The Great East/West Cartoonanimation Debate

Anime, cartoons and 3D. Animated shorts and features. And don't forget the animation genius in Bulgaria.

The Great East/West Cartoonanimation Debate

Postby colonel_lugz on Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:59 am

**This thread was split off from another thread, because it was interesting enough to warrant its own space!**


silentbobafett wrote:BUt if a CARTOON is dubbed perfectly with class and talent. Whats the difference!


Strike 2!

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Postby silentbobafett on Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:04 am

Its a fact dude!

Come on... loose the facade. They are cartoons and if dubbing is carefully done (you do realise dubbing is a proffesion which can, if it decides to, hire talented, cool, filmloving people to do its work) you can have a fucking great experience!

Spirited Away I saw first with subs and loved. Then I heard disney's dubbed track was top class. So that the version I brought. And it is. There is NO DIFFERENCE in watching the film. I enjoy it just the same.

I ain't knocking subs. SOme of the best film sin my colecton have em. I don't weigh up a film on subs or no subs. BUt I'm jsut sayin its easier to dub a cartoon than live action.

And Spirited Away is a fucking CARTOON. Animation/cartoon/drawing/fucking doodle...;-)
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Postby AtomicHyperbole on Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:05 am

silentbobafett wrote:oh it stayed! wow!

That list is awesome! Thanks

Spirited Away dub is perfectl7y fucking fine! Its animation so it ain't like dubbing live action. If its a good dub and not a bullshit celebrity only dub then it can be good. Its annal bullshit if its said otherwise! I'm all up for subs and original recordings. BUt if a CARTOON is dubbed perfectly with class and talent. Whats the difference!

Roll on Ghibli season! :-)


Working in animation, I can tell you that all this talk of a "style" for dubbing animation is actually bullshit stemming from the early low-rent dubs of animé. I have a close friend in the industry who used to know the chaps in America buying Manga, and the truth is they were in it for a quick buck. This quickly turned into a so-called "style" where everyone seems to be stumbling over their words from one person to the next or filling in reams of information and exposition in the translation rather than creating anything meaningful.
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Postby Seppuku on Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:07 am

colonel_lugz wrote:
silentbobafett wrote: BUt if a CARTOON is dubbed perfectly with class and talent. Whats the difference!


Strike 2!

You're on a role today man


I don't know dude, there are some really shit-tastic 80's animès out there that would just be completely unwatchable without the corny dubs.
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Postby colonel_lugz on Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:10 am

Im not having a go at the dubing process at all, in fact I applaud the awesome Disney dub as a lot of hard work went into it.

But when you call somethinf like Spirited Away a CARTOON i feel that it really brings it down to a lower level. It feels like you're comparing it with something I'll see on CBBC this afternoon (yes, I watch it).

I don't want to come off sounding like a pretensious fart but I call Ghibli films actual animated films, they are in a different league. Im making a comment on the quality of the whole piece not just how its drawn/doodled

am I making much sense?
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Postby ThisIsTheGirl on Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:15 am

Makes sense to me man.

(But I'm a pretentious fart)
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Postby silentbobafett on Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:24 am

But it IS a cartoon. Aniumation is just another way of saying it. Its the process to make a cartoon. Animation has, however, become the term to call cartoons that adults view. I.E: I like cartoons but please don't think I'm a kid.

Simpsons - cartoon or animation?

There all fucking cartoons. But I do get your point and its fair enough. But don't loose sight of what its about: the film not the fucking label.

As for AtomicHyperBole: Dubbing anime was shit and all that came with it! I got into Manga, like so many, with those videos! Cos they were never released subbed! So the fact that so many got into it despite the bad dubbing says something!

BUT like all things, when some one comes a long with talent and love they can make something special. So fuck the old in it for a buck company's; I'm talking the real deals here.

Its like the companies that release Night of the Living Dead. So many are poor quality and are just done for a quick buck. But then someone does a speical one cos they are a fan.

IF someone realises that the only way for a wider audience (i.e kids) to see Spirted Away is for it to be dubbed then they should get the best of the best done!

Thats all I mean :-)
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Postby colonel_lugz on Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:30 am

silentbobafett wrote:But it IS a cartoon. Aniumation is just another way of saying it. Its the process to make a cartoon. Animation has, however, become the term to call cartoons that adults view. I.E: I like cartoons but please don't think I'm a kid.

Simpsons - cartoon or animation?

There all fucking cartoons. But I do get your point and its fair enough. But don't loose sight of what its about: the film not the fucking label.


I know it's just a fucking label, you are completely right dude

I just get annoyed when i'm sat watching a Ghibli film, or Akira, or something like that and some ignoramous walks in the room and says in their most dumbest voice "why you watchin a fuckin cart-oon?"

It just makes my blood boil. I know it shouldn't because i'm better but it still does. I feel like sitting them down and making them watchit but then I think "Fuck em they dont deserve this goodness".
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Postby Chilli on Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:35 am

I get that way when people say to me 'Donnie Darko... isn't that a weird, Dumbledore indie film.'

I have to tell them 'It is weird... and there's strange homoerotic subtext between Donnie and Frank, but it's good damnit.'

Not quite the same thing mind.
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Postby AtomicHyperbole on Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:39 am

SBF, look, animation doesn't mean you have to draw cartoons. "Cartoon" was the term used to describe those one-piece political drawings you see in newspapers alongside headlines, and then later used to describe a style of drawing for children. Then it developed to include short animations, like early Disney, Tex Avery stuff... Cartoons tend to parody life, it implies humour - Bugs Bunny is a cartoon. Something like Grave Of The Fireflies, even if it simplifies reality in its drawings, is an animation.

Simpsons = cartoon. It parodies life and stereotypes.

Akira = film animation. It's not a cartoon. It develops a world and presents it with the legitimacy of a live-action film.

Finding Nemo - cartoon film. Humorous characters, despite inhabiting a beautifully drawn world, rendered in a cartoon style.

Appleseed - film animation. Does not imitate any particular real-life source, invents its own world, sticks to film and real-life convention.

Cartoons and animation are two seperate forms of media representation using a hand-drawn or CG form. "Cartoon" is a wide term describing a variety of sources. Don't get confused between the two terms.

People got into animé because the west viewed animation as something for kids, and the Japanese was the alternative. As someone who got into it during the early days in the UK, the early nineties, I can tell you the dubbing fucking appalled me - but I kept watching. Because underneath it, the storytellers - the people driving the plot - weren't treating you as stupid... and the plot wasn't the script, and it wasn't the dubbing.
Last edited by AtomicHyperbole on Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Seppuku on Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:48 am

AtomicHyperbole wrote:BTW although you seem like a reasonably nice fella, putting smileys after swearing like Dennis Hopper doesn't make what you said any nicer. It also doesn't help putting your point across... soz mate, felt it had to be said.


I agree with you, and I can understand with you being a storyboarder Fett's words might have felt like he was shitting on your whole profession, but come on dude, none of these baiting style comments. All he did was say fucking a few times, there wasn't really anything to call out.
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Postby AtomicHyperbole on Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:50 am

OK, fair enough, I read it the wrong way first time. Soz, boba, no harm done... edited out.
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Postby silentbobafett on Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:14 am

That so fucking confused me! Cos I was looking for your post and couldn't find it! Hey dude, no fucking offence taken! We all type how we type, if yah get what I mean!

I didn't even take your post as an offence! Its all jiggy man!

Now go fuck yourself! ha ha! Only joking :-) see I put a smily face! :-) and I'll let ya'll win the cartoon animation thing cos I don't even really care. What thread is this? Is this the DVD one? Oh yeah... so cool dude! But I'm still confused! but I always fucking have been!

Anyway... tiem to travel to my tesco bag by my feet and get out my lunch!

yummmm yummmm!!!

Oh and are you really a storyboard artist... could be handy... word! Mucho respecto and thats why you shouldn't take offence cos I didn't know... hmmmm could be usefull... hmmmmmm

and in my honest fucking opinion. There aren't enough fucking fucks being said in this world anyway! peace out fucks! :-)
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Postby AtomicHyperbole on Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:47 am

IFUCKILASH!

:D
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Postby silentbobafett on Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:54 am

NEWS FUCKING FLASH: Someones birthday at work and they have filled the kitchen with donuts and the like: I have a flapjack bite!

Now whose fucking talking! :-)
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Postby Seppuku on Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:56 am

*sigh. Dude, you can at least pretend to get it right, it's NEWSFLASH FUCKO, not news fucking flash. :x
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Postby ThisIsTheGirl on Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:00 am

AtomicHyperbole wrote:SBF, look, animation doesn't mean you have to draw cartoons. "Cartoon" was the term used to describe those one-piece political drawings you see in newspapers alongside headlines, and then later used to describe a style of drawing for children. Then it developed to include short animations, like early Disney, Tex Avery stuff... Cartoons tend to parody life, it implies humour - Bugs Bunny is a cartoon. Something like Grave Of The Fireflies, even if it simplifies reality in its drawings, is an animation.

Simpsons = cartoon. It parodies life and stereotypes.

Akira = film animation. It's not a cartoon. It develops a world and presents it with the legitimacy of a live-action film.

Finding Nemo - cartoon film. Humorous characters, despite inhabiting a beautifully drawn world, rendered in a cartoon style.

Appleseed - film animation. Does not imitate any particular real-life source, invents its own world, sticks to film and real-life convention.

Cartoons and animation are two seperate forms of media representation using a hand-drawn or CG form. "Cartoon" is a wide term describing a variety of sources. Don't get confused between the two terms.

People got into animé because the west viewed animation as something for kids, and the Japanese was the alternative. As someone who got into it during the early days in the UK, the early nineties, I can tell you the dubbing fucking appalled me - but I kept watching. Because underneath it, the storytellers - the people driving the plot - weren't treating you as stupid... and the plot wasn't the script, and it wasn't the dubbing.


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I reckon many of us UKers had the same first experience of Japanese Animation: Battle of the Planets!! What a fucking awesome show, even though I've been told that it was heavily dumbed down for the western audiences with stuff like that robot who looked like a teddy bear - ugh.

Another thing that occurred to me a couple of weeks ago - did Betty Boop provide the template for the manga style of drawing women?

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Anyway, what's this thread about again? Oh yeah :oops:
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Postby AtomicHyperbole on Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:24 am

Probably, TITG. The grandfather of japanese animation and cartoons, Osamu Tezuka who was the creator of Astro Boy, was highly influenced by American animation. If you seek out his manga, it's even more obvious.

edit - not probably, definitely. :D
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Postby ThisIsTheGirl on Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:33 am

Nice one - I'll be on the lookout. By the by, AstroBoy used to be my nickname for Adam Balm.... :grin:
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Postby AtomicHyperbole on Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:34 am

If you've not seen Tezuka's Metropolis on DVD, do yourself a favour and rent it. Not perfect by any means, but you can't question the artistry.
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Postby ThisIsTheGirl on Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:41 am

My old flatmate always used to bang on about that - it's only a tenner right now.

/ordering now......
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Postby Seppuku on Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:53 am

I dug the hell out of Metropolis too. It's probably one of the sweetest Anime's I've seen by someone not named Miyazaki. Just go in without thinking about the original, and you'll probably enjoy yourself. I think I remember reading some blurb where James Cameron calls it the future of movies or something; I don't know about that, but it's a great hour and a half's entertainment.

EDIT: OK, here's what he actually said:
METROPOLIS is the new milestone in anime. It has beauty, power, mystery, and above all... heart. Images from this film will stay with you forever.
I agree with that down to the letter.
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Postby silentbobafett on Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:08 am

Well there we have it.

And its News Fucking Flash btw

I don't know what neck of the woods your from fucko. But here we do stuff the manly way! YEAAAHHHH! Thats right... thaaats right... ;-) :-) :-) ;-)
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Postby havocSchultz on Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:55 pm

seppukudkurosawa wrote:I dug the hell out of Metropolis too. It's probably one of the sweetest Anime's I've seen by someone not named Miyazaki. Just go in without thinking about the original, and you'll probably enjoy yourself. I think I remember reading some blurb where James Cameron calls it the future of movies or something; I don't know about that, but it's a great hour and a half's entertainment.

EDIT: OK, here's what he actually said:
METROPOLIS is the new milestone in anime. It has beauty, power, mystery, and above all... heart. Images from this film will stay with you forever.
I agree with that down to the letter.


I watched this Cartoonimation a few years ago...And I pretty much have to agree with Cameron, not just because he's the King of the World, but because it was actually really beautiful and enjoyable...
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Postby Al Shut on Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:15 pm

Images from this film will stay with you forever.


Especially in combination with the music.

sings: I can't stop loving you ...
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Postby ZombieZoneSolutions on Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:18 pm

THREADJACK!!!

On the Tezuka tip, yeah, I think its pretty safe to say that Tezuka was
heavily influenced by early Disney animation especially (before it starte
to suck). I always thought of ASTRO BOY as the Japanese MICKEY
MOUSE (but, you know, way cooler). Check it out:

Image Image

Note how similar the art styles:

Image Image

Many years later, Disney repaid Tezuka by totally ripping off KIMBA THE
WHITE LION, dumbing it down for American audiences, and reselling it as
THE LION KING:

THE ORIGINAL -- KIMBA

Image

THE CRAP ASS DISNEY RIPOFF -- LION KING

Image

[/threadjack]
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Postby AtomicHyperbole on Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:43 pm

For more info on the Kimba Lion RIPOFF go here and here. As much as I love Lion King, personally you'd be an idiot not to see how Disney raped someone elses ideas without credit.
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Postby Chilli on Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:21 am

AtomicHyperbole wrote:For more info on the Kimba Lion RIPOFF go here and here. As much as I love Lion King, personally you'd be an idiot not to see how Disney raped someone elses ideas without credit.


Not saying it's right... but most the shite that comes out today directly rips off something else.
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Postby silentbobafett on Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:13 am

I think that Disney's Lion King is a cracking good film! I'll check out that other film and I'm sure, from what you're saying (and you seem to know your stuff!) that it ripped off this film. But I won't see it cos of that, I'll see it cos I think Lion King is so cool that I want to take in as much as I can including its influences! ;-)

Plus one thing people cannot take away from Lion king is that, bearing in mind it came out in Mid 90's, its animation is/was second to none! It is so incredible! The grass shots, especially at night with the stars: wow!

And you know what, sure it's aimed at kids (it is Disney fuckers!) but it ain't the dumbest of dumbed down dumbness that I've ever seen. Its quite enjoyable and good enough characters (bearing in mind we are talking about talking lions and other such animals!)

So there we have it. Everyone has influences. Some become rip off some become homages. What makes the diffrence is how much the fan likes the newer version. Read: anything by Tarantino! Read fan: IT'S AN HOMAGE!!!!

:-)
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Postby AtomicHyperbole on Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:39 am

Chilli wrote:
AtomicHyperbole wrote:For more info on the Kimba Lion RIPOFF go here and here. As much as I love Lion King, personally you'd be an idiot not to see how Disney raped someone elses ideas without credit.


Not saying it's right... but most the shite that comes out today directly rips off something else.


But Disney did it without adknowledging it and made it very hard for Kimba to get a release in the states. There's a difference between being influenced and outright intellectual theft... :)

And yes, I love The Lion King. I didn't know about Kimba until finding out about this, but it's particularly evident in this case that almost the entire movie was lifted from another picture.
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Postby Chilli on Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:42 am

Ah. Well if they blocked it...

Then they committed a shitty and morally dubious act, but it's damn smart for business to make sure your film gets recognised before the film its ripped off.

Not right, but smart.
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Postby AtomicHyperbole on Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:52 am

I agree with you there, but SHAME on the animators... even if they were friggin' great and deserve to be doing more 2D animation now. DAMN YOU EISNER! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!

...

... wait, he's gone already, isn't he... and they're bringing 2D back with Frog Princess... erm...

So, DVD's then?
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Postby ThisIsTheGirl on Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:12 pm

OK - the debate continues!

This Kimba stuff fascinates me, mainly because The Lion King is now a huge multi-million dollar industry, with merchandising a-go-go and even a bloody stage version - while I suspect Kimba doesn't enjoy this level of success.

Are there other examples of Disney doing this? I'm sure I remember hearing that they tried to block the release of Princess Mononoke for some reason (the implication being that they were worried they'd lose money), and they swallowed Pixar whole, which seemed to piss a lot of people off.

Are Disney a bunch of thieves? And, if Tezuka borrowed a lot of his ideas from early US animation, is it fair to even ask that question?

Vent yer spleens below....
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Postby havocSchultz on Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:22 pm

ThisIsTheGirl wrote:OK - the debate continues!

This Kimba stuff fascinates me, mainly because The Lion King is now a huge multi-million dollar industry, with merchandising a-go-go and even a bloody stage version - while I suspect Kimba doesn't enjoy this level of success.

Are there other examples of Disney doing this? I'm sure I remember hearing that they tried to block the release of Princess Mononoke for some reason (the implication being that they were worried they'd lose money), and they swallowed Pixar whole, which seemed to piss a lot of people off.

Are Disney a bunch of thieves? And, if Tezuka borrowed a lot of his ideas from early US animation, is it fair to even ask that question?

Vent yer spleens below....


I don't really have any answers for you - unfortunatly - and I'm not a big Cartoonimation Afficionado like alot of the folks here - but I just wanna say that I never was a huge Disney fan - I mean - even just comparing the "north american" stuff - I never thought it was that brilliantly done - the animation itself was okay - but I think having good animation is only half the pie - if your stories aren't there - what's the point - and - for the most part - alot of seemed to watered down...

I mean - I know they were going for the "wholesome family thing" - but even as a Younglin I was much more drawn to stuff like Looney Toons and the what-not - A little darker and a bit more of an under-lying "edge" to it...I mean - pretty much all the characters were trying to do were either eat each other or fuck each other (Pepe Le Pew, and anybody that saw Bugs dressed as a female bunny) And even though I never really caught on to all of it as a kid - It just seemed to grab hold of me more...

So - unfortunately - Disney is the big name in Cartoonimation - but it shouldn't be the only thing that is "compared" when people look at the stuff from our continent...
Like I said - I'm not really an expert - and I really wish I'd gotten into a lot more of the Japanese stuff at an earlier time (but I'm slowly checking out afew things when I can get around to it and get my hands on it) - but I just wanted to voice my opinion on something animated-related...
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Postby ZombieZoneSolutions on Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:34 pm

I think DISNEY basically ran out of ideas about 40 years ago. During those
40 years, Japanese Anime and Manga was developing and maturing leaps
and bounds beyond anything Disney could ever hope to achieve; to the
point where they finally had to just outright steal ideas, dumb them down,
and rename them.

I'm surprised they haven't ripped off Miyazaki yet; though I do believe they
distribute his work through MIRAMAX?

That being said, I would love to see Disney produce some kind of animated
film for adults; something along the lines of AKIRA, though, hopefully, not
a rip off. They clearly the resources and technology, they just have no
imagination and a complete unwillingness to take chances.
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Postby ThisIsTheGirl on Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:46 pm

ZombieZoneSolutions wrote:That being said, I would love to see Disney produce some kind of animated
film for adults; something along the lines of AKIRA, though, hopefully, not
a rip off. They clearly the resources and technology, they just have no
imagination and a complete unwillingness to take chances.


That would rock my tiny mind! Why haven't they done this yet? Too busy buying the rights to Winnie the Fucking Pooh, no doubt

And Havoc - I always instinctively dislike Disney too - especially Mickey Mouse. Looney Toons was always soooooooo much cooler!
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Postby Al Shut on Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:50 pm

ZombieZoneSolutions wrote:That being said, I would love to see Disney produce some kind of animated
film for adults; something along the lines of AKIRA, though, hopefully, not
a rip off. They clearly the resources and technology, they just have no
imagination and a complete unwillingness to take chances.


I don't think they're unwilling to take a chance, they just don't see adult orientated movies as their business. It's like saying I woluld like Disney to make some cool cars.
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Postby Ribbons on Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:52 pm

ThisIsTheGirl wrote:That would rock my tiny mind! Why haven't they done this yet?


Because they're smart enough to know that they've destroyed the reputation of animation in the West as anything other than a children's medium. With the growing popularity of anime among youths and a couple of experimental films a la A Scanner Darkly, I'm hoping that we'll see a revolution some time in the next generation or two, but it's still going to take a lot to change the paradigm of animation in the West. I know here in the States, "animated film" is practically synonymous with "90-minute thing you can take your kids to so they'll shut up for a couple of hours."
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Postby ThisIsTheGirl on Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:55 pm

Very true Ribbons - but I share your hopes for a revolution in the coming century!
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Postby Chairman Kaga on Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:26 pm

ZombieZoneSolutions wrote:I think DISNEY basically ran out of ideas about 40 years ago. During those
40 years, Japanese Anime and Manga was developing and maturing leaps
and bounds beyond anything Disney could ever hope to achieve; to the
point where they finally had to just outright steal ideas, dumb them down,
and rename them.

I'm surprised they haven't ripped off Miyazaki yet; though I do believe they
distribute his work through MIRAMAX?

That being said, I would love to see Disney produce some kind of animated
film for adults; something along the lines of AKIRA, though, hopefully, not
a rip off. They clearly the resources and technology, they just have no
imagination and a complete unwillingness to take chances.


That seems like a huge oversimplification.

Obviously they nicked Kimba as stated above.... they intended to do it as Kimba until the rights went all squirrelly and they just decided to steal it outright but I would hardly say they ran out of ideas in 1966 or that they have stolen and dumbed down ideas from anime over and over again (I have no idea why you would compare Manga work to Disney films. I mean admittedly Disney comics are pretty mediocre). Aside from Kimba what else have they supposedly stolen from an anime? Honestly how has Anime matured leaps and bounds ahead of anything they hoped to produce? Is it the graphic violence and nudity in some animes or is it the repetitive 'genres' that make anime sooooo superior to Disney's work since the mid 60's?

I mean Disney had been adapting old fairy tales and newer books (Snow White, Pinnochio, Dumbo, Bambi etc) for years before the mid 60's and continued to do so afterward (The Rescuers, The Great Mouse Detective, Robin Hood, The Little Mermaid etc etc). Almost none of their feature films are completely original stories....I can think of three recent ones, Fantasia 2000, The Emperor's New Groove and Lilo & Stitch all released within 5 years of each other while I can only think of the original Fantasia as being wholely an original concept from before your cut off date. Also are you including their shorts work in this cut off date a well and their surge in television stuff or are you only thinking of their recent tidal wave of straight to video/dvd sequels of their more famous features ie Jungle Book 2, Bambi 2, those Aladdin sequels etc etc?

As for your wanting to see a Disney adult aimed animated feature film....Why? There are already a number of companies producing such work why should Disney do so? I mean do you want to see Troma make a musical children's animated film (admittedly this sounds hilarious) when that is nothing like what they usually produce? I would rather see them stick to what they want to make.

I just want them return to doing hand drawn animated fare alongside their PIXAR work that isn't straight to DVD or tv. Hopefully after this year's glut of under par CG work Lasseter et al might get the ball rolling on that again.

Ribbons wrote:
ThisIsTheGirl wrote:That would rock my tiny mind! Why haven't they done this yet?


Because they're smart enough to know that they've destroyed the reputation of animation in the West as anything other than a children's medium. With the growing popularity of anime among youths and a couple of experimental films a la A Scanner Darkly, I'm hoping that we'll see a revolution some time in the next generation or two, but it's still going to take a lot to change the paradigm of animation in the West. I know here in the States, "animated film" is practically synonymous with "90-minute thing you can take your kids to so they'll shut up for a couple of hours."


While Disney films have obviously been aimed at families for years I don't think it's fair to blame them for destroying "the reputation of animation in the West as anything other than a children's medium." I would blame the saturday morning cartoons for that. Disney's animated features were originally aimed at adults as much as kids. Same goes for WB shorts featuring Bugs, Daffy etc or MGM's shorts of Tom and Jerry shown before standard films. Hell even Hanna Barbera and their limited animation was aimed at adults first since The Flintstones was a prime time Hooneymooners knockoff. It's the saturday morning schlock mostly shoved out the door by the aforementioned Hanna Barbera among others that cemented it as just a kids medium.
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Postby Ribbons on Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:20 pm

It's possible. It is a more complicated issue than I originally played it off as. But look at pretty much every animated film that comes out of Hollywood: they're pretty much all child-friendly, and they tend to follow specific formulas (talking sidekick, musicals, anthropomorphized animals, etc., usually thematically about things like appreciating what you have and so on and so forth). Disney may have initially been aimed at adults, or at least been more accessible to adults, but now, just like most everything else, I think, it caters to a very specific market in order to make money.

I'll bring up The Pacifier because, though live action, I think it's relevant in this situation. Movies like The Pacifier only exist because families take their children to see them. There's very little value in there for anyone over 10 years old. And they do gangbusters at the box office! So do animated films. I'm not quite sure where the stigma of animated films as children's entertainment first developed, but Hollywood is only too happy to perpetuate it. There's no one making "mature" (i.e., not appropriate for young children) animated films because they don't consider it viable.
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Postby Chairman Kaga on Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:26 pm

Oh yeah now that it all ties into Happy Meal toys and Pajamas and Action Figures and Breakfast Ceareals and Orangutans and Fruit Bats etc modern Animated stuff in the West is most definitely aimed at kids. I just think that is something that developed since the 1970s thus making it more recent than the entire history of Disney etc.
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Postby ZombieZoneSolutions on Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:41 pm

Hey, I love old DISNEY; like the early shorts, SNOW WHITE and the like;
FANTASIA is their hands down best and its absolutely brilliant. My
stepfather's father (me grandstepfather?) was an illustrator who worked
for Disney doing both key animations and fill-ins.

Anyways, I'd put the cut off date for Disney quality around 1960, 1961.
SLEEPING BEAUTY was what, 1959? Just about everything after
that (with the possible exception of SWORD IN THE STONE) was pure
utter crap; each year getting worse and worse, until they had to go so far
as to rape KIMBA and dumb it down for the braindead, overfed, mewling
masses of hypermediated overfed lumpen middle america...

Still I recognize the brilliance of their early work, I just think the last 40
years or so has demonstrated a slow and steady decline to the point
where now I find their films unwatchable (I don't count PIXAR in this,
because they were/are their own company / production house); basically
all they make now is anything stupid and colorful enough to make the
kids shut up for 90 minutes...

In terms of the adult animation thing, clearly there is a huge market for it
given the popularity of anime and stuff like Adult Swim, they're just too
chickenshit to take chances even though they have more money than
gOD, Santa Claus, Odin, and Ming the Mercilous combined.

Oh yes, and BUGS BUNNY pwns MICKY MOUSE...
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Postby Al Shut on Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:51 pm

Chairman Kaga wrote:Oh yeah now that it all ties into Happy Meal toys and Pajamas and Action Figures and Breakfast Ceareals and Orangutans and Fruit Bats etc modern Animated stuff in the West is most definitely aimed at kids. I just think that is something that developed since the 1970s thus making it more recent than the entire history of Disney etc.


Is it the west or just the USA. I don't have exact number because I don't count all the kids movies I don't watch but I remember several German animated movies were I would say they were not aimed at kids. Sure there are in a minority but my estimate is they're at least a sixth if not more.

@Zombie: I hope you a exaggerating on purpose. Or do you really meant to say Junglebook was utter crap.
Note to myself: Fix this image shit!
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Postby ZombieZoneSolutions on Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:55 pm

Dude, I hate THE JUNGLE BOOK. Even as a child I felt like it was
condescending. The bear was an idiot, the kid was a jerk, and all I wanted
was for the evil tiger to kill them all and dance in their cloying cutsey poo
remains.
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Postby Flumm on Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:57 pm

IPAMPILASH!!!

I kind of guessed that Mowgli would have been a lil' stringy for your tastes, Z. :P
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Postby ZombieZoneSolutions on Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:59 pm

You know me well, Flumm! :wink:

Seriously, didn't anyone else want the tiger to win? Sher Khan was his
name, right? He was so cool looking and the rest of them were so lame.
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Postby Al Shut on Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:06 pm

ZombieZoneSolutions wrote:Dude, I hate THE JUNGLE BOOK. Even as a child I felt like it was
condescending. The bear was an idiot, the kid was a jerk, and all I wanted
was for the evil tiger to kill them all and dance in their cloying cutsey poo
remains.


You Sir have just failed your Shut-Kampff test.
If you ever meet Harrison Ford run for your live, I'll send him orders to terminate you.
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Postby Fried Gold on Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:08 pm

My understanding is that Japanese audiences tend not to differentiate between an anime and a live-action film. They just see them all as films.

The problem we have is that our culture has taught us to see them as different things, and also to see animation as a more child associated method. When western audiences see an anime, it tends to assume "it is a cartoon, probably for kids".

The Simpsons, Aardman films, and then later on the Pixar films, are possibly some of the only animated things which have crossed the boundary of being for people of any age.
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Postby ZombieZoneSolutions on Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:53 pm

Fried Gold wrote:My understanding is that Japanese audiences tend not to differentiate between an anime and a live-action film. They just see them all as films.

The problem we have is that our culture has taught us to see them as different things, and also to see animation as a more child associated method. When western audiences see an anime, it tends to assume "it is a cartoon, probably for kids".


Yep, and DISNEY is one of the main reasons (arguably the main reason)
why this fallacious distinction continues to exist.
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