't read the other one, whose is it?) - it's the same subject, only that The Lovely Bones has a lot of beauty to it- whereas Sharp Objects insists on showing only the ugliness.

And - 'Young Adults'??. But... I thought I was a young adult??? I feel like a young adult.

[Maui]

It had a little bit of a vibe of "The Lovely Bones" and "My Little Friend". Two other books that I highly recommend, similar subject matter.

You've got a point about The Lovely Bones (haven't read the other one, whose is it?) - it's the same subject, only that The Lovely Bones has a lot of beauty to it- whereas Sharp Objects insists on showing only the ugliness.

And - 'Young Adults'??. But... I thought I was a young adult??? I feel like a young adult.

Definitely, 'The Lovely Bones' is more poetic, brighter. Sharp Objects is just a dark read no bones about it (no pun intended). Young adult reader in my mind is 13-17.

The Little Friend is by Donna Tartt.

It has been a decade since Tartt blazed forth with The Secret History, but it was worth the wait. Set in small-town Mississippi, her new work centers on the family of Harriet Cleve, shattered forever after the murder by hanging of Harriet's nine-year-old brother, Robin, when Harriet was still a baby. Harriet's mother has withdrawn, her father has left town (though he still supports the family), and Harriet and sister Allison are essentially raised by their redoubtable grandmother, Edie, and a gaggle of aunts who, though mostly married, are ultimately "spinsters at heart." Harriet grows up an ornery and precocious child who at age 12 determines that she will finally uncover her brother's murderer. Whether or not she solves the crime is hardly the point; what matters here is the writing-dense, luscious, and exact-and Tartt's ability to reconstruct the life of this family in vivid detail. Harriet in particular is an extraordinary creation; she's a believable child who is also persuasively wise beyond her years. That debut was no fluke; highly recommended.

[Dee E. Goppstober]

Oh wow- I had forgotten all about Donna Tartt. I did like the Secret History- although I remember my Latin/Greek teacher getting all worked up about the inaccuracies in the book. Cool, thanks.



And- me- definetely just an adult then - without the prefix. Sigh...

[Maui]

Oh wow- I had forgotten all about Donna Tartt. I did like the Secret History- although I remember my Latin/Greek teacher getting all worked up about the inaccuracies in the book. Cool, thanks.



And- me- definetely just an adult then - without the prefix. Sigh...

We are all as young as we want to be!!! I'm really 16 mentally.

I didn't read Secret History. Sounds like another one to add to my list.

Now...back to SHARP OBJECTS!!!

[Maui]

I'm still on the fence about the whole Mom-Hurts-Kids-To-Take-Care-Of-Them syndrome (and yes, ahem, I did forget the actual term.) That's become a fairly standard TV twist at this point- I'm pretty sure it's been in vogue for a while so it wasn't "shocking." Then again, Flynn seems to kind of scknowledge that ever so slyly. I remember in the beginning Camille mentions something about witness statements mirroring dialogue on Law and Order. To her credit, though, it's really hard to surprise us jaded readers, and in the end I think Sharp Objects was less about the murder mystery and more about dysfunctional family.

Munchausen Syndrome.

I agree Dale - the murder mystery was secondary to the dysfunctional family narrative.

[Maui]

What I liked about the ending was that SPOILERS!!!! Kansas City Detective doesn't go back to her. Because seriously, if a guy saw a chick was covered in words etched into her skin, no way would he stick around for her "inner beauty." And they don't make a big deal out of it either. It was just kind of off the cuff, he never spoke to her again. That was very anti-Lifetime.

That's realistic though. He was always telling her how beautiful she was...blah blah blah - but when he finally saw her etchings on her skin she was no longer beautiful? There clearly wasn't much of a relationship there. They were both using each other: for sex and information. He didn't make a big deal out of it and she just never heard from him again. Did she care - no - she had her inner demons to deal with.

[darkjedijaina]

What I liked about the ending was that SPOILERS!!!! Kansas City Detective doesn't go back to her. Because seriously, if a guy saw a chick was covered in words etched into her skin, no way would he stick around for her "inner beauty." And they don't make a big deal out of it either. It was just kind of off the cuff, he never spoke to her again. That was very anti-Lifetime.

That's realistic though. He was always telling her how beautiful she was...blah blah blah - but when he finally saw her etchings on her skin she was no longer beautiful? There clearly wasn't much of a relationship there. They were both using each other: for sex and information. He didn't make a big deal out of it and she just never heard from him again. Did she care - no - she had her inner demons to deal with.

I have to say that she probably did care. She said it'd been years since she'd even been with a guy. Certainly, she had her demons to deal with, and that's what makes it even more gut-wrenchingly depressing. The brutal reality is that in the end she's alone and she'll always be alone except for her editor and his wife. The fact that they don't really go into it is what makes it the most disturbing part to me. The fact that it's so final, that there's not even a hint at revisiting it. Perhaps I'm just drawing from real life experiences there, I dunno.

[Maui]

What I liked about the ending was that SPOILERS!!!! Kansas City Detective doesn't go back to her. Because seriously, if a guy saw a chick was covered in words etched into her skin, no way would he stick around for her "inner beauty." And they don't make a big deal out of it either. It was just kind of off the cuff, he never spoke to her again. That was very anti-Lifetime.

That's realistic though. He was always telling her how beautiful she was...blah blah blah - but when he finally saw her etchings on her skin she was no longer beautiful? There clearly wasn't much of a relationship there. They were both using each other: for sex and information. He didn't make a big deal out of it and she just never heard from him again. Did she care - no - she had her inner demons to deal with.

I have to say that she probably did care. She said it'd been years since she'd even been with a guy. Certainly, she had her demons to deal with, and that's what makes it even more gut-wrenchingly depressing. The brutal reality is that in the end she's alone and she'll always be alone except for her editor and his wife. The fact that they don't really go into it is what makes it the most disturbing part to me. The fact that it's so final, that there's not even a hint at revisiting it. Perhaps I'm just drawing from real life experiences there, I dunno.

Nah, if she did care she wouldn't have so easily jumped around the bedrooms in Wind Gap. She blew it by sleeping with that kid and she knew it.

Just my 2 cents.

[Ribbons]

I finished it too. Left it at the airport lounge for someone else to pick up - because I think it's well worth a read.

That's kind of interesting. Do you do that with most of the books you like or is there some other criteria involved?

[Flumm]

I'm not sure if it's Dee's methodology, or if she's just super generous with her literaturez, but the above reminded me of the following;

Welcome to BookCrossing, where 621,857 people in over 130 countries come to share their passion for books with the world. How? It's easy.

Simply click on the link below and sign up for free in less than 1 minute-- that's it!

At BookCrossing, you can register any book you have on the site, and then set the book free to travel the world and find new readers.

Leave it on a park bench, at a coffee shop, at a hotel on vacation. Share it with a friend or tuck it onto a bookshelf at the gym -- anywhere it might find a new reader! What happens next is up to fate, and we never know where our books might travel next. Track the book's journey around the world as it is passed on from person to person.

I feel somewhat attatched to the books I read, and often find myself revisiting them (or at least staring at them with a vague sense of achievement), so
I haven't tried it myself, but it's an interesting idea, nonetheless.

It feels very beffiting of the medium somehow, I think. Assuming they wouldn't be vexed at the financial aspect, I can imagine authors of times past enjoying something in the slightly romantisized nature of it...

I'm sure I would be all intrigued and excited if I founds me a book.

Depending on the book, of course...

Ahem, anyways. Just thought I'd pass that on. I know I'm not directly on topic, however, so at Gaffney's leisure I move on to more on topic-ier climes...

[Maui]

I leave magazines behind often at airports or where ever I happen to be at the time. With books, if I'm on a vacation, I'll leave it in the hotel room, etc. However it depends on the quality of the book and if I feel compelled to keep it (read it again). Sharp Objects - more than likely a book that I would leave behind at a hotel or lend/give to a friend.

[Ribbons]

I feel somewhat attatched to the books I read, and often find myself revisiting them (or at least staring at them with a vague sense of achievement), so I haven't tried it myself...

Hehe... me too.

Speaking of authors liking the idea, I'd read somewhere that Anthony Hopkins found the copy of a book he was to star in the adaptation of that belonged to the author at the train station once (I'm not sure that's grammatically correct, but you get the gist).

[thomasgaffney]

Where.To.Begin.

Gillian Flynn should stick to writing for Entertainment Weekly. This book sucked. I know the protagonist doesn't have to follow Webster's definition of a clean-cut "good person", but this chick (Camille Preaker) was just awful. And everything that happened was so unrealistic, I just couldn't get into it. It read like some misguided, messed up sexual fantasy that's not based on the real world.

1/10 for this waste of time.

[Ribbons]

Hoofa! My enthusiasm for reading this book suddenly went down a few pegs.

Care to elaborate as far as the unrealistic thing goes? Stepping on the shoulders of giants here, but Thomas Harris also had a penchant for sexual deviancy/self-mutilation, and his earlier Hannibal novels are considered pretty good examples of the mystery genre.

[thomasgaffney]

Hoofa! My enthusiasm for reading this book suddenly went down a few pegs.

Care to elaborate as far as the unrealistic thing goes? Stepping on the shoulders of giants here, but Thomas Harris also had a penchant for sexual deviancy/self-mutilation, and his earlier Hannibal novels are considered pretty good examples of the mystery genre.

I've read Thomas Harris. And I love Thomas Harris. Although, I hated Hannibal. Seriously, the more Hannibal Lector, the worse the books, IMHO. I would rate them Red Dragon, Silence of the Lambs (still a great book though!), and Hannibal.

Gillian Flynn is no Thomas Harris. The self-mutilation didn't turn me off of the book. In fact, I felt like it was a non-issue. "Let me make my character a cutter! It gives her an edge!"

It just felt like the author was thinking "what would I like to do if I went back home and met all the people I used to go to school with?" And she answered that with "I would fuck the most eligible cop in town and then fuck some 18-year-old kid who's a hot athlete, just to prove that I still got it!" I mean, really, THAT'S ALL SHE DOES. Yeah, she might interview a person here or there (way to be ambitious in your job there, winner!), but gimme a fucking break. She's sent to report on some related killings and instead winds up on Spring Break. Puh-lease...I like my job and I like to drink. While I might come into work hung-over on occasion, I don't let drinking interfere with me keeping my job. I don't know many people who do. In this day and age, even the biggest alkies are functioning alcoholics (like the main character's boss! cause EVERYONE in the world in this book is fucked up) so they can keep their job. Not Camille, the protagonist! Why? I don't know...Maybe because she's a cutter (oooh! edgy!)

I grew up in Philadelphia, so I don't know what it's like to live in a small town, but there HAS to be normal people. Not all small towns are filled with nothing but druggies (hardcore druggies, not pot smokers), drunks, and homicidal murderers. On top of that, Camille (who is supposed to be smart) puts herself in situations where smart people (even drunk and high smart people) would never find themselves. Just to what? Prove that she had a hard life cause her mom never loved her? THE HORROR!

The whole book just smacks of "my story is weak (murder mystery? please! why not just tattoo KILLER on the murderer's head on page 2 when you give it away) so I'll fill up the pages with stuff to make people gasp. Sex! Drugs! Booze! Possible incest! (yes, I thought Camille and Amma were going to hook up or something the way this book was going) And bad mothers!"

Weak.

[lyra belacqua]

I've read Thomas Harris. And I love Thomas Harris. Although, I hated Hannibal. Seriously, the more Hannibal Lector, the worse the books, IMHO.

Gillian Flynn is no Thomas Harris.

Wow. You have such an opposite opinion from me. It's like we didn't even read the same book. I loved the atmosphere and tone of Sharp Objects and that carried me through the few things I didn't like.

I've only read 1 Harris book- Hannibal (which I was meh on and did nothing to make me want to read any more of his books even though I love Silence of the Lambs even though I can't watch Jodie Foster anymore). But I don't know where you get the connection between Flynn and Harris. I don't remember their writing as being anything close to one another. Or is it just topic wise? Or am I missing something? Because, let me tell you, I miss shit all the time.

[Ribbons]

But I don't know where you get the connection between Flynn and Harris. I don't remember their writing as being anything close to one another. Or is it just topic wise? Or am I missing something? Because, let me tell you, I miss shit all the time.

I gotta own up to that one. I sort of prompted gaffney to compare the two in order to better understand what he meant when he said the book was over-the-top; whether it was the macabre aspects, the characterisation, or other details.

[lyra belacqua]

But I don't know where you get the connection between Flynn and Harris. I don't remember their writing as being anything close to one another. Or is it just topic wise? Or am I missing something? Because, let me tell you, I miss shit all the time.

I gotta own up to that one. I sort of prompted gaffney to compare the two in order to better understand what he meant when he said the book was over-the-top; whether it was the macabre aspects, the characterisation, or other details.

Ok. So, yes, I missed it. And Ok, I get where he's coming from on the over-the-top (although I disagree).

[Ribbons]

I'm pretty close to done with this, only about a handful of pages left. I can understand why it would rub people the wrong way; there are certain aspects to the story that seem to lean towards the extreme or sensationalistic, but for me it was very potent, starting with the fact that the main character "became beautiful" in her words and starting mutilating herself in the same year, and just the whole struggle between self-confidence and self-loathing or optimism and pessimism that lasted throughout the book. Is the sex a form of wish fulfillment? Maybe, but I think that we get a good enough look at Camille's attitudes towards intimacy and alienation that it seems to fit. Same with going back to her hometown -- I do feel like Flynn's portrayal of all the residents of Wind Gap as losers in some form or another was a little cruel, but at the same time the main character's life in the Windy City isn't all that great either. Like she told her boss when he told her to come home, "I don't have a home." I can't put my finger on it exactly, but I feel like there's something there that goes a little deeper than just a straight-up ego trip. The mystery's not that hard to figure out (I thought the misspelling of the French bar was a nice touch, btw), whether or not it was supposed to be, but a pretty engaging read nonetheless.

[Maui]

Often when reading a book, even if you can't relate to a character, you can somewhat sympathize or feel some compassion towards them. In the case of Camille, I just couldn't muster up any of this. I just felt she was an incredibly weak individual, with very little 'get up and go, move it along, don't look back attitude' and the book just seemed to be her own little pity party from the very first page to the very last. I guess I don't have alot of time for weak female characters.

Too many tiny violins in this story.

[Ribbons]

Hey, she met *most* of her deadlines...

[Maui]

Hey, she met *most* of her deadlines...

hahahaha

[TheBaxter]

with this now being an HBO series, i wanted to read the book first because books are always better. i've read Flynn's other two books (Dark Places and Gone Girl)... GG was brilliant, but DP was very disappointing. i would say SO falls somewhere between.

it's a short read, about 250 pages. and i rarely say this, but i think it should have been longer. my main problem with the book is the end, and specifically, how rushed and tacked on it felt. there's a small twist that comes towards the end, and then a bigger twist in the final chapter. but that final twist is presented almost in a summary-like manner (think the end of Psycho, except instead of seeing Norman in a dress with a knife, you only hear about it as part of the doctor's spiel at the end explaining Norman's psychosis). it easily could have been expanded into a scene, or a few scenes, to set it up and make that twist more dramatic. it isn't a bad twist, just a lost opportunity.

it's interesting, both this and DP seemed to feel like the author got to the end and felt the need to suddenly wrap things up, though it plays out differently in each book. in DP, it comes in the form of a series of ridiculously convenient coincidences, whereas in SO it's more just a rushed final few pages that should have been fleshed out more. SO is definitely better than DP though, including everything that leads up to the end as well... DP probably has more plot though, SO is almost more of a character study of the narrator and her family. but it's overall more interesting and there was a lot of stuff in DP that felt unnecessary and even dull.

hopefully, Gone Girl was a sign that the shortcomings of these earlier novels have been dealt with and Flynn's future books won't suffer the same problems with disappointing endings. otherwise she may get a reputation as the female Stephen King.

ETA: congrats to whoever rememebered this 10-year-old thread and moved my post here

[TheBaxter]

Sharp Objects, AKA The Cure for Insomnia

man this show is sooooooooooooo sloooooooooooooooowwwwwwww

i guess that's what happens when you fluff up a 250 page book that barely has a plot to begin with into an 8-hour "limited series". this book probably would've been fine as a 2-hour film, but there's just not enough there to fill out 8 hours. so then you have to bring in all this extra crap, i mean, WTF was up with that "Calhoun Day" BS anyway? it was like a parody of the south, and this show doesn't even take place in the south.

the acting is fine. amy adams is alright, though i kind of wish they'd switched the casting between this and Dark Places. charlize theron was horribly miscast as a short frumpy redhead in that film, and amy adams probably would've been a better fit for that character. whereas camille in the book is supposed to be practically a model, and i don't think amy adams has that kind of beauty. charlize theron fits that description better; cast sharon stone as adora and they would've made an ideal mother-daughter pair.

[caruso_stalker217]

Sharp Objects, AKA The Cure for Insomnia

man this show is sooooooooooooo sloooooooooooooooowwwwwwww

i guess that's what happens when you fluff up a 250 page book that barely has a plot to begin with into an 8-hour "limited series". this book probably would've been fine as a 2-hour film, but there's just not enough there to fill out 8 hours. so then you have to bring in all this extra crap, i mean, WTF was up with that "Calhoun Day" BS anyway? it was like a parody of the south, and this show doesn't even take place in the south.

the acting is fine. amy adams is alright, though i kind of wish they'd switched the casting between this and Dark Places. charlize theron was horribly miscast as a short frumpy redhead in that film, and amy adams probably would've been a better fit for that character. whereas camille in the book is supposed to be practically a model, and i don't think amy adams has that kind of beauty. charlize theron fits that description better; cast sharon stone as adora and they would've made an ideal mother-daughter pair.

Eight hours? I figured this would be six episodes tops. Eight sounds excessive for this one.

That sounds disappointing. I was looking forward to this.

As for the story not taking place in the south, I've been assured by my wife that Missouri is totally in the south but I'm not convinced.

[TheBaxter]

i think of Missouri being more midwest than south, but i guess it's kinda inbetween. it's "southern-ness" is amplified in the book in contrast to chicago, where camille's newspaper is located. but in the miniseries, they move her newspaper to kansas city, which is in missouri, so the contrast is lost... or at least minimized i guess since kansas city is in the more midwestern part of missouri?

it still seems out of place to see an unabashed celebration of the confederacy with confederate flags flying and a kiddie play featuring girl-raping union soldiers in missouri of all places, but who knows? i guess it's something to do out there.

8 hours is excessive. 6 hours would have been excessive. 2 hours is about all this material could have sustained.

[caruso_stalker217]

Well, Missouri also has Branson, which is country as hell and the number one vacation destination for people who fucking hate themselves or are, like, ninety.

[Wolfpack]

Well, Missouri also has Branson, which is country as hell and the number one vacation destination for people who fucking hate themselves or are, like, ninety.

[caruso_stalker217]

with this now being an HBO series, i wanted to read the book first because books are always better. i've read Flynn's other two books (Dark Places and Gone Girl)... GG was brilliant, but DP was very disappointing. i would say SO falls somewhere between.

it's a short read, about 250 pages. and i rarely say this, but i think it should have been longer. my main problem with the book is the end, and specifically, how rushed and tacked on it felt. there's a small twist that comes towards the end, and then a bigger twist in the final chapter. but that final twist is presented almost in a summary-like manner (think the end of Psycho, except instead of seeing Norman in a dress with a knife, you only hear about it as part of the doctor's spiel at the end explaining Norman's psychosis). it easily could have been expanded into a scene, or a few scenes, to set it up and make that twist more dramatic. it isn't a bad twist, just a lost opportunity.

it's interesting, both this and DP seemed to feel like the author got to the end and felt the need to suddenly wrap things up, though it plays out differently in each book. in DP, it comes in the form of a series of ridiculously convenient coincidences, whereas in SO it's more just a rushed final few pages that should have been fleshed out more. SO is definitely better than DP though, including everything that leads up to the end as well... DP probably has more plot though, SO is almost more of a character study of the narrator and her family. but it's overall more interesting and there was a lot of stuff in DP that felt unnecessary and even dull.

hopefully, Gone Girl was a sign that the shortcomings of these earlier novels have been dealt with and Flynn's future books won't suffer the same problems with disappointing endings. otherwise she may get a reputation as the female Stephen King.

ETA: congrats to whoever rememebered this 10-year-old thread and moved my post here

I think I read an interview somewhere in which Flynn said the ending was originally longer, but got some feedback saying it should be cut back because it prolonged the reveal too much and at that point it was becoming obvious who did the deed.