Star Wars: Episode III -- Revenge of the Sith

New movies! Old movies! B-movies! Discuss discuss discuss!!!

Was the ROTS Space Battle too short?

Yes.
17
40%
No.
12
29%
KHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNN!
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Total votes : 42

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Fri May 19, 2006 8:49 am

thedoglippedone wrote:
Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:
colonel_lugz wrote:
thedoglippedone wrote:Thank god for Clone Wars.


Thank Gendy!


Yeah but this isn't the thing that we should really be saying, should we? We should be talking about how great the PT were, 'cos of the Clone Wars in them, amongst other things, not pinning our enjoyment and satisfaction down to a spin off bloody cartoon.


That bloody cartoon captured more Star Wars spirit than all 3 PT movies put together. FACT.


I know!! That's part of my point.
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Postby doglips on Fri May 19, 2006 9:02 am

Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:
thedoglippedone wrote:
Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:
colonel_lugz wrote:
thedoglippedone wrote:Thank god for Clone Wars.


Thank Gendy!


Yeah but this isn't the thing that we should really be saying, should we? We should be talking about how great the PT were, 'cos of the Clone Wars in them, amongst other things, not pinning our enjoyment and satisfaction down to a spin off bloody cartoon.


That bloody cartoon captured more Star Wars spirit than all 3 PT movies put together. FACT.


I know!! That's part of my point.


I know!!! I was agreeing with you.
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Postby doglips on Fri May 19, 2006 9:11 am

ThisIsTheGirl wrote:
thedoglippedone wrote:
Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:
thedoglippedone wrote:
Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:
colonel_lugz wrote:
thedoglippedone wrote:Thank god for Clone Wars.


Thank Gendy!


Yeah but this isn't the thing that we should really be saying, should we? We should be talking about how great the PT were, 'cos of the Clone Wars in them, amongst other things, not pinning our enjoyment and satisfaction down to a spin off bloody cartoon.


That bloody cartoon captured more Star Wars spirit than all 3 PT movies put together. FACT.


I know!! That's part of my point.


I know!!! I was agreeing with you.


I know!!!! You're both gentlemen.


Seconded.
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Postby ThisIsTheGirl on Fri May 19, 2006 9:14 am

thedoglippedone wrote:
Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:
thedoglippedone wrote:
Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:
colonel_lugz wrote:
thedoglippedone wrote:Thank god for Clone Wars.


Thank Gendy!


Yeah but this isn't the thing that we should really be saying, should we? We should be talking about how great the PT were, 'cos of the Clone Wars in them, amongst other things, not pinning our enjoyment and satisfaction down to a spin off bloody cartoon.


That bloody cartoon captured more Star Wars spirit than all 3 PT movies put together. FACT.


I know!! That's part of my point.


I know!!! I was agreeing with you.


I know!!!! You're both gentlemen.
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Postby Chilli on Fri May 19, 2006 11:38 am

I watched this film a month ago for the fifth time...

... and its even worse than I remember. Just inadvertant hilarity from start to finish juxtaposed with chants of 'Why George why?' and 'I wish I knew how to quit you' during Anakin-Obi Wan's Duel.
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Postby ZombieZoneSolutions on Fri May 19, 2006 11:57 am

Chilli wrote:I watched this film a month ago for the fifth time...

... and its even worse than I remember. Just inadvertant hilarity from start to finish juxtaposed with chants of 'Why George why?' and 'I wish I knew how to quit you' during Anakin-Obi Wan's Duel.


The funniest thing about this statement is that, although you 'hated' it,
you watched it 5 times. Is that aesthetic masochism? Something
tells me you're not being entirely honest with yourself.

Anyways...

I definately agree that Tartovsky's CLONE WARS cartoon completely
pwned TPM and AOTC, but ROTS is a goddamn masterpiece. Its at least
as good as the best of the OT -- ESB and ANH -- and, in some ways, is
better. I still find it utterly thrilling and soul-crushingly heartbreaking;
you know, in a space fairy tale context. I got way more out of ROTS
than any of the LOTR films and I loved those films as well.

Oh sure, I suppose you could see ObiWan's love of Anakin as being some
kind of g@y brokeback jedi thang, but isn't it more of a teacher-student /
father-son / brother-brother love? I mean, if you want to read g@y
subtext into it, thats fine, but nothing is as flat out super g@y as the
relationship between twink / bottom Frodo and butch / top Samwise.
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Postby Chilli on Fri May 19, 2006 12:10 pm

Here's the lay-out on that zombie dude.

First time I watched it via a dodgy Russian copy. Fun, but I felt I'd need the cinematic experience to enjoy it. So I saw it in the cinema, and everything being amplified just made my eyes bug... and I spent the whole film laughing and joking about it with a pal.

Then my pals put on another dodgy copy... and I watched that and had another good old laugh.

Then two times at home cause folk fancied watching it.

Amazingly I find that hating it has led to enjoying it on a 'this is so horrifically awful its fun' level.

:lol:

ETA - Masterpiece? Well you sure are allowed your opinion, but in my view its a movie so riddled with 'cool' moments that it forgets to have a strong story. Seeing as how I enjoyed The Phantom Menace, my Star Wars expectations are never too high... but ROTS (hee ROT IN S) was just a hilariously inane film.

As for Dumbledore subtext... it was a joke. In no way is their relationship close to the HoYay between Sam and Frodo... although it is telling that there's more chemistry between Ewan and Hayden than Hayden/Natalie.

Least ROTS wasn't ROTK bad. I mean... dear God... that film nearly killed my LOTR appreciation.
Last edited by Chilli on Fri May 19, 2006 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby colonel_lugz on Fri May 19, 2006 12:13 pm

Chilli wrote: and I spent the whole film laughing and joking about it with a pal.


You didnt do that in a packed cinema did you?
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Postby Chilli on Fri May 19, 2006 12:15 pm

colonel_lugz wrote:
Chilli wrote: and I spent the whole film laughing and joking about it with a pal.


You didnt do that in a packed cinema did you?


I lack the ability to be subtle during films.
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Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Fri May 19, 2006 12:18 pm

Chilli wrote:
colonel_lugz wrote:[quote= "Chilli"] and I spent the whole film laughing and joking about it with a pal.


You didnt do that in a packed cinema did you?


I lack the ability to be subtle during films.[/quote]

I hate people like that.

You weren't that person who I threw a cinema chair at, at the very same time Palpatine threw Senate Pods at Yoda in the movie, in a New York theatre this time last year, were you?

:P
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Postby Chilli on Fri May 19, 2006 12:26 pm

Oh come on.

It was a friggin Star Wars film. If it was something like Syriana, I shut the f'k up and watch... but a piece of entertainment like Star Wars is there for audience reaction.

ETA - Kirk... if you did that to me... I would've got out of my chair and bitch-slapped you back onto the Enterprise. 8)
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Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Fri May 19, 2006 12:32 pm

Chilli wrote:Oh come on.

It was a friggin Star Wars film. If it was something like Syriana, I shut the f'k up and watch... but a piece of entertainment like Star Wars is there for audience reaction.

ETA - Kirk... if you did that to me... I would've got out of my chair and bitch-slapped you back onto the Enterprise. 8)


Good luck with that. Considering I had a whole row in front of of chairs with studly people dressed up as Jabba the Hutt sitting in them, and I doubt they could get out of the chairs in time before they went a flying.

Actually I can see a brilliant video game here forming in my mind.

Damn, why don't we know any video game programmers to make a Phantom Zone game!??!
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Postby Chilli on Fri May 19, 2006 12:40 pm

Because we're film-geeks, not computer-geeks?
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Postby ThisIsTheGirl on Fri May 19, 2006 12:46 pm

Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:Damn, why don't we know any video game programmers to make a Phantom Zone game!??!


Talk to The Ginger Man - not sure if he's a programmer, but he certainly works in the videogame industry. A somewhat outspoken young man he is too!
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Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Fri May 19, 2006 12:53 pm

We'll have to do some snooping.

BTW, what if you DID see me in the cinema there, amongst all those flying jabba chairs, and found out that I was wearing THIS SW Padme outfit.

































































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What would you do then?
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Postby Chilli on Fri May 19, 2006 12:56 pm

Throw up
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Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Fri May 19, 2006 1:11 pm

ThisIsTheGirl wrote:
Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:Damn, why don't we know any video game programmers to make a Phantom Zone game!??!


Talk to The Ginger Man - not sure if he's a programmer, but he certainly works in the videogame industry. A somewhat outspoken young man he is too!


Cheers dude, I'll ask him. I'm thinking of having some kind of fighting game where we all can play different Zoner characters, and have fighting traits and characteristics and powers of each other. IE, TITG could use his/her sex changing powers, like growing huge breasts and suffocating people with them and I could have killer flying toupees etc.
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Postby colonel_lugz on Fri May 19, 2006 1:12 pm

Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:
ThisIsTheGirl wrote:
Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:Damn, why don't we know any video game programmers to make a Phantom Zone game!??!


Talk to The Ginger Man - not sure if he's a programmer, but he certainly works in the videogame industry. A somewhat outspoken young man he is too!


Cheers dude, I'll ask him. I'm thinking of having some kind of fighting game where we all can play different Zoner characters, and have fighting traits and characteristics and powers of each other. IE, TITG could use his/her sex changing powers, like growing huge breasts and suffocating people with them and I could have killer flying toupees etc.


Cool!
name more characters/powers!
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Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Fri May 19, 2006 1:16 pm

colonel_lugz wrote:
Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:
ThisIsTheGirl wrote:
Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:Damn, why don't we know any video game programmers to make a Phantom Zone game!??!


Talk to The Ginger Man - not sure if he's a programmer, but he certainly works in the videogame industry. A somewhat outspoken young man he is too!


Cheers dude, I'll ask him. I'm thinking of having some kind of fighting game where we all can play different Zoner characters, and have fighting traits and characteristics and powers of each other. IE, TITG could use his/her sex changing powers, like growing huge breasts and suffocating people with them and I could have killer flying toupees etc.


Cool!
name more characters/powers!


Before I split/lock/create a new thread, let's just say for example that Colonel Lugz has killer giant ears that can fly off and flap and hit people or contain killer earwax, stuff like that. Huge powers. They could face off against my flying Toupees. Or when he's down he becomes Wolverine or something. Doc Holliday has his brilliant shootout skills.

The list is endless.

I basically have a ton of ideas for me obviously, and a few other Zoners, but it's best that we all come up with ideas ourslves and for each other too.

We can talk about all of this in a thread, but I don't wanna start a fuss over something that can't happen.

Relating this to topic, I DO have flying throwing chairs in this game.
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Postby Cha-Ka Khan on Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:27 pm

Here's something that I've always wondered about...

In SW:AOTC, Yoda is amazed to hear Qui-Gon's voice shout "No Anakin, NO!" as Anakin slices into the Tusken Raiders.

In SW:ROTS, Yoda informs Obi-Wan that Qui-Gon as achieved the ability to maintain individual consciousness after mergining with the Force, and that he would teach Yoda and Obi-Wan how to do it as well (thus setting up their "homework" for their time in exile).

So... how did Anakin manage to learn it so quickly at the end of SW:ROTJ?
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Postby darkjedijaina on Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:29 pm

one could postulate that perhaps this was what he was doing in that one scene where he's alone in his "room" with his helmet off... wait... that just came out all wrong.
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Postby Zarles on Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:31 pm

Well, he was the Chosen One and all that.

Kids learn stuff so much faster these days.
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Postby Cha-Ka Khan on Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:32 pm

Perhaps. Okay then, mystery solved!
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Postby Fawst on Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:43 pm

Actually, I always figured that it was something Palpatine already knew about. The idea that he was after immortality, I'm sure he had explored all of his options prior to ... whatever he came up with. So most likely, off screen, Palpatine showed Anakin how to do it.
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Postby darkjedijaina on Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:46 pm

that's a possibility as well. palpatine was strong with the force, and he did know much about things that the others did not.

one could assume though, that he (palpatine) wasn't able to do so because he was a Sith. perhaps only Jedi are able to retain consciousness.
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Postby Hermanator X on Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:46 pm

Fawst could have a point. I read one or two of the follow up novels, but couldnt really get into them. I know the emporer had clones of himself in them, so maybe he knew the trick, and how to make his ghost inhabit another body? Or maybe its all a load of rollox.
...and so forth.
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Postby darkjedijaina on Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:50 pm

I believe in the EU, Palpatine had to use technology in order to do that. Thus my statement that perhaps only Jedi could really retain true consciousness. Seems if I remember correctly that Palpatine had a time window in which he had to get to one of the clones before disappearing, but maybe that's just my imagination. Anyone else read the EU? Moo?
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Postby Fawst on Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:55 pm

Well, let's go at this logically. The PT is revisionist history, so we can ignore the "homework lesson," and just assume that those who are truly strong in the Force can do it =)
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Postby Lord Voldemoo on Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:59 pm

I think that we aren't supposed to think about it too carefully...

BUT I guess I would suggest that as The Chosen One, Anakin was able to pick up new powers faster than most. It's unclear as to how one force ghost interacts with another or if a living jedi has to do something in advance of death to become a ghost, but I'm just gonna go with the theory that after Vader died Yoda/Obi-Wan showed him how to do it somehow. Notice he doesn't talk, I would think that if he could he might want to go say a few more things to Luke...it seems like the power might be new to him.

but who the hell knows, it's really just a plothole more than anything I think.
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Postby darkjedijaina on Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:01 pm

I was just reading up, and yeah, apparently some other Sith ghosts resurrected Palpatine from the netherworld. But, anywho...

the spec for Anakin.. I'd guess that he was trying to study up on it to begin with and it kind of just came to him.
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Postby Fawst on Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:05 pm

No, no... Leia being built up to be as much of a badass as Luke then not delivering on that idea is a plothole. The force-ghosts are just Lucas writing himself into a corner with no way out. Changing Anakin from old to young sealed it.
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Postby ONeillSG1 on Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:21 pm

Perhaps the Force did it for him, as a thank you for offing the Emperor.

The Force is alive you know.
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Postby wonkabar on Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:50 pm

I think Jar-Jar should have gotten a Force-ghost
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Postby Fawst on Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:53 pm

I think Rand al'Thor should travel to Star Wars-Land and balefire Jar Jar, thus completely removing his thread from time and space.

Just sayin'.
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Postby Chairman Kaga on Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:59 pm

wonkabar wrote:I think Jar-Jar should have gotten a Force-ghost


You need to see the Robot Chicken Star Wars Special.

As for the question at hand.
One of the subtexts of Star Wars seems to be the Jedi losing their way as they rely more upon tech/science and less on the Force/faith/magic (the Midiclorian meters, the general bureaucracy of the Jedi, "If it's not in the archives then it doesn't exist" etc). After the Jedi are betrayed Obi and Yoda while in exile seemed to become more spiritual and less science bound thus they re-commune with the Force.
Vader physically represents the anti-thesis of this naturalism. He's artificially kept alive through technology. When he dies he is giving up on the tech/science (Dark Side) that has kept him alive and embracing the Force/Faith Magic/Nature in his death. Though the young ghost is a revision I took it to mean that Anakin's "soul" was dead/trapped/dormant inside the scientific/Frankenstienian corpse of Vader and was only freed when he turned from the Dark Side. As to if this is what George was shooting for.....I don't know.
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Postby junesquad on Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:06 pm

wonkabar wrote:I think Jar-Jar should have gotten a Force-ghost


Why? Jar-Jar didn't have the Force... he had dumb Gungan luck.
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Postby Fried Gold on Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:08 pm

I think that when attempting to seek clarity in a Star Wars film, it's best to leave the EU well alone.
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Postby wonkabar on Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:10 pm

Chairman Kaga wrote:.
One of the subtexts of Star Wars seems to be the Jedi losing their way as they rely more upon tech/science and less on the Force/faith/magic (the Midiclorian meters, the general bureaucracy of the Jedi, "If it's not in the archives then it doesn't exist" etc). After the Jedi are betrayed Obi and Yoda while in exile seemed to become more spiritual and less science bound thus they re-commune with the Force.
Vader physically represents the anti-thesis of this naturalism. He's artificially kept alive through technology. When he dies he is giving up on the tech/science (Dark Side) that has kept him alive and embracing the Force/Faith Magic/Nature in his death. Though the young ghost is a revision I took it to mean that Anakin's "soul" was dead/trapped/dormant inside the scientific/Frankenstienian corpse of Vader and was only freed when he turned from the Dark Side.

if this is what George was shooting for.....


No





For some reason I think more thought was put into your post than what Lucas put into the actual script
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Postby Chairman Kaga on Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:16 pm

I think that's underestimating his scripts. Sure Geroge is no wordsmith when it comes to dialog but he definitely pulled from multiple previous mythologies and concepts while following Joseph Campbell. I think the aforementioned subtext is a pretty obvious one over the course of the six films. My supposition of it's relationship to the "Force ghosts" may be tenuous but the Jedi-Good-Faith-Magic vs the Sith-Bad-Tech-Science is over abundant.
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Postby wonkabar on Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:28 pm

Chairman Kaga wrote:I think that's underestimating his scripts. Sure Geroge is no wordsmith when it comes to dialog but he definitely pulled from multiple previous mythologies and concepts while following Joseph Campbell. I think the aforementioned subtext is a pretty obvious one over the course of the six films. My supposition of it's relationship to the "Force ghosts" may be tenuous but the Jedi-Good-Faith-Magic vs the Sith-Bad-Tech-Science is over abundant.


I think the Campell/Kurosawa/mythological aspects have often been a bit overstated over the years quite frankly. While things that Lucas flat-out ripped off are barely given a shred of credit. But that's another argument.

Yeah, the subtexts you mentioned are there, but I wouldn't read so much into it, looking for something that might not really be there. Alot of the time Lucas is just lazy.


Chairman Kaga wrote:
wonkabar wrote:I think Jar-Jar should have gotten a Force-ghost


You need to see the (Robot Chicken) Star Wars Special. (it's toward the end)




I did....forgot about the ghost part though...LOL
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Postby Fawst on Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:31 pm

wonkabar wrote:Alot of the time Lucas is just lucky.


Corrected.
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Postby Chairman Kaga on Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:34 pm

wonkabar wrote:I think the Campell/Kurosawa/mythological aspects have often been a bit overstated over the years quite frankly. While things that Lucas flat-out ripped off are barely given a shred of credit. But that's another argument.

Oh yeah he's directly lifted stuff but as far as I have read he was the first major US film maker to follow Campbell's monomyth. That's all I meant by mentioning Campbell.
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Postby wonkabar on Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:34 pm

Fawst wrote:
wonkabar wrote:Alot of the time Lucas is just lucky.


Corrected.


Ah,

good call!
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Postby wonkabar on Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:52 pm

Chairman Kaga wrote:
wonkabar wrote:I think the Campell/Kurosawa/mythological aspects have often been a bit overstated over the years quite frankly. While things that Lucas flat-out ripped off are barely given a shred of credit. But that's another argument.

Oh yeah he's directly lifted stuff but as far as I have read he was the first major US film maker to follow Campbell's monomyth. That's all I meant by mentioning Campbell.


Gotcha.

I was being a little cheeky earlier. But seriously, I don't think Lucas really thought out the prequels very well. I think he ended up confusing himself/had written himself into many, many corners.

The Midichlorians, the Virgin Birth, Force ghosts, Forbidden Love, Elected Queens, The Tragedy of Darth Plagus or whatever etc.

There were just so many ideas that really didn't go anywhere. None of them help the story IMO, and I truly believe that if one were to go back and Phantom-Edit all the above concepts/scenes out of the prequels entirely...that it would take nothing away from the overall story. In fact, I think it would help.

The point I'm trying to make is that I think some fans and writers (not necessarily you) try to fit new pieces into a puzzle that isn't there. There are no connections because Lucas didn't really leave any....do you know what I mean?
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Postby Fawst on Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:56 pm

Of all the things I hate about Ep3, Darth Plagus is not one of them :) I thought that was actually one of the best parts of the entire trilogy.
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Postby Chairman Kaga on Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:01 pm

Oh yeah I agree. I also think it's really a nigh impossible task for a writer to do an incremental story like that over 30 years and not end up with dangling threads, much like Stephen King and the Dark Tower, that require some revisionism later on.

I wonder though how much of those dangling threads were intentionally left hanging by George (or maybe added in). Small things from the original trilogy were fleshed out by EU stuff (Boba Fett) well beyond anything George intended. Perhaps either consciously or unconsciously he creates those seemingly dead ends for other people to use as starting points.
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Postby wonkabar on Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:27 pm

Fawst wrote:Of all the things I hate about Ep3, Darth Plagus is not one of them :) I thought that was actually one of the best parts of the entire trilogy.


For me it's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Lucas provides implications aplenty, but when you really think it through it doesn't add up. So he just leaves a question mark and expects us to write it for him and that he's just being "ambiguous". In the case of the Plagus story Lucas basically sets up this idea that maybe Palpatine created Anakin and that he's just not 'spelling it out for the audience". The real reason he's not spelling it out is not because of any nuance on his part, but because if you actually committed to that angle it would be....fucking dumb.

Let's say that Palpatine DID create Anakin....let's really think about it....

It raises so many questions....and not in a good way.

Like, why Tattooine for example? I don't know, I'm not into the EU....was Anakin born there? You can't rely on EU to fill in blanks anyway. Sure, it's good to leave something for the audience to ponder, but you still need to have something there so that when they finish pondering things work out in a reasonable way.

I've imagined a backstory to this possible backstory, and I'm convinced that even in the hands of an excellent writer it would fall flat if told.

Lucas lets a half-baked notion dangle because he knows that if he committed to it it would look ridiculous. It's not Kubrikian ambiguity....it's just laziness
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Postby Chairman Kaga on Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:45 pm

wonkabar wrote:it's just laziness

That's where we disagree.
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Postby wonkabar on Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:01 pm

Chairman Kaga wrote:
wonkabar wrote:it's just laziness

That's where we disagree.


That's fine. But if the guy is gonna introduce virgin births, cellular symbiote life forms in our blood, transcending the netherworld of the force etc. then he needs to give us more than quick, almost brush-off/ grade-school explanations from Qui-Gon, Palpatine, Yoda etc. along with looped Liam Neeson dialogue from TPM with Ben Burt screaming "NOOOO"

It's just like the Death Star being built and all those freshly pressed Imperial uniforms that showed up at the last minute.

It's all just so half-assed IMO
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Postby Fievel on Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:04 pm

Was it REALLY a "virgin birth" or did Palpatine knock up some idiot slave girl via The Force.... or his wang... either way. I think that Anakin's mom was just either dumb and gullible or they blocked her memory somehow using an Ultra Mind Trick or something to that effect.
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