The "Buffy, Slayer of The Vamp-iers" Thread

The greatest TV in history is being made right now. The worst TV in history is being made right now.

Postby Leckomaniac on Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:10 pm

I didn't mean to get all whiney there...it was kind of late.

Like I said I never watched the show on TV...I now have all 7 seasons downloaded on my computer and am just now watching them.

Willow always kind of annoyed me...but I was fine with her until seasons 6. It was just painful to watch...but like Rogue said, now that I have started season 7...she has kind of redeemed herself. She is a lot less annoying.

Dawn is a useless character...and if she does that "GET OUT, GET OUT, GET OUT!" scream...i will lose it.

I just love Andrew...he is a total silver lining.
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Postby Vegeta on Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:12 pm

I agree, Dawn pretty much sucks... It might have been better if she had turned into the shiny key at the end of S5 afterall :twisted:
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Postby Iconoclastica on Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:19 pm

heh that's funny, because I find Andrew to be an unnecessary annoyance at many times . . . I always felt that he stole Xander's comic relief thunder, and it was a shame, considering how little of a role Xander played so often besides being Anya's personal chew toy.

As for Willow, I think you all know my opinion . . . I adore high school Willow . . . I agree that she was the heart of the show, not to mention the most consistent window into the Whedonisms that I've grown to love (most obviously the vocabulary, but also the mode of dialogue delivery, intelligence, and paradoxical sort of smooth awkwardness of character).

Once Tara came into the picture, as heartfelt and lovely as their relationship was, I just couldn't help but feel again and again that they were that staple "lesbian couple to retain male interest in the show," which I know isn't true . . . it just felt like it came at the time when that was the trend of the month, and they grew to piss me off quite often (though not all the time . . . there were definitely a good number of redeaming moments). And I agree, the addiction to magic felt a little too "after school special" for me . . . but everything that followed pretty much fell into place, especially Whedon's insight into the vast array of possible reactions to grief, which I always respect (particularly when the character actually stays dead).

So yes, an all around hearty two thumbs up for Willow on account of sheer niftiness :wink:
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Postby Neo Zeed on Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:39 pm

Yeah, high school Willow was awesome..The Oz relationship had best dialogue exchanges of all the couples IMO

Speaking of Dawn...What happened to her new buddies from the first ep Season 7? You know..the goth girl and the hispanic guy?
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Postby Vegeta on Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:43 pm

Neo Zeed wrote:Yeah, high school Willow was awesome..The Oz relationship had best dialogue exchanges of all the couples IMO

Speaking of Dawn...What happened to her new buddies from the first ep Season 7? You know..the goth girl and the hispanic guy?


Probably dead somewhere, people have a way of dying from neck rupture in Sunnydale all the time.
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Postby Leckomaniac on Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:48 pm

I never really found Xander's comic relief to be all that funny...Andrew was so much better at it IMO.
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Postby Vegeta on Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:53 pm

Nah, Xander was gold in S1-5
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Postby Iconoclastica on Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:01 pm

Yeah I really felt that Xander was a witty sort of humerous, while Andrew was "that annoying kid brother that you point and laugh at cause you pity him" sorta quasi-humerous . . . but to each his own :-)
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Postby Neo Zeed on Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:02 pm

Vegeta wrote:
Neo Zeed wrote:Yeah, high school Willow was awesome..The Oz relationship had best dialogue exchanges of all the couples IMO

Speaking of Dawn...What happened to her new buddies from the first ep Season 7? You know..the goth girl and the hispanic guy?


Probably dead somewhere, people have a way of dying from neck rupture in Sunnydale all the time.


It's funny....when they were introduced it seemed like they were gonna be the Scooby Juniors. Even Buffy was like "You guys should stick together" or something like that.. Maybe the writers thought it was stupid...but it it came from a Joss Whedon script!
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Postby Pudie on Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:31 pm

I think Xander is hillarious, but some of the worst episodes concern him.
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Postby cap on Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:15 pm

I think most of the Xanderesque episodes are pretty good.

You take them for what they are, not very serious, and lots of tounge and cheek humor.
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Postby Iconoclastica on Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:30 pm

cap wrote:I think most of the Xanderesque episodes are pretty good.

You take them for what they are, not very serious, and lots of tounge and cheek humor.


Agreed. I find them far more tolerable, even as a group, than I find that single Andrew-centric episode . . . it just made me . . . unbearably bitter towards uber uber geeks :?
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Postby Pudie on Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:32 pm

You wanna talk annoying, how about Johnathan? SUperstar had to be one of the most annoys episodes of any show I've ever seen.
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Postby Iconoclastica on Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:25 pm

Pudie wrote:You wanna talk annoying, how about Johnathan? SUperstar had to be one of the most annoys episodes of any show I've ever seen.


Yes I definitely agree with you that it was annoying . . . probably not one of the most annoying of any show I have ever seen (considering that just about every episode of American Idol trumps it in terms of annoyingness in almost every way, in my opinion), but aggravating nonetheless . . . any Xander-centric episode would have been far superior, in my opinion, as a substitute.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer wrote:Xander: Dammit. You know what? I'm sick of this. I'm tired of being the guy who eats insects and gets the funny syphilis. As of this moment, it's over. I'm through being everybody's butt-monkey.
Buffy: Check. No more butt-monkey.


^_^
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Postby Pudie on Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:28 pm

Iconoclastica wrote:
Pudie wrote:You wanna talk annoying, how about Johnathan? SUperstar had to be one of the most annoys episodes of any show I've ever seen.


Yes I definitely agree with you that it was annoying . . . probably not one of the most annoying of any show I have ever seen (considering that just about every episode of American Idol trumps it in terms of annoyingness in almost every way, in my opinion), but aggravating nonetheless . . . any Xander-centric episode would have been fine by me as a substitute.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer wrote:Xander: Dammit. You know what? I'm sick of this. I'm tired of being the guy who eats insects and gets the funny syphilis. As of this moment, it's over. I'm through being everybody's butt-monkey.
Buffy: Check. No more butt-monkey.


^_^


One of my favorite Xander moments was in Buffy -vs- Drcuala!

That now way to talk about the dark prince *pause* bator!
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Postby RogueScribner on Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:03 am

I'll take Xander over Andrew any day. Andrew was that annoying little twerp that would always try to but into your social life while Xander was the cool average joe with a witty line and big heart. No comparison, IMO.



I have a question for the peanut gallery:

I imagine most anyone posting in this thread would consider themselves at least slightly obsessive about Buffy the Vampire Slayer. So what's the most obsessive thing you've done in relation to the show?

Me? I figure it's gotta be when I sat down and adapted the songs from Little Shop of Horrors to be a new musical version of "Welcome to the Hellmouth." I mean, who does that? :P
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Postby Iconoclastica on Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:20 am

RogueScribner wrote:I have a question for the peanut gallery:

I imagine most anyone posting in this thread would consider themselves at least slightly obsessive about Buffy the Vampire Slayer. So what's the most obsessive thing you've done in relation to the show?

Me? I figure it's gotta be when I sat down and adapted the songs from Little Shop of Horrors to be a new musical version of "Welcome to the Hellmouth." I mean, who does that? :P


While I can't say that I have gone that far, I suppose I might have a couple of semi-obsessive tendencies with respect to the show :-p . . .

I used to go to school wearing the exact same outfit that either Buffy, Faith, or Willow had worn on the episode the night before. I worked out the choreography from a number of the fights just for shits and giggles when I was still actively into martial arts. I also quoted random excerpts from the show in history and english papers in my AP classes in high school a handful of times, as well as on one of the actual AP exams (which I got full college credit for :wink:) . . . do those count?
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Postby RogueScribner on Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:28 am

Muy bien!

When the show was still on the air, it seemed half my speech came from either Buffy or The Simpons. ;) I've also worked in some Buffy stuff into some papers I've written. You use enough big words, teachers will buy anything. :P
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Postby Chairman Kaga on Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:29 am

When bored I roll a plot around in my head for a new episode.....
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Postby RogueScribner on Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:58 am

I actually wrote a new episode!

Hee hee.
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Postby Leckomaniac on Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:52 am

Wow its amazing how different my opinions seem to be from the majority...but that's fine by me.

and the Andrew hatred astounds me...I find him to be my favorite character in S7...I wish he would have been around more...but again it appears I am in the extreme minority in this.

As far as Buffy/Angel nerdiness...well I am a singer/song-writer...and I hate thinking of titles for songs so I generally use favorite quotes of mine...and I have at least 4 that are quotes from either Buffy or Angel...and its funny how many people actually recognize the quotes...(which is cool)...but that is about it I suppose.
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Postby Chairman Kaga on Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:23 pm

I hate Andrew because he represents a continuing trend of characters named Andrew that are annoying and moronic....
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Postby The Vicar on Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:12 pm

I really disliked the whole "nerds of doom" thing.
And didn't Andrew murder one of his co-nerds of doom?
That sort of got passed off as nothing.
Murder.
Unanswered for.

It ( the nerds of doom) seemed to trivilize Buffy's existance, haveing to butt skulls with Archie & Jughead.

Near the end I wasn't too keen on Xander either...he never paid for the lie ( although it was exposed...but nothing ever came of it) of what Willow's words of encouragement were for Buffy when she was going off to kill Angel.
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Postby Chairman Kaga on Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:31 pm

The Vicar wrote:That sort of got passed off as nothing.
Murder.
Unanswered for.

Anya, Spike, Willow, Giles all murdered people. Xander is the only scooby I can think of with a clean record.
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Postby The Vicar on Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:45 pm

That's quite a varied group, there.

The murder we all saw Giles commit, Glory in helpless man=form, could easily be classified as justifiable homicide.

Anya was a stinking demon...but as a human, other than bad guys, whom did she kill?

Willow was avenging the murder of her lover...so would I.

Spike was a killer without a conscious.

Andrew was a regular bloke who murdered his friend as part of a plot to destroy the world.

Or am I splitting hairs?

Strange the Xander was the only person who didn't end up killing anyone, apart from vamps or demons.
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Postby Chairman Kaga on Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:51 pm

Whatever the reasons the above all killed humans after being "good"...helpless humans at that.

(Anya was after she went back to being a demon and killed all those frat boys, Spike when turning people after having a soul before that he was just a vamp doing his thing. Giles is perhaps the worst this of course doesn't count what he may have done in his "Ripper" past)
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Postby The Vicar on Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:03 pm

Chairman Kaga wrote:Whatever the reasons the above all killed humans after being "good"...helpless humans at that.

(Anya was after she went back to being a demon and killed all those frat boys, Spike when turning people after having a soul before that he was just a vamp doing his thing. Giles is perhaps the worst this of course doesn't count what he may have done in his "Ripper" past)


Hah...I had forgtten the frat boys.
Although one could make a case for offing them on general principle. :shock:

Would really like to have seen more of Giles "Ripper" days.
I guessing there was one than one mess back there.

Ah well...death in the Buffyverse was sometimes capricous, sudden & uncalled for. Too bad Kennedy made it out alive....
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Postby Chairman Kaga on Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:06 pm

Kennedy is/was annoying.....Frankly I didn't like Tara either or the whole lesbian thing just becuase it introduced Tara and Kennedy...
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Postby The Vicar on Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:15 pm

Tara didn't bother me quite as much, although I could have done without the entire lesbian subplot, because Willow & her had gone through a lot together & you could make a case for Tara being loveable.
Kennedy seemed like a plot contrivence out of left field...why was Willow hooking up with this nasty biatch who poops on her friend Buffy? Hungry hormones needing to get fed?
Not good enough.
If the Buffyverse ever resurfaces in some form, I am really praying to Crom that Kennedy is NOT in it.

Or Willow is getting busy with Oz again...one of my favorite Buffy characters.
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Postby cc2kbob on Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:12 pm

The Vicar wrote:Tara didn't bother me quite as much, although I could have done without the entire lesbian subplot, because Willow & her had gone through a lot together & you could make a case for Tara being loveable.
Kennedy seemed like a plot contrivence out of left field...why was Willow hooking up with this nasty biatch who poops on her friend Buffy? Hungry hormones needing to get fed?
Not good enough.
If the Buffyverse ever resurfaces in some form, I am really praying to Crom that Kennedy is NOT in it.

Or Willow is getting busy with Oz again...one of my favorite Buffy characters.

Ha -- Kennedy. I had forgotten about that.

I guess my main beef with season six wasn't that it was depressing -- hell, when ISN'T a Joss Whedon show a little bit depressing? -- but how it was structured. I loved Willow turning evil, and even though I missed A.S. Head the whole season, his reappearance was deeply satisfying.

But ...

I wish that Willow had been the bad guy for more of the season. Wouldn't that have been cool? In the same way that Angel was the main, temporary bad guy for all of season two, Willow coulda been the bad guy for season six.

Just some thoughts.
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Postby cap on Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:24 pm

Willow being bad could only have worked on a short term basis. She was too popular to keep bad.

The reason she turned was because of a traumatic experience and the pure rage. Once Zander provided clarity, she was going to back down.

Although the thought of her being the "big bad" for a whole year was intriquing. It would never have gotten past the history of her character.

Season 6 was somewhat disjointed. So having that arc play out the way it did was probably the best way to do it, with out destroying the Willow character.
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Postby cc2kbob on Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:33 pm

cap wrote:Willow being bad could only have worked on a short term basis. She was too popular to keep bad.

The reason she turned was because of a traumatic experience and the pure rage. Once Zander provided clarity, she was going to back down.

Although the thought of her being the "big bad" for a whole year was intriquing. It would never have gotten past the history of her character.

Season 6 was somewhat disjointed. So having that arc play out the way it did was probably the best way to do it, with out destroying the Willow character.


I hear you -- but Whedon has never been one to shy away from an unpopular choice because it's dramatically effective. Wash in Serenity springs to mind. Heck, even Angel was pretty popular, and they spent the whole dang season with him as a bad guy.

As it stands, I like the way they killed Tara (abrubtly), and I loved Willow going off the deep end, but the -- what? -- two, three episode rush to an apocalypse-of-the-week felt way too rushed. I would have liked to have spent more time with, say, Buffy and Xander before Xander made his world-saving plea to Willow.

But we're left with what's there, and it's still pretty great -- better than a lot of season 7 for me. Thoughts on season 7?
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Postby Vegeta on Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:40 pm

S7 is a tale of two parts for me. The first 6 or so episodes are pretty good (Buffy vs. Anya and Conversations with Dead People), but the middle is a big mess. It doesn't pick up again til Lies my Parents told Me, and I couldn't stand how the writers treated Giles at the end. His character didn't deserve to be so "thrown under the bus" as the show reached it's climax. Then they tried to fix it real quick in one conversotion. For shame Mutant Enemy, for shame.
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Postby cc2kbob on Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:45 pm

Vegeta wrote:S7 is a tale of two parts for me. The first 6 or so episodes are pretty good (Buffy vs. Anya and Conversations with Dead People), but the middle is a big mess. It doesn't pick up again til Lies my Parents told Me, and I couldn't stand how the writers treated Giles at the end. His character didn't deserve to be so "thrown under the bus" as the show reached it's climax. Then they tried to fix it real quick in one conversotion. For shame Mutant Enemy, for shame.


I couldn't agree more unless I were, like, the Galactus of Agreeing. Whatever that would entail. :D

Yeah, in season 7, they went for this grand Lord of the Rings kinda vibe, and it just screwed everything up. Angel hit it right on the head by committing to the idea that the fight against evil never ends.

OK, let me offer this: For me, by the finale of season 4, Angel -- pound-for-pound -- is better than Buffy. Tougher, more thematically resonant, and generally more asskick-y. Plus they turned WW Price into Frank Castle.

Thoughts???
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Postby Vegeta on Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:55 pm

cc2kbob wrote:
Vegeta wrote:S7 is a tale of two parts for me. The first 6 or so episodes are pretty good (Buffy vs. Anya and Conversations with Dead People), but the middle is a big mess. It doesn't pick up again til Lies my Parents told Me, and I couldn't stand how the writers treated Giles at the end. His character didn't deserve to be so "thrown under the bus" as the show reached it's climax. Then they tried to fix it real quick in one conversotion. For shame Mutant Enemy, for shame.


I couldn't agree more unless I were, like, the Galactus of Agreeing. Whatever that would entail. :D

Yeah, in season 7, they went for this grand Lord of the Rings kinda vibe, and it just screwed everything up. Angel hit it right on the head by committing to the idea that the fight against evil never ends.

OK, let me offer this: For me, by the finale of season 4, Angel -- pound-for-pound -- is better than Buffy. Tougher, more thematically resonant, and generally more asskick-y. Plus they turned WW Price into Frank Castle.

Thoughts???


You are correct if you mean Angel Season 5 finale? If so, call me Galactus of Agreeing!
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Postby Neo Zeed on Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:03 pm

Haven't watched the show in a while but....how come the (all powerful?) Watchers Council didn't pay Buffy a salary instead of having her getting a job at some burger joint?
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Postby cap on Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:24 pm

Neo Zeed wrote:Haven't watched the show in a while but....how come the (all powerful?) Watchers Council didn't pay Buffy a salary instead of having her getting a job at some burger joint?


Cause there cheap..... among other reasons. :wink:
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Postby cc2kbob on Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:25 pm

Nope -- I'm talking the season 4 finale. I place Angel season 5 above Buffy in the Whedon pantheon of awesomeness. :)

And as for the watchers council -- agreed. What the hell?

Furthermore, who wants to see an Angel/Buffy reteam movie with the full Slayer Corps in full action?
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Postby cap on Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:30 pm

cc2kbob wrote:Furthermore, who wants to see an Angel/Buffy reteam movie with the full Slayer Corps in full action?


There was an episode in Season 5 (Angel) where it was made pretty clear that there is a split between Buffy and Angel/Spike. I forget the name of the episode. It is the one with crazy slayer who cuts Spikes hands off.

So I am pretty sure it wouldn't happen, at least not now.
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Postby cc2kbob on Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:34 pm

cap wrote:
cc2kbob wrote:Furthermore, who wants to see an Angel/Buffy reteam movie with the full Slayer Corps in full action?


There was an episode in Season 5 (Angel) where it was made pretty clear that there is a split between Buffy and Angel/Spike. I forget the name of the episode. It is the one with crazy slayer who cuts Spikes hands off.

So I am pretty sure it wouldn't happen, at least not now.


Indeed -- to say nothing of the fact that James Marsters is the only majot cast member who still seems interested in doing one. :(

Nah, my roommate had an idea for a Buffy/Angel movie that would feature the usual antagonistic, autobots-vs-decepticons team-up against a larger foe. :) :) :)
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Postby cap on Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:35 pm

cc2kbob wrote:
cap wrote:
cc2kbob wrote:Furthermore, who wants to see an Angel/Buffy reteam movie with the full Slayer Corps in full action?


There was an episode in Season 5 (Angel) where it was made pretty clear that there is a split between Buffy and Angel/Spike. I forget the name of the episode. It is the one with crazy slayer who cuts Spikes hands off.

So I am pretty sure it wouldn't happen, at least not now.


Indeed -- to say nothing of the fact that James Marsters is the only majot cast member who still seems interested in doing one. :(

Nah, my roommate had an idea for a Buffy/Angel movie that would feature the usual antagonistic, autobots-vs-decepticons team-up against a larger foe. :) :) :)


Don't get me wrong though, I think, if done right, it would be real sweet!!!!!
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Postby Neo Zeed on Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:51 pm

cc2kbob wrote:Nope -- I'm talking the season 4 finale. I place Angel season 5 above Buffy in the Whedon pantheon of awesomeness. :)

And as for the watchers council -- agreed. What the hell?

Furthermore, who wants to see an Angel/Buffy reteam movie with the full Slayer Corps in full action?


That would be so awesome I'd crap my pants! Although by the the Slayer Corps..do you mean those teen girls from Season 7? I wouldn't miss them too much...Aren't they making Aquamarine 2 or something like that. Maybe they can get a gig over there?
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Postby cc2kbob on Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:02 pm

Neo Zeed wrote:
cc2kbob wrote:Nope -- I'm talking the season 4 finale. I place Angel season 5 above Buffy in the Whedon pantheon of awesomeness. :)

And as for the watchers council -- agreed. What the hell?

Furthermore, who wants to see an Angel/Buffy reteam movie with the full Slayer Corps in full action?


That would be so awesome I'd crap my pants! Although by the the Slayer Corps..do you mean those teen girls from Season 7? I wouldn't miss them to much...Aren't they making Aquamarine 2 or something like that. Maybe they can get a gig over there?


Well, yes. I'm thinking of the Slayer corps, but here's what I dig about the girls from season 7:

OK, so I inhaled Buffy on DVD right? Yeah, yeah -- I know I'm not a true fan, but I'm making up for it with Lost. My roommate was more of a hard-core fan, having seen the final three seasons in its actual run.

So during the whole time I'm watching the show, I'm wondering why there aren't more Slayers and watchers, right? One of my axioms of existence is:

Stuff is awesomer when it's more like the Green Lantern Corps.

And I liked the idea of the slayers being a worldwide conglomerate of protection, with reps in every region. Hell, seeing Wesley finally get to act as a defacto watcher to Faith in Angel was revelatory.

So, yes -- the Slayer Corps. Remember my axiom of existence!!!
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Postby Neo Zeed on Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:28 pm

cc2kbob wrote:
Neo Zeed wrote:
cc2kbob wrote:Nope -- I'm talking the season 4 finale. I place Angel season 5 above Buffy in the Whedon pantheon of awesomeness. :)

And as for the watchers council -- agreed. What the hell?

Furthermore, who wants to see an Angel/Buffy reteam movie with the full Slayer Corps in full action?


That would be so awesome I'd crap my pants! Although by the the Slayer Corps..do you mean those teen girls from Season 7? I wouldn't miss them to much...Aren't they making Aquamarine 2 or something like that. Maybe they can get a gig over there?


Well, yes. I'm thinking of the Slayer corps, but here's what I dig about the girls from season 7:

OK, so I inhaled Buffy on DVD right? Yeah, yeah -- I know I'm not a true fan, but I'm making up for it with Lost. My roommate was more of a hard-core fan, having seen the final three seasons in its actual run.

So during the whole time I'm watching the show, I'm wondering why there aren't more Slayers and watchers, right? One of my axioms of existence is:

Stuff is awesomer when it's more like the Green Lantern Corps.

And I liked the idea of the slayers being a worldwide conglomerate of protection, with reps in every region. Hell, seeing Wesley finally get to act as a defacto watcher to Faith in Angel was revelatory.

So, yes -- the Slayer Corps. Remember my axiom of existence!!!


You got a point..I don't know how much time they'd have on screen with a huge cast mashup of Buffy/Angel characters, although things are fun GL style...

As long as Kennedy disappears from existence it might be decent. Also if they fight together in a group maybe they should wear all black...kinda like a uniform, so they won't be that distracting. Because in the Angel ep. in season 5, the Slayer Corp looked like a Blue Navy commercial about to pounce on the Angel crew. It looked kinda funny to me...
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Postby Chairman Kaga on Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:34 pm

That brings up the question.....Would the SLayer core show up just in the nick of time to help out Angel and crew and the series Finale...
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Postby cc2kbob on Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:57 pm

Chairman Kaga wrote:That brings up the question.....Would the SLayer core show up just in the nick of time to help out Angel and crew and the series Finale...


That may or may not have been one of the images from the opening sequence of my friend's movie idea. ;)
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Postby Chairman Kaga on Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:07 pm

I smell a lawsuit.
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Postby cc2kbob on Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:13 pm

Chairman Kaga wrote:I smell a lawsuit.


If by "lawsuit" you mean "nonstop Buffy-a-thon," then I agree. :D
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Postby RogueScribner on Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:32 am

The Vicar wrote:Near the end I wasn't too keen on Xander either...he never paid for the lie ( although it was exposed...but nothing ever came of it) of what Willow's words of encouragement were for Buffy when she was going off to kill Angel.


What would you want to happen? I mean, realistically, what would happen? After all these years? It's water under the bridge. The only way it wouldn't be is if, because of Xander's lie, Buffy killed Angel. But she didn't. She killed him for a much bigger reason than Xander's petty jealously.

And if Xander didn't catch crap for summoning Sweet in "Once More With Feeling" (you know, the ep where people actually died because of his actions), then he's certainly not going catch it for telling a little lie 4 years prior.

cap wrote:Willow being bad could only have worked on a short term basis. She was too popular to keep bad.

The reason she turned was because of a traumatic experience and the pure rage. Once Zander provided clarity, she was going to back down.

Although the thought of her being the "big bad" for a whole year was intriquing. It would never have gotten past the history of her character.

Season 6 was somewhat disjointed. So having that arc play out the way it did was probably the best way to do it, with out destroying the Willow character.


See, I actually had great anticipation for S6 when Herc let slip that Willow would be going dark. When you look back at Willow's history, it was building to a point where Willow would start to lose focus of the big picture, and consequently, end up opposing Buffy. Bad guys don't often see themselves as bad people; they simply think they are in the right for whatever they are doing and everyone else just doesn't understand.

I always maintained that Willow's misuse of magic didn't derive from a physical substance addiction, but rather a need for her to prove her self-worth. Over the course of the series she used magic to help save the day, but she also used it for purely selfish and often misguided reasons (let me count the ways*). Her moral compass was slowly being chipped away because the stronger she became the less the consequences of her actions seemed to matter. That blow up between Giles and Willow in "Flooded" succinctly set up an arc in S6 that just never happened. He wasn't yelling at her because she got high or drank too much. He yelled at her because she was messing with things she couldn't handle. She wasn't developed enough to handle the power and responsibility of the magic she was delving into. That's not exactly an anti-drug stance, you know?

Willow should have grown corrupt with power. Tara should have died as a consequence, but Willow wouldn't have been able to face the truth and instead blame Buffy. Friend vs. Friend. Witch vs. Slayer. With real emotional and physical stakes on the line. That's where I thought S6 was headed and when I didn't get that, I was pissed. Those three episodes at the end where Willow is all quippy and wearing black wasn't what I was looking for. It was a stunt and nothing more.

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Postby cc2kbob on Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:47 pm

See, I actually had great anticipation for S6 when Herc let slip that Willow would be going dark. When you look back at Willow's history, it was building to a point where Willow would start to lose focus of the big picture, and consequently, end up opposing Buffy. Bad guys don't often see themselves as bad people; they simply think they are in the right for whatever they are doing and everyone else just doesn't understand.

I always maintained that Willow's misuse of magic didn't derive from a physical substance addiction, but rather a need for her to prove her self-worth. Over the course of the series she used magic to help save the day, but she also used it for purely selfish and often misguided reasons (let me count the ways*). Her moral compass was slowly being chipped away because the stronger she became the less the consequences of her actions seemed to matter. That blow up between Giles and Willow in "Flooded" succinctly set up an arc in S6 that just never happened. He wasn't yelling at her because she got high or drank too much. He yelled at her because she was messing with things she couldn't handle. She wasn't developed enough to handle the power and responsibility of the magic she was delving into. That's not exactly an anti-drug stance, you know?

Willow should have grown corrupt with power. Tara should have died as a consequence, but Willow wouldn't have been able to face the truth and instead blame Buffy. Friend vs. Friend. Witch vs. Slayer. With real emotional and physical stakes on the line. That's where I thought S6 was headed and when I didn't get that, I was pissed. Those three episodes at the end where Willow is all quippy and wearing black wasn't what I was looking for. It was a stunt and nothing more.


Awesome. Couln'ta said it any better myself.

And it makes me wonder: Whedon makes so few missteps in his shows -- what happened here? Making Willow a bad guy for the season feels like a signature Whedon move.

Maybe the move to a different network threw everyone off.
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