W0W!1! SCIENC3!1! Blu-Ray FTW!

Betamax and beyond

How will you be watching movies in the future?

DVD?
8
11%
HD-DVD?
10
13%
Blu-Ray?
38
51%
EVD?
1
1%
Holographic Optical Recording Technology?
3
4%
OLDSCHOOL BABY! Betamax/VHS?
2
3%
Projected onto your eyelids by your new 3D magic-movie eye?
2
3%
In the gorram CINEMA, all this tech costs tooo much........
11
15%
 
Total votes : 75

Postby Seppuku on Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:07 pm



That's what I like to call Harry's impression of The Moonwalk. He's pretty good at it too- the man can backtrack with the best of 'em! :wink:

I'm still not planning on investing in either of them, as I'm more interested in the content than the way it looks. If DVD has been the reigning monarch for as long as it has, and there are still some of my favourite movies yet to be released on the format, then I don't plan on blowing a fifth of my life waiting for Blu-Ray to catch up.
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Postby godzillasushi on Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:17 pm

What does "Due to consumer demand" mean in this case? Does that mean that 14 Blu-Ray fanboys complained enough to make it exclusive? I mean, there is some spin right there. As if both platforms was a hinderance for anyone. They better keep putting em out on DVD cuz I won't buy anything new.

I heard Blu-Ray players eat kittens anyway.


EDIT: That wasn't an exact quote but you know what I mean. Psh, demand....I know, I'm reaching a bit but that is so goofy. Just that entire statement.
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Postby Fried Gold on Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:32 pm

The video format wars is strange.

Computer games are spread across a number of consoles and formats (I saw an advert for a game which has eight different release versions). Yet there is no major outcry about not being able to get certain games on their console. In fact people tend to pick consoles for the titles available to it.

Also when, during the 80s and 90s, different electronics companies tried to get together to make a standardised computer or console similar to VHS or DVD (the MSX in the 80s, the 3DO in the 90s) both concepts failed.

So why is it that people get so upset about the prospect of having different movie titles only available on different formats?


.....discuss.
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Postby King Of Nowhere on Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:54 pm

Fried Gold wrote:Also when, during the 80s and 90s, different electronics companies tried to get together to make a standardised computer or console similar to VHS or DVD (the MSX in the 80s, the 3DO in the 90s) both concepts failed.

So why is it that people get so upset about the prospect of having different movie titles only available on different formats?


.....discuss.


I'd like to throw BASIC into that mix, failing that, DOS.
Because manufacturers licensed those operating systems for their computers.
& gradually Microsoft's DOS became the standard.
Although BASIC was on a lot of home computers in the 80's & early 90's, in the UK anyway.
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Postby tapehead on Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:56 pm

Possibly as significant as their backing of BluRay is Warners' Total HD disc format - a single disc that will play on both formats - perhaps designed as a counter to the 'Super Blu Ray' and other dual-players planned for release, it might alos contribute to making Blu Ray the superior player to buy in people's eyes, and those with HD DVD players feel a little less cheated.
Theoretically these discs could also contain standard def content and other formats like H264.
Alternately, it might by a developmental product that will never be commercially released.

New Line going with Blu Ray means big titles like LOTR will likely just be released on that format (As it's a subsidiary of Time Warner).

Expect more news and hype for the next week on consumer tech as the CES kicks off in Las Vegas tomorrow (yes, it is all about big companies trying to get you to buy stuff)
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Postby bluebottle on Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:16 pm

tapehead wrote:Possibly as significant as their backing of BluRay is Warners' Total HD disc format - a single disc that will play on both formats - perhaps designed as a counter to the 'Super Blu Ray' and other dual-players planned for release


The Total HD disc was rumored to be a planned Warner product - now that Warner has announced their 100% Bluray support, I think that dual-disc is dead.
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Postby tapehead on Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:17 pm

Still slated for a big release promo at CES, however, following it's introduction last year. I think it will still be part of their over all spin.
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Postby bluebottle on Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:26 pm

They've said that they're still going to release the HD titles they've announced, ending in May.

I could see the Total HD disc as being a way to placate HD-DVD owners, but I don't see it as a long term option.

Warners has said that they've made this choice because the format war was costing them money- saying that regular DVD sales were down. Keeping HD-DVD alive in any form after May would be beating a dead horse.

I'm just guessing, I could be totally wrong.
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Postby tapehead on Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:42 pm

Bluebottle wrote:I could see the Total HD disc as being a way to placate HD-DVD owners, but I don't see it as a long term option.


I agree - I think that's what it's purpose will be now.
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Postby tapehead on Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:12 pm

Actually, I'd be expecting a considerable price drop for Blu Ray players soon - and HD DVD units, will of course, be given away for free at McDonalds.
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Postby Seppuku on Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:17 pm

tapehead wrote:Actually, I'd be expecting a considerable price drop for Blu Ray players soon - and HD DVD units, will of course, be given away for free at McDonalds.


Hopefully they'll come with little wind-up wheels attached to the bottom so you can stage your own destruction derbies with your friends' HD DVDmobiles.
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Postby wonkabar on Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:27 pm

seppukudkurosawa wrote:
tapehead wrote:Actually, I'd be expecting a considerable price drop for Blu Ray players soon - and HD DVD units, will of course, be given away for free at McDonalds.


Hopefully they'll come with little wind-up wheels attached to the bottom so you can have destruction derbies with your friends' HD DVDmobiles.


They'd probably lose to the BetaMobiles
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Postby Zarles on Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:49 pm

I was ready to call this thing for BR when Disney went that way, but this looks like the nail in the coffin. I just feel sorry for all those that attended BNAT if Blu-Ray really is the victor here. :lol:
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Postby Spifftacular SquirrelGirl on Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:54 am

Everything worked out just perfect for me. Ended up getting a PS3 on Friday and one of the first things I read on AICN is that WB has gone exclusive with the whole Blu-Ray thing.

So I'm just going to say... it's all my fault. Sorry. ;)
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Postby moose4787 on Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:14 am

I see this as nothing but positive, even though i was an HDDVD supporter it means that hopfully with 1 format all the people who were waiting out the war will buy a player, skyrocking the content sales.
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Postby King Psyz on Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:01 am

There's some hope for HD-DVD early adopters. In a show of humility Toshiba has announced or is going to offically announce this week that they will begin production of combo players with HD-DVD only players geared towards entry level.

They want to keep the format alive with existing catolouge through the end of 2008 at least.

But if nothing else it's pretty much setting up BD as the new official next format.
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Postby TheBaxter on Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:29 pm

Chairman Kaga wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:
tapehead wrote:
Chairman Kaga wrote:See. That's just firmware updates. I'm telling you folks a codec nightmare is on the horizon.


Yeah, maybe so, but DRM is fucking people's shit up right now.

I still think this is the real problem with home entertainment and HD.


oooh, don't get me started on DRM.

DRM MAKES ME SO MAD!!!!!! OOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! *shakes fist*

i won't even use iTunes because of that shit. give me something that i can buy once, and play everywhere, and i'll buy it. you know, like a CD.

But circumventing iTunes DRM is so simple. Just burn a CD, voila.


missed this with all the BluRay news. why would i want to buy on iTunes, just to burn it to CD so i can then re-rip it onto my computer? isn't downloading supposed to make things EASIER? no, when i can download a song and not have to jump through hoops to be able to listen to it wherever i want, THEN i'll start paying for downloads. i've got better things to do with my time then sit in front of the computer burning and ripping stuff.

PHYSICAL MEDIA FTW!!!!! SCREW YOU DOWNLOADED MEDIA!!!!
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Postby Zarles on Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:48 pm

King Psyz wrote:There's some hope for HD-DVD early adopters. In a show of humility Toshiba has announced or is going to offically announce this week that they will begin production of combo players with HD-DVD only players geared towards entry level.

They want to keep the format alive with existing catolouge through the end of 2008 at least.

But if nothing else it's pretty much setting up BD as the new official next format.


Personally, I think that's the way to go - make one affordable player that plays both, and then let the studios fight it out over the discs themselves. If you can play both, who cares which one wins out?

p.s. Hi, Psyz! :D
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Postby Fawst on Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:02 am

Whooooooa... Quint just dropped this little nugget in his Zodiac DC review.

Apparently Paramount may be jumping ship from HD-DVD. This is really not a long time after going HD-DVD exclusive. Seems like this "slow death" for HD-DVD could be a bullet to the noggin, if this story pans out.

My god, Sony could actually win a format war? What has the world come to?
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Postby tapehead on Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:15 am

TheBaxter wrote:
Chairman Kaga wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:
tapehead wrote:
Chairman Kaga wrote:See. That's just firmware updates. I'm telling you folks a codec nightmare is on the horizon.


Yeah, maybe so, but DRM is fucking people's shit up right now.

I still think this is the real problem with home entertainment and HD.


oooh, don't get me started on DRM.

DRM MAKES ME SO MAD!!!!!! OOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! *shakes fist*

i won't even use iTunes because of that shit. give me something that i can buy once, and play everywhere, and i'll buy it. you know, like a CD.

But circumventing iTunes DRM is so simple. Just burn a CD, voila.


missed this with all the BluRay news. why would i want to buy on iTunes, just to burn it to CD so i can then re-rip it onto my computer? isn't downloading supposed to make things EASIER? no, when i can download a song and not have to jump through hoops to be able to listen to it wherever i want, THEN i'll start paying for downloads. i've got better things to do with my time then sit in front of the computer burning and ripping stuff.

PHYSICAL MEDIA FTW!!!!! SCREW YOU DOWNLOADED MEDIA!!!!


Not to mention the 'average consumer' with a computer doesn't burn much media, and products and services like Netflicks and XBox are much more difficult to circumvent DRM-wise.
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Postby stereosforgeeks on Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:24 am

Fawst wrote:Whooooooa... Quint just dropped this little nugget in his Zodiac DC review.

Apparently Paramount may be jumping ship from HD-DVD. This is really not a long time after going HD-DVD exclusive. Seems like this "slow death" for HD-DVD could be a bullet to the noggin, if this story pans out.

My god, Sony could actually win a format war? What has the world come to?


*crossing my fingers* so I can actually start buying HD! Then we just need to start seeing criterion bluray releases :).
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Postby Fried Gold on Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:29 am

Fawst wrote:Whooooooa... Quint just dropped this little nugget in his Zodiac DC review.

Apparently Paramount may be jumping ship from HD-DVD. This is really not a long time after going HD-DVD exclusive. Seems like this "slow death" for HD-DVD could be a bullet to the noggin, if this story pans out.

My god, Sony could actually win a format war? What has the world come to?

I'm sure Sony still have time to screw it up...

...like trying to attach a memory stick to the surface of every disc.


...or deciding "blu" isn't a marketable colour anymore and changing the format to "grn-ray".
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Postby godzillasushi on Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:32 am

Warners went and messed everything up. lol. That basically forces HD studios to move into BR I guess.

It is Warners though. They do still have Universal and Paramount which aren't pushovers themselves. Not that it matters.

I should look up some data on movies like Transformers which was probably a big hit for HD-DVD. That alone must have pushed units...

The PS3 has been known to turn people into zombies and accelerate aging.....FYI. I'd get the stand-alone players to avoid such devastation.
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Postby Fawst on Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:57 am

godzillasushi wrote:They do still have Universal and Paramount which aren't pushovers themselves.


Did you not read the post I just made a little while ago? :)

I did some more research. New Line will be Blu-Ray exclusive along with Warners. Paramount DOES have an out-clause should Warner move to Blu-Ray, which they have. People are expecting an announcement within the next day. Universal would be the only real holdout left, and you know they aren't going to support a "dead" format. Shit, at this point, the major A/V sites are calling this one in favor of Blu-Ray, coming right out and saying the format war is over.
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Postby TheBaxter on Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:59 am

if paramount jumps back to blu-ray, that'll be only one studio left that's hd-dvd exclusive, and you know universal won't take long to follow. the tide has definitely turned.
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Postby vicious_bastard on Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:00 pm

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ea637496-bd8d-11dc-b7e6-0000779fd2ac.html

Paramount have a get-out clause according to the FT. Game over, man. Now Sony can (and will, to offset all their loss-leaders and $500m payout to Warners) keep prices as high as they like and it will likely be years before a fully-featured profile 2.0 player is reasonably priced. Bollocks to the PS3 as it can't handle DTS audio, nor will it ever be able to as it is a hardware issue. I have an HD-DVD drive in my notebook but only bought two discs, so am happy enough to have a good upconverting DVD player for now.

I agree that neither format has any chance of overtaking DVD as the quality jump is nowhere near that of VHS to DVD. I read about an experiment recently which tested whether your Average Joe could tell the difference between 480p, 720p and 1080p on a 50 inch screen. They couldn't. With the confusion, silly player/disc prices and very cheap upconverting players available, I doubt BD is going to have much of an impact. Not for years anyway, and by then physical media itself will be on the verge of being obsolete.

edit: 2007 DVD sales and rental revenue: $23.4bn, BD and HD-DVD combined: around $300m. DVD is king.
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Postby godzillasushi on Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:18 pm

Fawst wrote:
godzillasushi wrote:They do still have Universal and Paramount which aren't pushovers themselves.


Did you not read the post I just made a little while ago? :)


Yes I did dude. But last time I checked....they still have Paramount. What was wrong with what I said? lol.
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Postby TheBaxter on Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:25 pm

i disagree with the idea that prices are going to stay high on BluRay. the idea that the format war has prematurely lowered prices has some merit (especially for HD-DVD, not so much for BR), but now that CE manufacturers know which format will win, we're going to see a lot more players coming to market, a lot more variety and choice in what to buy in BR players. we'll see high-end units and cheaper models. sony isn't the only company making players, and now all the companies who have been looking at making dual-format players and stuff like that can finally forget about needing to support HD-DVD, or deciding whether to make players for HD-DVD, BR, or both, and instead concentrate on a single hi-def format. this is one key to prices coming down even further. BR player prices would still be over $500 probably if it weren't for samsung and their early-release BR player. with more manufacturers jumping on the BR bandwagon, there will be more competition and that will drive BR player prices down. the artificial competition of the format war will now be replaced by the normal, company vs. company competition with each company trying to deliver more features and lower prices.

also, even though HD-DVD may be going away, there's still a format war: BluRay vs. DVD. and that one isn't anywhere close to being won yet. BR will need to significantly lower prices on both hardware and media to compete with DVD. that's where the true test of BR's longevity will be. DVD has set the standard for what people expect to pay for movies. if BR doesn't become competitive pricewise and get mass market acceptance now, they truly will be the next laserdisc. however, i think the studios and sony both have big stakes in making sure BR grows, and they'll do whatever they can to increase the market share of acceptance and move consumers from SD to HD movies.

finally, the thing that ultimately truly drives prices down is the economy of scale. it wasn't until DVD gained a foothold in the mass market that prices on players and discs finally started coming down. when you can produce and sell discs in the millions, rather than the thousands, you can sell them for a lot less and still make money. now that the format war is over, HD at least has a chance of becoming more than a niche market. there's no way it was ever going to gain a foothold with consumers while there was confusion and uncertainty over format; now there is one clear format that consumers can focus on, and an opportunity for HD movies to take over from DVD.
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Postby stereosforgeeks on Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:37 pm

The other thing that the DVD vs. HD war will slow things is HD TV adoption rates. I still know plenty of people that dont understand the difference or need for HD. I havent looked at the stats for adoption rates of HD TVs lately but with TV prices coming down drastically recently it seems that this is ineveitable. Once people can truly see the difference on a HD set the push to purley HD media will be inevitable.
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Postby godzillasushi on Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:42 pm

One thing that came from Microsoft recently is that the 360 won't put HD-DVD stuff into their Xbox's. They are bypassing completely and going into HD downloads. Makes a whole lot more sense then forcing BR onto people.

If BR ever gets that foothold on the market I would be interested in seeing if it even matters since HD downloads could easily come at the same time.

It's like, this gap between HD downloads and new physical media seems pretty small.

Right now they have a lot of HD material on Xbox Live so.....

*shrugs*

If they can make the downloads accessable and easy to use.....
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Postby ThisIsTheGirl on Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:02 pm

vicious_bastard wrote:Bollox to the PS3 as it can't handle DTS audio, nor will it ever be able to as it is a hardware issue.



GAAAAAAAA!


As Kirk would say, "'xake!"


Is this really true? Because I'd been led to believe that the PS Triple can do DTS, it just can't do the very top-of-the-range 7 channel DTS. I'm sure I was also told that it's possible to connect some kind of 3rd party peripheral to the HDMI port which enables it to output in 7 channels.

I'm pretty sure it can handle 5 channel DTS though, which is cool for me as I'd be happy enough with 5 channels (you'd need a pretty big living room to justify 7 channels in acoustic terms - mine is small enough that I wouldn't notice any difference).

But, as far as I know, it can do 5 channel DTS - can anyone confirm/deny? Because I thought I'd solved my console dilemma, but V_b has essentially taken a big turd on my hopes and dreams....AGAIN. :lol:
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Postby Lord Voldemoo on Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:11 pm

ThisIsTheGirl wrote:
vicious_bastard wrote:Bollox to the PS3 as it can't handle DTS audio, nor will it ever be able to as it is a hardware issue.



GAAAAAAAA!


As Kirk would say, "'xake!"


Is this really true? Because I'd been led to believe that the PS Triple can do DTS, it just can't do the very top-of-the-range 7 channel DTS. I'm sure I was also told that it's possible to connect some kind of 3rd party peripheral to the HDMI port which enables it to output in 7 channels.

I'm pretty sure it can handle 5 channel DTS though, which is cool for me as I'd be happy enough with 5 channels (you'd need a pretty big living room to justify 7 channels in acoustic terms - mine is small enough that I wouldn't notice any difference).

But, as far as I know, it can do 5 channel DTS - can anyone confirm/deny? Because I thought I'd solved my console dilemma, but V_b has essentially taken a big turd on my hopes and dreams....AGAIN. :lol:


From Best Buy's product specs page for the PS3:

Dolby 5.1 DTS surround sound envelops you in awesome audio for an incredible gaming or movie experience
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Postby TheBaxter on Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:12 pm

godzillasushi wrote:One thing that came from Microsoft recently is that the 360 won't put HD-DVD stuff into their Xbox's. They are bypassing completely and going into HD downloads. Makes a whole lot more sense then forcing BR onto people.


more sense than forcing HD downloads on people? what if i want a movie that i don't have to rebuy if my hard drive crashes? what makes sense is not forcing either, and letting the consumer choose whether they want downloads or physical media.
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Postby ThisIsTheGirl on Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:15 pm

Cheers Voldy!


VB - curse your eyes!
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Postby godzillasushi on Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:26 pm

TheBaxter wrote:
godzillasushi wrote:One thing that came from Microsoft recently is that the 360 won't put HD-DVD stuff into their Xbox's. They are bypassing completely and going into HD downloads. Makes a whole lot more sense then forcing BR onto people.


more sense than forcing HD downloads on people? what if i want a movie that i don't have to rebuy if my hard drive crashes? what makes sense is not forcing either, and letting the consumer choose whether they want downloads or physical media.


Well if you bought it then it would be yours forever. Just re-download of course. If that's what you meant. Obviously when you buy something like that it's always yours. Right now I don't know if it's a rental thing or not though.

And if they put HD-DVD hardware into it then it costs more. Luckily with the 360 you have the option to buy HD-DVD without having to pay extra for it with the console if you don't want to. The consumer can still choose in this case...
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Postby TheBaxter on Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:31 pm

godzillasushi wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:
godzillasushi wrote:One thing that came from Microsoft recently is that the 360 won't put HD-DVD stuff into their Xbox's. They are bypassing completely and going into HD downloads. Makes a whole lot more sense then forcing BR onto people.


more sense than forcing HD downloads on people? what if i want a movie that i don't have to rebuy if my hard drive crashes? what makes sense is not forcing either, and letting the consumer choose whether they want downloads or physical media.


Well if you bought it then it would be yours forever. Just re-download of course. If that's what you meant. Obviously when you buy something like that it's always yours. Right now I don't know if it's a rental thing or not though.

And if they put HD-DVD hardware into it then it costs more. Luckily with the 360 you have the option to buy HD-DVD without having to pay extra for it with the console if you don't want to. The consumer can still choose in this case...


i don't think it's so obvious to the greedy studios who want to squeeze every nickel and dime out of people. i think you trust them way too much if you think they'll just let you re-download a movie for free because you lost the file.

i'm not interested in gaming systems anyway, so if i get a PS3, i'm buying it specifically as a blu-ray player, with the gaming as an extra bonus feature i may or may not use. so in that sense, maybe sony is forcing me to pay extra for a gaming system on my blu-ray player. but since their standalone blu-ray player costs the same as the ps3, it doesn't really seem like i'm paying extra.
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Postby godzillasushi on Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:34 pm

TheBaxter wrote:
godzillasushi wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:
godzillasushi wrote:One thing that came from Microsoft recently is that the 360 won't put HD-DVD stuff into their Xbox's. They are bypassing completely and going into HD downloads. Makes a whole lot more sense then forcing BR onto people.


more sense than forcing HD downloads on people? what if i want a movie that i don't have to rebuy if my hard drive crashes? what makes sense is not forcing either, and letting the consumer choose whether they want downloads or physical media.


Well if you bought it then it would be yours forever. Just re-download of course. If that's what you meant. Obviously when you buy something like that it's always yours. Right now I don't know if it's a rental thing or not though.

And if they put HD-DVD hardware into it then it costs more. Luckily with the 360 you have the option to buy HD-DVD without having to pay extra for it with the console if you don't want to. The consumer can still choose in this case...


i don't think it's so obvious to the greedy studios who want to squeeze every nickel and dime out of people. i think you trust them way too much if you think they'll just let you re-download a movie for free because you lost the file.

i'm not interested in gaming systems anyway, so if i get a PS3, i'm buying it specifically as a blu-ray player, with the gaming as an extra bonus feature i may or may not use. so in that sense, maybe sony is forcing me to pay extra for a gaming system on my blu-ray player. but since their standalone blu-ray player costs the same as the ps3, it doesn't really seem like i'm paying extra.


And there ya go :wink:

But yea, it does come down to how everything works. We should be the owners of the downloadable media. It makes sense to me. Like with XBL Arcade, if you download a game for 10 bucks and remove it from your HDD a month later, you can redownload without paying again. I think that's how it works. So I just assumed it would be the same situation for this. They could rip people off I suppose. Since they can't double-dip physically hehe.
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Postby vicious_bastard on Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:02 pm

ThisIsTheGirl wrote:Cheers Voldy!


VB - curse your eyes!


I'm talking about DTS-HD audio. It can't do TrueHD either.
When the PS3 hit the street it was recognized as one of the most full featured Blu-ray players to date, but it seems now that PS3 owners aren't getting everything they thought they were. It has recently been uncovered that although the PS3 does have an HDMI 1.3 port, the software does not support bit stream audio. What this means for Blu-ray fans is that they can't enjoy Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD because there is no way to get the bits out of the PS3. Of course the DTS track can still be down mixed and PCM audio is supported, but so much for being the most capable Blu-ray player available.


http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/02/why-the-ps3-isnt-the-best-blu-ray-player/

From Engadget HD.
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Postby King Psyz on Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:06 pm

Well if it's software that's easily fixed with a firmware update.

How recent was that article? They recently released a new firmware that added even more media features.
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Postby TheBaxter on Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:16 pm

i don't pay too much attention to audio specs. to be perfectly honest, i can't tell the difference between dolby 5.1 and DTS, even though DTS is supposed to be so much better. there are so many chains in the audio link: the source, the player, the receiver/amplifier, cables, speakers, and most importantly of all, the room itself. and it's only as strong as the weakest link in that chain. i've got pretty good speakers, but i doubt they're anywhere near good enough to hear the difference between different audio codecs. and my room, which i have very few options with, is hardly an acoustically neutral, perfect listening environment. i feel the same way about the sound as some people do HD - it's good enough for me, and i don't feel any need to spend thousands of dollars for slight improvements that i probably won't even notice. the difference between HD and SD is huge compared to the difference between the various audio codecs, and most people can't hear the difference anyway.
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Postby King Psyz on Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:17 pm

Well comments are just that, and frankly when the article itself mentions an update could solve this I'll go with that.

Not that most people even have a system that can replicate DTS HD anyway...
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Postby ThisIsTheGirl on Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:21 pm

VB wrote:I'm talking about DTS-HD audio.


Well you should have said so!

Also, do you think there's a genuinely noticable difference between the two, when played in the average front room? Methinks you're giving your ears too much credit....

Plus, you know it outputs PCM audio, right? Well, it's been a few years since I was producing D 'n B, but I seem to recall that this is completely uncompressed, and hence is better than compressed formats (of which I believe DTS HD is one). Like I said in the first place - the only issue here is really to do with 7:1 output (which is what DTS HD is) and storage space (since DTS HD is still compressed, it presumably takes up less room than PCM) - but unless you happen to have a full-sized Screening Room, you aren't going to be aware of the difference, trust me.

ETA: corrected my multiple spelling mistakes.

Let me put it to you like this, VB:

Why do you see the lack of DTS HD as a disadvantage?
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Postby stereosforgeeks on Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:26 pm

King Psyz wrote:Well comments are just that, and frankly when the article itself mentions an update could solve this I'll go with that.

Not that most people even have a system that can replicate DTS HD anyway...


The PS3 has been pushing out updates to PS# for BluRay quite frequently. I would imagine that this update is in the pipeline.
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Postby TheBaxter on Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:43 pm

in the consumer A/V world, there are always lots of buzzwords used to sell us on new tech. and there's always a debate whether any of it is actually noticably better than what came before. what looks better, 720p or 1080i? and isn't 1080p better than either? 1080p is definitely better, but can you notice the difference? some people can (with a big enough TV and a well-trained eye) and most others can't. how about contrast ratio, your tv has 2000:1 but that new one over there has 10000:1, so it must be better right? but can you actually tell? is MPEG-4 better than MPEG-2, and is VC-1 better than both? can anyone actually tell what codec they're seeing when they're watching a movie?

there are so many new audio standards i don't even know what is what. TrueHD, DTS HD, and probably a few others. for some people, the difference may be audible, but i would suspect they have incredibly expensive equipment and an acoustically-designed listening space, as well as very sensitive ears. i know i'm probably not ever going to be in that situation, so i don't worry about it. if i did spend that much money on the sound aspect of my viewing/listening environment, then it would probably matter a lot though. everyone has to decide at what point their system is "good enough" to meet their needs, which are different for everyone. for me, i feel my needs are met well enough by 5.1 dolby and a good 1080i transfer. maybe if i get a bigger room and a lot of money, i'll want 7 channels or a big projector with 1080p capability, but for now, i know the limits of what i can or can't perceive a difference, and that makes choosing what to buy a lot easier.
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Postby vicious_bastard on Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:55 pm

ThisIsTheGirl wrote:
Let me put it to you like this, VB:

Why do you see the lack of DTS HD as a disadvantage?


Different strokes for different folks, eh? I would personally want a machine capable of outputting bitstream audio - next-gen audio to go with the next-gen picture. The PS3 downsamples the audio track on the disc from DTS-HD Master Audio (max 24 megabit/s, up to 7.1 channels at 96 kHz/24-bit or 5.1 channels at 192 kHz/24-bit.) to a 'core version' (max 1.5 megabit/s, up to 6.1 channels at 48 kHz/24-bit.) Granted, not many people will spend enough money on a system to notice the difference, but it is a difference.

Once again Sony fanboys, this appears to be a hardware contraint which MIGHT be solved in the future and might not - doesn't look likely though as it is not as simple as a codec update. If I had the cash (or indeed an HD TV set and a house to put it in) I wouldn't buy a PS3 because of this uncertainty and because, as I had with my standard def DVD system, I would want a set-up that can output the best possible sound.

The PS3 is a bargain for what it can do but not the best BD player around - that was my point TITG. Scrape my faeces off your dreams and enjoy!

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Postby Tyrone_Shoelaces on Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:58 pm

Now there's XstreamHD getting into the HD download game. I'm curious to see if they can get any traction because that's a decent price for entry, though no mention of the subscription price.

If any of these people are serious about broadband delivery of HD they had better start lobbying for massive improvements to the infrastructure before we're all reduced to dial-up speeds. I'd also like to know what their plans are for "last mile" installation. Physical media is likely to be around for a while because so much of the US is still rural and the telcos are too cheap to go that last mile to install wires or towers.
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Postby stereosforgeeks on Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:01 pm

Tyrone_Shoelaces wrote:Now there's XstreamHD getting into the HD download game. I'm curious to see if they can get any traction because that's a decent price for entry, though no mention of the subscription price.

If any of these people are serious about broadband delivery of HD they had better start lobbying for massive improvements to the infrastructure before we're all reduced to dial-up speeds. I'd also like to know what their plans are for "last mile" installation. Physical media is likely to be around for a while because so much of the US is still rural and the telcos are too cheap to go that last mile to install wires or towers.


Until the US catches up with South Korea in terms of infrastructure I dont see this as an immediate threat to physical media. We need fast reliable internet and cable/dsl dont cut it.
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Postby Fawst on Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:25 pm

Sushi, the article I posted was about how it looked like Paramount was about to jump ship to BR exclusivity, so when you said "Well, HD-DVD still has Paramount," it seemed like you missed the point of my post which was "HD-DVD may not have Paramount very much longer." :D
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Postby ThisIsTheGirl on Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:29 pm

Cheers for the info, VB - and I agree, I think this is a matter of preference rather than one thing being "better" than the other. Personally, I think the whole concept of next-gen audio can be misleading, since you would actually get a better quality of sound if they sold the movies audio track separately on vinyl and you played that through a decent turntable with a good stylus, but that's a whole 'nother debate!

Enjoy that dinner, and I'll set about removing these skidmarks......
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