Super Bowl Commercials

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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby so sorry on Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:05 am

We need a stink bomb year of commercials every now and then to shake things up...

First up for firing IMO: godaddy's ad agency. The "provocative" and "sexy" ads that they were know for 5 years ago are tame and lame now. They are a parody of themselves.
Their commercials this time around: "we're SO sexy and provocative that we can't even show our commericals on tv, so go to our website to watch them!"
Let em get this straight, you're telling me in your tv commercial to go to your website to watch a tv commercial? Are you fucking kidding me? And News Flash, Danika Patrick is a beautiful woman, but she is not the hottest piece of ass on the planet. Stop trying to sell her like she is.
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby The Vicar on Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:21 pm

Godaddy's ads were utter shite. Danica Patrick? Please. Get Shakira and we'll talk.
It really was a piss lousy field of ads this time out. The only remotely good one was with Betty White & Abe Vigoda.
It must have been a local phenomenon, but the ads and the commentary on the football game, through most of the first quarter,
sounded like it was run through one of those filters pervs use when they call a victim....slow tape speed and all that jazz.
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby Fievel on Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:26 pm

Our HD CBS channel here (Metro Detroit) has absolutely horrible sound. It's the only channel that is like that on our entire cable system.

The Simpsons commercial just made me smile and sigh. It wasn't good, but it was far from bad.

Until Danica Patrick actually makes out with another female on those GoDaddy commercials, they'll be labeled as SUCK/FAIL.
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby The Vicar on Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:30 pm

Yeah, the Simpsons commercial was okay. That was one of the ones where the sound was bolloxed.
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby buster00 on Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:06 am

It's way past time to do away with the myth that Super Bowl ads are so goddamn great.

Predictable. Cliche. In short, YAWN. Frankly, the same goes for just about any commercial during any old sporting event.

The more soccer games I watch on TV, the more I appreciate the lack of spots they contain.
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby Ribbons on Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:31 am

I'm not even sure why, but I kind of liked this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul63nCoYhBc
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby TheButcher on Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:39 am

From Collider:
Check Out the List of Trailers to Debut During Super Bowl XLV
Jeff Ames wrote:
    * Super 8
    * Transformers: Dark of the Moon
    * Thor
    * Captain America: The First Avenger
    * Cowboys & Aliens
    * Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides
    * Rango
    * Limitless

Jeff Ames wrote:Here is a list of films whose respective studios decided to save a few million and preview footage during the pre-game festivities:

    * Battle: Los Angeles
    * Priest
    * The Eagle
    * Kung Fu Panda 2
    * Take Me Home Tonight
    * Just Go With It
    * Justin Bieber: Never Say Never


THR EXCLUSIVE:
Studios Set Super Bowl Ads; 'Pirates,' 'Transformers,' 'Captain America'
Pamela McClintock wrote:With a little more than two weeks until Super Bowl XLV, Hollywood is finalizing its plan to take advantage of the most-watched television event of the year.

Paramount will have a monster studio presence during the Feb. 6 telecast, buying ad time to plug five films -- J.J. Abrams' alien-invasion pic Super 8, the threequel Transformers: Dark of the Moon, Gore Verbinski's CGI film Rango and Marvel's superhero pics Thor and Captain America: The First Avenger. All are high-priority event movies for the studio.

As in past years, the Super Bowl will provide the first glimpse of Hollywood's summer lineup. Disney has bought time during the game for Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides, while Universal and DreamWorks' will plug the Daniel Craig-Harrison Ford sci-fi western Cowboys & Aliens.

Rango opens March 4, followed by Thor on May 6, Pirates on May 20, Super 8 on June 10, Transformers on July 1, Captain America on July 22 and Cowboys on July 29.

Warner Bros. and Fox appear to be sitting this year out, but that could change. And studios participating could add spots for other films before the game.

There also will be spots for high-profile titles opening between now and summer.

Relativity Media, now in the domestic distribution game, is entering the Super Bowl fray for the first time, buying time for the Bradley Cooper/Robert De Niro starrer Limitless, which opens March 18.

Rates for the Feb. 6 game on Fox are running about $3 million per 30-second spot, up slightly from last year. But the Super Bowl delivers TV's most powerful audience, with a record 106 million viewers tuning in last year. Although studios have been spending less since 2006 because of the prohibitive cost, they are major supporters of the big game. For instance, a new study from Kanta Media says Disney has spent $70.8 million on Super Bowl ads since 2001.

So far, Hollywood's spend on Super Bowl advertising this year is on par with 2010, if not up a bit.

Several studios are bypassing the game proper and airing spots during pregame festivities, when rates are substantially lower.

That includes Sony, which will air spots for Just Go With It (Feb. 11), Battle: Los Angeles (March 13) and summer title Priest (May 13) in the hours leading up to the game. Focus Features will air a spot for The Eagle (Feb. 11).

Paramount also will have a pregame presence, buying time for Kung Fu Panda 2 (May 27).

Relativity will air a promo for Take Me Home Tonight (March 4) during Glee, which receives the post-Super Bowl berth this year. And Paramount will buy time for Valentine’s Day 3D concert documentary Justin Bieber: Never Say Never.

Super Bowl movie advertising was at an all-time low in 2007, when only four spots aired.
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby so sorry on Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:53 am

TheButcher wrote:From Collider:
Check Out the List of Trailers to Debut During Super Bowl XLV
Jeff Ames wrote:
    * Super 8
    * Transformers: Dark of the Moon
    * Thor
    * Captain America: The First Avenger
    * Cowboys & Aliens
    * Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides
    * Rango
    * Limitless

Jeff Ames wrote:Here is a list of films whose respective studios decided to save a few million and preview footage during the pre-game festivities:

    * Battle: Los Angeles
    * Priest
    * The Eagle
    * Kung Fu Panda 2
    * Take Me Home Tonight
    * Just Go With It



That's a nice lineup right there. Almost takes the bitterness out of watching a championship game that my team isn't playing in.
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby Fried Gold on Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:56 am

TheButcher wrote:From Collider:
Check Out the List of Trailers to Debut During Super Bowl XLV
Jeff Ames wrote:
    * Super 8
    * Transformers: Dark of the Moon
    * Thor
    * Captain America: The First Avenger
    * Cowboys & Aliens
    * Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides
    * Rango
    * Limitless

Jeff Ames wrote:Here is a list of films whose respective studios decided to save a few million and preview footage during the pre-game festivities:

    * Battle: Los Angeles
    * Priest
    * The Eagle
    * Kung Fu Panda 2
    * Take Me Home Tonight
    * Just Go With It
    * Justin Bieber: Never Say Never


I am interested in four of those. The rest I already know will be rubs.
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby TheBaxter on Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:02 am

so sorry wrote:That's a nice lineup right there. Almost takes the bitterness out of watching a championship game that my team isn't playing in.


hey, you left off Justin Bieber! you KNOW that's the ad you'll really be watching for...
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby King Psyz on Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:35 pm

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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby Peven on Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:48 pm

Bears vs Jets would be a hell of a defensive game, could end up having less than 20 total points scored... i could see that game ending up with only defensive TD's scored...


...on topic: I wonder how long these spots will be, considering how expensive time is for Super Bowl advertising...
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby Ribbons on Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:35 pm

So the Super Bowl is this weekend, which can mean only one thing: Super Bowl commercials.

30-second movie trailers, Miller Lite commercials about how g@y you are if you don't like Miller Lite, and some stupid talking babies -- you are sure to see all these things. But hopefully there's some funny stuff in there as well, and this is the place to talk about it.
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby The Garbage Man on Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:34 pm

Don't forget the requisite Go Daddy commercial, wherein the only thing skimpier than the female's outfit will be the thread connecting the commercial's premise to the actual service of web hosting.
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby so sorry on Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:50 pm



Awe.Some.
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby Ribbons on Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:10 pm

so sorry wrote:

Awe.Some.


IPAMPILASH!

Okay, we're off to a good start.
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby Peven on Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:44 pm

Ribbons wrote:
so sorry wrote:

Awe.Some.


IPAMPILASH!

Okay, we're off to a good start.



wtf, let VW use a German movie to sell their cars, dammit......
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby minstrel on Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:58 pm

Peven wrote:wtf, let VW use a German movie to sell their cars, dammit......


Wow. Feeling extra sourpussy today, eh, Pev?

They're trying to sell cars to Americans. It's a Super Bowl commercial. Let 'em use an American movie.
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby Peven on Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:07 pm

minstrel wrote:
Peven wrote:wtf, let VW use a German movie to sell their cars, dammit......


Wow. Feeling extra sourpussy today, eh, Pev?

They're trying to sell cars to Americans. It's a Super Bowl commercial. Let 'em use an American movie.



i hate sourpussy...makes me pucker too much :lol:



and fyi, i am not as dead serious grumpy as some of you seem to think...my post was only 25% genuinely irritated and 75% smartass-based :wink:

but that is ok, it is understandable that foreign car companies use American movies to sell their products...since our movies are so much better than theirs :-P
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby The Vicar on Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:32 pm

minstrel wrote:
Peven wrote:wtf, let VW use a German movie to sell their cars, dammit......


Wow. Feeling extra sourpussy today, eh, Pev?

They're trying to sell cars to Americans. It's a Super Bowl commercial. Let 'em use an American movie.


I don't think Das Boot will have the same impact.
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby TheButcher on Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:12 am

Limitless - Super Bowl Spot
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby papalazeru on Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:34 am

Fried Gold wrote:I am interested in four of those. The rest I already know will be rubs.


...so Justin Beiber and what are your other 3?
Papa: The musical!

Padders: "Not very classy! Not very classy at all!"
So Sorry "I'll give you a word to describe it: classless."
Cptn Kirks 2pay: ".....utterly unclassy....."
DennisMM: "...Decidedly unclassy..."
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby TheBaxter on Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:14 pm

Peven wrote:
Ribbons wrote:
so sorry wrote:

Awe.Some.


IPAMPILASH!

Okay, we're off to a good start.



wtf, let VW use a German movie to sell their cars, dammit......


but the empire was modeled after the Nazis, so it makes sense.
especially if you're trying forge that nazi-car connection that buyers really crave.
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:36 pm

I don't get the point of the advert. What is it trying to say about the Passat? That's it's weak to a kid in a gimp mask?

Sigh. It really makes me sick when people or products just use Star Wars as a novelty item with no real point to help promote themselves. Heh, look at me, I'm wearing a Star Wars outfit.

Oh. Idiot.

Glad I don't get the Superbowl over in the UK. Oh. I did. Last night. With 2 morons from the other side of the pond. Idiots.
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby so sorry on Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:43 pm

Ribbons wrote:
so sorry wrote:

Awe.Some.


IPAMPILASH!

Okay, we're off to a good start.



So it turns out that was the best of the bunch really (IMO of course). The doritos ads sucked, waaaaay to many car commercials (and don't get me started on that "Come to Detroit, we're awesome" crysler ad), I can't even remember any of the beer ones anymore. And that Tibet one with the food coupons? Wow that was borderline tasteless.

And fuck GoDaddy and their stupid "sexy" ads.
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby TheBaxter on Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:56 pm

yeah, all the ads pretty much sucked. the vader one was the best, and even that one was edited down for the SB so it wasn't as good.
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby Peven on Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:39 pm

you guys are wrong.




the Carmax commercial was clearly the best....."I feel like a hippie in a drum circle"
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby Fievel on Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:32 am

so sorry wrote:and don't get me started on that "Come to Detroit, we're awesome" crysler ad


No, please, start.
I am intrigued by your vague dissension here.
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby so sorry on Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:54 am

Fievel wrote:
so sorry wrote:and don't get me started on that "Come to Detroit, we're awesome" crysler ad


No, please, start.
I am intrigued by your vague dissension here.


Well for one thing it looked like an ad placed by the Detroit Chamber of Commerce/Tourism, with a car commercial tacked on at the end.
For second, it featured "tough guy" Eminem with his typical scowling-for-no-good-reason charm, daring me not to buy a Chrysler.
And C, my hard earned taxes helped fund this commercial, so it generally made me grumpy!
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby Fievel on Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:46 pm

so sorry wrote:
Fievel wrote:
so sorry wrote:and don't get me started on that "Come to Detroit, we're awesome" crysler ad


No, please, start.
I am intrigued by your vague dissension here.


Well for one thing it looked like an ad placed by the Detroit Chamber of Commerce/Tourism, with a car commercial tacked on at the end.
For second, it featured "tough guy" Eminem with his typical scowling-for-no-good-reason charm, daring me not to buy a Chrysler.
And C, my hard earned taxes helped fund this commercial, so it generally made me grumpy!


Yeah, it was a commercial for Detroit more than Chrysler, and that's why it was a successful commercial. The same thing could be said about BP's commercials for the Gulf-area that their oil destroyed - commercials for the associated area rather than the actual product. I really wish that GM & Ford would have ponied up and joined them in this commercial, if no other reason than who actually buys Chryslers? But as far as the overall message is concerned, it needed to happen. Chrysler was just the wrong vehicle (pun intended) for it. Every depiction of Detroit in the past few years has made it out to be a desolate wasteland devoid of anything of worth - see 20/20, 60 Minutes, ad other news programs that may or may not have numbers in their title, and now Detroit 1-8-7 (more numbers!!). Yes, what is shown in those programs does exist, but it's not the whole Detroit, and that's what this commercial showed.

Eminem was just angry you didn't like the commercial. Better him driving angry than Kid Rock or Iggy Pop. Much better than Stevie Wonder. As much as the commercial's message was to show some good things about Detroit, it also sent out a clear "Fuck you!" to everyone that has written the city off as being a dead, worthless dump, as well as a special "Fuck You!" to NYC. I'm not an Eminem fan, but I dug him in this role.

I don't care how they spend their bailout money, I'm just upset that Chrysler was given any money in the first place. Traditionally sub-par product should have been allowed to die. I kind of feel the same way about GM, but they have since paid all of their bailout back and are reporting record profits again. Chrysler's still floundering and I'd be surprised if they're still around in ten years. So I get this point.
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby The Garbage Man on Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:00 pm

so sorry wrote:
Fievel wrote:
so sorry wrote:and don't get me started on that "Come to Detroit, we're awesome" crysler ad


No, please, start.
I am intrigued by your vague dissension here.


Well for one thing it looked like an ad placed by the Detroit Chamber of Commerce/Tourism, with a car commercial tacked on at the end.
For second, it featured "tough guy" Eminem with his typical scowling-for-no-good-reason charm, daring me not to buy a Chrysler.
And C, my hard earned taxes helped fund this commercial, so it generally made me grumpy!


Not to mention, "tough guy" Eminem whom we're supposed to be intimidated by/take seriously appeared not terribly long after "silly claymation caricature hocking canned tea" Eminem.
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby Wiccan Woman on Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:12 pm

Fievel wrote:
so sorry wrote:
Fievel wrote:
so sorry wrote:and don't get me started on that "Come to Detroit, we're awesome" crysler ad


I don't care how they spend their bailout money, I'm just upset that Chrysler was given any money in the first place. Traditionally sub-par product should have been allowed to die. I kind of feel the same way about GM, but they have since paid all of their bailout back and are reporting record profits again. Chrysler's still floundering and I'd be surprised if they're still around in ten years. So I get this point.


Chrysler also owns Jeep and I would NOT call Jeep a sub-par product. My old Cherokee gave max performance with minimal care. Drive a Honda Accord around in the snow/ice we've had for one winter and see how it *doesn't* handle the roads. I'm going back to a vehicle built for ALL the terrains & ALL of the weather of Michigan - and not one of those namby-pamby Grand Cherokees. I want a rock-climber and trailrider. Anybody scoped out the Jeep Liberty? I'm seriously looking at her....
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby Ribbons on Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:41 pm



Also I know some people found it creepy, but I kind of liked this one:

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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby Fievel on Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:26 pm

Wiccan Woman wrote:
Fievel wrote:
so sorry wrote:
Fievel wrote:
so sorry wrote:and don't get me started on that "Come to Detroit, we're awesome" crysler ad


I don't care how they spend their bailout money, I'm just upset that Chrysler was given any money in the first place. Traditionally sub-par product should have been allowed to die. I kind of feel the same way about GM, but they have since paid all of their bailout back and are reporting record profits again. Chrysler's still floundering and I'd be surprised if they're still around in ten years. So I get this point.


Chrysler also owns Jeep and I would NOT call Jeep a sub-par product. My old Cherokee gave max performance with minimal care. Drive a Honda Accord around in the snow/ice we've had for one winter and see how it *doesn't* handle the roads. I'm going back to a vehicle built for ALL the terrains & ALL of the weather of Michigan - and not one of those namby-pamby Grand Cherokees. I want a rock-climber and trailrider. Anybody scoped out the Jeep Liberty? I'm seriously looking at her....


My brother in-law is on his second Jeep Liberty, and that's after going through two engines on the first. When asked why he went with the same vehicle after having two engines crap out on the first one he replied "Because I like it." Sounds like Battered Spouse Syndrome to me. Two major malfunctions/overhauls are nature's way of saying DO NOT DRIVE. Hate to harshen your Jeep buzz WW, but check out reliability reviews (Consumer Reports, Edmunds, JD Power). Jeep does not rate well. Of course, a positive experience and an above-average vehicle can happen, so ultimately it's up to you (and the luck of the car). I just tend to over-analyze/research cars before dropping a cent. I'm currently searching for a...... (kill me now).... minivan. Looking like a Toyota or Honda for me there.
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby minstrel on Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:42 pm

When I was still living in Toronto, my Mom moved to Salt Spring Island in British Columbia. It's a very hilly island that gets a bit snowy and icy in the winter. She bought a Subaru, and they're all four-wheel-drive. I drove that car up steep winter hills covered with snow and ice for years (after I moved to BC and visited Mom a lot), and found it a wonderful car for dealing with bad weather conditions.

I vote for Subaru. If I had my druthers, I'd be driving one now. But this is SoCal, and we don't need 4WD here, so a Nissan Altima is good enough.
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby Peven on Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:53 pm

minstrel wrote:When I was still living in Toronto, my Mom moved to Salt Spring Island in British Columbia. It's a very hilly island that gets a bit snowy and icy in the winter. She bought a Subaru, and they're all four-wheel-drive. I drove that car up steep winter hills covered with snow and ice for years (after I moved to BC and visited Mom a lot), and found it a wonderful car for dealing with bad weather conditions.

I vote for Subaru. If I had my druthers, I'd be driving one now. But this is SoCal, and we don't need 4WD here, so a Nissan Altima is good enough.


Suburus are great for snow and other inclement weather in regard to traction and handling......but they are lousy in terms of cabin noise and ergonomics in general
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby minstrel on Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:15 am

Peven wrote:
minstrel wrote:When I was still living in Toronto, my Mom moved to Salt Spring Island in British Columbia. It's a very hilly island that gets a bit snowy and icy in the winter. She bought a Subaru, and they're all four-wheel-drive. I drove that car up steep winter hills covered with snow and ice for years (after I moved to BC and visited Mom a lot), and found it a wonderful car for dealing with bad weather conditions.

I vote for Subaru. If I had my druthers, I'd be driving one now. But this is SoCal, and we don't need 4WD here, so a Nissan Altima is good enough.


Suburus are great for snow and other inclement weather in regard to traction and handling......but they are lousy in terms of cabin noise and ergonomics in general


I liked the ergonomics. I'm fine with a Subaru. Wish I had one now.
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby Nachokoolaid on Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:28 am

The best Superbowl commercials (based on the laughter of our party crowd) were:

1. The Doritos, bringing grandpa back to life. Holy crap, we laughed for about 3 minutes. It got a huge pop. Pretty funny stuff.

2. The Darth Vader car commercial. Got a big laugh, but had heart too. It's not about what it says about the car. It's about showing how this father can make his son feel like he's the the king of the world. He's all powerful. He is Vader. We all want to feel that way, and any parent would want to help their kids feel that way.

3. The "How much stuff can I cram in the boot" one. We laughed and couldn't believe that passed the censors. I mean, it was blatant simulated ass fucking in front of 162 million people.

And the teacher in me loves the use of 1984 in anything, but haven't they figured out that it doesn't exactly work on Superbowl Sunday?
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby Wiccan Woman on Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:45 pm

Fievel wrote:
Wiccan Woman wrote:
Fievel wrote:
so sorry wrote:
Fievel wrote:
so sorry wrote:and don't get me started on that "Come to Detroit, we're awesome" crysler ad


I don't care how they spend their bailout money, I'm just upset that Chrysler was given any money in the first place. Traditionally sub-par product should have been allowed to die. I kind of feel the same way about GM, but they have since paid all of their bailout back and are reporting record profits again. Chrysler's still floundering and I'd be surprised if they're still around in ten years. So I get this point.


Chrysler also owns Jeep and I would NOT call Jeep a sub-par product. My old Cherokee gave max performance with minimal care. Drive a Honda Accord around in the snow/ice we've had for one winter and see how it *doesn't* handle the roads. I'm going back to a vehicle built for ALL the terrains & ALL of the weather of Michigan - and not one of those namby-pamby Grand Cherokees. I want a rock-climber and trailrider. Anybody scoped out the Jeep Liberty? I'm seriously looking at her....


My brother in-law is on his second Jeep Liberty, and that's after going through two engines on the first. When asked why he went with the same vehicle after having two engines crap out on the first one he replied "Because I like it." Sounds like Battered Spouse Syndrome to me. Two major malfunctions/overhauls are nature's way of saying DO NOT DRIVE. Hate to harshen your Jeep buzz WW, but check out reliability reviews (Consumer Reports, Edmunds, JD Power). Jeep does not rate well. Of course, a positive experience and an above-average vehicle can happen, so ultimately it's up to you (and the luck of the car). I just tend to over-analyze/research cars before dropping a cent. I'm currently searching for a...... (kill me now).... minivan. Looking like a Toyota or Honda for me there.


I've had good experiences, then...but also ordered directly from the factory. I prefer a manual transmission, a modified rollbar (knocking out the rear doors, which I don't need), and a bigger engine than the standard models. Maybe that's why I've had the better experiences.
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Re: Super Bowl Commercials

Postby The Vicar on Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:57 pm

I thought the crop of SB ads this year were pretty weak and easily forgettable.
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