GAME OF THRONES

[TheBaxter]

FINALE: welp, that's it, folks! spoilers to follow, obviously...

i know you're all dying to know my opinion of this episode, and as you all probably already guessed...

i liked it.

now, granted, i had to do a LOT of work to enjoy it. mainly, i had to imagine a completely different seasons 7-8, a version in which the show took it's time to properly develop the characters and plotlines that got us to this point, and primarily, to believably set up and execute Dany's turn towards evil and megalomania. i like the idea that evil is often done by those who believe they are doing good, it's a POV i largely agree with. though evil acts often done by people who are simply operating out of greed and self-interest, represented by people such as Cersei or Trump, the worst, most extreme acts of evil come from the "true believers" who believe they are operating for some higher purpose which justifies any act. i think the finale adequately made that point, which i'm sure is probably the point GRRM is driving towards with this series as well, assuming he plans on executing the same Dany character arc. it's just a shame the producers of this tv version felt the need to rush the series to this conclusion, which only serves to undercut the power of the point they're making.

but, that said, going into this finale accepting that we're starting off with Evil Queen Dany and going from there, the finale was as good as could be hoped for and, imagining that alternate-reality version of the seasons leading up to it, made for an effective end to the series. i suppose i was surprised that a) the Dany situation was dealt with so quickly, and a decent amount of the episode deals with post-Dany Westeros, and b) that it was such a (relatively) happy and upbeat ending. i think i was really expecting something pretty dark and depressing, and what we end up with is actually a slightly better version of the world we started with, some hope of things improving.

other quick thoughts:

Peter DInklage - all the best acting moments of this show have belonged to him, and the finale was no exception. his scene with Jaime and Cersei was as amazing as you'd expect. he earned his top billing this episode.

the finale also delivered the hands-down funniest moment this show has ever had - Sam Tarly's almost-but-not-quite invention of democracy.

thank Zod jon snow did not end up king. he finally manned up and did something useful this episode, but after several seasons of ineptitude, he got the ending he deserved. the only place jon snow ever showed any competence was as part of the night's watch, so it's appropriate he ends up back there.

Grey Worm "self-deporting" himself and the unsullied to Naath... did Mitt Romney write this scene?

Ghost - once again proving that dogs (and wolves) are more loyal, better, and just plain gooder than human beings.

Drogon - wherefore art thou, Drogon. well, first of all, i guess dragons are smarter than they seem. Drogon melting the throne, then flying (apparently "east" so i guess he's headed back to Essos?) like he was saying "fuck all this game of thrones shit, it got my mommy killed, i'm gonna go back home where there's plenty of sheep and shepherd's boys to kill and eat". really though, when jon stabbed dany and then drogon took off with her lifeless body, and there was still more than half an episode to kill, i fully expected we'd be seeing the Night Queen after all. even moreso when jon ended up back with the night's watch, and that final shot of him and the wildlings heading up north, i thought there'd be a last shot of Dany opening a very blue eye.

but, nope. so much for all that prophecy crap i guess.

not sure what i think of King Bran the Broken. he sure seemed pretty smug and satisfied with himself, for someone who supposedly wants to be king about as much as jon. maybe the future of Westeros is not so bright as it first seemed.

i guess one of those spinoff shows is gonna be The Further Adventures of Arya. wonder what she'll find to the west... maybe that magically disappearing white horse?

[Fievel]

Did Jon really join the Night's Watch, though?
It appeared to me that he was leading the remaining Wildings back beyond The Wall along with Tormund. I took it to mean that he just kept going North just like Arya set off Westward.

I enjoyed it enough. But now I want the books worse than ever - not because I didn't like the show ending, but because the books and show are so different at this point (in the books), and I'm dying to see how Martin ties it all up.

[so sorry]

I expected worse.

That said, I can't say that I enjoyed any of it.

Dany's Hitler moment on the top of the steps was a magnificent scene, I'll give them that. Jon reuniting with Ghost, OK, that got a smile out of me. Everything else was a head scratcher, leaving more questions than answers. I just couldn't enjoy it for what it was I guess, and I know that's on me, not them.

A short list of my questions:

Greyworm: God, where to begin with this guy. His chick gets killed, so he decides to turn into a kill-them-all machine. But when his Queen gets assassinated, he decides to just put the assassin in jail, waiting for someone else to figure out what to do with him?

The Dothraki: um, where did they go? Same thing, their Queen was just killed, and they're all OK with it?

The Night's Watch: what's the point now?????? The wildling threat is gone, the army of the undead is gone, and The North is now its own independent kingdom, so what's the point of having anyone sitting on a giant wall freezing there balls off?

Sansa: her brother just became king, so what was the point of seceding from the crown?

Bran: so, he was a little Struggling Background Artist wasn't he? "Why do you think I came all this way?"

Bronn: Ok, so the lords of westeros are totally A-OK with a cutthroat being gifted the richest of the 7 kingdoms?

Jon: he didn't do anything wrong really, the only one who took exception to him killing Dany was her most loyal soldier Greyworm. Why did they decide he needed to be punished/banished to the Wall? To appease Greyworm, who decided to leave the country anyway?

Arya: Ok, I'm totally fine with her ending... she had no more list to deal with, so she's decided to go travel abroad.

Small Council: so their plan is to overturn the history of rule by electing a ruler who can bear no children, so the next ruler will need to be elected I guess? So Sam and his silly democracy statement may come true?

[Wolfpack]

I guess Bran is King of the Six Kingdoms with Sansa deciding to secede.

[Al Shut]

Jon: he didn't do anything wrong really, the only one who took exception to him killing Dany was her most loyal soldier Greyworm. Why did they decide he needed to be punished/banished to the Wall? To appease Greyworm, who decided to leave the country anyway?

Maybe they thought that's what should have happend the last time, but didn't.

[so sorry]

Jon: he didn't do anything wrong really, the only one who took exception to him killing Dany was her most loyal soldier Greyworm. Why did they decide he needed to be punished/banished to the Wall? To appease Greyworm, who decided to leave the country anyway?

Maybe they thought that's what should have happend the last time, but didn't.

Maybe. I'm also guessing that Jon's true lineage is NOT publicly known either.

[so sorry]

I guess Bran is King of the Six Kingdoms with Sansa deciding to secede.

Right.

Seems like Bran's whole plan all along was to get the tyrant(s) off of the throne, and become the leader in name only, and let the small council run things in a more efficient/fair way.

[Fievel]

I guess Bran is King of the Six Kingdoms with Sansa deciding to secede.

Right.

Seems like Bran's whole plan all along was to get the tyrant(s) off of the throne, and become the leader in name only, and let the small council run things in a more efficient/fair way.

See, this is actually what has me excited for the books. I'm assuming that the basic idea of Bran on the throne will stick in the books (once all the extra BS in the million sub-plots is wrapped up). But there we'll get insight through Bran - starting with his transformation into the 3ER (Hold the door, Jon's birth, etc), and leading to whatever the fuck he was doing this entire final season.

If none of you have followed Leslie Jones's Twitter commentary on these episodes, I'd highly recommend it. I haven't seen her reactions to last night yet, though.

[TheBaxter]

I expected worse.

That said, I can't say that I enjoyed any of it.

Dany's Hitler moment on the top of the steps was a magnificent scene, I'll give them that. Jon reuniting with Ghost, OK, that got a smile out of me. Everything else was a head scratcher, leaving more questions than answers. I just couldn't enjoy it for what it was I guess, and I know that's on me, not them.

well, after Lost and BSG and other big show finales, i pretty much go into these things not expecting every question to be answered or plotline fully/satisfyingly resolved. on the whole they did better than i expected.

A short list of my questions:

Greyworm: God, where to begin with this guy. His chick gets killed, so he decides to turn into a kill-them-all machine. But when his Queen gets assassinated, he decides to just put the assassin in jail, waiting for someone else to figure out what to do with him?

yeah, Tyrion was already put in jail by Dany so that made sense. but this guy began the episode by slitting the throats of Lannister soldiers one by one, but he doesn't automatically kill Jon after what he did? or at least they fight it out before Jon escapes or, more true to his character, is about to get killed by a crowd of Unsullied when Arya comes and rescues him. the only explanation i can think of is that everything Greyworm has done up to this point (even executing the soldiers) was done at Dany's command. without her to command him, maybe he didn't know what to do so he just put him in jail instead? or maybe they did kill him, but he came back to life again so they needed another idea. i've recently become acquainted with the term "plot armor" and this seems like a textbook example.

The Dothraki: um, where did they go? Same thing, their Queen was just killed, and they're all OK with it?

shhh, we're not supposed to think about them. we're only supposed to care about the white characters. the Dothraki are an amazing race of people, they show up when the story needs them and then just disappear when they're no longer needed.

The Night's Watch: what's the point now?????? The wildling threat is gone, the army of the undead is gone, and The North is now its own independent kingdom, so what's the point of having anyone sitting on a giant wall freezing there balls off?

this is why i thought that crazy Night Queen theory might come true. i guess maybe they think some new white walkers could come back or something?

Sansa: her brother just became king, so what was the point of seceding from the crown?

so she could be a queen, which is what she always wanted anyway. once Sansa killed Ramsay, and then especially after getting Littlefinger executed, she basically became a new Littlefinger. she's Sansafinger.

Bran: so, he was a little Struggling Background Artist wasn't he? "Why do you think I came all this way?"

i think there's something to the "Bran is evil" theories after all. he didn't become the Night King or anything crazy like that. but, if he really could foresee how all this would turn out, then he must have foreseen what Dany would do to King's Landing, and how it would all eventually lead to him being named King. and he let it happen. he could have told Jon earlier what Dany would do, though granted, Jon still probably wouldn't have done anything about it because he's a knob. but he could have told Arya anytime while Dany was still at Winterfell, and Arya could have ended her before it happened. but then maybe he doesn't become King. Dany may have been the one to actually burn the city down, but if Bran let it happen just so he could end up King, when he could have prevented it, he's just as much to blame. and even if he's not evil, even if he actually has the same ideas as Dany about "getting rid of the tyrants" and bringing about a better world, then in effect he's no different than her. he's just as willing to allow innocent people to die for his "better world" as she was.

Bronn: Ok, so the lords of westeros are totally A-OK with a cutthroat being gifted the richest of the 7 kingdoms?

it's like they had to do something with him to wrap up the character, but it makes no sense. he's a ruthless merc who even til the end was willing to kill his friends (unless they made him a better offer), but he's "likeable" so you make him a lord, giving him an army AND put him in charge of the treasury? seems reasonable.

Jon: he didn't do anything wrong really, the only one who took exception to him killing Dany was her most loyal soldier Greyworm. Why did they decide he needed to be punished/banished to the Wall? To appease Greyworm, who decided to leave the country anyway?

in retrospect, i liked Jon's character arc. it seemed like they were setting him up for a whole "reluctant king" arc which is so cliche'd and overdone, and completely unearned after all the stupid decisions he's made. so much of what happened could have been prevented if he just kept his stupid trap shut, and he probably knows it too, he's got resting guilty face the whole episode (and season, and series...) so he ends up where he deserves, where he belongs, and probably even where he wants to be. instead of the reluctant king, he is the lone wolf, the wanderer who struggles with his identity, his heritage, and finding where he belongs in the world, and he's still searching, and that's a more satisfying conclusion for him.

Small Council: so their plan is to overturn the history of rule by electing a ruler who can bear no children, so the next ruler will need to be elected I guess? So Sam and his silly democracy statement may come true?

elected by the rich and powerful lords of Westeros, which is to say.... yeah, pretty much what passes for democracy these days.

[Al Shut]

i think there's something to the "Bran is evil" theories after all. he didn't become the Night King or anything crazy like that. but, if he really could foresee how all this would turn out, then he must have foreseen what Dany would do to King's Landing, and how it would all eventually lead to him being named King. and he let it happen. he could have told Jon earlier what Dany would do, though granted, Jon still probably wouldn't have done anything about it because he's a knob. but he could have told Arya anytime while Dany was still at Winterfell, and Arya could have ended her before it happened. but then maybe he doesn't become King. Dany may have been the one to actually burn the city down, but if Bran let it happen just so he could end up King, when he could have prevented it, he's just as much to blame. and even if he's not evil, even if he actually has the same ideas as Dany about "getting rid of the tyrants" and bringing about a better world, then in effect he's no different than her. he's just as willing to allow innocent people to die for his "better world" as she was.

Haven't seen any of what could probably answer my question. Is this some sort of Dr Manhattan thing where he can't prevent the future because he already knows that he doesn't?

[Peven]

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/on-television/game-of-thrones-season-8-finale-recap-the-iron-throne?utm_source=facebook&utm_social-type=owned&utm_brand=tny&utm_medium=social&mbid=social_facebook&fbclid=IwAR12sviQvYRfB3HNQCeOSMpakmfWGwkocPn23Jadu2j2_YAVg6R8YxNzrfs&fbclid=IwAR1Qa46NFoQ1-6E8kaHq_iqEi66zHHGrfqmAN-WJ36raHNDztfOIHqzKXnc

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/tv-reviews/critics-notebook-game-of-thrones-ended-as-well-as-a-sprawling-complicated-epic-could-end/ar-AABC4B7?ocid=msn360

i liked these reviews

[TheBaxter]

imagine if this show had taken as much time with Danaerys in Westeros as it had with her in Essos. imagine if she had sailed to Westeros earlier, and over the course of 3 or more seasons, she saw her armies slowly depleted fighting off various resisters from Dorne in the south to the wildlings in the North and everywhere in between, all the while holding back on using her dragons to their full power in fear of how it would make her look. imagine her idealism and desire to free the common people of Westeros from the lords and tyrants she believes them to be shackled under, gradually turning to frustration as she loses battles and sees some of her allies and advisers, and maybe a dragon or two, die along the way, and she becomes increasingly isolated and paranoid as other allies and advisers begin to doubt her or conspire against her. and then, when she finally does begin winning some battles, and starts to turn the tides of war to her advantage, using her dragons more and more effectively to gain territory and spread her power, she is met by the common people, not with love and adoration as she experienced in Essos, but with suspicion, anger and hatred. she is treated as an invader and a usurper, not as the liberator she sees herself as. the righteous fury she felt towards the "tyrants" of Westeros begins to seep down to the common people too. she begins to see them as the enemy just as much as the lords who ruled over them. finally, she flies into King's Landing, having finally unseated Cersei, and gives a grand speech to the people of King's Landing from on top of Drogon, about how they are free now from tyranny, and will be part of a better world, and instead of cheers, she's met with crowds screaming insults and tossing garbage at her. finally she gives in to the rage. finally she realizes these people will never love her, will never accept her. as she said to Jon, "then let it be fear." she gives in to the rage and frustration that has been mounting in her over several months of her Westerosi campaign, she utters the word "Dracarys" and burns them alive. then she takes off, sacking the city, burning everyone and everything in sight.

this is the version of Dany's story we'll never get to see. maybe we'll get to read about it someday. it's the version i imagined going into the finale, and the version i'll imagine if i rewatch this series sometime later. the show touched on a few points here and there, like her frustration in the early stages of the war, and her jealousy that she wasn't getting the love she felt she deserved. but it bulldozed through them too fast for them to have any impact, treating them not as long-term character development but as quick points to hit so that we could get on to the next big battle or setpiece. and crucially, it missed the biggest part: the point where she goes from blaming the lords of Westeros for the evils of the world, to blaming the common people. without that, her decision to sack the city and massacre the people makes no sense, it has not logical through line to get her to that point, the journey from hero of the smallfolk to their destroyer has a glaring hole the show never fills. that's why it is such an unsatisfying conclusion to her story and the series as a whole.

[Peven]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/sophie-turner-slams-thrones-backlash-183425653.html?ncid=facebook_yahoonewsf_akfmevaatca

[TheBaxter]

[so sorry]

"Disappointing... oh wait, I meant EPIC!" Ha!

[TheBaxter]

"Disappointing... oh wait, I meant EPIC!" Ha!

he was right both times.

[TheBaxter]

Aaron Rodgers ain't down with King Bran

damn. he blasted the writers like Dany blasted King's Landing. guess he can kiss that Star Wars cameo goodbye.

"King in the (NFC) North! King in the (NFC) North!"

[Ribbons]

And we haven't even talked about the GODDAMN WATER BOTTLE.

[Wolfpack]

And we haven't even talked about the GODDAMN WATER BOTTLE.

I've heard rumors about it regarding an on-set romance with the Starbucks cup. To tell you the truth, I think the two are a bit dilutional.

[TheBaxter]

And we haven't even talked about the GODDAMN WATER BOTTLE.

It's not TV. It's H2O.

I've heard rumors about it regarding an on-set romance with the Starbucks cup. To tell you the truth, I think the two are a bit dilutional.

A Song of Ice and Coffee

[TheBaxter]

[Peven]

Aaron Rodgers ain't down with King Bran

damn. he blasted the writers like Dany blasted King's Landing. guess he can kiss that Star Wars cameo goodbye.

"King in the (NFC) North! King in the (NFC) North!"

a right tackle on the 49'rs says the finale was great. you know, because football players are where we should look for guidance on how to evaluate shows on tv.

he should worry more about justifying that salary of his this year because he's running out of people to scapegoat for his failures. he and big rapey ben ought to start a band called The Deflectors.

[TheBaxter]

Aaron Rodgers ain't down with King Bran

damn. he blasted the writers like Dany blasted King's Landing. guess he can kiss that Star Wars cameo goodbye.

"King in the (NFC) North! King in the (NFC) North!"

a right tackle on the 49'rs says the finale was great. you know, because football players are where we should look for guidance on how to evaluate shows on tv.

he should worry more about justifying that salary of his this year because he's running out of people to scapegoat for his failures. he and big rapey ben ought to start a band called The Deflectors.

Big Rapey Ben was a character from season 3, wasn't he?

[Peven]

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/game-of-thrones-poll-finale_n_5ce68cfde4b0db9c2993b91c?utm_campaign=hp_fb_pages&ir=Entertainment&ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000024&utm_source=entertainment_fb&utm_medium=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2DuFY7LR9MyInT8Jp3Ns4lG4EzAkHrdiiqWqSh_UMgFHTiWJvcy9qHVp8

[TheBaxter]

i also liked the finale, as my long post at the top spelled out.

it's most of what led up to the finale that was disappointing.

[so sorry]

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/game-of-thrones-poll-finale_n_5ce68cfde4b0db9c2993b91c?utm_campaign=hp_fb_pages&ir=Entertainment&ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000024&utm_source=entertainment_fb&utm_medium=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2DuFY7LR9MyInT8Jp3Ns4lG4EzAkHrdiiqWqSh_UMgFHTiWJvcy9qHVp8

63% of respondents who said they were fans of the series, and who watched at least some of the finale on the night it aired, revealed they liked the last episode to some degree.

Well that's one hell of a ringing endorsement.

I, too, liked it to some degree.

[Peven]

the point is, if you browse the headlines over the last week there are all sorts of "GoT Fans Hate Finale" examples. an outside observer would think hardly any fans liked it going by the coverage they saw afterward. the entertainment "press" is garbage and the coverage of the finale is a perfect example.

[Wolfpack]

It really depends on who yells the loudest.

[TheBaxter]

It really depends on who yells the loudest.

[Ribbons]

This is amazing.

[Peven]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/game-thrones-director-pushed-shocking-102000181.html

i like this guy and his cinematic sensibilities, wish he had more say in the episodes he directed and had directed more episodes. i would like to have seen his unfettered version of the Battle for Winterfell.

[TheBaxter]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/game-thrones-director-pushed-shocking-102000181.html

i like this guy and his cinematic sensibilities, wish he had more say in the episodes he directed and had directed more episodes. i would like to have seen his unfettered version of the Battle for Winterfell.

i would have liked to have seen the Battle of Winterfell, period.

[so sorry]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/game-thrones-director-pushed-shocking-102000181.html

i like this guy and his cinematic sensibilities, wish he had more say in the episodes he directed and had directed more episodes. i would like to have seen his unfettered version of the Battle for Winterfell.

i would have liked to have seen the Battle of Winterfell, period.

[Peven]

some people should really spend the money to have the Geek Squad set up their HD tvs for them

[TheBaxter]

some people should really spend the money to have the Geek Squad set up their HD tvs for them

true, but this show's producers and cinematographer would never admit they don't know how to take their TVs off Vivid mode.

[TheBaxter]

i guess this is old news, but i never heard it before....

Millie Bobbie Brownie nearly played the part of Lyanna Mormont in GoT

no doubt she could've pulled it off, but it's hard now to imagine a different actress in that part. fun to imagine her and Bella Ramsey swapping parts on those two shows though.