BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ HOLY FRAK!!!)

Postby Leckomaniac on Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:55 am

Lord Voldemoo wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:
Chairman Kaga wrote:Can't disagree more.

Baltar's contribution is throughout the series not simply his speech in CiC (of course without his speech in the CiC Hera would be dead or stolen and the human race would not have continued). The events of the series his guilt, failed presidency, love affair with Six, opening Deanna's mind, his faux messianic cult all lead to changing him from the self centered atheist he started out as to the man with faith that could convince Cavil in that one moment.


i could buy that, if the speech led to a truce that lasted more than 5 seconds. maybe angel-six and angel-baltar should've been talking to tyrol instead, and then he wouldn't have fuxxored it all up and made baltar's speech irrelevant.


Baltar IS the show. It's not the destination, it's the journey. I 10000% agree with Kaga and Burl on this one. Apollo (right?) asked the question in the first part of the finale, when had Baltar ever done anything that was not about Baltar? In the end, he did just that, he chose to go after Hera with the group. He didn't jump in front of a bullet to save her or anything else quite so hackneyed. He made a choice that he hadn't made since he told Six to leave back on Caprica because he had to stay with his father: he did something that was not in his best interests. All of the things that Kaga noted above fed directly and, I think, most satisfyingly into that decision. The CIC speech wasn't the "turning point", there was no real turning point, it was cumulative, but if there was one to point to it was when Baltar decided to stay on Galactica and put on a helmet.

No throwing the Emperor down the elevator shaft for Baltar, he's more interesting than that. And it worked for me.


Yup. I agree. I think Baltar's story is so essential to the show and probably is one of my favorites.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ HOLY FRAK!!!)

Postby Leckomaniac on Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:58 am

The Vicar wrote:For all the short comings in plot ( unsatisfying resolutions or that we-made-this-up-as-we-went taste in our mouths) they were more than compensated for by the characters.
I'm really going to miss Saul Tigh and Bill Adama and Laura Roslin and Kara Thrace and Duella and Billie and that gods damned ship. Watching her back break was heart rending. No over played Kirkian speech ( I give, she takes....) for Galactica - in the lead up episodes we saw how Bill Adama felt about her. To the point where some complained. Tough. It needed to be clearly understood that, in the end, BIll Adama loses the two people he loved most - Laura Roslin and Galactica. Of course he can't just turn around and go on like nothing happened. He was going to spend at least a good portion of his remaining days doing exactly what he was doing when we see him for the last time - mourning Laura Roslin. "...it's almost heavenly...reminds me of you..." .
I'm going to miss these characters. I cried in a lot of places when I reran the tape. Saying goodbye to them as they said goodbye to each other was tough. By that measure Battlestar Galactica was "almost heavenly". The aftermath of Galactica's last jump, watching her convulse and shudder, broke my heart ( and, as Bill Adama had said, she did not fail them; whether having raptors jump on her flight deck or ramming the colony or one last desperate jump, she did not fail them ). Watching the fleet turn into the sun, another heartbreaking moment, was sweetened by a brief musical cue. Bill Adama saying goodbye to Lee and Kara. Roslin's death. Bill Adama sitting by Roslin's grave in what would have been a perfect final shot of the whole series for me.
Not that it was all about sorrow and loss. Roslin and Cottle's scene was small and perfect and correct. "Can we NOT tell her what the plan is?" "Frak!!" Bang. I loved that Racetrack ( I think it was her) blows the shit out of the Cylon colony from beyond the frakking grave!!! Godsdamned hardcore. The pre-Cylon attack scenes with Saul Tigh and Adama grilling Boomer ( "The doctor's in! Leave your neurosis at the door!") and the scenes payoff. Saul's snickering at Adama's "and you have no sense of humor, doctor..." was classic Tigh/Adama banter, as witnessed in the Boomer flashback.
I won't delve into the fact that Baltar's great scene, where he finally becomes someone useful, goes for naught after Chief throttles Tory. Except personally, it becomes a totally meaningless gesture.
So it goes.
Don't care. I am going to blithely ignore the things that didn't work or didn't unfold quite as some of us would have liked. So many of us thought Tigh and Adama would die in a blaze of glory, burning like a Norse funeral ship and killing as many Cylons as she could going down. Or that Thrace and Adama Jr would become "Adama and Eve".
Don't care. This series didn't pull us in because they consistently made safe or overtly predictable choices. It stayed true to that, at least. The investment was in the characters. If only Wall Street had invested so wisely....
Greatest series of all time? That's a wild boast. Does BSG deserve to be in the conversation? Frak yes. Exodus Part II, alone, deserves consideration as the finest hour of Sci-Fi ever broadcast. And I would remove the qualifier "Sci-Fi".
Everyone who contributed to BSG deserves and has my unending thanks. You created something rare and special and beautiful. Its a treasure. I will think about the people you created, the world they struggled in and the story of their lives. I will miss seeing them every week. And when I roll the tape again, many times, I'll be so damned glad to see them. Because you made me care.
And that makes BSG better than a great television series.
Have to dash. Bill Adama's last scene is coming up again, and I'll be losing the ability to type.

So say we all. Yeah, I'll frakking go there.



And the music was great. Perfect.


As I have come to expect, leave it to Vicar to preach the truth. Probably the only left doing so.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby Fievel on Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:08 am

LegoKenobi wrote:
so sorry wrote:I wonder if he had the same sense of freedom and excitement two weeks later when he couldn't light a fucking fire or find anything to eat. Idiots.


they didn't abandon ALL tech -- just MOST of it. hell, adama even kept the raptor! i'm sure they were fine for awhile as they got their feel for things.


Now I want to see archaeological crews digging up Adama's Raptor.
Just a little bit.
It would make me laugh.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby LegoKenobi on Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:10 am

Fievel wrote:Now I want to see archaeological crews digging up Adama's Raptor.
Just a little bit.
It would make me laugh.


lol -- now THAT'S what they should have had in there somewhere! then again, maybe that is what is at area 51...
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby Fievel on Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:19 am

LegoKenobi wrote:
Fievel wrote:Now I want to see archaeological crews digging up Adama's Raptor.
Just a little bit.
It would make me laugh.


lol -- now THAT'S what they should have had in there somewhere! then again, maybe that is what is at area 51...


Or maybe we'll see it on that new SciFi... errr SyFy show coming out this summer about the big warehouse in the middle of nowhere.... can't remember the name, but I saw the previews during BSG.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby Fried Gold on Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:43 pm

The last BSG boxset should have a pseudo-documentary where Tony Robinson and the Time Team excavate the remains of the first Galactican settlements.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby LegoKenobi on Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:43 pm

ok, just finished listening to the final podcast, and there's a lot of interesting things in there. for one, he goes through and outlines the original concept for the final season, and the changes are significant -- and, i think, ultimately better. in the original idea, ellen was going to resurrect, discover that tigh had a relationship with caprica 6, freak out, and join cavil in a plan to capture hera and probably destroy humanity in the process.

the big thing that i glommed on to was his description of the whole concept about baltar giving that speech in the CIC that saves the day. i know some people have problems with it -- it doesn't bother me -- but ron moore's rationalization of it was that he felt it was VERY perfect that the single character who was responsible for the downfall of humanity at the beginning of the series was also the key to saving all of humanity at the end of the series. when he puts it that way, i have to agree that it's perfect. baltar's journey was long and in the end he is fully redeemed.

OH -- and in his cameo, you can't see it, but ron moore is wearing a jimi hendrix t-shirt, but they cropped it out (licensing issues? too over the top? dunno).

anyway, there's lots more little nuggets of info. it's worth listening to. on the DVD, the finale is going to have about 20 extra minutes of stuff, too. whoo!
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby Fried Gold on Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:26 pm

One of you should be able to clarify this...

Did the fleet ever find out that it was Baltar who was responsible for enabling the Cylon's original attack?
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby The Vicar on Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:32 pm

Fried Gold wrote:One of you should be able to clarify this...

Did the fleet ever find out that it was Baltar who was responsible for enabling the Cylon's original attack?


No.

Although Felix Giaetta (?) came close to figuring it out.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby LegoKenobi on Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:39 pm

The Vicar wrote:
Fried Gold wrote:One of you should be able to clarify this...

Did the fleet ever find out that it was Baltar who was responsible for enabling the Cylon's original attack?


No.

Although Felix Giaetta (?) came close to figuring it out.


i thought roslin figured it out at some point, didn't she?
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby The Vicar on Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:37 pm

LegoKenobi wrote:
The Vicar wrote:
Fried Gold wrote:One of you should be able to clarify this...

Did the fleet ever find out that it was Baltar who was responsible for enabling the Cylon's original attack?


No.

Although Felix Giaetta (?) came close to figuring it out.


i thought roslin figured it out at some point, didn't she?


True. She didn't have all the pieces, but she tied Giaus to Caprica Six.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby Chairman Kaga on Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:41 pm

Gaius confessed to Roslin on board the basestar while he was bleeding to death and he was loopy.

Also because it came up earlier in the thread before Daybreak part 2, Baltar's cylon detector did work but after he discovered Boomer was a Cylon (and angelic Six warned him Boomer might kill him) he rigged the test so everyone would pass as human because it just made things simpler that way.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ HOLY FRAK!!!)

Postby TheBaxter on Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:45 pm

Lord Voldemoo wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:
Chairman Kaga wrote:Can't disagree more.

Baltar's contribution is throughout the series not simply his speech in CiC (of course without his speech in the CiC Hera would be dead or stolen and the human race would not have continued). The events of the series his guilt, failed presidency, love affair with Six, opening Deanna's mind, his faux messianic cult all lead to changing him from the self centered atheist he started out as to the man with faith that could convince Cavil in that one moment.


i could buy that, if the speech led to a truce that lasted more than 5 seconds. maybe angel-six and angel-baltar should've been talking to tyrol instead, and then he wouldn't have fuxxored it all up and made baltar's speech irrelevant.


Baltar IS the show. It's not the destination, it's the journey. I 10000% agree with Kaga and Burl on this one. Apollo (right?) asked the question in the first part of the finale, when had Baltar ever done anything that was not about Baltar? In the end, he did just that, he chose to go after Hera with the group. He didn't jump in front of a bullet to save her or anything else quite so hackneyed. He made a choice that he hadn't made since he told Six to leave back on Caprica because he had to stay with his father: he did something that was not in his best interests. All of the things that Kaga noted above fed directly and, I think, most satisfyingly into that decision. The CIC speech wasn't the "turning point", there was no real turning point, it was cumulative, but if there was one to point to it was when Baltar decided to stay on Galactica and put on a helmet.

No throwing the Emperor down the elevator shaft for Baltar, he's more interesting than that. And it worked for me.


BSG the show is the journey. BSG the finale was the destination. i've loved the show, and Baltar's part of it (well, except all that stuff with his harem). the destination, as the finale presents it, didn't live up to the journey that led up to it. so at least in respect to baltar's story, the finale was a let-down given the journey he went on to get there.
now, if all this time, Baltar had been just a regular character like apollo or tyrol or almost any of the others, the end of his journey would have been perfect. but for a character that keeps getting told by an angel that he's the author of humanity's future, the voice of god, etc. etc.... it wasn't nearly as epic or important as it needed to be to justify that kind of build up.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby Chairman Kaga on Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:31 pm

I fail to see how it wasn't epic. Without his intervention Hera would not go on to continue the human race thus what he was being told was accurate. Unless you mean to equate the lack of "epicness" with the lack of "action".

from the wiki article on Daybreak part 2+3 (I assume this comes from the final podcast though I haven't listened to it).

Initially, Helo and Athena were supposed to die and Hera would be raised by Gaius Baltar and Caprica-Six. This would make sense as in the Opera House vision Baltar and Caprica-Six take Hera into the Opera House and Athena and Roslin don't make it inside. It also lends well for a symbolical structure of the series: Caprica-Six kills a child at the beginning and raises one at the end, they destroyed one civilisation and then at the end they nurture the foundation of another one.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ HOLY FRAK!!!)

Postby tapehead on Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:35 pm

TheBaxter wrote:BSG the show is the journey. BSG the finale was the destination. i've loved the show, and Baltar's part of it (well, except all that stuff with his harem). the destination, as the finale presents it, didn't live up to the journey that led up to it. so at least in respect to baltar's story, the finale was a let-down given the journey he went on to get there.
now, if all this time, Baltar had been just a regular character like apollo or tyrol or almost any of the others, the end of his journey would have been perfect. but for a character that keeps getting told by an angel that he's the author of humanity's future, the voice of god, etc. etc.... it wasn't nearly as epic or important as it needed to be to justify that kind of build up.


Perhaps it was his destiny to lay the foundation for an agrarian civilisation - with the farming.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby TheBaxter on Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:47 pm

Chairman Kaga wrote:I fail to see how it wasn't epic. Without his intervention Hera would not go on to continue the human race thus what he was being told was accurate. Unless you mean to equate the lack of "epicness" with the lack of "action".

from the wiki article on Daybreak part 2+3 (I assume this comes from the final podcast though I haven't listened to it).

Initially, Helo and Athena were supposed to die and Hera would be raised by Gaius Baltar and Caprica-Six. This would make sense as in the Opera House vision Baltar and Caprica-Six take Hera into the Opera House and Athena and Roslin don't make it inside. It also lends well for a symbolical structure of the series: Caprica-Six kills a child at the beginning and raises one at the end, they destroyed one civilisation and then at the end they nurture the foundation of another one.


well, the human race was already on earth before galactica got there, so hera wasn't necessary. if anything, all she did was carry on the cylon race, since she's half-cylon. of course, there were 30-some thousand other humans, and who knows how many other cylons, who also made it to earth and could've carried on their respective races if she hadn't.

i like that alternate ending better, although that's mostly just because helo dies.

tapehead wrote:Perhaps it was his destiny to lay the foundation for an agrarian civilisation - with the farming.


perhaps. although that's not part of the finale. to even say it's hinted at would be exceedingly generous.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby Chairman Kaga on Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:44 am

TheBaxter wrote:
Chairman Kaga wrote:I fail to see how it wasn't epic. Without his intervention Hera would not go on to continue the human race thus what he was being told was accurate. Unless you mean to equate the lack of "epicness" with the lack of "action".

from the wiki article on Daybreak part 2+3 (I assume this comes from the final podcast though I haven't listened to it).

Initially, Helo and Athena were supposed to die and Hera would be raised by Gaius Baltar and Caprica-Six. This would make sense as in the Opera House vision Baltar and Caprica-Six take Hera into the Opera House and Athena and Roslin don't make it inside. It also lends well for a symbolical structure of the series: Caprica-Six kills a child at the beginning and raises one at the end, they destroyed one civilisation and then at the end they nurture the foundation of another one.


well, the human race was already on earth before galactica got there, so hera wasn't necessary. if anything, all she did was carry on the cylon race, since she's half-cylon. of course,

The entire point of saving Hera was that the "angels" were starting a new cycle wherein humans and cylons were both preserved via interbreeding (since the three previous described cycles of separation ended in near extinction). The homo sapiens wandering Tanzania don't fit that bill .

I get it Baxter there wasn't enough "epicness" to Baltar saving the mother of all of humanity for you. In the next remake of the series one can only hope there is a big enough gun battle by the character to satiate you, perhaps he could take a cliche dive in front of a bullet, or sacrifice himself to blow something up real good.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby TheBaxter on Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:46 am

Chairman Kaga wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:
Chairman Kaga wrote:I fail to see how it wasn't epic. Without his intervention Hera would not go on to continue the human race thus what he was being told was accurate. Unless you mean to equate the lack of "epicness" with the lack of "action".

from the wiki article on Daybreak part 2+3 (I assume this comes from the final podcast though I haven't listened to it).

Initially, Helo and Athena were supposed to die and Hera would be raised by Gaius Baltar and Caprica-Six. This would make sense as in the Opera House vision Baltar and Caprica-Six take Hera into the Opera House and Athena and Roslin don't make it inside. It also lends well for a symbolical structure of the series: Caprica-Six kills a child at the beginning and raises one at the end, they destroyed one civilisation and then at the end they nurture the foundation of another one.


well, the human race was already on earth before galactica got there, so hera wasn't necessary. if anything, all she did was carry on the cylon race, since she's half-cylon. of course,

The entire point of saving Hera was that the "angels" were starting a new cycle wherein humans and cylons were both preserved via interbreeding (since the three previous described cycles of separation ended in near extinction). The homo sapiens wandering Tanzania don't fit that bill .

I get it Baxter there wasn't enough "epicness" to Baltar saving the mother of all of humanity for you. In the next remake of the series one can only hope there is a big enough gun battle by the character to satiate you, perhaps he could take a cliche dive in front of a bullet, or sacrifice himself to blow something up real good.


i never said anything about gun battles or more explosions or anything of that sort. the whole first hour+ of the finale was gun battles and giant 'splosions, so if that was what i meant by an "epic" or "important" end to baltar's story arc, i would have been satisfied. and i wasn't satisfied, so obviously that's not what i was looking for.
i was looking for a storyline for baltar that justified the constant attention and importance given to that character by the angelic forces or whatever they were, something that transcended the importance of other characters, like roslin and adama and starbuck, who didn't have that constant contact with god from the very beginning of the series to the very end. this finale didn't live up to that promise. i'm glad you found it a satisfying end for the character, but as far as i'm concerned, it fell way short of where it needed to go to make everything else that happened to baltar in the previous four seasons make sense.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby MonkeyM666 on Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:52 am

TheBaxter wrote:...but as far as i'm concerned, it fell way short of where it needed to go to make everything else that happened to baltar in the previous four seasons make sense.




God did it...
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby TheBaxter on Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:54 am

MonkeyM666 wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:...but as far as i'm concerned, it fell way short of where it needed to go to make everything else that happened to baltar in the previous four seasons make sense.




God did it...


ooohhhh, don't get me started on my OTHER problem with the finale...
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby MonkeyM666 on Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:55 am

TheBaxter wrote:
MonkeyM666 wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:...but as far as i'm concerned, it fell way short of where it needed to go to make everything else that happened to baltar in the previous four seasons make sense.




God did it...


ooohhhh, don't get me started on my OTHER problem with the finale...



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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby LegoKenobi on Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:13 am

TheBaxter wrote:ooohhhh, don't get me started on my OTHER problem with the finale...


but, come on -- this thread's almost at 100 pages! we MUST keep going....!
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby TheBaxter on Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:34 am

LegoKenobi wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:ooohhhh, don't get me started on my OTHER problem with the finale...


but, come on -- this thread's almost at 100 pages! we MUST keep going....!


we can just merge this thread with the GOD thread, and solve both our problems.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby Fievel on Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:44 am

I'm still wondering how, and if, the movie The Plan will flesh out any lingering storylines left on the show.
Or if it will just be two hours of "I hate the humans. Stupid humans. Frak them, let's kill 'em all!!"
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby papalazeru on Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:41 am

The Plan is basically, how Ronald D Moore will rob you blind with the boxed sets.

Roll on Lucas the 2nd.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby Hermanator X on Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:49 am

papalazeru wrote:The Plan is basically, how Ronald D Moore will rob you blind with the boxed sets.

Roll on Lucas the 2nd.


Attack of the Clone.

As for the religion aspect of the show, im fine with "higher powers" in my fiction (to an extent) its in real life that it drives me barmy.
BSG certainly worked towards the limits of my tolerance, but they didnt overstep the mark in my opinion.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby papalazeru on Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:13 am

It's been a lovely ride and I've enjoyed every minute of the show. Through the bad and good I've been there and came out the other side. Why oh why do they have to spoil it by turning it into one giant Cash cow.

Even worse, I am not looking forward to Caprica one iota. I don't need anymore back story than the one I'm given in BSG.

Leave it alone. What's next? The Burger King BSG burger: Extra layer of cheese and the burgers all falling to bits?

But admitedly, the Rorshach burger was kinda tasty when Watchmen came out.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby tapehead on Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:05 pm

TheBaxter wrote:
tapehead wrote:Perhaps it was his destiny to lay the foundation for an agrarian civilisation - with the farming.


perhaps. although that's not part of the finale. to even say it's hinted at would be exceedingly generous.


And here I was thinking that his last line (before the Ron Moore cameo 150,000 years in the future) was, while choking on tears, 'You know, I know about farming'

For me, the best of it, and the end of it, all centred upon Cap 6 and Baltar.

(although I've totally pwned you here, I want you to know, I hated the angels too).


edit: some interesting ruminations on the spiralling, circular narrative which returns to it's beginning are found here

also, Helo was the hero.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby LegoKenobi on Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:53 pm

tapehead wrote:edit: some interesting ruminations on the spiralling, circular narrative which returns to it's beginning are found here


wow, there's a lot of great stuff to think about there. thanks for posting that! also, helo is awesome. end of line.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby Fievel on Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:04 pm

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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby LegoKenobi on Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:01 pm

holy crap -- so, bear mccreary worked it out so that the numerical sequence kara punched into the computer ACTUALLY tied to "all along the watchtower" and also ACTUALLY meant something? whoa. O_o

seriously, it could have been any random string of numbers and i would still have bought it. but the fact that they all actually went to that level of thought really impresses me.

also, Ita dicimus omnes
(So Say We All)

is just awesome.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby Chairman Kaga on Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:31 pm

TheBaxter wrote:i was looking for a storyline for baltar that justified the constant attention and importance given to that character by the angelic forces or whatever they were, something that transcended the importance of other characters, like roslin and adama and starbuck, who didn't have that constant contact with god from the very beginning of the series to the very end. this finale didn't live up to that promise. i'm glad you found it a satisfying end for the character, but as far as i'm concerned, it fell way short of where it needed to go to make everything else that happened to baltar in the previous four seasons make sense.


What doesn't "make sense" about his arc? In simple terms he was pushed through the ringer to change him into the man that would say just the right thing to Cavill to keep him from killing Hera at that one moment. Along the way his interactions with those around him pushed the key events of the series.

I love that McCreary bit.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby Fievel on Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:50 pm

LegoKenobi wrote:holy crap -- so, bear mccreary worked it out so that the numerical sequence kara punched into the computer ACTUALLY tied to "all along the watchtower" and also ACTUALLY meant something? whoa. O_o

seriously, it could have been any random string of numbers and i would still have bought it. but the fact that they all actually went to that level of thought really impresses me.

also, Ita dicimus omnes
(So Say We All)

is just awesome.


The amount of detail that McCreary put into his work, that most would not notice at a passing glance, is beyond amazing.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby TheBaxter on Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:35 pm

tapehead wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:
tapehead wrote:Perhaps it was his destiny to lay the foundation for an agrarian civilisation - with the farming.


perhaps. although that's not part of the finale. to even say it's hinted at would be exceedingly generous.


And here I was thinking that his last line (before the Ron Moore cameo 150,000 years in the future) was, while choking on tears, 'You know, I know about farming'

For me, the best of it, and the end of it, all centred upon Cap 6 and Baltar.

(although I've totally pwned you here, I want you to know, I hated the angels too).


well, considering the first agrarian civilization began only about 10,000 years ago, i think it's safe to say whatever farming baltar did didn't serve as much of a foundation for anything. that 140,000 year gap is kind of a problem, wouldn't you say? who PWN3d who, again?

oh, and i didn't necessarily hate the angels. i just hated that they apparently gave all their attention to a character who had less to do with mankind's ultimate fate than racetrack's dead floppy hand.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby Chairman Kaga on Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:41 pm

TheBaxter wrote:oh, and i didn't necessarily hate the angels. i just hated that they apparently gave all their attention to a character who had less to do with mankind's ultimate fate than racetrack's dead floppy hand.

Oh it's sooooo not about the explosions. Glad you cleared that up before. :lol:
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby TheBaxter on Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:47 pm

Chairman Kaga wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:i was looking for a storyline for baltar that justified the constant attention and importance given to that character by the angelic forces or whatever they were, something that transcended the importance of other characters, like roslin and adama and starbuck, who didn't have that constant contact with god from the very beginning of the series to the very end. this finale didn't live up to that promise. i'm glad you found it a satisfying end for the character, but as far as i'm concerned, it fell way short of where it needed to go to make everything else that happened to baltar in the previous four seasons make sense.


What doesn't "make sense" about his arc? In simple terms he was pushed through the ringer to change him into the man that would say just the right thing to Cavill to keep him from killing Hera at that one moment. Along the way his interactions with those around him pushed the key events of the series.


what doesn't make sense is singling out baltar as if he's going to have a monumental role in the fate of humanity, calling him the author of humanity's future, and then not delivering on it. the final five offering to give the cylons resurrection technology did more to save hera from cavil than baltar's speech... but they didn't have messengers of god guiding them the whole series. tory killing callie and tyrol strangling her had more to do with getting them to earth2 than anything baltar ever said or did. roslin, adama, apollo, starbuck, all had a bigger role in the final outcome, and except for starbuck's few in-head leoben encounters, none of them had angels whispering in their ears (poor leoben-angel though, he doesn't even get to hang out with the baltar and six angels any more). obviously, when the series began they didn't plan exactly what baltar's six visions were going to turn out to be, but when they did finally decide she'd be a messenger of god, they needed to give his character an ending that justified all those years of being touched by an angel, and they didn't.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby TheBaxter on Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:48 pm

Chairman Kaga wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:oh, and i didn't necessarily hate the angels. i just hated that they apparently gave all their attention to a character who had less to do with mankind's ultimate fate than racetrack's dead floppy hand.

Oh it's sooooo not about the explosions. Glad you cleared that up before. :lol:


no, it's about story points, and the fact that racetrack's hand accidentally setting off nukes had more to do with the ultimate fate of humanity than anything baltar did or said the whole series.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby Chairman Kaga on Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:02 pm

TheBaxter wrote:
Chairman Kaga wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:i was looking for a storyline for baltar that justified the constant attention and importance given to that character by the angelic forces or whatever they were, something that transcended the importance of other characters, like roslin and adama and starbuck, who didn't have that constant contact with god from the very beginning of the series to the very end. this finale didn't live up to that promise. i'm glad you found it a satisfying end for the character, but as far as i'm concerned, it fell way short of where it needed to go to make everything else that happened to baltar in the previous four seasons make sense.


What doesn't "make sense" about his arc? In simple terms he was pushed through the ringer to change him into the man that would say just the right thing to Cavill to keep him from killing Hera at that one moment. Along the way his interactions with those around him pushed the key events of the series.


what doesn't make sense is singling out baltar as if he's going to have a monumental role in the fate of humanity, calling him the author of humanity's future, and then not delivering on it. the final five offering to give the cylons resurrection technology did more to save hera from cavil than baltar's speech... but they didn't have messengers of god guiding them the whole series. tory killing callie and tyrol strangling her had more to do with getting them to earth2 than anything baltar ever said or did. roslin, adama, apollo, starbuck, all had a bigger role in the final outcome,


Except that Baltar's actions throughout the series lead to the conception/birth of Hera, the cylon civil war, saving Hera from Cavil (notice Tigh didn't offer up resurrection until after Baltar's speech) thus continuing the human and cylon races and the next cycle.

It's obvious you don't like it but trying to play down the importance of the character and the effects his actions had on the entire story of continuing both races through Hera is not non-existant as you wish to pretend. Baltar was ultimately as important and integral as the "angels" stated.

I was joking before about the explosions but since you think dead Racetrack was more important it's obvious I was not far off.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby TheBaxter on Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:43 pm

Chairman Kaga wrote:Except that Baltar's actions throughout the series lead to the conception/birth of Hera, the cylon civil war, saving Hera from Cavil (notice Tigh didn't offer up resurrection until after Baltar's speech) thus continuing the human and cylon races and the next cycle.

It's obvious you don't like it but trying to play down the importance of the character and the effects his actions had on the entire story of continuing both races through Hera is not non-existant as you wish to pretend. Baltar was ultimately as important and integral as the "angels" stated.


i'm pretending? how exactly did baltar's actions bring about hera's conception? kinda hard to do since she was conceived on caprica, and baltar was far away on galactica at the time. unless you mean because helo gave up his seat for baltar? if that's the case, then he had as much to do with hera's conception as the cylon raider that shot down helo's raptor and wounded him. i guess that makes that cylon raider the author of humanity's future as well?

i'm also at a loss at how baltar had anything to do with the cylon civil war. again, baltar wasn't anywhere near they cylons when the civil war broke out. if there's some thread of baltar being involved, it's a long and tenuous one at best. certainly not as direct as boomer's or cavil's or six's role.

obviously baltar has been involved in a lot of major events on the show, because he's a major character. but was he a guiding force in bringing those events about? no. the only time was when he was president and on new caprica. the point i've been making is, the way his character was set up on this show, the importance given to him by the angels, who chose this ONE character to talk to throughout the entire run of the series, he had to have a fate on the show that somehow transcended what happens to the other characters. otherwise, how do you explain why god's messengers would spend so much time on him, while virtually ignoring the other important players? he was told repeatedly by angel-six that humanity's future was in his hands, that he would be the defining force in bringing about god's plan...and yet ultimately his role in that plan was no more important than any other characters. all that build-up led to nothing. it's not that he had NO role in the events, but his role was minor and no bigger than caprica six's, tigh's, tyrol's, starbuck's, apollo's, adama's, or roslin's... or even a random hand falling on a nuclear launch button. so all that angel-talk was just blowing smoke up his ass. that didn't do the build-up for his character justice.

to be honest, i always thought the show was going to end up with roslin and adama dead, and a reformed baltar of some kind leading humanity to a new future with the cylons. no, i'm not disappointed it didn't end exactly how i thought it would. i don't care that that's not the exact ending that we got, but something similar in the weight given to his character's outcome, so to that would have lived up to all the talking up his character got all those years, is what i was looking for. something more than just a speech or carrying a little girl 20 yards to the CIC. that's why the ending, for his character, was a let down.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby RogueScribner on Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:57 pm

Baltar was the first to see things from the Cylon POV and helped bring that empathy to the human fleet. He also gave people hope when they really had no right to have any, helping to quell their fear and unrest in the face of annihilation. He made for a lousy political leader, but a pretty good social one despite his doubts and self-loathing. Without the angels guiding him along the way, the Baltar who inadvertently helped to nuke mankind never would have had the spiritual fortitude to partake in such an endeavor.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby Tyrone_Shoelaces on Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:16 am

TheBaxter wrote:...he had to have a fate on the show that somehow transcended what happens to the other characters.

I get what you are saying and why you are saying it but I don't think its that easy.
TheBaxter wrote:...his role was minor and no bigger than caprica six's, tigh's, tyrol's, starbuck's, apollo's, adama's, or roslin's...

Those characters you mention had the character and fortitude to stand up and do the right thing at the right time. Baltar did not. He was a whiny, selfish, opportunistic, sniveling coward. Every single thing Head Six said and did to Baltar was to put him on the right path to be the person he needed to be at that moment in CIC, to make his role equal to that of everyone else. Cavil has a gun to a little girl's head, who is he more likely to listen to on the topic of destiny? The admiral? The president? The weak-willed guy who inadvertently put everything into motion and until that morning had a harem? Caprica took some convincing but not as much as we only saw Head Baltar a couple times. The attention paid to Baltar wasn't about making him something greater than he was but something he could be, something he had to be.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby DennisMM on Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:07 pm

Baltar is a hero. Perhaps not much of one, but a man who took the hero's journey from selfishness to nobility. He transcended his continuing foibles to find a new role in society. He's no leader, but he learned to put others before himself. He'll continue to be more than he was.

And he knows about farming, something he can teach others. I think he'll be a better teacher than anything else.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby papalazeru on Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:38 am

DennisMM wrote:Baltar is a hero. Perhaps not much of one, but a man who took the hero's journey from selfishness to nobility. He transcended his continuing foibles to find a new role in society. He's no leader, but he learned to put others before himself. He'll continue to be more than he was.

And he knows about farming, something he can teach others. I think he'll be a better teacher than anything else.



I like that. I'd like to believe that's what happens to Baltar. And also, it was Baltar casting of his techno shackles which he was so in favour of at the start of the series.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby The Vicar on Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:43 am

I was rolling the tape again and wondered if anyone else noticed this.
When Lee and Kara come out of the tent to say goodbye to Bill and Laura,
Kara shoots a quick look up at the sky, wearing a pained expression.
Like she was running out of time?


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An editing choice. Still cried like a total wuss.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby bill blake on Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:52 am

didn't adama have an angel episode?
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby Pacino86845 on Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:39 am

Yeah he saw his ex-wife (Lee's mom).
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby so sorry on Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:29 pm

How can any of you take a show this seriously when they had a scene that looked like this:

































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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby LegoKenobi on Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:17 pm

so sorry wrote:How can any of you take a show this seriously when they had a scene that looked like this:


...because that was hilarious? because the whole show wasn't like that?

































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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby papalazeru on Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:51 pm

so sorry wrote:Image



That's awesome and if you base the show on that pic alone, I'd agree. In it's defense, Baltars Eyebrows acted the shit out of this show.
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Re: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (Now w/ Happy Trails...)

Postby Lord Voldemoo on Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:24 pm

THANK THE GODS FOR BALTAR!!!!

I loved the show, but it was HEAVY. Baltar and Doc Cottle were our only suppliers of the occasional semi-mirthful moment.

Trust me, I know that pic looks goofy, but it was necessary, heh.
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