TV Smackdown (HBO SHOW vs. HBO SHOW!!)

The greatest TV in history is being made right now. The worst TV in history is being made right now.

Poll #2: Which of the following acclaimed HBO series is the absolute best?

Arli$$
0
No votes
Deadwood
8
24%
Carnivale
1
3%
Entourage
2
6%
Oz
0
No votes
Rome
1
3%
Sex and the City
3
9%
Six Feet Under
2
6%
The Sopranos
6
18%
The Wire
10
30%
 
Total votes : 33

TV Smackdown (HBO SHOW vs. HBO SHOW!!)

Postby MasterWhedon on Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:41 pm

THIS THREAD HAS BEEN SPLIT OUT OF THE HEROES THREAD, AND IS INTENDED FOR YOU TO PIT ONE SHOW AGAINST ANOTHER IN A BATTLE FOR COAXIAL SUPREMACY!!

so sorry wrote:
DinoDeLaurentiis wrote:Bah... just a what a we need, eh? A the goddamn mentor character for a the wimpy girly man guy.

I hate a this a show onna many levels...

... anna yet... I keep onna watching.


Dino, that is exactly how I feel... maybe its the love for all things geek (in this case comic-book-hero powers) that compells us to keep watching even thought this show lacks the kind of depth and intelligence its tries to portray.

and yet i keep tuning in...

I'm with you both. I know Chilli got pissed when I said this before, but Heroes is the perfect example of a great idea executed to the heighth of mediocrity. And people embrace it because...

*cues Aaron Sorkin*

"People want leadership, Mr. President, and in the absence of genuine leadership, they'll listen to anyone who steps up to the microphone. They want leadership. They're so thirsty for it they'll crawl through the desert toward a mirage, and when they discover there's no water, they'll drink the sand." -- Lewis Rothschild, The American President

There's a great superhero show waiting to be made. Until then, there's a pretty-good-to-occasionally-slightly-better-than-a verage one to fill the void.
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Postby Peven on Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:30 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:
so sorry wrote:
DinoDeLaurentiis wrote:Bah... just a what a we need, eh? A the goddamn mentor character for a the wimpy girly man guy.

I hate a this a show onna many levels...

... anna yet... I keep onna watching.


Dino, that is exactly how I feel... maybe its the love for all things geek (in this case comic-book-hero powers) that compells us to keep watching even thought this show lacks the kind of depth and intelligence its tries to portray.

and yet i keep tuning in...

I'm with you both. I know Chilli got pissed when I said this before, but Heroes is the perfect example of a great idea executed to the heighth of mediocrity. And people embrace it because...

*cues Aaron Sorkin*

"People want leadership, Mr. President, and in the absence of genuine leadership, they'll listen to anyone who steps up to the microphone. They want leadership. They're so thirsty for it they'll crawl through the desert toward a mirage, and when they discover there's no water, they'll drink the sand." -- Lewis Rothschild, The American President

There's a great superhero show waiting to be made. Until then, there's a pretty-good-to-occasionally-slightly-better-than-a verage one to fill the void.


kind of like how Buffy was a pretty-good-to-occasionally-slightly-better-than-a verage monster show, right?
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Postby Lord Voldemoo on Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:35 pm

Peven wrote:
kind of like how Buffy was a pretty-good-to-occasionally-slightly-better-than-a verage monster show, right?


MW, set optic blast to "Destroy".
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Postby MasterWhedon on Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:45 pm

Lord Voldemoo wrote:
Peven wrote:
kind of like how Buffy was a pretty-good-to-occasionally-slightly-better-than-a verage monster show, right?


MW, set optic blast to "Destroy".

See, but I don't even need to bother. Peven is determined to hate on Buffy until the cows come home (*cues Voldemoo to go home*) and there's no changing his mind. Fine, I've accepted that. I'll just take comfort in the fact that many, many more people would side with me than with him on this one and call it a day.
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Postby Peven on Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:47 pm

Lord Voldemoo wrote:
Peven wrote:
kind of like how Buffy was a pretty-good-to-occasionally-slightly-better-than-a verage monster show, right?


MW, set optic blast to "Destroy".


calm your teats, Moo. i' am just pointing out that if one is to judge Heroes so harshly then perhaps an equally critical eye should be applied across the board. lets face it, Buffy might have been fun, but neither the writing, the acting, the sets or fx were anything special. it was a vampire-hunting teeny-bopper soap-opera. i'd say Heroes's quality matches up pretty well against it. :P :wink:
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Postby Bob Samonkey on Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:05 pm

I would put Buffy along the same lines as Smallville teeny-bopper soap-opera-wise. They always seemed similar to me.

On another note. JUST ENJOY WHAT YOU CAN OR BE PREPARED TO WATCH LIFE ACCORDING TO JIM!!!
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Postby MasterWhedon on Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:11 pm

Bob Poopflingius Maximus wrote:I would put Buffy along the same lines as Smallville teeny-bopper soap-opera-wise. They always seemed similar to me.

Similar, yes, but Buffy always had greater ambitions than Smallville, and it consistently executed its ideas MUCH better. Heroes and Smallville are on the same level, IMO.
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Postby Fawst on Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:24 pm

Whoa, whoa whoa... back up. Take the crack pipe out of your mouth, and have a seat.

Heroes is in NO way even CLOSE to Smallville. Buffy and Smallville were far more similar. Practically a monster of the week with some overlapping story elements once in a while. Heroes is completely different in structure, quality and execution.

That is in no way a knock against Buffy. But if you were to pull three random episodes, one from each show, and compare them, you'd find that "one of these shows is not like the others." That would be Heroes.

Shit, Charmed has more in common with Buffy and Smallville than Heroes...
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Postby so sorry on Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:27 pm

Uh oh, this could get ugly... and completely off topic, so don't go there!
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Postby Bob Samonkey on Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:28 pm

GO THERE!! GO THERE!!!
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Postby MasterWhedon on Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:29 pm

Fawst wrote:Whoa, whoa whoa... back up. Take the crack pipe out of your mouth, and have a seat.

Heroes is in NO way even CLOSE to Smallville. Buffy and Smallville were far more similar. Practically a monster of the week with some overlapping story elements once in a while. Heroes is completely different in structure, quality and execution.

That is in no way a knock against Buffy. But if you were to pull three random episodes, one from each show, and compare them, you'd find that "one of these shows is not like the others." That would be Heroes.

Shit, Charmed has more in common with Buffy and Smallville than Heroes...

No, no, sorry, you're taking my comparison too literally. I just mean Smallville and Heroes are on par quality-wise. I think both are consistently B-grade television with moments of A-level greatness. I think both could be ten times the show they are, and it upsets me to see them championed when I feel there's so much more that could be done with them.

This is a personal assesment of what could be versus what is, so I understand if people object to the point.
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Postby Peven on Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:31 pm

<holding self back from going into incredulous retort regarding the "Buffy executed ideas better" comment>




<can't.......hold.............it...........in.... ...........>






like the "idea" that the audience would like seeing a million Buffy vs vampire/demon(wearing cheap, cheesy latex costumes) fights go down with more predictability than the sun coming up tomorrow?











sorry, couldn't help it, just too much to contain. if i hadn't let that little bit slip my head would have exploded.
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Postby Bob Samonkey on Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:32 pm

Woo hoo!! The war has begun, everyone take sides!!!
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Postby Peven on Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:37 pm

Bob Poopflingius Maximus wrote:Woo hoo!! The war has begun, everyone take sides!!!


Bob "switzerland" Poopflingius Maximus, will be trying to make a profit off the conflict too, i'm sure. :P
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Postby Lord Voldemoo on Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:45 pm

I'm done with this thread, i'm just going to end up getting pissed off... :wink:
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Postby MasterWhedon on Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:46 pm

Peven, this is the lamest debate in the history of debates.

All I suggest is there's a reason Buffy is being taught in cultural and gender studies classes, and Heroes and Smallville never will be. One simply aspires to be more--to say more--than the other. And whether or not you think it's effective or if you care for the way it used its genre(s), you should be able to at least concede that point. But I don't expect that to happen because of the 8,000 debates I've seen you get into, I've seen you concede, oh, maybe four times. Maybe.
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Postby Peven on Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:47 pm

Lord Voldemoo wrote:I'm done with this thread, i'm just going to end up getting pissed off... :wink:


translated-- "i'm taking my ball and going home" :P :wink:














of course, when Kirk says that it has a WHOLE different connotation. :shock:
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Postby Lord Voldemoo on Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:58 pm

Peven wrote:
Lord Voldemoo wrote:I'm done with this thread, i'm just going to end up getting pissed off... :wink:


translated-- "i'm taking my ball and going home" :P :wink::


Well, when I see Smallville compared to Buffy in terms of quality I am concerned that the debate may not be overly intelligent.

Smallville = writing abortion, weak acting (aside from Rosenbaum who I actually really like), derivative ideas, bad, bad show.

Buffy = some of best writing seen in a genre show in years. Able (if not always amazing) acting, originality, a willingness to take risks (Once More With Feeling, Hush, The Body, the attempted rape of Buffy, Graduation Day, etc). Dealing with issues like school shootings, addiction, sexuality, death and loss.

When was the last time Smallville took a risk in anything it did? When has it ever been original?

Buffy aspired to be, and was, much more than a monster of the week. Get off the latex constume crap too, NBC is pouring 10x the money into Heroes than Joss got during the zenith of Buffy's popularity. Of course Heroes looks better.

I like Heroes, I don't feel that it is nearly as mediocre as some have stated. I think it has a great deal of potential, but has not yet hit its stride.
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Postby Peven on Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:10 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:Peven, this is the lamest debate in the history of debates.

All I suggest is there's a reason Buffy is being taught in cultural and gender studies classes, and Heroes and Smallville never will be. One simply aspires to be more--to say more--than the other. And whether or not you think it's effective or if you care for the way it used its genre(s), you should be able to at least concede that point. But I don't expect that to happen because of the 8,000 debates I've seen you get into, I've seen you concede, oh, maybe four times. Maybe.


you need to read more of my debates then. then again, can you say that you concede at a higher rate than i? i doubt it. anyway, just because some college course out there has Buffy's name on it doesn't weigh in on the quality of the show, just that it was very popular in our modern culture, it was, for better or worse, something of a cultural phenomenon among teenagers and young 20-somethings. last time i looked though, popularity isn't an automatic translation into quality, especially among that age demographic.

Heroes isn't a perfect show, i have my own critiques on things they could do better, but it has more than enough to keep bringing me, many others, back each week. imo it is on an entirely different level than Buffy; its got better production value, better acting, better writing, and isn't just geared at the 12-25 yr old demographic. from week to week there is a real element of surprise in how things will unfold, characters have an arc, and they don't just repeat the same formula again and again. but hey, thats just me, i have my tastes, others have theirs. that is why there are 200+ channels on tv.
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Postby Peven on Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:12 pm

Peven wrote:
MasterWhedon wrote:Peven, this is the lamest debate in the history of debates.

All I suggest is there's a reason Buffy is being taught in cultural and gender studies classes, and Heroes and Smallville never will be. One simply aspires to be more--to say more--than the other. And whether or not you think it's effective or if you care for the way it used its genre(s), you should be able to at least concede that point. But I don't expect that to happen because of the 8,000 debates I've seen you get into, I've seen you concede, oh, maybe four times. Maybe.


you need to read more of my debates then. then again, can you say that you concede at a higher rate than i? i doubt it. anyway, just because some college course out there has Buffy's name on it doesn't weigh in on the quality of the show, just that it was very popular in our modern culture, it was, for better or worse, something of a cultural phenomenon among teenagers and young 20-somethings. last time i looked though, popularity isn't an automatic translation into quality, especially among that age demographic.

Heroes isn't a perfect show, i have my own critiques on things they could do better, but it has more than enough to keep bringing me, many others, back each week. imo it is on an entirely different level than Buffy; its got better production value, better acting, better writing, and isn't just geared at the 12-25 yr old demographic. from week to week there is a real element of surprise in how things will unfold, characters have an arc, and they don't just repeat the same formula again and again. but hey, thats just me, i have my tastes, others have theirs. that is why there are 200+ channels on tv.


interesting section from that page you linked to, "The response to this scholary attention has had its critics. The English lecturer, Mary Graber is unimpressed with the growing presence of Buffy in Universities, she wrote in an article "most parents who send their children off to college have no idea of what is being taught in the humanities classes: pornography appreciation, analyses of the clothing of transvestites, Native American scalp dances, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer."[7] Jes Battis who authored Blood Relations in Buffy and Angel admits that study of the Buffyverse "invokes an uneasy combination of enthusiasm and ire", and meets "a certain amount of disdain from within the halls of the academy"[8]"
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Postby MasterWhedon on Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:12 pm

Just... not... worth... it...


*walks away*
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Postby Peven on Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:16 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:Just... not... worth... it...


*walks away*


does that mean you are conceding? :P :lol:
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Postby MasterWhedon on Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:19 pm

*doesn't hear Peven as he's already walked away and left this incredibly silly argument behind*














*trips*
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Postby Peven on Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:24 pm

see, not conceding when you don't concede is a virtue, but when i don't concede its a character flaw. double-standard holding nazi facist mod.







keep running.










chicken. :P :lol:


and now back to the thread.....






13 days and counting people. anyone else watch the first season finale last night? catch anything you didn't the first time? any bets on what is going to happen first episode back?
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Postby MasterWhedon on Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:38 pm

Peven wrote:see, not conceding when you don't concede is a virtue, but when i don't concede its a character flaw. double-standard holding nazi facist mod.

Don't take this in any way as a sign that I'm getting back into this debate, but I think you'll find if you look back through my most fervent debates on here that they are FILLED with concessions on my part. Maybe not always the big points, but definitely the small ones. I can't tell you how often I write "you've got a point with that, but..." or "I see what you're saying now..." or "I understand what you mean and actually agree with you to a great extent..." It takes a lot to sway me on the BIG stuff, but I'm actually very open to differing opinions, and I think you'd be hard-pressed to prove otherwise.

I once had a debate with a fellow Zoner that got rather personal, in which he made some pretty serious strikes against my character. And you know what I said first and foremost in my response? "The things you're saying about me are things I've heard in the past, and are all things I'm trying to work on."

On this point, I refuse to accept that I'm a hypocrite. On others, sure, but not this one.
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Postby Fawst on Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:42 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:
Fawst wrote:Whoa, whoa whoa... back up. Take the crack pipe out of your mouth, and have a seat.

Heroes is in NO way even CLOSE to Smallville. Buffy and Smallville were far more similar. Practically a monster of the week with some overlapping story elements once in a while. Heroes is completely different in structure, quality and execution.

That is in no way a knock against Buffy. But if you were to pull three random episodes, one from each show, and compare them, you'd find that "one of these shows is not like the others." That would be Heroes.

Shit, Charmed has more in common with Buffy and Smallville than Heroes...

No, no, sorry, you're taking my comparison too literally. I just mean Smallville and Heroes are on par quality-wise. I think both are consistently B-grade television with moments of A-level greatness.


Ok, I take back the crack pipe comment. But I still stand on the rest. Difference of opinion, but Heroes is far above and beyond Smallville. I fell for one of the classic blunders: I went in against a Whedonite when Buffy's honor was on the line :(

In all honesty, I put them in this order:

Heroes
Buffy
Charmed
Smallville

Buffy was entertaining, and had some AMAZING episodes. Hush is.. brilliant. But while it had that X-factor that makes it great, it also has the Y-factor. It has those corny, roll-your-eyes, douchebag-chill inducing moments that make you want to rip your hair out with frustration because the show is so much better than that. I think I have your argument in reverse. To me, Buffy was a show that absolutely reached stellar heights, AT TIMES, but usually came crashing back down hard because of some insanely bad moment like Buffy and Angel doing Tai-Chi and calling it "training." Stupid stuff like that. Heroes, at least to me, is consistantly good. It hits those stellar highs (Hiro w/ sword on train, Eve w/ gun, Nathan w/ cloudburst), but it doesn't have a douchebag-chill inducing moment to follow it up. Debate essentially over, doesn't matter who wins, cuz we're all losers ;)
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Postby Peven on Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:42 pm

like i said, MW, you don't read enough of my posts, because i actually made a concession just the other evening, admitting that i can come across as arrogant and condescending, in an extremely touching moment with Lecko and Ribbons. you should have been there, we all hugged and sang kumbaya. it was beautiful.
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Postby MasterWhedon on Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:45 pm

Fawst wrote:...but it doesn't have a douchebag-chill inducing moment to follow it up.

You mean like every time Mohinder is on screen?

I'm sorry! I couldn't resist!


*runs away, for real this time*
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Postby Fawst on Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:47 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:
Fawst wrote:...but it doesn't have a douchebag-chill inducing moment to follow it up.

You mean like every time Mohinder is on screen?

I'm sorry! I couldn't resist!


*runs away, for real this time*


ROFLCOPTERS! Tou-fuckin-CHE, sir!
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Postby Lord Voldemoo on Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:48 pm

Fawst wrote:
In all honesty, I put them in this order:

Heroes
Buffy
Charmed
Smallville


Fawst, fair enough, you make some good points in your post. I disagree with you in that I think the eyeroll inducing moments in Buffy were pretty few and far between (and mostly included Dawn), but you make some solid points.

I just think Heroes is much, much too young to have this conversation yet. Just my opinion.

By the way, my list goes:

Buffy
Heroes
Charmed
My personal home movies
Someone else's personal home movies
a video of someone slaughtering a goat
Smallville

The sad part is...I still watch the fucking show... :lol:
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Postby Peven on Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:52 pm

Lord Voldemoo wrote:
Fawst wrote:
In all honesty, I put them in this order:

Heroes
Buffy
Charmed
Smallville


Fawst, fair enough, you make some good points in your post. I disagree with you in that I think the eyeroll inducing moments in Buffy were pretty few and far between (and mostly included Dawn), but you make some solid points.

I just think Heroes is much, much too young to have this conversation yet. Just my opinion.

By the way, my list goes:

Buffy
Heroes
Charmed
My personal home movies
Someone else's personal home movies
a video of someone slaughtering a goat
Smallville

The sad part is...I still watch the fucking show... :lol:


i was NOT slaughtering that goat, i was just chastising it for eating my socks.
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Postby Bob Samonkey on Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:53 pm

Where can I get video of goat?
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Postby MasterWhedon on Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:57 pm

FYI, this is it's own topic now. Fight on!
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Postby RaulMonkey on Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:58 pm

Bob Poopflingius Maximus wrote:Where can I get video of goat?


I did a search for you, Bob, but all I could find was stuff about kids playing in a sandbox...
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Postby Bob Samonkey on Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:00 pm

MasterWhedon wrote: Fight on!


I thought they slaughtered the goat. Now there was a fight?
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Postby MasterWhedon on Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:02 pm

Poll #1 is up!! Show vs. show vs. show in a grueling cagematch of death!!
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Postby havocSchultz on Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:07 pm

Lord Voldemoo wrote:
Fawst wrote:
In all honesty, I put them in this order:

Heroes
Buffy
Charmed
Smallville


Fawst, fair enough, you make some good points in your post. I disagree with you in that I think the eyeroll inducing moments in Buffy were pretty few and far between (and mostly included Dawn), but you make some solid points.

I just think Heroes is much, much too young to have this conversation yet. Just my opinion.

By the way, my list goes:

Buffy
Heroes
Charmed
My personal home movies
Someone else's personal home movies
a video of someone slaughtering a goat
Smallville

The sad part is...I still watch the fucking show... :lol:



You'll have to check out some of my home videos sometime...

It'll rank so much higher on that list of yours...



And fuck you Whedon...Firefly takes the cake as the best show EVAR just for it's THEME SONG ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Postby Peven on Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:08 pm

Moo was right on the money when he said Heroes too young to be crowing it with any titles. so far it is a good start and has laid a foundation that could be built into a great show, or wind up a big disappointment. it takes at least a couple yrs for a show to be judged on any all-time status as great, but only one bad season can pretty much ruin it.



i'm with Havoc as far as Firefly being the best show among the trio of Whedon shows including Buffy and Angel.
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Postby Leckomaniac on Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:10 pm

Buffy got my vote.

Lets make it interesting and put Firefly up against Battlestar Galactica.

or Veronica Mars up against Buffy.
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Postby MasterWhedon on Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:13 pm

Leckomaniac wrote:Lets make it interesting and put Firefly up against Battlestar Galactica.

or Veronica Mars up against Buffy.

Oh, we'll get there...

Personally, I want to see 24 vs. BSG.
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Postby havocSchultz on Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:13 pm

Leckomaniac wrote:
Lets make it interesting and put Firefly up against Battlestar Galactica.



...vs Andromeda vs. Stargate...!!!
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Postby Leckomaniac on Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:15 pm

The Wire vs. 24 vs. BSG anyone?
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Postby tapehead on Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:16 pm

Leckomaniac wrote:Lets make it interesting and put Firefly up against Battlestar Galactica.


not a fair comparison - given BSG's long history (this version and the previous) and Joss Whedon's well known fan-boy love for Laura Roslin, and you don't really want to encourage the browncoats... do ya?


I heart Buffy X1000
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Postby Lord Voldemoo on Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:33 pm

WHO VOTED FOR SMALLVILLE? FEEL MY WRATH!!!!

Burl?
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Postby Fried Gold on Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:49 pm

What is the reason for this comparison?
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Postby Lord Voldemoo on Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:50 pm

Fried Gold wrote:What is the reason for this comparison?


It was a threadjack run amok in the Heroes thread, we decided to split it out into its own thread.

I'm not sure how it came to be these three, but given time I'm sure the Smackdown will incorporate all genre shows...

EDIT: Oh yeah...it was Peven's fault...and Bob's...and MW's...and possibly mine...
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Postby doglips on Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:51 pm

Leckomaniac wrote:Buffy got my vote.

Lets make it interesting and put Firefly up against Battlestar Galactica.

or Veronica Mars up against Buffy.


Ditto that whole post.
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Postby Lord Voldemoo on Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:53 pm

Leckomaniac wrote:Veronica Mars up against Buffy.


*drifts away into happy daydream land*
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Postby SupportiveScottishVillage on Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:55 pm

The Slayer of the Vampires gets my vote, for certain.

I own Seasons 1-7 and watch them often. They never seem to lose that greatness, and that, IMO, is what makes a great show.
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Postby tapehead on Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:59 pm

SupportiveScottishVillage(r) seems a lot more on-topic of late

Confused Pete take note!
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