The Zone's Quest to Find the Greatest Director (CAGLE)

Which director made the best films, made the best visuals, or smelled the best? This is the forum to find out.

Postby MasterWhedon on Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:53 pm

Theta wrote:
MasterWhedon wrote:You are all insane.


That'd have more weight if you had any taste (no, I am NEVER going to stop holding your love of "Crash" against you. :twisted: )

That's fine, that's fine...

Except that--Oh, where'd your post go?
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Postby thomasgaffney on Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:04 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:
Theta wrote:
MasterWhedon wrote:You are all insane.


That'd have more weight if you had any taste (no, I am NEVER going to stop holding your love of "Crash" against you. :twisted: )

That's fine, that's fine...

Except that--Oh, where'd your post go?


RECKLESSABUSEOFPOWERILASH!!
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Postby tapehead on Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:10 pm

Fritz Lang - master of German Expressionism and later Film Noir who made horror (Dr Mabuse) and sci fi (Metropolis) and amazing human drama (M). Watch M and you'll see a lot of innovative camera techniques that Welles was praised for ten years later when he made Citzen Kane - I'm not saying Welles 'borrowed' Lang's ideasm but rather that Lang was hugely influential. He is the man.

hope he makes the final 20
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Postby Leckomaniac on Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:11 pm

Alright thats another one for Lang!!!
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Postby The Vicar on Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:12 pm

RECKLESSABUSEOFPOWERILASH!! ?????

What is the Zone coming to?
.
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Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:02 pm

This list isn't bad actually. I think they're are intelligent choices here. I was about ot congragulate you JL, for not putting Quentin Tarantino and Peter Jackson up here, and was considering that Peter Weir should NOT be mentioned in this list after all, but on another check I find that PJ IS here, and being considered along greats like Hitchcock and Welles I think that Peter Weir should be included too.

Number 1, Peter Jackson so far hasn't really lifted much more than a finger to be put up here with these all time greats who have a huge catelogue of movies, (Kong showed some shortcomings as a storyteller too), and that Peter Weir has demonstrated time and time again that his best work by a long shot may well be way ahead of him, but stuff like Picnic at Hanging Rock, Gallipoli, Witness, Mosquito Coast, Master and Commander and Dead Poet's Society have demonstrated brilliant tightness and concentration in his Directing and in getting to the bottom of a character's inner goings on, whilst M&C was also technically almost perfect, and that ain't easy for any movie set at sea, which are normally logistical practical nightmares. Mostly though he's so more sophisticated than so many other film makers in exploring human nature.

George Lucas. Movie CREATOR maybe. Actor's director he definitely AIN'T. So I wouldn't include him.
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Postby Brit Pop on Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:03 pm

Spielberg - may be populist, but DAMN - Raiders is the shizzah.
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Postby Theta on Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:25 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:
Theta wrote:
MasterWhedon wrote:You are all insane.


That'd have more weight if you had any taste (no, I am NEVER going to stop holding your love of "Crash" against you. :twisted: )

That's fine, that's fine...

Except that--Oh, where'd your post go?


The same place your standards went. :D
Last edited by Theta on Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby WinslowLeach on Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:25 pm

What makes someone the BEST Director of All Time? I think its a combination of things. Its about integrity, consistency, technical expertise, storytelling ability, adaptation, influence. Now alot of the guys on the list are great in a few areas, but not all of them. You gotta look over the ones you think are kickass for one or 2 great films and get to the nitty gritty. Who REALLY is the best of the best?
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Postby MasterWhedon on Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:15 pm

WinslowLeach wrote:What makes someone the BEST Director of All Time? I think its a combination of things. Its about integrity, consistency, technical expertise, storytelling ability, adaptation, influence. Now alot of the guys on the list are great in a few areas, but not all of them. You gotta look over the ones you think are kickass for one or 2 great films and get to the nitty gritty. Who REALLY is the best of the best?

Spielbergo, Spielbergo, Spielbergo...
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Postby MasterWhedon on Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:16 pm

Theta wrote:
MasterWhedon wrote:
Theta wrote:
MasterWhedon wrote:You are all insane.


That'd have more weight if you had any taste (no, I am NEVER going to stop holding your love of "Crash" against you. :twisted: )

That's fine, that's fine...

Except that--Oh, where'd your post go?


The same place your standards went. :D

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WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!

STOP REPLACING MY WORDS!!

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!
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Postby The Ginger Man on Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:18 pm

Where's the love for Orson Welles????
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Postby Leckomaniac on Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:21 pm

Agreed...Ridley Scott...as Greatest Director????

No way.
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Postby thomasgaffney on Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:21 pm

The Ginger Man wrote:Where's the love for Orson Welles????


Maybe the Welles' love fell into the same Bizarro Universe that crapped out two votes for Ridley Scott.....
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Postby MasterWhedon on Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:23 pm

thomasgaffney wrote:
The Ginger Man wrote:Where's the love for Orson Welles????


Maybe the Welles' love fell into the same Bizarro Universe that crapped out two votes for Ridley Scott.....

HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!
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Postby Theta on Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:46 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:
Theta wrote:
MasterWhedon wrote:
Theta wrote:
MasterWhedon wrote:You are all insane.


That'd have more weight if you had any taste (no, I am NEVER going to stop holding your love of "Crash" against you. :twisted: )

That's fine, that's fine...

Except that--Oh, where'd your post go?


The same place your standards went. :D

Image

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!

STOP REPLACING MY WORDS!!

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!


Well, there's no way I can argue with that rock-solid line of reasoning, so GUTTENPACKAGE!
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Postby Theta on Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:48 pm

thomasgaffney wrote:
The Ginger Man wrote:Where's the love for Orson Welles????


Maybe the Welles' love fell into the same Bizarro Universe that crapped out two votes for Ridley Scott.....


Both fans of "G.I. Jane" weighed in.
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Postby John-Locke on Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:51 pm

My Vote goes to the demented one

This man obsessed over, lived, breathed, ate, slept, is, was and always will be PURE CINEMA.

His films have as much artistic merit as any of the master painters and any other Directors best work you can think of, the pictures are as beautiful as you could possibly hope for, one of them (Barry Lyndon) is as close to a work on canvas as celluloid can get (or has got possibly). His use of music is always perfectly timed and powerful. He had a keen sense of humour that still feels as relevant today as it did at the time. His Genre work actually redefined the genres he was working with (2001, The Shining and Full Metal Jacket for which the repercussions took longer to germinate I feel) and he was also resonably successful with mainstream audiences as he managed to capture the humanity, fears, demons, brutality and thoughts of almost every man and woman who watched his films.

I could go on about his political and social commentaries that still inspire and intrigue to this day but he's already had his own thread and you know you love him too.

Ladies and Gentlemen, The One, The Only, The Master

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STANLEY KUBRICK

I thank you.
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Postby Theta on Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:03 pm

John-Locke wrote:STANLEY KUBRICK


I disagree.

Kubrick was a great visualist, but he's also distant and cold. The resulting films can be alienating or, worse, uninvolving. "Lolita" is only worth watching for Peter Sellers. "Eyes Wide Shut" is a movie about sex that's frigid. "The Shining" is not only not scary, it backfires horribly: I want the Overlook to paste that family.

Personally, I think Luis Bunuel is the best. I'm not the biggest fan of "Belle Du Jour", but everything else? Gold.
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Postby Theta on Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:04 pm

Somewhere, there really is a kaiju porno. I think it's a short, and was done as a joke, but it's out there.
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Postby The Ginger Man on Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:06 pm

thomasgaffney wrote:
The Ginger Man wrote:Where's the love for Orson Welles????


Maybe the Welles' love fell into the same Bizarro Universe that crapped out two votes for Ridley Scott.....


So if Bizarro Ridley Scott is the greatest director ever....then what does Bizarro Orson Welles do? I'd like to think he created a brand new genre combining The Mighty Morphin Power Rangers and Porn.

EDIT: Then again, if he created these two things....that would also make him the creator of Japan. And creating Japan is a pretty big accomplishment for a director. Therefore making him, still, the best.
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Postby John-Locke on Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:16 pm

EWS is not about sex, it's about thinking you are in control of a situation and realising how horribly mistaken you usually are and how once you've opened up the doors things will never be the same again.

The Shining not Scary huh? Then why is it almost always at the very top of the Scariest Films ever made lists? Have you had children? Whats more scary than your Dad going batshit crazy and trying to kill you with an axe? The thought that you might go crazy and kill your own family with an Axe, thats what.

Are Spartacus and Paths of Glory cold? I'd argue they show the small triumph of free will against cold hearted people with evil goals. The fact his films usually have a sting in the tail and end with the worst outcome is further testamant to his vision that we are a planet spiraling out of control (was he wrong?)

In the battle of Good vs Evil, it's the greedy and dispicable that usually end up on top. Hilarious and true at the same time. If Kubrick's films are cold it's because the hearts of many men are just as frost bitten, he's only telling the truth rather than painting an unrealistic picture in the delusion of creating wasted hope.
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Postby thomasgaffney on Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:00 pm

Theta wrote:
thomasgaffney wrote:
The Ginger Man wrote:Where's the love for Orson Welles????


Maybe the Welles' love fell into the same Bizarro Universe that crapped out two votes for Ridley Scott.....


Both fans of "G.I. Jane" weighed in.


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Postby unikrunk on Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:05 pm

Just a quick reality check; Joss Whedon < Ridley Scott.

/that is all
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Postby Theta on Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:09 pm

John-Locke wrote:In the battle of Good vs Evil, it's the greedy and dispicable that usually end up on top. Hilarious and true at the same time. If Kubrick's films are cold it's because the hearts of many men are just as frost bitten, he's only telling the truth rather than painting an unrealistic picture in the delusion of creating wasted hope.


Well, I'll take it point by point. Overall, I'd note Luis Bunuel had much of the same concerns and arguably an even bleaker view of humanity...but his movies, quite honestly, ring much truer to me and are a lot more interesting.


"The Shining" I feel doesn't work because Kubrick can't generate sympathy for anyone in the goddamn movie. You're right about the engine Stephen King used to create the horror of the book (which is very scary and arguably the best book King has ever written), but I just don't care about these characters, especially the wife as portrayed by Shelley Winters. To be fair, "The Shining" is very much an internal book and might very well be unadaptable...certainly King's attempt was no better. Still, one cannot underestimate the power of hype. I've seen the damn thing three times and honestly, the only reaction it's ever gotten has been laughter (I had to attend a theatrical screening and that's all people did for two solid hours.)


"Paths of Glory" is a film that takes two hours to make a point that could have been made in five minutes. It's beautiful to look at but it's ungodly boring and makes its points with absolutely zero subtlety.


"Spartacus" is a pretty typical Roman epic of the time: better shot, perhaps, but it's still a movie very concerned with paegentry. I will cut "Spartacus" SOME slack because it was truly not a film designed for any home theater system, but its reputation, much like Kubrick's, doesn't have as solid a foundation as you seem to think. The DVD Journal has an interesting review of it here: http://www.dvdjournal.com/reviews/s/spartacus_cc.s html


"Eyes Wide Shut": What do you think sex is, if not a situation where control is lost? The problem with the movie is that Kubrick goes out of his way to defang the narrative and, again, I don't care about these people. Also, I really have to say, that is the most mechanical, passionless and dull sex ever put on the screen. You have to wonder why these people are standing around looking at it. The fact that that was the primary question on my mind during that scene is probably the most damning thing I can say about the film.


Look, Kubrick has flaws. None of the messages he wants to communicate are particularly subtle, and they certainly aren't communicated with any degree of subtlety. He doesn't have the greatest story sense and doesn't seem to have any interest in storytelling, which is a serious problem since that's half of the film right there. Because of his control freak nature, he beat his actors into submission instead of letting them contribute to the work, resulting in a lot of mannered as opposed to natural performances (compare Nicholson in "The Shining" to his previous work: I'm not sure I entirely disagree with those who say Kubrick ruined Nicholson as an actor.)

I'm not saying he's a bad director and he has made at least two classic films: "Dr. Strangelove" and "A Clockwork Orange." I AM saying that his reputation is built mostly on his reputation and frankly has remained unquestioned for far too long (I feel the same way about Hitchcock: time has, unfortunately, worn on a few of his films.) We should go back to ALL we consider the great directors and reappraise their work periodically; some films don't age well, some come into their time, and sometimes we find our appreciation of them as a culture has changed.
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Postby thomasgaffney on Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:10 pm

unikrunk wrote:Just a quick reality check; Joss Whedon < Ridley Scott.

/that is all


Yeah, but Joss Whedon obviously didn't make this list and get two inexplicable votes.....
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Postby MasterWhedon on Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:10 pm

unikrunk wrote:Just a quick reality check; Joss Whedon < Ridley Scott.

/that is all

That's totally, like, your opinion, man.

And also not at all what's being discussed.
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Postby John-Locke on Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:16 pm

Theta wrote:"The Shining" I feel doesn't work because Kubrick can't generate sympathy for anyone in the goddamn movie. You're right about the engine Stephen King used to create the horror of the book (which is very scary and arguably the best book King has ever written), but I just don't care about these characters, especially the wife as portrayed by Shelley Winters.


:shock:
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Postby Leckomaniac on Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:17 pm

while I respect your opinion Theta...I disagree.

Dr. Strangelove, The Shining, Clockwork Orange and 2001: A Space Odyssey are classics.

Spartacus, The Killing, Lolita and Paths of Glory are GREAT movies...just not classics.

There are only a handful of directors that can match what he accomplished...and Ridley Scott is not one of them.
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Postby MasterWhedon on Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:19 pm

John-Locke wrote:
Theta wrote:"The Shining" I feel doesn't work because Kubrick can't generate sympathy for anyone in the goddamn movie. You're right about the engine Stephen King used to create the horror of the book (which is very scary and arguably the best book King has ever written), but I just don't care about these characters, especially the wife as portrayed by Shelley Winters.


:shock:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

SHOOTSHIMSELFINTHEFOOTILASH!!!



Hint: Theta, the only appropriate response is " :oops: " Do not try for a "you know what I meant."
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Postby John-Locke on Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:25 pm

Leckomaniac wrote:while I respect your opinion Theta...I disagree.

Dr. Strangelove, The Shining, Clockwork Orange and 2001: A Space Odyssey are classics.

Spartacus, The Killing, Lolita and Paths of Glory are GREAT movies...just not classics.

There are only a handful of directors that can match what he accomplished...and Ridley Scott is not one of them.


What so Barry Lyndon and Full Metal Jacket are neither Classics or greats?

I'd call Them both unappreciated/overlooked classics although I'd agree with anyone that the first half of FMJ is much better than the later half of the story.
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Postby ZombieZoneSolutions on Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:31 pm

KUBRICK is the alpha and omega of the cinematic artform.

Comparing KUBRICK to Ridley Scott is like comparing GOD
to plankton.

(Not that plankton isn't interesting in its own way.)

Nothing more needs to be said on the subject.
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Postby Leckomaniac on Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:36 pm

I didn't mean to leave those film out JL...I was just trying to discuss the arguments made by Theta...but in retrospect I guess I did throw 2001 in there when Theta did not mention it.

But I will totally agree that Kubrick was a genius and that Full Metal Jacket and Barry Lyndon could qualify as classics.

And Zombie...my Ridley Scott joke was in response to the two votes he recieved...I mean Scott as greatest director??? I think not.
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Postby Leckomaniac on Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:39 pm

i believe you predicted it would be a landslide...and it is nowhere near that.

Spielberg and Kubrick are only up by one vote.

I am surprised that Kurosawa only has 1 vote...maybe its because Seppuku hasn't been around for a while.
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Postby MasterWhedon on Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:40 pm

If we look up at the poll, I do believe we have a tie for first right now between Kubrick and Spielbergo. Who called it?

* points to self and Locke *
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Postby thomasgaffney on Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:44 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:If we look up at the poll, I do believe we have a tie for first right now between Kubrick and Spielbergo. Who called it?

* points to self and Locke *


Time to check for a scoring update, MW. Don't count out my boy, Hitch, yet.....
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Postby MasterWhedon on Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:46 pm

thomasgaffney wrote:
MasterWhedon wrote:I f we look up at the poll, I do believe we have a tie for first right now between Kubrick and Spielbergo. Who called it?

* points to self and Locke *


Time to check for a scoring update, MW. Don't count out my boy, Hitch, yet.....

I'd never count him out. I put him up there right next to, I don't know, Ridley Scott as the dark horse in this race.
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Postby ZombieZoneSolutions on Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:50 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:If we look up at the poll, I do believe we have a tie for first right now between Kubrick and Spielbergo.


Funny, huh? They were really good friends too. They're
respective aesthetic and worldview couldn't possibly be
more different, but theres a sort of poetic logic to their
friendship, methinks...

(I think I'm the only person in the universe who loved A.I.)

If theres one thing I disagree with Kubrick on its Star Wars.
Its well documented that he loathed it.
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Postby John-Locke on Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:52 pm

Couldn't help myself

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Postby ZombieZoneSolutions on Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:54 pm

^ILOLITASHININGILASH!!!

beeyootiful, JL, just beeyooteeful!
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Postby MasterWhedon on Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:03 pm

ZombieZoneSolutions wrote:
MasterWhedon wrote:If we look up at the poll, I do believe we have a tie for first right now between Kubrick and Spielbergo.


Funny, huh? They were really good friends too. They're
respective aesthetic and worldview couldn't possibly be
more different, but theres a sort of poetic logic to their
friendship, methinks...

(I think I'm the only person in the universe who loved A.I.)

If theres one thing I disagree with Kubrick on its Star Wars.
Its well documented that he loathed it.

No, Zombie, I too love AI. I needed a full TalkBack to help me fully understand it, but I very much connected to it.

And you're absolutely right about the two worldviews, which is why I respect Stanley Kubrick's work immensely but I LOVE Spielberg's stuff on a whole different level. Call it simplistic, popcorn, escapist, whatever, Spielberg tells his stories in a style I adore, and he hits every beat necessary to move me in a lasting way.

Personally, I will always look to film for a base level of enjoyment, and Spielberg has provided me with leaps and bounds more moments of head-spinning entertainment than any other filmmaker. Perhaps he's not "the best," but he's most definitely my favorite.
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Postby Brocktune on Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:10 pm

Theta wrote: "Lolita" is only worth watching for Peter Sellers.


uh, you must have been watching it in spanish or something. thats the worst assessment of quality ive seen since i read a review of Mr. Bungle's "Disco Volante" in which the "critic" called mike patton a "lesser anthony kiedis"

either that or perhaps you are confusing peter sellers with jeremy irons. in which case i would still disagree, as the scorching dominique swain is the best thing about lyne's snoozefest.

ZombieZoneSolutions wrote:KUBRICK is the alpha and omega of the cinematic artform.

Comparing KUBRICK to Ridley Scott is like comparing GOD
to plankton.

(Not that plankton isn't interesting in its own way.)

Nothing more needs to be said on the subject.


once again, and for the millionth time, thanks dude.
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Postby John-Locke on Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:14 pm

Spielberg is a fanfuckingtastic director, Munich was such a cinematic achievement in my opinion, Kubrick would be proud of that one. Ditto the first half of WOTW. The Terminal I'm not so sure about.
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Postby Brocktune on Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:20 pm

John-Locke wrote:Spielberg is a fanfuckingtastic director, Munich was such a cinematic achievement in my opinion, Kubrick would be proud of that one. Ditto the first half of WOTW. The Terminal I'm not so sure about.


ive always found senor spielbergo to be hit and miss. the color purple, schindler's list, ET, raiders, jaws, empire of the sun, are all classics. hands down classics. but then, you have jurassic park, saving private ryan, the terminal etc, that (imo, of course) are garbage. the man has done some great work, but could never be the "best"
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Postby The Ginger Man on Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:25 pm

I'm not understanding this support for Spielberg. The man is great, no doubt. But the greatest? He may be the best commercial film director to ever live....but the greatest of all? Should we factor in how their work has affected the art form (hints of my support for Orson Welles)?
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Postby MasterWhedon on Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:29 pm

Brocktune wrote:but then, you have jurassic park, saving private ryan, the terminal etc, that (imo, of course) are garbage.

YOU DON'T LIKE JURASSIC PARK?!!

Spider-Man 2--okay, but JURASSIC PARK?!!
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Postby ZombieZoneSolutions on Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:29 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:And you're absolutely right about the two worldviews, which is why I respect Stanley Kubrick's work immensely but I LOVE Spielberg's stuff on a whole different level. Call it simplistic, popcorn, escapist, whatever, Spielberg tells his stories in a style I adore, and he hits every beat necessary to move me in a lasting way.

Personally, I will always look to film for a base level of enjoyment, and Spielberg has provided me with leaps and bounds more moments of head-spinning entertainment than any other filmmaker. Perhaps he's not "the best," but he's most definitely my favorite.


I absolutely understand what you are saying, MasterWhedon.

For me, KUBRICK is the Master and I LOVE all of his films (some
would say to an obsessive degree), but I enjoy Spielberg's films
very much as well. I mean, the guy made Raiders of the Lost Ark
for chrissakes! It might be genre work, but its masterful genre work.
I think KUBRICK admired Spielberg's work on that level as well. It's
not like making a cracking good adventure story is easy!

I highly reccomend any KUBRICK or Spielberg fan to watch the
Kubrick: A Life In Pictures documentary. Its a fantastic
documentary, and Spielberg has some wonderful insights on the
man and his work. I think its kinda cool that they were so
different, but were such close friends...
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Postby John-Locke on Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:30 pm

The Ginger Man wrote:I'm not understanding this support for Spielberg. The man is great, no doubt. But the greatest? He may be the best commercial film director to ever live....but the greatest of all? Should we factor in how their work has affected the art form (hints of my support for Orson Welles)?


I think it all depends on what your personal definition of what makes Great Cinema is, some just want to be entertained, others may think being extremely influencial to others is enough.

I personally would appreciate it if more people tried selling their choices to the rest of us or at least tell us who they have voted for.
Last edited by John-Locke on Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ZombieZoneSolutions on Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:31 pm

^ Oh yeah, I voted for KUBRICK, natch. In case
it wasn't painfully obvious! :D
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Postby John-Locke on Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:34 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:
Brocktune wrote:but then, you have jurassic park, saving private ryan, the terminal etc, that (imo, of course) are garbage.

YOU DON'T LIKE JURASSIC PARK?!!

Spider-Man 2--okay, but JURASSIC PARK?!!


I was seriously underwhelmed by JP, it looked good but I have never had the urge to buy it or go out of my way to watch it again since the cinema. I'll give him credit for the technical achievements and for making the Raptor stuff extremely tense.
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