TV Smackdown (HBO SHOW vs. HBO SHOW!!)

The greatest TV in history is being made right now. The worst TV in history is being made right now.

Poll #2: Which of the following acclaimed HBO series is the absolute best?

Arli$$
0
No votes
Deadwood
8
24%
Carnivale
1
3%
Entourage
2
6%
Oz
0
No votes
Rome
1
3%
Sex and the City
3
9%
Six Feet Under
2
6%
The Sopranos
6
18%
The Wire
10
30%
 
Total votes : 33

Postby The Ginger Man on Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:04 pm

Peven wrote:Buffy might have been fun, but neither the writing, the acting, the sets or fx were anything special. it was a vampire-hunting teeny-bopper soap-opera. i'd say Heroes's quality matches up pretty well against it. :P :wink:


I was staying out of this. Playing it cool. But god, you're so f-ing wrong.

Me and the GF have recently jumped on the netflix/itunes TV DVD bandwagon. In the past 5 months, we started watching Buffy, Angel, Heroes, and Galactica. So we have watched Buffy and Heroes develop side-by-side (and still are, since we aren't done with Buffy). And Buffy kicks Heroes ass 10 different kinds of sideways.

Yeah, Buffy was fun. Started out as semi-mindless fun. And it kept being fun. But when the series is watched through, in order...you begin to notice that the fun is just a cover. It's hiding an epic story of love, friendship, growing up, and facing life along with all of its inevitabilities...especially death. I proudly place Buffy along side Babylon 5 as one of the BEST DRAMATIC television series I've ever seen.

On the other hand, Heroes hits me over the head every week, screaming "HEY!!! DO YOU LIKE MYSTERIES?!?! WE GOT A MYSTERY!!! WE GOT LOTS OF MYSTERIES....AND A CHEERLEADER!!!!!!!!"

Don't get me wrong. Heroes is fun. But it's cheap fun that shows no sign of moving beyond its hook.

Yeah. That's what I gots, yo.
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Postby Fried Gold on Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:07 pm

Smallville has been a bit rubbish for the majority of its run, basically being Dawson's Creek with kryptonite monsters from time to time. (It has had some very good episodes though)

Buffy was very good most of the time. I never particularly liked it until the fourth season (which is apparently when fans thought it went downhill) but from that point on I was a regular viewer. It was let down by some dodgy acting on occasion. Also I don't honestly think Joss Whedon knew how to end the story, and I reckon it probably could have continued on for longer if Geller didn't want to pursue a low quality movie career.

From the few episodes we've seen of Heroes, it has quickly become one of the best shows of recent years. If it continues in this way, it will easily surpass Buffy.


In conclusion:

1st - Buffy
1.5th - Heroes (just because it hasn't been on long enough)
8th - Smallville
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Postby MasterWhedon on Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:13 pm

The Ginger Man wrote:
Peven wrote:Buffy might have been fun, but neither the writing, the acting, the sets or fx were anything special. it was a vampire-hunting teeny-bopper soap-opera. i'd say Heroes's quality matches up pretty well against it. :P :wink:


I was staying out of this. Playing it cool. But god, you're so f-ing wrong.

Me and the GF have recently jumped on the netflix/itunes TV DVD bandwagon. In the past 5 months, we started watching Buffy, Angel, Heroes, and Galactica. So we have watched Buffy and Heroes develop side-by-side (and still are, since we aren't done with Buffy). And Buffy kicks Heroes ass 10 different kinds of sideways.

Yeah, Buffy was fun. Started out as semi-mindless fun. And it kept being fun. But when the series is watched through, in order...you begin to notice that the fun is just a cover. It's hiding an epic story of love, friendship, growing up, and facing life along with all of its inevitabilities...especially death. I proudly place Buffy along side Babylon 5 as one of the BEST DRAMATIC television series I've ever seen.

On the other hand, Heroes hits me over the head every week, screaming "HEY!!! DO YOU LIKE MYSTERIES?!?! WE GOT A MYSTERY!!! WE GOT LOTS OF MYSTERIES....AND A CHEERLEADER!!!!!!!!"

Don't get me wrong. Heroes is fun. But it's cheap fun that shows no sign of moving beyond its hook.

Yeah. That's what I gots, yo.

*gets boner, doesn't try to hide it*
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Postby TonyWilson on Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:32 pm

Angel pwns all these types of shows.
Elitism is positing that your taste is equivalent to quality, you hate "Hamlet" does it make it "bad"? If you think so, you're one elite motherfucker.
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Postby Keepcoolbutcare on Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:36 pm

Peven wrote:last time i looked though, popularity isn't an automatic translation into quality, especially among that age demographic.


lordy loo', then why the fuck did you constantly bring up B.O. numbers when comparing Superman Returns and X3?

Is it 'cuz you'll say anything to prove your point?

I mean, I do the same thing, but c'mon, a little consistency would be nice...

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work harder...

:D

one, of the many, interesting things about Whedon is that conflict brings out the best in him...
Personally, I'm an atheist in the voting booth and a theist in the movie theatre. I separate the morality of religion with the spirituality and solace of it. There is something boring about atheism.
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Postby MasterWhedon on Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:41 pm

Keepcoolbutcare wrote:work harder...

:D

HAHAHAHA!!

Hmm, I wonder who that "fellow Zoner" could be...

:twisted:
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Postby Fried Gold on Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:47 pm

TonyWilson wrote:Angel pwns all these types of shows.

Torchwood pwns Angel.


And by "pwns" I mean "copies".
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Postby Leckomaniac on Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:47 pm

Buffy the Vampire Slayer is the perfect example of storytelling in every form.

This isn't about acting or vfx (although both were above board) but simple storytelling. And you could literally teach a class using Buffy as your model. The same can't be said for Heroes or Smallville.
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Postby Bob Samonkey on Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:18 pm

Lord Voldemoo wrote:EDIT: Oh yeah...it was Peven's fault...and Bob's...and MW's...and possibly mine...


Yeah um...my bad. I had no idea but Muhahahahahahaha


*Runs away*
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Postby Lord Voldemoo on Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:26 am

Leckomaniac wrote:Buffy the Vampire Slayer is the perfect example of storytelling in every form.

This isn't about acting or vfx (although both were above board) but simple storytelling. And you could literally teach a class using Buffy as your model. The same can't be said for Heroes or Smallville.


See..now...even if the Bears kill my Seahawks I can still love you.

Please, everyone ignore that threadjack and stay on topic.
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Postby ONeillSG1 on Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:32 am

Lord Voldemoo wrote:WHO VOTED FOR SMALLVILLE? FEEL MY WRATH!!!!

Burl?


I did. What's it too ya, bub?
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Postby Lord Voldemoo on Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:34 am

ONeillSG1 wrote:
Lord Voldemoo wrote:WHO VOTED FOR SMALLVILLE? FEEL MY WRATH!!!!

Burl?


I did. What's it too ya, bub?


*sigh*

*shakes head, sadly*

*puts hands in pockets, turns...walks out*

:wink:

To each their own my friend, to each their own.
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Postby ONeillSG1 on Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:35 am

Ok. When does the real fire begin:

24 vs. The Shield vs. Lost vs. BSG vs. The Sopranos

Winner owns our souls forever.

And on a lighter note:

The Office (US) vs. Scrubs vs. Arrested Development vs. Friends.

Lastly:

South Park vs. The Simpsons vs. Family Guy

I am spent.
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Postby Lord Voldemoo on Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:37 am

Seriously, all four of those would be very cool debates. We need to rotate this thing once every (week? two weeks? waddya think?)
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Postby ONeillSG1 on Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:38 am

Lord Voldemoo wrote:
ONeillSG1 wrote:Ok. When does the real fire begin:

24 vs. The Shield vs. Lost vs. BSG.

Winner owns our souls forever.

And on a lighter note:

The Office (US) vs. Scrubs vs. Arrested Development vs. Friends.

Lastly:

South Park vs. The Simpsons vs. Family Guy vs. The Venture Bros.

I am spent.


Seriously, all four of those would be very cool debates. We need to rotate this thing once every (week? two weeks? waddya think?)


EDITED CHOICES. CHECK UPDATES.
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Postby MasterWhedon on Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:02 pm

Lord Voldemoo wrote:Seriously, all four of those would be very cool debates. We need to rotate this thing once every (week? two weeks? waddya think?)

I think once a week is good. New poll up next Monday!
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Postby TonyWilson on Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:05 pm

Of course the best thing about this thread is that no one has mentioned The Wire in all these competitions. No one's silly enough to put the undeniable Greatest TV Show in history into the ring with anything else.

That's cool guys, I get it.




*bagawk*
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Postby The Ginger Man on Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:07 pm

24 vs. The Shield vs. Lost vs. BSG vs. The Sopranos

WTF? How do Lost and BSG fit into that one? Wouldn't it be better as 24 vs Shield vs The Wire vs Sopranos? Or even take Sopranos out....hmmm

Lost should be compared to all the other series it spawned, Heroes included.

And BSG vs Babylon 5. That shit needs to happen like now.
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Postby Lord Voldemoo on Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:09 pm

We should do an all-HBO smackdown: The Sopranos vs. The Wire vs. Rome vs. Oz...or something.
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Postby The Ginger Man on Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:09 pm

TonyWilson wrote:Of course the best thing about this thread is that no one has mentioned The Wire in all these competitions. No one's silly enough to put the undeniable Greatest TV Show in history into the ring with anything else.

That's cool guys, I get it.




*bagawk*


Just did it, baby. It's all good.
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Postby TonyWilson on Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:13 pm

Nice.


So how about:

Deadwood vs The Sopranos vs The Wire vs Oz vs Rome (but only one season, so maybe we save it for later this year?)

And

Carnivale vs BSG vs Lost vs Babylon 5 vs Star Trek TNG
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Postby Vegeta on Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:16 pm

I had to vote Buffy, however I think the last 12 or so episodes of Angel were probably the best TV ever.
I haven't watched Heroes yet, it seems very much like a Lost to me... which I've tried to watch, but it just seems like it isn't going anywhere. I don't think the writers for that show have any idea what they wanted to do with it. They just keeping adding layers til the show starts to make very little sense, kind of like the X-Files (especially in the late seasons).
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Postby so sorry on Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:17 pm

Lord Voldemoo wrote:EDIT: Oh yeah...it was Peven's fault...and Bob's...and MW's...and possibly mine...


HEY, I helped instigate it! I want some credit!
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Postby Lord Voldemoo on Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:19 pm

TonyWilson wrote:Nice.


So how about:

Deadwood vs The Sopranos vs The Wire vs Oz vs Rome (but only one season, so maybe we save it for later this year?)

And

Carnivale vs BSG vs Lost vs Babylon 5 vs Star Trek TNG


:shock: :oops:

How did I not include Deadwood on the list?! Ugh, not enough coffee yet. And I agree about Rome, maybe we should save this until it has two seasons under its belt.

EDIT: So Sorry was the evil ringleader.
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Postby MasterWhedon on Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:22 pm

Lord Voldemoo wrote:We should do an all-HBO smackdown: The Sopranos vs. The Wire vs. Rome vs. Oz...or something.

No Sex and the City? No Arli$$? No Taxicab Confessions?

Seriously though, I want us to come up with "themes" for each week, like "cop show vs. cop show," or "single camera sitcom vs. single camera sitcom." The shows included don't have to be EXACTLY alike, but there should be a common thread. If we're discussing super-serialized shows, Lost and 24 could be included, but otherwise those don't have too much in common. Make sense?
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Postby Ribbons on Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:27 pm

I've barely seen any episodes of "Buffy" and purposely try to avoid watching "Smallville," so "Heroes" wins by default with me.

In its defense, I think it has a lot of potential. It's well-accomodated by NBC, plus several of its mistakes could just turn out to be rookie ones. They've already gotten rid of Mohinder's craptacular opening/closing monologues. As for the show not being "about" anything, that's a legitimate observation, although I do think it could grow into something better than it presently is. There's the potential for subtext involving interdependence, power and responsibility, nobility through duty, and so on. Also -- and I say this only to equivocate -- but whether or not a show is thematically ambitious doesn't necessarily make it better than a show that isn't.
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Postby MasterWhedon on Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:55 pm

Ribbons wrote:As for the show not being "about" anything, that's a legitimate observation, although I do think it could grow into something better than it presently is. There's the potential for subtext involving interdependence, power and responsibility, nobility through duty, and so on.

Agreed, and I think perhaps I come across as being harder on the show than I should be, but it's only because I feel so strongly that it could be something... more. I find Heroes to be very entertaining and brimming with potential, but it's a frustrating experience when you only like something you want to love.

Ribbons wrote:Also -- and I say this only to equivocate -- but whether or not a show is thematically ambitious doesn't necessarily make it better than a show that isn't.

You're right. Ambition is only the starting point. It's the fact that Buffy aimed for such great heights and consistently hit its marks along the way that makes it as great as it is. There was a surface level of action and fun and cool, but the true power of the show comes from the finely-layered subtext of character growth and emotional resonance that made it something much more than a girl kicking pointy-toothed guys in the face.

All that said, it's pretty unfair to compare seven seasons of Buffy to a show--any show--that's still in its first season. Heroes could surprise me and turn out to have much more to say than I imagine it does, but it appears to be more interested in thrilling than moving, if that makes sense.
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Postby so sorry on Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:58 pm

so anyone want to discuss the fact taht Heroes won the People's Award for Best New Drama last night?

anyone?

hello?



*cricket cricket*
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Postby Bob Samonkey on Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:00 pm

so sorry wrote:so anyone want to discuss the fact taht Heroes won the People's Award for Best New Drama last night?

anyone?

hello?



*cricket cricket*


Could not sit through that show. It hurt my brain...
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Postby so sorry on Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:02 pm

you're not supposed to bring your brain to a People's Choice Awards show you silly little monkey.
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Postby Fawst on Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:27 pm

Heroes gets my love, but considering my previous posts in this (and the original) thread, I guess that's no surprise.

A new factor has been brought up that I think really influences my feelings, and that's the soap-opera aspect of Buffy. I hate soap-operas. But I don't hate Buffy, not by a long shot. I think it's one of the "negatives" I have against it, but it doesn't break it for me. In the end, it comes down to personal preference, duh, and I just have a far stronger emotional reaction to watching Heroes than Buffy.

Then again, I loved Star Trek:TNG when it first came out, and try comparing that to either Buffy or Heroes. Same thing, there's personal love for it, but the other shows have far better VFX and whatnot. The only fair comparison in all of this is that everything mentioned so far is better than Smallville. Including Charmed. :)

Alias vs. 24? I say Alias, actually...

Oh, and go Heroes for PC award!
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Postby burlivesleftnut on Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:28 pm

The Ginger Man wrote:I proudly place Buffy along side Babylon 5 as one of the BEST DRAMATIC television series...


Ouch. As someone who loves Buffy, that stung like a mother fuck. Stop defending things I like.
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Postby havocSchultz on Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:36 pm

burlivesleftnut wrote:
The Ginger Man wrote:I proudly place Buffy along side Babylon 5 as one of the BEST DRAMATIC television series...


Ouch. As someone who loves Buffy, that stung like a mother fuck. Stop defending things I like.




Buffy's the greatest DRAMATIC SERIES since SeaQuest...




Is that better burl...?
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Postby burlivesleftnut on Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:49 pm

I would prefer a comparison to VR5, but SeaQuest will do in a pinch.
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Postby havocSchultz on Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:50 pm

Well...I'm all about doing it in a pinch...
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Postby Fawst on Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:54 pm

Buffy:Babylon 5::Friends:Joey
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Postby Ribbons on Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:56 pm

Spike was in "Babylon 5"?
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Postby so sorry on Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:59 pm

I don't even understand what this thread is about any more...
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Postby havocSchultz on Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:00 pm

so sorry wrote:I don't even understand what this thread is about any more...




Jonathan Brandis GOTTA EAT!!!!
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Postby Fawst on Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:05 pm

Ribbons wrote:Spike was in "Babylon 5"?


Sorry, that was a horrible analogy. Let me try again:

Buffy : Babylon 5 :: 24 : Walker, Texas Ranger
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Postby Ribbons on Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:10 pm

Fawst wrote:Buffy : Babylon 5 :: 24 : Walker, Texas Ranger


IPAMPILASH!

Now I get it...
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Postby RaulMonkey on Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:08 pm

Lord Voldemoo wrote:WHO VOTED FOR SMALLVILLE? FEEL MY WRATH!!!!

Burl?


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Realistically I'm confident that Buffy is the best, but I only really followed it in the '97-'98 season. It's one I'll have to rediscover someday. HEROES and SMALLVILLE are both "appointment" shows of mine, but there's no denying that I'm more jazzed about what'll happen next on SMALLVILLE. I'm sorry, the legacy of Superman wins out over a half-season of HEROES antics.

The overarching plot of SMALLVILLE is backed up with a legend that exists in the collective unconscience, especially the collective GEEK unconscience, and SMALLVILLE gives me a geek-boner harder than steel when it delves into that legend. Little wisps of John Williams' theme? Get me a change of pants. THE GREEN ARROW?? After finally reading DKR and DKSB last summer, I can't remember the last time my ginch were this crusty.

But the non-mythology episodes can blow me. That last episode, "Subterranean..." God, gag me with a wooden spoon. Jimmy needs a beating, and so does that little Mexican-American superman.
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Postby burlivesleftnut on Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:43 pm

Man I am such a sucker, I even like the standalone episodes for the most part.
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Postby TonyWilson on Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:48 pm

burlivesleftnut wrote:Man I am such a sucker, I even like the standalone episodes for the most part.



Hahaha

Smallville has made Burl its bitch.
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Postby RaulMonkey on Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:53 pm

burlivesleftnut wrote:Man I am such a sucker, I even like the standalone episodes for the most part.


Well, I didn't say I don't watch 'em. ;) But I find that there's much about SMALLVILLE that needs to be actively redeemed. The romantic sub-plots and other assorted cheese needs to be consistently balanced out with cool comic book references, not simply cheap horror (Lana becomes a vampire) or crappy sf.
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Postby burlivesleftnut on Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:08 pm

No I mean I LOVE them. My place is a MESS after each episode and me bum always hurts.
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Postby Fried Gold on Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:35 pm

Fawst wrote:Buffy : Babylon 5 :: 24 : Walker, Texas Ranger



So:
Buffy and Babylon 5 both begin with "b".
Babylon 5 and 24 both have numbers in their title.


I don't get the link between the last two.....
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Postby ONeillSG1 on Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:45 pm

TonyWilson wrote:
burlivesleftnut wrote:Man I am such a sucker, I even like the standalone episodes for the most part.



Hahaha

Smallville has made Burl its bitch.


Someone had to do.
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Postby DaleTremont on Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:23 pm

I've never understood the criticism that Buffy had bad effects, unrealistic sets, and cheesy moments. To me, that's kind of like saying a Lucio Fulci horror movie has no value because the gore is unbelievable (as in unrealistic) and the acting is wooden. Creating a great show is about working with what you're given. Unlike some shows with loads of moneybags to prop them up that are all style and no heart *cough Heroes cough* Buffy was a high concept show that took what it could and ran with it. Sure, they didn't have the best stuff to work with, but it didn't really matter. It was never about that. It was about Joss Whedon's vision, the story, the characters. Buffy was EPIC. That's why people still talk about it.

And that cheese aspect, that was just part of that world. I always thought that was one of the reasons why the show, besides being brilliant, was so enjoyable. It never took itself too seriously. Only crazy fans like me do that..umm I mean the show, not myself.

*pants*

I'm done.
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Postby havocSchultz on Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:31 pm

Fried Gold wrote:
Fawst wrote:Buffy : Babylon 5 :: 24 : Walker, Texas Ranger



So:
Buffy and Babylon 5 both begin with "b".
Babylon 5 and 24 both have numbers in their title.


I don't get the link between the last two.....


I think he's trying to say that comparing Buffy to Babylon 5, is like comparing 24 to Walker, Texas Ranger (I'm assuming the show, and not Ricky Bobby's children...)

If I'm getting the gist of it - he's comparing the craptacular Walker to Babylon5...
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