The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

New movies! Old movies! B-movies! Discuss discuss discuss!!!

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:19 pm

Well, Attack of the Clones was maybe the most ambitious of character development, and in that I mean regarding Anakin. The amount of boiling and conflicting emotions that he's going through, all that emotional unbalance and complexity, that he's on a razor's edge throughout the movie what with him dealing with his strengths and also his weaknesses, falling in a forbidden love with Padme and then dealing not just with his mother's murder but also his failure to save her, then also his failure to redeem any of this by being a kick ass-ing Jedi as well, not to mention his anger toward Obi Wan and there's so much more etc etc going on with Anakin.

I gotta give credit to being a good investigation into what is going on inside Anakin and what makes him tic. In this sense, AOTC has a great script there. Much more daring and different to previous SW scripts that just dealt with black and white easy to explain characters. George has been there and done that, that was easy in comparison to what he had on his plate in the Anakin movies.

So yeah, I can see Max's point. I don't think it was handled that well in the outcome what with some truly screwed up dialogue and Hayden not always delivering, but come on, you gt such a theatrical gutsy and loud a performance to be delivered and directed by someone who himself admits is not that great an actor's director and you got something so risky that is easy to fail here. Yes some of it is Hayden's fault, a lot of it isn't. But still, I do think that this movie has a higher reach than the others, aside from ROTS.

And that's just regarding character, I've yet to start on the political story of it. Or that it has one of the best ending action sequences of the movies. Like 40 minutes of what? The Arena fight with the monsters, then the Jedi vs Droids, then FINALLY - THE CLONE WARS ARE STARTING!!!! Then the lightsabre fights.

You got a lot of great stuff in this film that you shouldn't knock it so easily for.

So leave Max alone.
User avatar
Cpt Kirks 2pay
The Dark Tower
 
Posts: 16617
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:49 am

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby TheBaxter on Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:44 pm

AOTC does have some good things in it (the end battle, the coruscant chase, the jango fett/obi-wan fight) but there is just too much crap dragging it down to make it a good film. it's not the worst though, TPM was the worst. the pod race and darth maul (who's scenes were far too few and far between) were pretty much the only redeeming factors for that turd.
Image
User avatar
TheBaxter
Carlos Danger
 
Posts: 19227
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:00 pm

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:54 pm

It is by far the worst acted.
User avatar
Cpt Kirks 2pay
The Dark Tower
 
Posts: 16617
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:49 am

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby max314 on Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:58 pm

Nachokoolaid wrote:Max314, were you about Anakin's age when you saw Ep. II? If so, perhaps that's why you can relate to him so well in that one?


I related to it because I could empathise with the onscreen struggle between desire and duty. It accentuates the sense of yearning Anakin is shown to have for Padmé at the very beginning of the movie. The more they (and consequently, the audience) realise they're not allowed to be together, the more you feel it. And yet you know the floor has to fall through because Luke and Leia have to be born. So, as an audience, you feel as conflicted as Anakin - on the one hand you want them to be happy together, but on the other hand we know that this will lead to a very dark place.

That's my articulation of how it affected me.

Anyway, I rank Ep. II as the shittiest of the entire saga, so for someone to have it as their favorite seems odd to me, but different strokes, I guess. It seems like it could have been SO much better, and really just failed on a lot of levels.


For me, Episode II has this oddly restrained feeling that echoes Anakin's mindset. I really liked that. It made the movie feel tighter, more thematically unified, and gave it a really clearly defined sense of narrative purpose.

Honestly, I think it's the best of the lot.

But as you say: "Different strokes."

Doc Holliday wrote:Must you ask the same question twice? :twisted:


Hey, I liked Pacino in The Merchant of Venice :lol:

Fievel wrote:Perhaps Max only saw the IMAX cut which chopped a lot of the romance/stalkerannakin scenes, and was a much better picture for it.


No, I'm afraid it was the uncut version at the cinema. I remember because the audience went ape shit when Yoda's lightsaber hummed to life for the first time in 25 years :D

To be honest, the first time I walked out of Clones I wasn't all that impressed. I still wasn't a Star Wars fan.

It wasn't until I saw it on Sky Movies many months later. I found that, every time they showed it, I couldn't turn it off. I must have seen it at least ten times in one month, and I was totally captivated by it.

It's definitely a grower, but if you let it, it will rock your world.

Trust me. I've been there :wink:

Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:Well, Attack of the Clones was maybe the most ambitious of character development, and in that I mean regarding Anakin. The amount of boiling and conflicting emotions that he's going through, all that emotional unbalance and complexity, that he's on a razor's edge throughout the movie what with him dealing with his strengths and also his weaknesses, falling in a forbidden love with Padme and then dealing not just with his mother's murder but also his failure to save her, then also his failure to redeem any of this by being a kick ass-ing Jedi as well, not to mention his anger toward Obi Wan and there's so much more etc etc going on with Anakin.

I gotta give credit to being a good investigation into what is going on inside Anakin and what makes him tic. In this sense, AOTC has a great script there. Much more daring and different to previous SW scripts that just dealt with black and white easy to explain characters. George has been there and done that, that was easy in comparison to what he had on his plate in the Anakin movies.

So yeah, I can see Max's point. I don't think it was handled that well in the outcome what with some truly screwed up dialogue and Hayden not always delivering, but come on, you gt such a theatrical gutsy and loud a performance to be delivered and directed by someone who himself admits is not that great an actor's director and you got something so risky that is easy to fail here. Yes some of it is Hayden's fault, a lot of it isn't. But still, I do think that this movie has a higher reach than the others, aside from ROTS.

And that's just regarding character, I've yet to start on the political story of it. Or that it has one of the best ending action sequences of the movies. Like 40 minutes of what? The Arena fight with the monsters, then the Jedi vs Droids, then FINALLY - THE CLONE WARS ARE STARTING!!!! Then the lightsabre fights.

You got a lot of great stuff in this film that you shouldn't knock it so easily for.

So leave Max alone.


Look, you've got me blushing :lol:

Yeah, I agree with you. Hayden's performance is patchy, but there is a genuine attempt being made at a compelling character study. Sith may have the saving grace of functioning on an existing narrative momentum and a very resolute conclusion, but a lot of people forget that a lot of that momentum had to be built up from scratch during Attack of the Clones. And, for what it's worth, I actually think Lucas' work on Clones is - in many ways - much more accomplished as a character piece than Sith...which is also a really good movie in its own right.

But if I have to say which was the better crafted of the two, I think I'd have to go with Clones.

PS
Just so you can have an outsider's view on this discussion, I have a friend who had never seen a Star Wars film in his life. He absolutely flipped out for Clones and was totally pumped for Sith...but said he felt let down. To me, that shows the power of fans who have the original mythology fixed in their heads. I'd seen the originals, and even though I didn't like them very much, I still understood the impact of the various events that gave the movie that extra zing.

Still, a very accomplished saga, but my personal fave is Clones, with Sith coming a very close second.
Weapon of MAX Destruction
User avatar
max314
MONKEY BUTLER
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:06 pm

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby Fievel on Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:10 pm

max314 wrote: It's definitely a grower, but if you let it, it will rock your world.

Trust me. I've been there :wink:



Something tells me you're not talking about the movie anymore.....
Achievement Unlocked: TOTAL DOMINATION (Win a Werewolf Game without losing a single player on your team)
User avatar
Fievel
Mouse Of The House
 
Posts: 12148
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:07 pm
Location: White Lake, MI

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby max314 on Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:13 pm

Fievel wrote:Something tells me you're not talking about the movie anymore.....


Something may have a point 8-)
Weapon of MAX Destruction
User avatar
max314
MONKEY BUTLER
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:06 pm

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:29 pm

Thing is with AOTC and ROTS is that these 2 films aren't such easy stories to tell unlike the original movies. Again the black and white, he's good he's evil blow up the death star, rescue princess, blow up another death star, defeat the bad guys again. The stories and plots are thinner, more easy to follow, more straightforward again.

The 2 prequel films we talk about are more multi layered plot wise, theme wise and character wise. There's more levels to them, more political manipulations going on, talk about a puppeteered war and playing one side against each other, cloak and dagger you can't tell who's good who's bad and all the back stabbings secret plotting going on, the good guys don't win, sometimes the good guys and bad guys are the same person, a lot of things are half-half double layered and have a flip side coin element to them, what is percieved as a happy ending actually isn't necessarily and don't forget that the main character that is driving things forward isn't a good guy Luke Skywalker but a freaking bad guy - who we don't even figure out the identity of until the third film and then we gotta think 'huh?' and go back on the previous prequels to figure out what exactly he WAS really doing all along, and then we STILL might not get it.

So all you gentlemen who love to bash Lucas, you just leave him alone. He had a MUCH harder and MUCH different story to tell here.
User avatar
Cpt Kirks 2pay
The Dark Tower
 
Posts: 16617
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:49 am

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby max314 on Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:38 pm

Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:Thing is with AOTC and ROTS is that these 2 films aren't such easy stories to tell unlike the original movies. Again the black and white, he's good he's evil blow up the death star, rescue princess, blow up another death star, defeat the bad guys again. The stories and plots are thinner, more easy to follow, more straightforward again.

The 2 prequel films we talk about are more multi layered plot wise, theme wise and character wise. There's more levels to them, more political manipulations going on, talk about a puppeteered war and playing one side against each other, cloak and dagger you can't tell who's good who's bad and all the back stabbings secret plotting going on, the good guys don't win, sometimes the good guys and bad guys are the same person, a lot of things are half-half double layered and have a flip side coin element to them, what is percieved as a happy ending actually isn't necessarily and don't forget that the main character that is driving things forward isn't a good guy Luke Skywalker but a freaking bad guy - who we don't even figure out the identity of until the third film and then we gotta think 'huh?' and go back on the previous prequels to figure out what exactly he WAS really doing all along, and then we STILL might not get it.

So all you gentlemen who love to bash Lucas, you just leave him alone. He had a MUCH harder and MUCH different story to tell here.


Oh, couldn't agree more.

The first Star Wars was a very simplistic story. The Empire Strikes Back was essentially the same simplistic story, but with a twist. Return of the Jedi was yet another case of "rinse and repeat".

And as much as I think The Phantom Menace falls short, I still appreciate how tricky the story was to handle. Attack of the Clones is when Lucas gets the balance almost perfect. And Revenge of the Sith is the most expressly emotional (i.e. explicitly tragic) of the three.

And yeah, the prequels are doing a helluva lot more with their stories than those originals that bored me senseless as a kid.
Weapon of MAX Destruction
User avatar
max314
MONKEY BUTLER
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:06 pm

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby RogueScribner on Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:48 pm

Obviously max is on another plane of fandom than I, so there's no use in debating the finer points of why I feel AOTC is the absolute worst entry in the saga. The original trilogy moves slower than the PT, but I think they were more entertaining overall. I'll take Han, Luke, and Leia over Anakin, Padme, and Obi-Wan any day.
My eye isn't lazy; it's ambidextrous!
User avatar
RogueScribner
The Dork Avenger
 
Posts: 9609
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:52 am
Location: Melbourne, FL

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby Lord Voldemoo on Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:03 pm

max314 wrote:
Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:Thing is with AOTC and ROTS is that these 2 films aren't such easy stories to tell unlike the original movies. Again the black and white, he's good he's evil blow up the death star, rescue princess, blow up another death star, defeat the bad guys again. The stories and plots are thinner, more easy to follow, more straightforward again.

The 2 prequel films we talk about are more multi layered plot wise, theme wise and character wise. There's more levels to them, more political manipulations going on, talk about a puppeteered war and playing one side against each other, cloak and dagger you can't tell who's good who's bad and all the back stabbings secret plotting going on, the good guys don't win, sometimes the good guys and bad guys are the same person, a lot of things are half-half double layered and have a flip side coin element to them, what is percieved as a happy ending actually isn't necessarily and don't forget that the main character that is driving things forward isn't a good guy Luke Skywalker but a freaking bad guy - who we don't even figure out the identity of until the third film and then we gotta think 'huh?' and go back on the previous prequels to figure out what exactly he WAS really doing all along, and then we STILL might not get it.

So all you gentlemen who love to bash Lucas, you just leave him alone. He had a MUCH harder and MUCH different story to tell here.


Oh, couldn't agree more.

The first Star Wars was a very simplistic story. The Empire Strikes Back was essentially the same simplistic story, but with a twist. Return of the Jedi was yet another case of "rinse and repeat".

And as much as I think The Phantom Menace falls short, I still appreciate how tricky the story was to handle. Attack of the Clones is when Lucas gets the balance almost perfect. And Revenge of the Sith is the most expressly emotional (i.e. explicitly tragic) of the three.

And yeah, the prequels are doing a helluva lot more with their stories than those originals that bored me senseless as a kid.


It aint the story.

It's the execution.

And, yes, I agree with essentially everything said above. There is no question that the prequel stories are much more complex than the OT. The OT is pure adventure, the prequels are more than that. Sure...those are harder films to make.

But....y'know...it's not like they're THAT hard. Good writers/directors make great films that are much more emotionally complex all the time.

For me, anyway, it's about the little things. The goofy choices. The stilted dialogue. Jar Jar. Wooden Acting. Noooooooooooooooo. The lack of a space battle in any of the three films that comes anywhere close to the battles in ANH or ROTJ. My problem has never, ever been about the general themes/plotlines. Aspects of the plots maybe (i could have done without the gungans).

I think George is amazing at writing stories. I think he sucks at writing dialogue. And I think he's a pretty horrible director of actors.

You take the same stories and have someone else direct them, someone with the balls and power and talent to change the crappy lines while filming and I think you could have films on caliber with the OT. Or at least much closer to.

The stories aren't the problem.
Image
User avatar
Lord Voldemoo
He Who Shall Not Be Milked
 
Posts: 17641
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:18 pm
Location: Pasture next to the Red Barn

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby TonyWilson on Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:19 pm

Fucking word, Moo. I'll take my starting point as stalled trade negotiations if it leads to some AWESOME JEDI SHIT. But it didn't, well ok it did but in the lamest way possible.
Elitism is positing that your taste is equivalent to quality, you hate "Hamlet" does it make it "bad"? If you think so, you're one elite motherfucker.
User avatar
TonyWilson
No Less Liquid Than His Shadow
 
Posts: 9155
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:45 am
Location: A Drained Swimming Pool

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:47 pm

TonyWilson wrote:Fucking word, Moo. I'll take my starting point as stalled trade negotiations if it leads to some AWESOME JEDI SHIT. But it didn't, well ok it did but in the lamest way possible.


Oh but they DID! Oh but they DID!!

Phantom Menace - Looook at the magnificent and TOTALLY necessary way that Obi Wan and Qui Gon spun and jumped and swirled their sabres about cutting up useless soldier droids when all they had to do was to run at them holding their sabre outstretched. So acrobatic, so poestic - so CLUMSY!
User avatar
Cpt Kirks 2pay
The Dark Tower
 
Posts: 16617
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:49 am

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby Nachokoolaid on Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:48 pm

Episode I and II should have been combined into one film and been called Ep I. Episode two should have been what we saw in Sith. And Episode III should have been the some kickass shit with Vader fucking tearing ass through the galaxy and destroying what was left of the Jedi. I think that this would make a much more interesting prequel trilogy and I think this lack of focusing on cooler aspects of "what might have been" was Lucas' initial mistake. Sure there were more mistakes, but that's the biggest. The first shot we should have seen of Anakin should have been when he was in his teenage years- at the youngest.
User avatar
Nachokoolaid
THE DORK KNIGHT
 
Posts: 5588
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:00 am
Location: Gotham City

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby Fievel on Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:32 pm

Nachokoolaid wrote:Episode I and II should have been combined into one film and been called Ep I. Episode two should have been what we saw in Sith. And Episode III should have been the some kickass shit with Vader fucking tearing ass through the galaxy and destroying what was left of the Jedi. I think that this would make a much more interesting prequel trilogy and I think this lack of focusing on cooler aspects of "what might have been" was Lucas' initial mistake. Sure there were more mistakes, but that's the biggest. The first shot we should have seen of Anakin should have been when he was in his teenage years- at the youngest.


We should have had The Clone Wars on film. We should have specifically had Obi Wan serving Bail Organa during The Clone Wars like Leia mentioned in the R2D2 message in A New Hope.
Achievement Unlocked: TOTAL DOMINATION (Win a Werewolf Game without losing a single player on your team)
User avatar
Fievel
Mouse Of The House
 
Posts: 12148
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:07 pm
Location: White Lake, MI

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:44 am

Fievel wrote:
Nachokoolaid wrote:Episode I and II should have been combined into one film and been called Ep I. Episode two should have been what we saw in Sith. And Episode III should have been the some kickass shit with Vader fucking tearing ass through the galaxy and destroying what was left of the Jedi. I think that this would make a much more interesting prequel trilogy and I think this lack of focusing on cooler aspects of "what might have been" was Lucas' initial mistake. Sure there were more mistakes, but that's the biggest. The first shot we should have seen of Anakin should have been when he was in his teenage years- at the youngest.


We should have had The Clone Wars on film. We should have specifically had Obi Wan serving Bail Organa during The Clone Wars like Leia mentioned in the R2D2 message in A New Hope.


Yeah George! As THAT you full well KNOW was one of the very most looked forward to part of the story. The fact is, is that you still could have told Anakin's story via the Clone Wars and given enough involvement to both stories but also LINK the two together. Anakin in love with Padme could easily have been told through the Clone Wars, (Her in danger, he having to protect or rescue her) and his mother dieing (Killed by his Clone War enemies not flipping random OT irrelevant characters like Tusken Raiders), him becoming a Jedi by being a hero in the Clone Wars, and it's easy to have his relationship with Obi Wan done by having the 2 fight together. I know some of this was shown well in ROTS but that was also the point. It worked, but more of all these stories being show via some kick ass major battles in The Clone Wars could still be shown more.

Sigh, I do feel that some of this George Lucas dropping the ball was deliberate on his part. It don't 'arf feel like it.
User avatar
Cpt Kirks 2pay
The Dark Tower
 
Posts: 16617
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:49 am

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby max314 on Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:49 am

RogueScribner wrote:Obviously max is on another plane of fandom than I, so there's no use in debating the finer points of why I feel AOTC is the absolute worst entry in the saga. The original trilogy moves slower than the PT, but I think they were more entertaining overall.


Well, I did post a warning that Star Wars traditionalists would probably have very little sympathy for my point of view :mrgreen:

And no, I think "debating the finer points" is perfectly okay. It's what we're here to do. Certainly more rewarding than saying, "It sucked!"

"No, it rocked!"

:D

I'll take Han, Luke, and Leia over Anakin, Padme, and Obi-Wan any day.


You can have them :lol:

Lord Voldermoo wrote:It aint the story.

It's the execution.

And, yes, I agree with essentially everything said above. There is no question that the prequel stories are much more complex than the OT. The OT is pure adventure, the prequels are more than that. Sure...those are harder films to make.

But....y'know...it's not like they're THAT hard. Good writers/directors make great films that are much more emotionally complex all the time.

For me, anyway, it's about the little things. The goofy choices. The stilted dialogue. Jar Jar. Wooden Acting. Noooooooooooooooo. The lack of a space battle in any of the three films that comes anywhere close to the battles in ANH or ROTJ. My problem has never, ever been about the general themes/plotlines. Aspects of the plots maybe (i could have done without the gungans).

I think George is amazing at writing stories. I think he sucks at writing dialogue. And I think he's a pretty horrible director of actors.

You take the same stories and have someone else direct them, someone with the balls and power and talent to change the crappy lines while filming and I think you could have films on caliber with the OT. Or at least much closer to.

The stories aren't the problem.


I get what you're saying; "It's not the stories or ideas, it's the execution - the little creative choices that make you cringe."

One problem.

The original trilogy made me cringe, too. It made me cringe so much, in fact, that I was in serious danger of having a permanent squit.

There's nothing in the execution of the prequels that isn't in the execution of the originals. In fact, I'd argue that the prequels are much more refined in their execution and pacing than the originals.

If it comes down to Vader's epic "NOOOOOOOO!!" and Luke's whiny "powerrrrrrrrrr converterrrrrrrrrs" or Leia's "nerf herder" (why does that sound so inappropriate?), I'd choose the one voiced by James Earl Jones. But that's me.

Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:Yeah George! As THAT you full well KNOW was one of the very most looked forward to part of the story. The fact is, is that you still could have told Anakin's story via the Clone Wars and given enough involvement to both stories but also LINK the two together. Anakin in love with Padme could easily have been told through the Clone Wars, (Her in danger, he having to protect or rescue her) and his mother dieing (Killed by his Clone War enemies not flipping random OT irrelevant characters like Tusken Raiders), him becoming a Jedi by being a hero in the Clone Wars, and it's easy to have his relationship with Obi Wan done by having the 2 fight together. I know some of this was shown well in ROTS but that was also the point. It worked, but more of all these stories being show via some kick ass major battles in The Clone Wars could still be shown more.

Sigh, I do feel that some of this George Lucas dropping the ball was deliberate on his part. It don't 'arf feel like it.


Am I the only one who not only enjoyed the recent Clone Wars CG movie but also thinks that the subsequent TV show is seriously one of the best things ever on TV?

I am?

Just checking.
Weapon of MAX Destruction
User avatar
max314
MONKEY BUTLER
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:06 pm

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:05 am

No you're absolutely not. I for one, did really get a kick out of the Clone Wars movie. I thought it was the best fun I had at the theatres that Summer, apart from watching an Ellen Page movie in my overcoat or one with Vanessa Hudgens. Oh wait, they didn't have films out that Summer. OK, Clones was the most fun I had then. I thought it was what the prequels should have been, not just having the Clone Wars in them obviously but it had the plot intruiges that the prequels had, but the fun, the spirit, that whole classic SW enjoyability that the Original movies did. It was as Anakin and Obi Wan should have been in the movies, more clearly cut characters that were actually fun, guys you would wanna hang out with. That is what gives Star Wars it's magic.

I don't get why people bashed that movie. It was kick ass for me. The TV series I only saw the last half of one episode, but it looked just as good.
User avatar
Cpt Kirks 2pay
The Dark Tower
 
Posts: 16617
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:49 am

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby TonyWilson on Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:05 am

Max, I think Moo's point goes a little deeper than that, yes there's a tremendous amount of cheese in the OT (Only Trilogy) but it's built around a super solid, deeply mythic "Hero's Journey" with amazing technologies, awesome bad guys and cool as balls Jedi good guys, the cheese melts on top of that like a damn pizza, delicious.
The PT (Pants Trilogy) is a more complex plot, but stupid and simplistic in it's dialogue, emotions and characters. And where Lucas could have gone for another mythic Paradise Lost style tale of a fall from grace, he went for what turns out to be a rather lame modern day political analogy replete with racist caricatures. Pile all that on top of the complicated plot macinationsand it crushes the subtleties that would be needed to lend weight to the mature and political story.
Elitism is positing that your taste is equivalent to quality, you hate "Hamlet" does it make it "bad"? If you think so, you're one elite motherfucker.
User avatar
TonyWilson
No Less Liquid Than His Shadow
 
Posts: 9155
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:45 am
Location: A Drained Swimming Pool

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby TheBaxter on Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:33 am

i think a lot of what makes the prequels (especially parts I and II) so bad is the knowledge of what could have been. it's easy for any SW fan to go in with expectations of what they want to see and how they want to see it, and in that way it was kind of a no-win situation for lucas. which means maybe he shouldn't have done them at all. but if he was going to do them, he needed to ace them, and he didn't. he came close with ROTS, but honestly, nothing in the prequels lived up to what fans have lived with in their heads for 15-20 years prior. also, we didn't have spy sites and early reviews and stuff during the OT. everything hit us fresh and all at once, whereas with the prequels we had months and months to see every little bit of production design, hear about every new character and plot point, get early reviews, and debate and discuss it all with each other, so that by the time the actual film came out, it already felt played out. there's almost no way a film can hit you as a fan these days the way those original films did. since max wasn't a fan of the OT, that probably has a lot to do with why he's able to enjoy them more than the rest of us (though saying they are BETTER than the OT is going way too far).
Image
User avatar
TheBaxter
Carlos Danger
 
Posts: 19227
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:00 pm

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby max314 on Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:41 am

TonyWilson wrote:Max, I think Moo's point goes a little deeper than that, yes there's a tremendous amount of cheese in the OT (Only Trilogy) but it's built around a super solid, deeply mythic "Hero's Journey" with amazing technologies, awesome bad guys and cool as balls Jedi good guys, the cheese melts on top of that like a damn pizza, delicious.
The PT (Pants Trilogy) is a more complex plot, but stupid and simplistic in it's dialogue, emotions and characters. And where Lucas could have gone for another mythic Paradise Lost style tale of a fall from grace, he went for what turns out to be a rather lame modern day political analogy replete with racist caricatures. Pile all that on top of the complicated plot macinationsand it crushes the subtleties that would be needed to lend weight to the mature and political story.


The OT is very straight forward, very simplistic, very predictable. Its themes of good vs. evil are rendered in a manner I can only describe as puerile. It had some neat characters, sure. But not only were they very one dimensional, but the "adventures" they engaged in felt so lackluster and dry that it rendered all that stuff moot.

The PT doesn't have the backdrop of an ongoing conflict (except in Sith) in the same way that the OT had the Rebel Alliance fighting the Galactic Empire. But what we get instead is a chance to breathe. To explore this fantasy galaxy. To really become involved in the place, its stories, its characters. Also, its depiction of good vs. evil is far more nuanced than that of the OT. Unlike the OT, with its sudden and melodramatic character transitions, the PT actually takes the time to delve into the the details and relishes it. Throw in the breathtaking visuals, the political intrigue, Anakin's gradual turn to the dark side, and the promise of a galaxy full of adventure finally fulfilled properly...well, it's little wonder the PT gets more play time in my DVD player than the others.

TheBaxter wrote:i think a lot of what makes the prequels (especially parts I and II) so bad is the knowledge of what could have been. it's easy for any SW fan to go in with expectations of what they want to see and how they want to see it, and in that way it was kind of a no-win situation for lucas. which means maybe he shouldn't have done them at all. but if he was going to do them, he needed to ace them, and he didn't. he came close with ROTS, but honestly, nothing in the prequels lived up to what fans have lived with in their heads for 15-20 years prior. also, we didn't have spy sites and early reviews and stuff during the OT. everything hit us fresh and all at once, whereas with the prequels we had months and months to see every little bit of production design, hear about every new character and plot point, get early reviews, and debate and discuss it all with each other, so that by the time the actual film came out, it already felt played out. there's almost no way a film can hit you as a fan these days the way those original films did. since max wasn't a fan of the OT, that probably has a lot to do with why he's able to enjoy them more than the rest of us (though saying they are BETTER than the OT is going way too far).


I'm sure you think so.

Again, it's a natural consequence of growing up having fallen in love with the OT as a kid.

But I can assure you the OT is more crappy than fans would like to admit. And that the prequel trilogy has a lot more to offer than they'll admit.
Weapon of MAX Destruction
User avatar
max314
MONKEY BUTLER
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:06 pm

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby TheBaxter on Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:44 am

max314 wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:i think a lot of what makes the prequels (especially parts I and II) so bad is the knowledge of what could have been. it's easy for any SW fan to go in with expectations of what they want to see and how they want to see it, and in that way it was kind of a no-win situation for lucas. which means maybe he shouldn't have done them at all. but if he was going to do them, he needed to ace them, and he didn't. he came close with ROTS, but honestly, nothing in the prequels lived up to what fans have lived with in their heads for 15-20 years prior. also, we didn't have spy sites and early reviews and stuff during the OT. everything hit us fresh and all at once, whereas with the prequels we had months and months to see every little bit of production design, hear about every new character and plot point, get early reviews, and debate and discuss it all with each other, so that by the time the actual film came out, it already felt played out. there's almost no way a film can hit you as a fan these days the way those original films did. since max wasn't a fan of the OT, that probably has a lot to do with why he's able to enjoy them more than the rest of us (though saying they are BETTER than the OT is going way too far).


I'm sure you think so.

Again, it's a natural consequence of growing up having fallen in love with the OT as a kid.

But I can assure you the OT is more crappy than fans would like to admit. And that the prequel trilogy has a lot more to offer than they'll admit.


and i can assure you you're 100% wrong about that, but since it's all just opinion on both sides, it doesn't mean anything.

or to paraphrase one piece of brilliant PT dialogue:

"max, the PT is evil!"
"from my point of view, the OT is evil!"
"well then max, you are truly lost"
Image
User avatar
TheBaxter
Carlos Danger
 
Posts: 19227
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:00 pm

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby max314 on Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:48 am

TheBaxter wrote:and i can assure you you're 100% wrong about that, but since it's all just opinion on both sides, it doesn't mean anything.

or to paraphrase one piece of brilliant PT dialogue:

"max, the PT is evil!"
"from my point of view, the OT is evil!"
"well then max, you are truly lost"


Oh sure, great - position me as the crazy Sith convert and yourself as Obi-Wan Kenobi :roll:

:lol:
Weapon of MAX Destruction
User avatar
max314
MONKEY BUTLER
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:06 pm

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby Fievel on Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:42 am

max314 wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:and i can assure you you're 100% wrong about that, but since it's all just opinion on both sides, it doesn't mean anything.

or to paraphrase one piece of brilliant PT dialogue:

"max, the PT is evil!"
"from my point of view, the OT is evil!"
"well then max, you are truly lost"


Oh sure, great - position me as the crazy Sith convert and yourself as Obi-Wan Kenobi :roll:

:lol:

To continue with bad PT dialogue...


Max... you're breaking my heart!


:D
Achievement Unlocked: TOTAL DOMINATION (Win a Werewolf Game without losing a single player on your team)
User avatar
Fievel
Mouse Of The House
 
Posts: 12148
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:07 pm
Location: White Lake, MI

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby TheBaxter on Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:55 am

"I'm haunted by the prequels that lucas should never have given me. they are in my very soul, tormenting me!"
Image
User avatar
TheBaxter
Carlos Danger
 
Posts: 19227
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:00 pm

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby max314 on Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:57 am

Fievel wrote:
max314 wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:and i can assure you you're 100% wrong about that, but since it's all just opinion on both sides, it doesn't mean anything.

or to paraphrase one piece of brilliant PT dialogue:

"max, the PT is evil!"
"from my point of view, the OT is evil!"
"well then max, you are truly lost"


Oh sure, great - position me as the crazy Sith convert and yourself as Obi-Wan Kenobi :roll:

:lol:

To continue with bad PT dialogue...


Max... you're breaking my heart!


:D


Mm, those are some pretty on-the-nose lines you've picked out. The exchange between Anakin and Obi-Wan is generally okay, except I'd have changed, "From my point of view the Jedi are evil," to "The way I see it the Jedi are evil." I can see what Lucas was trying to do by paying off the "point of view" line from Anakin's conversation with Palpatine, as well as echoing Obi-Wan's own words to Luke in Jedi. But it doesn't flow as well as it should. And unlike the man Hayden is acting opposite, he doesn't have the ability to sell the line.

"You're breaking my heart" should just have been dropped altogether. I will concede that that truly is a bit of very bad writing. If I were Lucas, I'd have Padmé take out the little pendant thing Anakin gave to her and fiddle with it anxiously. She closes her eyes with a heartbroken look on her face. Then, as if resigning to her own death, she says, "You're going down a path I can't follow." Which is actually a decent line.

I think that part of the dialogue needed to be played quieter. That way, when Obi-Wan steps into view and Anakin says, "You're with him," Padmé's "NO!!" would have had more of an impact.

It's still a very effective scene, mind you. Just needs a wee polish. The movie's still more satisfying than any of the OTs.

TheBaxter wrote:"I'm haunted by the prequels that lucas should never have given me. they are in my very soul, tormenting me!"


Ah, I actually liked that line! :lol:

It's very operatic, very theatrical. It works pretty well.

Granted, it's not exactly subtle, but Star Wars rarely is.
Weapon of MAX Destruction
User avatar
max314
MONKEY BUTLER
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:06 pm

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby RogueScribner on Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:59 am

max314 wrote:The OT is very straight forward, very simplistic, very predictable. Its themes of good vs. evil are rendered in a manner I can only describe as puerile. It had some neat characters, sure. But not only were they very one dimensional, but the "adventures" they engaged in felt so lackluster and dry that it rendered all that stuff moot.


There are many films with a "puerile" theme of good vs. evil; it doesn't make them bad films. As Moo pointed out, it's all in the execution.

Also, what was so lackluster about the adventures shared by Han, Luke, and Leia? They were fighting a war! The Empire provided a constant threat in all three movies. They were constantly on the run, looking for any advantage they could find. Not to mention Luke ended up in the middle of the biggest power play for control of the galaxy since the Empire's inception. Any limitations on the spectacle are due to limitations in the budget and I don't think you can rightly fault the OT for that. Lucas had loads more money and advanced technology (and control) to play with in the PT than he ever did on the OT. The PT has a lot more to look at and it's (mostly) rendered pretty seamlessly, but there are lots of video games that look and sound great but are ultimately meaningless experiences (like the bulk of the action in the PT, especially in AOTC).

And there isn't a single space battle in the PT that matches up to the excitement of any seen in the OT. With all the advances in technology and money at his disposable, Lucas still never figured out that one.

The PT doesn't have the backdrop of an ongoing conflict (except in Sith) in the same way that the OT had the Rebel Alliance fighting the Galactic Empire. But what we get instead is a chance to breathe. To explore this fantasy galaxy. To really become involved in the place, its stories, its characters. Also, its depiction of good vs. evil is far more nuanced than that of the OT. Unlike the OT, with its sudden and melodramatic character transitions,


Examples?

the PT actually takes the time to delve into the the details and relishes it. Throw in the breathtaking visuals, the political intrigue, Anakin's gradual turn to the dark side,


Gradual to a point. Then a switch was flipped and he was suddenly EVIL. The one moment that needed to work in the entire PT was Anakin's turn to the dark side and the ball was dropped there too.

and the promise of a galaxy full of adventure finally fulfilled properly...well, it's little wonder the PT gets more play time in my DVD player than the others.


Again, you're faulting the OT for not having the scope of the PT when it wasn't really possible. Even so, compelling characters make a story engaging and Padme was wasted after TPM, Anakin's arc began one movie too late (and Hayden's acting didn't help matters either), and Obi-Wan rotated between being a clueless Jedi and being a clueless friend. The most interesting and consistent character in the PT was Palpatine. The PT showed what the OT could only hint at or give just a taste of, and that's certainly in its favor, but that doesn't automatically make them better movies.

But I can assure you the OT is more crappy than fans would like to admit. And that the prequel trilogy has a lot more to offer than they'll admit.


The OT is outmatched by the PT in VFX and scope, but it tells a better story. The pieces were there for the PT, but the execution was sorely lacking. I think Lucas had a clearer vision for what he wanted the adventures of Luke Skywalker to be than he did for Anakin, save for his fall to the darkside, which is why ROTS is the most well-crafted out of any of the PT (though there weren't a lot of surprises; we all knew where it was headed).
My eye isn't lazy; it's ambidextrous!
User avatar
RogueScribner
The Dork Avenger
 
Posts: 9609
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:52 am
Location: Melbourne, FL

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby TonyWilson on Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:04 am

max314 wrote:The OT is very straight forward, very simplistic, very predictable. Its themes of good vs. evil are rendered in a manner I can only describe as puerile.


Well first I'd dig out a dictionary if you are having that much trouble with adjectives :wink:

There's only the appearance of maturity and depth in the PT, it's harnessed on to the same simplistic devices and characters as the OT but the very fact the story is trying to be emotionally complex and morally grey means all Lucas' irreverent, childish, cheesy tropes jar horribly with the attempts at something deeper. In the primary coloured broad brushstrokes of the OT those tropes are organic to the story.

It had some neat characters, sure. But not only were they very one dimensional, but the "adventures" they engaged in felt so lackluster and dry that it rendered all that stuff moot.

The PT doesn't have the backdrop of an ongoing conflict (except in Sith) in the same way that the OT had the Rebel Alliance fighting the Galactic Empire. But what we get instead is a chance to breathe. To explore this fantasy galaxy.


Yup and it turns out this fantasy Galaxy is poorly thought out, full of stupid modern day analogies (death sticks? holy god that was bad), racist stereotypes and the Jedi and Obi Wan in particular are generally quite dickish, more time with the characters just means we get to see how 2 dimensional they are.


To really become involved in the place, its stories, its characters.


If only they were worth getting involved with.


Also, its depiction of good vs. evil is far more nuanced than that of the OT. Unlike the OT, with its sudden and melodramatic character transitions, the PT actually takes the time to delve into the the details and relishes it.


But the character moments are encumbered with fucking woeful dialogue that makes it impossible to take seriously and for the kids they are just boring pauses between fights = Lucas Fail.


Throw in the breathtaking visuals, the political intrigue,


Yes absolutely out fuckingstanding visuals of everyone in a virtual reality environment , I really bought those interiors were fully computer generated!!!

Anakin's gradual turn to the dark side,


Was poorly handled, he's a dick the whole way through, he kills the child Tusken Raiders and nobody seems to care, why the hell does Padme fall for him? It almost feels like Lucas was trying to hint at Anakin's psycho tendencies but Lucas is so fucking inept and unsubtle he does it by having him commit a fucking massacre.

:shock:


and the promise of a galaxy full of adventure finally fulfilled properly...well, it's little wonder the PT gets more play time in my DVD player than the others.


If by finally fulfilled promise you mean like Megan Fox promises me a blowjob and after the milisecond it takes me to consent she brings out Kathy Bates to do it, then yes.
Elitism is positing that your taste is equivalent to quality, you hate "Hamlet" does it make it "bad"? If you think so, you're one elite motherfucker.
User avatar
TonyWilson
No Less Liquid Than His Shadow
 
Posts: 9155
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:45 am
Location: A Drained Swimming Pool

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:08 am

TheBaxter wrote:
max314 wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:i think a lot of what makes the prequels (especially parts I and II) so bad is the knowledge of what could have been. it's easy for any SW fan to go in with expectations of what they want to see and how they want to see it, and in that way it was kind of a no-win situation for lucas. which means maybe he shouldn't have done them at all. but if he was going to do them, he needed to ace them, and he didn't. he came close with ROTS, but honestly, nothing in the prequels lived up to what fans have lived with in their heads for 15-20 years prior. also, we didn't have spy sites and early reviews and stuff during the OT. everything hit us fresh and all at once, whereas with the prequels we had months and months to see every little bit of production design, hear about every new character and plot point, get early reviews, and debate and discuss it all with each other, so that by the time the actual film came out, it already felt played out. there's almost no way a film can hit you as a fan these days the way those original films did. since max wasn't a fan of the OT, that probably has a lot to do with why he's able to enjoy them more than the rest of us (though saying they are BETTER than the OT is going way too far).


I'm sure you think so.

Again, it's a natural consequence of growing up having fallen in love with the OT as a kid.

But I can assure you the OT is more crappy than fans would like to admit. And that the prequel trilogy has a lot more to offer than they'll admit.


and i can assure you you're 100% wrong about that,


I can assure you that you're wrong about that too. A lot of the orgasmic worship of the OTs when a lot of these so called 'fans' come down to it and watch them with a clear head again, a lot of them realise from my reckoning or experience that these films, actually, aren't THAT great. It's the myth, the movies as a trilogy as a whole and the hype that they continue to be fueled with over time that can sometimes blur people's perceptions of them. When we all sit down all excited to watch them again or when we watched the Special Editions a the movies again, a lot of us realised yeah these movies are great but they're not THAT good. they're full of flaws and a lot of wasted plot time just running about shooting stormtroopers or chasing them on bikes which aren't up to much point etc., the acting's not that great, the story isn't either and is rather thin even. It took me ages on rewatches of Empire to like it like I do now and even NOW I admit it can be quite fucking boring sometimes. The first one isn't the most invigorating or immersing character wise. Jedi is just crap in many aspects too. Acing that makes you cringe or laugh unintentionally, a retread of the first one, a fucking puppet show when it should be serious, the worst acted of the lot, etc etc.

A lot of my friends when they really sit down and re watch the films and judge them on their own, a lot of them realise how overhyped they are. One of my mates said the films are actually crap and preferred stuff like Jaws whilst I preferred Raiders.I reckon a lot of the there people who rant and rave about the good ol days of the OT, are blinded a lot about how 'awesome' they were.

A lot of people who put these films on such a high pedestal and the PTs down are wearing their 'I LOVE OT' 'I HATE PT' hats just a bit too tight, I think.
User avatar
Cpt Kirks 2pay
The Dark Tower
 
Posts: 16617
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:49 am

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby TonyWilson on Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:11 am

Kirk = Fail. The Special Editions are still full of post 82 Lucas meddling.
Elitism is positing that your taste is equivalent to quality, you hate "Hamlet" does it make it "bad"? If you think so, you're one elite motherfucker.
User avatar
TonyWilson
No Less Liquid Than His Shadow
 
Posts: 9155
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:45 am
Location: A Drained Swimming Pool

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby max314 on Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:27 am

RogueScribner wrote:There are many films with a "puerile" theme of good vs. evil; it doesn't make them bad films. As Moo pointed out, it's all in the execution.


You misunderstand me.

I was calling the execution of the good vs. evil theme in the OT "puerile".

EDIT:
The Star Wars prequels have exactly the same theme (i.e. good vs. evil), bu instead of being painted as stoic abstractions, they're revealed to be frighteningly real, frighteningly accessible.

Also, what was so lackluster about the adventures shared by Han, Luke, and Leia? They were fighting a war! The Empire provided a constant threat in all three movies. They were constantly on the run, looking for any advantage they could find. Not to mention Luke ended up in the middle of the biggest power play for control of the galaxy since the Empire's inception. Any limitations on the spectacle are due to limitations in the budget and I don't think you can rightly fault the OT for that. Lucas had loads more money and advanced technology (and control) to play with in the PT than he ever did on the OT. The PT has a lot more to look at and it's (mostly) rendered pretty seamlessly, but there are lots of video games that look and sound great but are ultimately meaningless experiences (like the bulk of the action in the PT, especially in AOTC).

And there isn't a single space battle in the PT that matches up to the excitement of any seen in the OT. With all the advances in technology and money at his disposable, Lucas still never figured out that one.


They just felt so rudimentary, so simplistic, so predictable.

It's interesting that, despite knowing the outcome of the prequels, the stories they tell are actually more engaging than the ones in the OT.

The PT doesn't have the backdrop of an ongoing conflict (except in Sith) in the same way that the OT had the Rebel Alliance fighting the Galactic Empire. But what we get instead is a chance to breathe. To explore this fantasy galaxy. To really become involved in the place, its stories, its characters. Also, its depiction of good vs. evil is far more nuanced than that of the OT. Unlike the OT, with its sudden and melodramatic character transitions,


Examples?


Luke at the end of Jedi.

Gradual to a point. Then a switch was flipped and he was suddenly EVIL. The one moment that needed to work in the entire PT was Anakin's turn to the dark side and the ball was dropped there too.


I have to disagree. Seeds are planted throughout the prequel trilogy. Him signing the pact with the Devil occurred after he finally decided that keeping Padmé alive was an excuse he could live with in exchange for having the power he always wanted.

He was finished after helping kill Mace Windu. There were no more thresholds left to cross.

Again, you're faulting the OT for not having the scope of the PT when it wasn't really possible. Even so, compelling characters make a story engaging and Padme was wasted after TPM, Anakin's arc began one movie too late (and Hayden's acting didn't help matters either), and Obi-Wan rotated between being a clueless Jedi and being a clueless friend. The most interesting and consistent character in the PT was Palpatine. The PT showed what the OT could only hint at or give just a taste of, and that's certainly in its favor, but that doesn't automatically make them better movies.


Never said it did.

The PT's scope is just a delicious cherry on a very delicious cake.

With the possible exception of Padmé in Revenge of the Sith, all the characters were compellingly drawn.

The OT is outmatched by the PT in VFX and scope, but it tells a better story. The pieces were there for the PT, but the execution was sorely lacking. I think Lucas had a clearer vision for what he wanted the adventures of Luke Skywalker to be than he did for Anakin, save for his fall to the darkside, which is why ROTS is the most well-crafted out of any of the PT (though there weren't a lot of surprises; we all knew where it was headed).


I don't think so.

Revenge of the Sith may be the most clearly defined PT film for fans of the OT because they can see exactly where it's going, but I'd argue that Attack of the Clones is the most unified and well-rendered story of the bunch. I'd go into exactly why, but I think this kick-ass poster sums it up rather nicely:

Image

Conversely, with The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, you just got the feeling Lucas was making up arbitrary plot twists as he was going along.

"Vader's his father!"

"Leia's his sister!"

"Han's his son!"

Believe me, if there's a Star Wars film that knows what it's about and has the courage to pursue it, it's Attack of the Clones.
Last edited by max314 on Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Weapon of MAX Destruction
User avatar
max314
MONKEY BUTLER
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:06 pm

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby max314 on Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:45 am

TonyWilson wrote:Well first I'd dig out a dictionary if you are having that much trouble with adjectives :wink:

There's only the appearance of maturity and depth in the PT, it's harnessed on to the same simplistic devices and characters as the OT but the very fact the story is trying to be emotionally complex and morally grey means all Lucas' irreverent, childish, cheesy tropes jar horribly with the attempts at something deeper. In the primary coloured broad brushstrokes of the OT those tropes are organic to the story.


If I've understood you correctly, you're saying that the child-centric aesthetic of the PT jars with its attempt at telling a more mature story.

You may have a point. But I don't think you do.

The reason? Very simple. I think OT fans have been programmed and preconditioned with a particular manner in which a Star Wars story must be told. So seeing that childlike quality merge with a different type of storytelling - while compelling for myself and my non-fan friend - appears jarring to those with a preconceived notion of what the film should be.

But if it makes you feel better, the PT is darker in tone and content than the OT in many ways. Which kind of renders the initial argument moot.

Yup and it turns out this fantasy Galaxy is poorly thought out, full of stupid modern day analogies (death sticks? holy god that was bad), racist stereotypes and the Jedi and Obi Wan in particular are generally quite dickish, more time with the characters just means we get to see how 2 dimensional they are.


What's wrong with death sticks? Absolutely nothing. Especially when it's used in such a great moment.

No, I think the more time we spend with these characters, the more time Lucas has to paint their flaws, their quirks. We actually bond with them. Lucas dropped the ball slightly with Padmé in Sith (one of the reasons I think it's inferior to Clones), but apart from that, it's damn good stuff.


If only they were worth getting involved with.


You mean you don't agree with me?! :shock:

:wink:

But the character moments are encumbered with fucking woeful dialogue that makes it impossible to take seriously and for the kids they are just boring pauses between fights = Lucas Fail.


It's funny how people made a point of how they felt the dialogue was bad in Menace and Clones. Truth is, the bad lines don't really come until Sith.

Another reason why Clones is the best in the saga.

Yes absolutely out fuckingstanding visuals of everyone in a virtual reality environment , I really bought those interiors were fully computer generated!!!


Yes, just like I really bought that Yoda was a puppet whose legs were always conveniently out of sight.

If you stop to notice the technology, the thing falls apart. What you should focus on is the storytelling. Which you also didn't like, but that's a different point :lol:

Was poorly handled, he's a dick the whole way through, he kills the child Tusken Raiders and nobody seems to care, why the hell does Padme fall for him? It almost feels like Lucas was trying to hint at Anakin's psycho tendencies but Lucas is so fucking inept and unsubtle he does it by having him commit a fucking massacre.

:shock:


His mother had just been murdered. Died in his arms. And he's a trained Jedi with a lightsaber in his hands.

Padmé's not exactly doing cartwheels around the sand dunes at the idea of Anakin killing the Tusken tribe, but she knows that he's in tremendous pain and believes he is fundamentally a good person even though he seriously fucked up. As we all do at times. Like when we delude ourselves that the OT is better than the PT.

If by finally fulfilled promise you mean like Megan Fox promises me a blowjob and after the milisecond it takes me to consent she brings out Kathy Bates to do it, then yes.


Credit where credit's due - you certainly know how to paint a picture :lol:
Weapon of MAX Destruction
User avatar
max314
MONKEY BUTLER
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:06 pm

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:00 pm

TonyWilson wrote:Kirk = Fail. The Special Editions are still full of post 82 Lucas meddling.


Who said I was necessarily talking about the post 82 post production fuck up SEs?

Oh yeah, another thing about the OT. The whole 'let's rescue Han from Jabba' thing. Biggest sub plot/plot tangent EVAH eh!?!? Was all that necessary? What the fark did this whole thing have to do with the final outcome of what the story was REALLY about? Luke growing as a Jedi coulda been one some other way more relevant to the Rebels Vs Empire thing and SOOO many more etc etcs before I'm done.

What about the beginning of Empire too? Han rescuing Luke like Thumper rescuing Bambi in the snow or was it the other way around? How much time did this whole thing take up before the plot began. Get to the point of the real story will ya? And as far as I remember, the real story doesn't really take place until Luke gets to Dagobah. All that happened before was a just a set up. Set up set up set up.

(In gritted teeth.) Before I'm done I will tighten my GRIP on the OT, clench my FIST around your beloved OT and squeeze all the life out of it and crush it!!!
User avatar
Cpt Kirks 2pay
The Dark Tower
 
Posts: 16617
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:49 am

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:05 pm

max314 wrote:
Conversely, with The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, you just got the feeling Lucas was making up arbitrary plot twists as he was going along.

"Vader's his father!"

"Leia's his sister!"

"Han's his son!"

Believe me, if there's a Star Wars film that knows what it's about and has the courage to pursue it, it's Attack of the Clones.


Yeah it is SO bloody true, come on guys, admit it. By the time Jedi was done Lucas was really scraping the bottom of the barrel for character plot twists and seemed to be just throwing the kitchen sink of these ideas in there just for the sake of it. I always thought that it ruined the character story f these films, why did Lucas have to take it too far? It was so far being a great touching story about friendship and how close and great this unit could be, but no, it wasn't enough for Lucas who ALWAYS lets his films descend into cop out family territory - so he HAD to make them all a family at the end. It was just characterisation taken too far. Too spectacular he wanted it. I mean by the time Jedi was over, it was only farking Lando and Chewie who were the ones left out of the family!!!!

As Mad Magazine said in their rip off of Jedi, Leia said to Han regarding all the family revelations going on, that HE was probably HER bloody UNCLE!!!
User avatar
Cpt Kirks 2pay
The Dark Tower
 
Posts: 16617
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:49 am

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby max314 on Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:07 pm

Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:
TonyWilson wrote:Kirk = Fail. The Special Editions are still full of post 82 Lucas meddling.


Who said I was necessarily talking about the post 82 post production fuck up SEs?

Oh yeah, another thing about the OT. The whole 'let's rescue Han from Jabba' thing. Biggest sub plot/plot tangent EVAH eh!?!? Was all that necessary? What the fark did this whole thing have to do with the final outcome of what the story was REALLY about? Luke growing as a Jedi coulda been one some other way more relevant to the Rebels Vs Empire thing and SOOO many more etc etcs before I'm done.

What about the beginning of Empire too? Han rescuing Luke like Thumper rescuing Bambi in the snow or was it the other way around? How much time did this whole thing take up before the plot began. Get to the point of the real story will ya? And as far as I remember, the real story doesn't really take place until Luke gets to Dagobah. All that happened before was a just a set up. Set up set up set up.

(In gritted teeth.) Before I'm done I will tighten my GRIP on the OT, clench my FIST around your beloved OT and squeeze all the life out of it and crush it!!!


I felt exactly the same way when watching the movies as a kid.

They both felt ridiculously tangential and completely irrelevant. It's like they were fresh out of ideas and were like, "Okay, what if Luke gets captured by a snow monkey and Han goes after him and finds him and blah, blah, fucking blah."

Say what you want about the prequels, at least they had a shit load of new and interesting content and had stories that stayed on point.

Yeah it is SO bloody true, come on guys, admit it. By the time Jedi was done Lucas was really scraping the bottom of the barrel for character plot twists and seemed to be just throwing the kitchen sink of these ideas in there just for the sake of it. I always thought that it ruined the character story f these films, why did Lucas have to take it too far? It was so far being a great touching story about friendship and how close and great this unit could be, but no, it wasn't enough for Lucas who ALWAYS lets his films descend into cop out family territory - so he HAD to make them all a family at the end. It was just characterisation taken too far. Too spectacular he wanted it. I mean by the time Jedi was over, it was only farking Lando and Chewie who were the ones left out of the family!!!!

As Mad Magazine said in their rip off of Jedi, Leia said to Han regarding all the family revelations going on, that HE was probably HER bloody UNCLE!!!


Before I called Han his son, I was actually considering calling him his uncle :lol:
Weapon of MAX Destruction
User avatar
max314
MONKEY BUTLER
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:06 pm

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby RogueScribner on Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:14 pm

max314 wrote:
RogueScribner wrote:There are many films with a "puerile" theme of good vs. evil; it doesn't make them bad films. As Moo pointed out, it's all in the execution.


You misunderstand me.

I was calling the execution of the good vs. evil theme in the OT "puerile".


How so? I'll give you ANH, the lines were pretty clearly drawn and dealt with simplistically. But that changed in TESB and ROTJ. There were lies and betrayal and emotional tugs of war while trying to sort it all out. Lando, Vader, Obi-Wan, Luke, Leia, and Han were all affected. They all had to make choices and then deal with the consequences. Lando betrayed his friend, but for the good of Cloud City. Obi-Wan lied to Luke, but in hopes of protecting him (and/or using Luke as a pawn to exact revenge on Vader). Yoda and Obi-Wan both felt Vader was irredeemable, but Luke didn't. Luke thought he could be saved. Han purposely let himself get caught by Boba Fett just so the world would see Leia in a gold bikini. The line between good and evil was drawn in ANH, smudged in TESB, and redrawn in ROTJ. That doesn't sound puerile to me. Do you think that's going to happen in the Transformers movies? I don't think so.

Also, what was so lackluster about the adventures shared by Han, Luke, and Leia? They were fighting a war! The Empire provided a constant threat in all three movies. They were constantly on the run, looking for any advantage they could find. Not to mention Luke ended up in the middle of the biggest power play for control of the galaxy since the Empire's inception. Any limitations on the spectacle are due to limitations in the budget and I don't think you can rightly fault the OT for that. Lucas had loads more money and advanced technology (and control) to play with in the PT than he ever did on the OT. The PT has a lot more to look at and it's (mostly) rendered pretty seamlessly, but there are lots of video games that look and sound great but are ultimately meaningless experiences (like the bulk of the action in the PT, especially in AOTC).

And there isn't a single space battle in the PT that matches up to the excitement of any seen in the OT. With all the advances in technology and money at his disposable, Lucas still never figured out that one.


They just felt so rudimentary, so simplistic, so predictable.

It's interesting that, despite knowing the outcome of the prequels, the stories they tell are actually more engaging than the ones in the OT.


I mentioned several examples above of how unpredictable the OT was. The first time you watched ANH you expected Luke's aunt and uncle to die? For an entire planet to get blown up? For Han to cop a feel in the trash compactor? For Han to reappear at the last second and clear the way for Luke to destroy the Death Star? In TESB, did you expect the great Jedi master Obi-Wan spoke of to be a little green troll? For the cave the Falcon was hiding in to be a space slug? For Lando to betray his friend? For Han to be frozen? For Luke not to save the day, but need saving himself? For Vader to reveal that he was Luke's father? In ROTJ, did you expect Yoda to die? For him to confirm that Vader told the truth? For Obi-Wan to cop to lying, but then still tell Luke that Vader is a lost cause? To find out Leia is Luke's sister? For Vader to save Luke? For Vader to destroy the Emperor? For little teddy bears to topple an armed militia of Imperial troopers?

The OT is only predictable once you've watched it a bunch of times.

The PT is more densely plotted than the OT, but that works against it in that Lucas chose to start the story when Anakin was a little kid so the subsequent films felt like they were playing catch up to resolve all the necessary plot developments.

The PT doesn't have the backdrop of an ongoing conflict (except in Sith) in the same way that the OT had the Rebel Alliance fighting the Galactic Empire. But what we get instead is a chance to breathe. To explore this fantasy galaxy. To really become involved in the place, its stories, its characters. Also, its depiction of good vs. evil is far more nuanced than that of the OT. Unlike the OT, with its sudden and melodramatic character transitions,


Examples?


Luke at the end of Jedi.


You're going to have to expound on that. I don't see how Luke suffered a "sudden and melodramatic character transition" at the end of ROTJ. The best thing about ROTJ was the arc between Luke/Vader/Palpatine (and the closing space battle, which still rivals anything in the PT).

Gradual to a point. Then a switch was flipped and he was suddenly EVIL. The one moment that needed to work in the entire PT was Anakin's turn to the dark side and the ball was dropped there too.


I have to disagree. Seeds are planted throughout the prequel trilogy. Him signing the pact with the Devil occurred after he finally decided that keeping Padmé alive was an excuse he could live with in exchange for having the power he always wanted.

He was finished after helping kill Mace Windu. There were no more thresholds left to cross.


Seeds were planted, yes. But in a matter of seconds Anakin goes from being shocked that he just killed a Jedi master, to pledging loyalty to Palpatine and then slaughtering children without any qualms. He crept crept crept towards the dark side for so long and then without so much as a push just leapt over the line and that was that. There needed to be more of a moment, more of a showing that Anakin was actually thinking about what he was about to do and resigning himself to it. Instead we get:

"What have I done?!"

"Join me and destroy everything you've ever known."

"Okay."

"Excellent!"

Lame.

Again, you're faulting the OT for not having the scope of the PT when it wasn't really possible. Even so, compelling characters make a story engaging and Padme was wasted after TPM, Anakin's arc began one movie too late (and Hayden's acting didn't help matters either), and Obi-Wan rotated between being a clueless Jedi and being a clueless friend. The most interesting and consistent character in the PT was Palpatine. The PT showed what the OT could only hint at or give just a taste of, and that's certainly in its favor, but that doesn't automatically make them better movies.


Never said it did.

The PT's scope is just a delicious cherry on a very delicious cake.

With the possible exception of Padmé in Revenge of the Sith, all the characters were compellingly drawn.


Jar Jar was compellingly drawn? Bail? Mace? Obi-Wan? Dooku?

Do you want to know the main difference between the PT and OT? The PT was motivated by matters of plot; the OT was motivated by matters of character. I'll take the latter every time.

The OT is outmatched by the PT in VFX and scope, but it tells a better story. The pieces were there for the PT, but the execution was sorely lacking. I think Lucas had a clearer vision for what he wanted the adventures of Luke Skywalker to be than he did for Anakin, save for his fall to the darkside, which is why ROTS is the most well-crafted out of any of the PT (though there weren't a lot of surprises; we all knew where it was headed).


I don't think so.

Revenge of the Sith may be the most clearly defined PT film for fans of the OT because they can see exactly where it's going, but I'd argue that Attack of the Clones is the most unified and well-rendered story of the bunch.


Too bad awful dialogue and wooden performances and video game action scenes made that entry feel the least Star Wars out of any of the series.

Conversely, with The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, you just got the feeling Lucas was making up arbitrary plot twists as he was going along.

"Vader's his father!"

"Leia's his sister!"

"Han's his son!"


Believe me, if there's a Star Wars film that knows what it's about and has the courage to pursue it, it's Attack of the Clones.


Lucas toyed with the idea that Vader was Luke's father even before the first movie came out. Leia being Luke's sister was a necessary plot resolution when he decided he wouldn't ever make a sequel trilogy. It was either do that or leave it unresolved. And the only thing Han was ever a son of was a bitch. :wink:
Last edited by RogueScribner on Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
My eye isn't lazy; it's ambidextrous!
User avatar
RogueScribner
The Dork Avenger
 
Posts: 9609
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:52 am
Location: Melbourne, FL

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:18 pm

TonyWilson wrote:Was poorly handled, he's a dick the whole way through, he kills the child Tusken Raiders and nobody seems to care, why the hell does Padme fall for him? It almost feels like Lucas was trying to hint at Anakin's psycho tendencies but Lucas is so fucking inept and unsubtle he does it by having him commit a fucking massacre.
:shock:


Yeah thanks for that one, Tony! Reminding me what was one of the things so bloody great about Clones. I mean, for a film still aimed at relative kiddies, it was so daring, and took chances. I mean the hero commits murder of an entire tribe, but not just men, but women and children too!!! It already at an early stage, shows Anakin's GENOCIDAL TENDANCIES!!! How far farking out was that?! I can't think of many other ways to get the point across about how murderously evil this sonofabitch can be. Certainly sets the scene for what he will become later.

The point that many miss about Anakins' turn to the dark side in helping kill Windu is that it wasn't a SUDDEN change, but something that already had the seeds sown and evil developed and shown in Clones first of all. At least half of Vader's development had already occoured there. Then it continued with Sith up to the point of that confirmed act of vanquishing Windu. But the point that a lot of people STILL miss, is that his turn to the dark side, ISN'T really complete there. His turn to help Palpatine might be, but at this point he still can turn back you know? But he doesn't, from there on he goes on to kill Jedi, kids, the Trade Federation, his wife, tries to kill his master, then gets faked up and turned into Vader. It's only at the end when he turns to Vader yes, but his true turn to the dark side I don't think REALLY happens with the Windu scene. It happens somewhere else along the lines that follow.

So there!
User avatar
Cpt Kirks 2pay
The Dark Tower
 
Posts: 16617
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:49 am

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby RogueScribner on Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:27 pm

max314 wrote:I felt exactly the same way when watching the movies as a kid.

They both felt ridiculously tangential and completely irrelevant. It's like they were fresh out of ideas and were like, "Okay, what if Luke gets captured by a snow monkey and Han goes after him and finds him and blah, blah, fucking blah."

Say what you want about the prequels, at least they had a shit load of new and interesting content and had stories that stayed on point.



The opening to TESB was necessary to show how the Empire was hunting Luke down, how Luke has grown stronger in the Force, and how he knows to go see Yoda to further develop those powers. It also shows how tight nit Han, Luke, and Leia are now before they separate when escaping Hoth.

The opening to ROTJ was necessary to further show how much Luke's powers have developed, how isn't above playing with the dark side, how Lando risks his life to save a friend he previously betrayed, and how the whole group come together to save one of their own. The movie had to open that way. It was either save Han or leave him in carbonite forever. Also, the sail barge fight was one of the better fights in the OT. I could watch that over and over.

You want to talk about needlessly long or superfluous scenes? Pod race. Droid factory. Anakin vs Obi-Wan. Even a lightsaber battle can be boring if it goes for too long.
My eye isn't lazy; it's ambidextrous!
User avatar
RogueScribner
The Dork Avenger
 
Posts: 9609
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:52 am
Location: Melbourne, FL

Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby RogueScribner on Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:35 pm

Kirks, I just don't see how Anakin can be all conflicted and wanting to do the right thing for so long, even in Palpatine's office with Mace Windu, and then so quickly turn to evil and then minutes later slaughter a bunch of children. The transition didn't work because there was no transition. Maybe if Anakin looked stressed about what he was about to do to those kids and then worked up the courage to do it I could understand no turning back. But he was in full on massacre mode marching up those steps and he didn't think twice--nay, not even once!--about slaughtering the children. So he was full on dark side, no longer had a trace of nobility in him, and that was strange considering he spent half the movie trying to reconcile his lust for power with his desire to be a good guy.
My eye isn't lazy; it's ambidextrous!
User avatar
RogueScribner
The Dork Avenger
 
Posts: 9609
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:52 am
Location: Melbourne, FL

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:37 pm

RogueScribner wrote:
max314 wrote:I felt exactly the same way when watching the movies as a kid.

They both felt ridiculously tangential and completely irrelevant. It's like they were fresh out of ideas and were like, "Okay, what if Luke gets captured by a snow monkey and Han goes after him and finds him and blah, blah, fucking blah."

Say what you want about the prequels, at least they had a shit load of new and interesting content and had stories that stayed on point.



The opening to TESB was necessary to show how the Empire was hunting Luke down, how Luke has grown stronger in the Force, and how he knows to go see Yoda to further develop those powers. It also shows how tight nit Han, Luke, and Leia are now before they separate when escaping Hoth.

The opening to ROTJ was necessary to further show how much Luke's powers have developed, how isn't above playing with the dark side, how Lando risks his life to save a friend he previously betrayed, and how the whole group come together to save one of their own. The movie had to open that way. It was either save Han or leave him in carbonite forever. Also, the sail barge fight was one of the better fights in the OT. I could watch that over and over.


That's just character. For me, to be satisfying screen time, it's gotta be character AND plot.

RogueScribner wrote:You want to talk about needlessly long or superfluous scenes? Pod race. Droid factory. Anakin vs Obi-Wan. Even a lightsaber battle can be boring if it goes for too long.


Droid factory I agree with. Pod Race I don't though as I did think that it was such an important point of the story, it was the succeed or fail moment on which all things hung on then. The Anakin-Obi Wan fight I actually wanted to go on for longer!

One more thing about the OT - farking Ewoks. Let me ask you a question... Can-you-deal with THAT!!!???
User avatar
Cpt Kirks 2pay
The Dark Tower
 
Posts: 16617
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:49 am

Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:38 pm

RogueScribner wrote:Kirks, I just don't see how Anakin can be all conflicted and wanting to do the right thing for so long, even in Palpatine's office with Mace Windu, and then so quickly turn to evil and then minutes later slaughter a bunch of children. The transition didn't work because there was no transition. Maybe if Anakin looked stressed about what he was about to do to those kids and then worked up the courage to do it I could understand no turning back. But he was in full on massacre mode marching up those steps and he didn't think twice--nay, not even once!--about slaughtering the children. So he was full on dark side, no longer had a trace of nobility in him, and that was strange considering he spent half the movie trying to reconcile his lust for power with his desire to be a good guy.


Hey - did I say that killing farking BABIES was evil?!?!!?!? :twisted:
User avatar
Cpt Kirks 2pay
The Dark Tower
 
Posts: 16617
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:49 am

Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby max314 on Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:50 pm

RogueScribner wrote:Lucas toyed with the idea that Vader was Luke's father even before the first movie came out. Leia being Luke's sister was a necessary plot resolution when he decided he wouldn't ever make a sequel trilogy. It was either do that or leave it unresolved.


Leave what unresolved?

I'm sure Lucas had toying with the idea of Vader's parentage of Luke. But so what? Empire is a piece of shit except for that final duel. And even then, the duel only works at its best when the audience knows Luke is fighting his father. It's clear it was used as a cheap shock. Ironically, it would have actually had a deeper emotional resonance if the audience had been watching from Eps.I-VI.

And I tell ya something - the films that benefited most from that idea were the prequels. And I'm thankful for that.

And the only thing Han was ever a son of was a bitch. :wink:


:|

Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:Yeah thanks for that one, Tony! Reminding me what was one of the things so bloody great about Clones. I mean, for a film still aimed at relative kiddies, it was so daring, and took chances. I mean the hero commits murder of an entire tribe, but not just men, but women and children too!!! It already at an early stage, shows Anakin's GENOCIDAL TENDANCIES!!! How far farking out was that?! I can't think of many other ways to get the point across about how murderously evil this sonofabitch can be. Certainly sets the scene for what he will become later.

The point that many miss about Anakins' turn to the dark side in helping kill Windu is that it wasn't a SUDDEN change, but something that already had the seeds sown and evil developed and shown in Clones first of all. At least half of Vader's development had already occoured there. Then it continued with Sith up to the point of that confirmed act of vanquishing Windu. But the point that a lot of people STILL miss, is that his turn to the dark side, ISN'T really complete there. His turn to help Palpatine might be, but at this point he still can turn back you know? But he doesn't, from there on he goes on to kill Jedi, kids, the Trade Federation, his wife, tries to kill his master, then gets faked up and turned into Vader. It's only at the end when he turns to Vader yes, but his true turn to the dark side I don't think REALLY happens with the Windu scene. It happens somewhere else along the lines that follow.

So there!


Agree completely.

It's refreshing to see someone who actually gets this stuff.

RogueScribner wrote:The opening to TESB was necessary to show how the Empire was hunting Luke down, how Luke has grown stronger in the Force, and how he knows to go see Yoda to further develop those powers. It also shows how tight nit Han, Luke, and Leia are now before they separate when escaping Hoth.


Yeah, what was that line again?

"Han - old buddy - do you read me?"

See? We know they're close friends because he called him "old buddy" :roll:

All those things could have been done in a much better way instead of that fucking ice monster plot point and completely flat AT-AT sequence that followed. It just reeks of inefficiency, irrelevance, and complete lack of imagination.

What would have worked better is if they kept the entire first act about the Empire's pursuit. Maybe a probe gets a shot off at Luke and a band of stormtroopers are sent to investigate what the probe hit. They find Luke unconscious and start dragging him onto a ship when he wakes up, uses the Force to kick some ass, and escapes into the wilderness...but not before a stormtrooper activates a signal on the ship that tells the Empire to come immediately (instead of the probe just randomly spotting the supposedly hidden rebel base). That way, the AT-AT sequence would have had more of an impact. As it stands, it feels like its paying off something that doesn't deserve to be paid off.

The opening to ROTJ was necessary to further show how much Luke's powers have developed, how isn't above playing with the dark side, how Lando risks his life to save a friend he previously betrayed, and how the whole group come together to save one of their own. The movie had to open that way. It was either save Han or leave him in carbonite forever. Also, the sail barge fight was one of the better fights in the OT. I could watch that over and over.


They could have got Han out in just over 10 minutes.

You want to talk about needlessly long or superfluous scenes? Pod race. Droid factory. Anakin vs Obi-Wan. Even a lightsaber battle can be boring if it goes for too long.


Pod race was tense. Not only established the degree of Anakin's innate talents, but the heroes' mission depended on him coming first.

Droid factory was an entertaining third act obstacle that lead to the capture and near-execution of Anakin and Padmé.

And Anakin vs. Obi-Wan was badass. Its length only heightens the anticipation of what we know must be coming.
Weapon of MAX Destruction
User avatar
max314
MONKEY BUTLER
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:06 pm

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby TheBaxter on Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:29 pm

max314 wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:"I'm haunted by the prequels that lucas should never have given me. they are in my very soul, tormenting me!"


Ah, I actually liked that line! :lol:

It's very operatic, very theatrical. It works pretty well.

Granted, it's not exactly subtle, but Star Wars rarely is.


you actually, seriously, consider that to be "good dialogue"????

i'm trying to be real understanding here, but how anyone could find those atrocious lines to be good is beyond me. i mean, you may as well be talking in Farsi at this point. i'm willing to account for different people having different tastes, but to like that dialogue, there's only one kind of taste that can account for that: bad taste.
Image
User avatar
TheBaxter
Carlos Danger
 
Posts: 19227
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:00 pm

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby TheBaxter on Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:30 pm

Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:
max314 wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:i think a lot of what makes the prequels (especially parts I and II) so bad is the knowledge of what could have been. it's easy for any SW fan to go in with expectations of what they want to see and how they want to see it, and in that way it was kind of a no-win situation for lucas. which means maybe he shouldn't have done them at all. but if he was going to do them, he needed to ace them, and he didn't. he came close with ROTS, but honestly, nothing in the prequels lived up to what fans have lived with in their heads for 15-20 years prior. also, we didn't have spy sites and early reviews and stuff during the OT. everything hit us fresh and all at once, whereas with the prequels we had months and months to see every little bit of production design, hear about every new character and plot point, get early reviews, and debate and discuss it all with each other, so that by the time the actual film came out, it already felt played out. there's almost no way a film can hit you as a fan these days the way those original films did. since max wasn't a fan of the OT, that probably has a lot to do with why he's able to enjoy them more than the rest of us (though saying they are BETTER than the OT is going way too far).


I'm sure you think so.

Again, it's a natural consequence of growing up having fallen in love with the OT as a kid.

But I can assure you the OT is more crappy than fans would like to admit. And that the prequel trilogy has a lot more to offer than they'll admit.


and i can assure you you're 100% wrong about that,


I can assure you that you're wrong about that too.


and i can assure you' that you're wrong about me being wrong, and so on, and so on, til it becomes pointless and meaningless. which goes back to the point i made in the 2nd half of that post, which you left out, which is that making assurances about something that is a matter of opinion is meaningless. no one can assure anyone else that their opinion of a movie is wrong, because there is no objective measure for how good or crappy any movie it is. so making such an assurance is stupid.

Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote: A lot of the orgasmic worship of the OTs when a lot of these so called 'fans' come down to it and watch them with a clear head again, a lot of them realise from my reckoning or experience that these films, actually, aren't THAT great. It's the myth, the movies as a trilogy as a whole and the hype that they continue to be fueled with over time that can sometimes blur people's perceptions of them. When we all sit down all excited to watch them again or when we watched the Special Editions a the movies again, a lot of us realised yeah these movies are great but they're not THAT good. they're full of flaws and a lot of wasted plot time just running about shooting stormtroopers or chasing them on bikes which aren't up to much point etc., the acting's not that great, the story isn't either and is rather thin even. It took me ages on rewatches of Empire to like it like I do now and even NOW I admit it can be quite fucking boring sometimes. The first one isn't the most invigorating or immersing character wise. Jedi is just crap in many aspects too. Acing that makes you cringe or laugh unintentionally, a retread of the first one, a fucking puppet show when it should be serious, the worst acted of the lot, etc etc.


one can admit to all of that, and still believe the OT films are far superior than the PT. no one here is saying the OT films are THE GREATEST MOVIES EVER MADE!!!!!!!!!1111, just saying they're better than the prequels.

Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:A lot of my friends when they really sit down and re watch the films and judge them on their own, a lot of them realise how overhyped they are. One of my mates said the films are actually crap and preferred stuff like Jaws whilst I preferred Raiders.I reckon a lot of the there people who rant and rave about the good ol days of the OT, are blinded a lot about how 'awesome' they were.


i prefer both Jaws and Raiders too. but that has nothing to do with how the different SW films rank, or how the OT and PT films compare. and since i saw both jaws and raiders at about the same age as i saw the SW films, my 'nostalgia' factor would apply equally to those as well as the OT films.
Image
User avatar
TheBaxter
Carlos Danger
 
Posts: 19227
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:00 pm

Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Nachokoolaid on Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:40 pm

Max, it's like you and Kirk are one in the same. Or someone hired you to come and bring the Zone back to life. Because your blind love of some of the worst parts of the Star Wars universe seems like something that would get a rise out of folks and get them talking again. So for that, I salute you.

But I don't agree with ONE of your points. But to each his own.
User avatar
Nachokoolaid
THE DORK KNIGHT
 
Posts: 5588
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:00 am
Location: Gotham City

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby so sorry on Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:43 pm

Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote: A lot of the orgasmic worship of the OTs when a lot of these so called 'fans' come down to it and watch them with a clear head again, a lot of them realise from my reckoning or experience that these films, actually, aren't THAT great. It's the myth, the movies as a trilogy as a whole and the hype that they continue to be fueled with over time that can sometimes blur people's perceptions of them. When we all sit down all excited to watch them again or when we watched the Special Editions a the movies again, a lot of us realised yeah these movies are great but they're not THAT good. they're full of flaws and a lot of wasted plot time just running about shooting stormtroopers or chasing them on bikes which aren't up to much point etc., the acting's not that great, the story isn't either and is rather thin even. It took me ages on rewatches of Empire to like it like I do now and even NOW I admit it can be quite fucking boring sometimes. The first one isn't the most invigorating or immersing character wise. Jedi is just crap in many aspects too. Acing that makes you cringe or laugh unintentionally, a retread of the first one, a fucking puppet show when it should be serious, the worst acted of the lot, etc etc.


Dammit, I usually try and limit my "I couldn't agree more Kirks" posts to one a day, but after reading this... I couldn't agree more Kirks. That's twice today, consider yourself lucky.

I love the OT more for nostalgic reasons than the actual movies (although they are still fun romps). I didn't have the same emotional connection to any of the PT, so all the flaws in them I just couldn't overlook like I do with the OT. To me, the prequels are 90% GARBAGE. Cringe inducing garbage.
User avatar
so sorry
Deacon Blues
 
Posts: 15731
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:29 am

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:50 pm

TheBaxter wrote:i prefer both Jaws and Raiders too. but that has nothing to do with how the different SW films rank, or how the OT and PT films compare.


Nyeah it was just a measuring stick.

There's one thing that the PTs do have that the OTs don't though. They DO engage the brain more. Anyone agree with that?
User avatar
Cpt Kirks 2pay
The Dark Tower
 
Posts: 16617
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:49 am

Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby TheBaxter on Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:17 pm

to the extent that the prequels make me imagine a much better version of the story they were trying to tell, or to figure out how lucas could have fucked up those films so badly, i suppose in that sense the prequels engage my brains a bit more.
Image
User avatar
TheBaxter
Carlos Danger
 
Posts: 19227
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:00 pm

Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:25 pm

That's one! (Han Solo voice in ROTJ when he gets his friends cornily volunteering to be part of his Endor Team) Wonder who else will join in? Man that was corny cringeful scene.
User avatar
Cpt Kirks 2pay
The Dark Tower
 
Posts: 16617
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:49 am

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby max314 on Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:30 pm

RogueScribner wrote:How so? I'll give you ANH, the lines were pretty clearly drawn and dealt with simplistically. But that changed in TESB and ROTJ. There were lies and betrayal and emotional tugs of war while trying to sort it all out. Lando, Vader, Obi-Wan, Luke, Leia, and Han were all affected. They all had to make choices and then deal with the consequences. Lando betrayed his friend, but for the good of Cloud City. Obi-Wan lied to Luke, but in hopes of protecting him (and/or using Luke as a pawn to exact revenge on Vader). Yoda and Obi-Wan both felt Vader was irredeemable, but Luke didn't. Luke thought he could be saved. Han purposely let himself get caught by Boba Fett just so the world would see Leia in a gold bikini. The line between good and evil was drawn in ANH, smudged in TESB, and redrawn in ROTJ. That doesn't sound puerile to me. Do you think that's going to happen in the Transformers movies? I don't think so.


I don't think anything is going to happen in the Transformers movies that doesn't involve several tonnes of Semtex.

Don't give me that shit about Lando's tough choices. Vader was screwing Lando over so many time that he only had to tug on Lando's leash one more time before he became a full time cocksucker. There was no choice. And whatever happened beforehand, his conflict was too short-lived to be truly interesting.

Obi-Wan "lied" to Luke, sure. But this could have been anything from Lucas making an excuse for retconning his story's chronology for the sake of the sequels to a simple decision not to tell Luke the truth. Whatever the case, we don't see Ben beating himself up over it. It's not like sits with his hands in his palms asking God, "Why hast thou forsaken me?"

And the whole thing with Yoda and Obi-Wan's lost faith in Vader is only there to show Luke's youth, zeal and naiveté. It couldn't be a more All-American cliché. I don't see much conflict in Luke. He's one step off having his fingers in his ears while going, "La, la, la, la, laaaaa!! I can't hear you!!" as his two mentors make a pathetic attempt to discourage him from going to Bespin.

So yeah. Puerile. Underdeveloped. Fucking boring.

What I love about the shades of grey introduced by the prequels is best summed up in Anakin's dialogue while he and Padmé are travelling to Naboo.

"It must be difficult having sworn your life to the Jedi," says Padmé. "Not being able to visit the places you like or do the things you like..."

"Or be with the people I love," interrupts Anakin.

"Are you allowed to love? I thought that was forbidden for a Jedi."

"Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is essential to a Jedi's life." He almost laughs to himself as he discovers, "So you might say that we are encouraged to love."

Padmé shakes her head, "You've changed so much."

"You haven't changed a bit."

She looks at him.

"You're exactly the way I remember you in my dreams."

They share a tentative moment. Padmé turns back to her food, trying to force the moment to pass. But it's still there.

To me, that encapsulates the shades of grey that make the prequel trilogy - though particularly Clones - so great.

I mentioned several examples above of how unpredictable the OT was. The first time you watched ANH you expected Luke's aunt and uncle to die? For an entire planet to get blown up? For Han to cop a feel in the trash compactor? For Han to reappear at the last second and clear the way for Luke to destroy the Death Star? In TESB, did you expect the great Jedi master Obi-Wan spoke of to be a little green troll? For the cave the Falcon was hiding in to be a space slug? For Lando to betray his friend? For Han to be frozen? For Luke not to save the day, but need saving himself? For Vader to reveal that he was Luke's father? In ROTJ, did you expect Yoda to die? For him to confirm that Vader told the truth? For Obi-Wan to cop to lying, but then still tell Luke that Vader is a lost cause? To find out Leia is Luke's sister? For Vader to save Luke? For Vader to destroy the Emperor? For little teddy bears to topple an armed militia of Imperial troopers?

The OT is only predictable once you've watched it a bunch of times.

The PT is more densely plotted than the OT, but that works against it in that Lucas chose to start the story when Anakin was a little kid so the subsequent films felt like they were playing catch up to resolve all the necessary plot developments.


Luke's parents dying was harsh. Han's reappearance was awesome.

But that's was about it.

Yoda being a little green goblin was nice. The space slug was entertaining for about thirty seconds. Han being frozen was harsh. Vader's reveal was cool.

But that was about it.

Yoda's death was kinda sad (though it's kinda negated by the fact that he turns to ether). Vader turning back to the light was a good moment.

But that was about it.

The rest were either lame, predictable, or felt lazy.

And these are just moments. Cheap moments. There's very little significant and sustained emotional conflict throughout the original trilogy.

You're going to have to expound on that. I don't see how Luke suffered a "sudden and melodramatic character transition" at the end of ROTJ. The best thing about ROTJ was the arc between Luke/Vader/Palpatine (and the closing space battle, which still rivals anything in the PT).


I like it, don't get me wrong. But do we ever really believe Luke's gonna turn? He gets angry for a while and pulls himself back. As we expected.

Symptomatic of how inconsequential Luke's emotional conflict is in this trilogy. It reaches its peak in Jedi, but everything before it is just boring.

Seeds were planted, yes. But in a matter of seconds Anakin goes from being shocked that he just killed a Jedi master, to pledging loyalty to Palpatine and then slaughtering children without any qualms. He crept crept crept towards the dark side for so long and then without so much as a push just leapt over the line and that was that. There needed to be more of a moment, more of a showing that Anakin was actually thinking about what he was about to do and resigning himself to it. Instead we get:

"What have I done?!"

"Join me and destroy everything you've ever known."

"Okay."

"Excellent!"

Lame.


He's resolved to help Palpatine until he gets what he wants. He knows he's beyond redemption. No use repenting now. Pedal to the metal.

Jar Jar was compellingly drawn? Bail? Mace? Obi-Wan? Dooku?


Jar-Jar, Bail, Mace and Dooku are minor characters. I don't see why you're bringing them up. Dooku's no less one-dimensional in his villainy than the Emperor, Mace is Anakin's biggest skeptic within the Jedi Council, and Jar-Jar - like him or loathe him - enjoys a "God takes care of babies and fools" type story in Menace that I'm sure Lucas was hoping would play like a Forest Gump style subplot.

But yes, Obi-Wan was compellingly drawn. Unlike the OT, we actually see him go through his own emotional trials.

Bail gets about thirty seconds of screen time, so I don't know why the fuck you picked him.

Do you want to know the main difference between the PT and OT? The PT was motivated by matters of plot; the OT was motivated by matters of character. I'll take the latter every time.


Bull. Shit.

The Phantom Menace was about a young Queen who believes in peace who tries to avoid war at all costs, but learns that - sometimes - war is unavoidable and learns to become a general.

Attack of the Clones is about a young, impetuous Padawan who must deal with his conflicting desires between being a good Jedi and being to the woman he loves.

Revenge of the Sith is about a Jedi Knight's fall from grace after years of inner turmoil come to a head when the woman he loves has her life threatened, and he is unable to let go of an attachment he should never have formed.

That's character-driven, mon frère.

You want plot-driven?

Try A New Hope, with some whiny farmboy's mission to get some plans to some princess. Or The Empire Strikes Back where the whiny farmboy and his palls are running away from big baddies. And once you're done with that, check out Return of the Jedi - it's about whiny farmboy and friends blowing up a big ship.

Yeah, I know there's more to it than that. But not a whole lot.

Too bad awful dialogue and wooden performances and video game action scenes made that entry feel the least Star Wars out of any of the series.


"The least Star Wars"?

What the fucking hell does that even mean?

Awkward performances and dialogue are a staple of the saga. At least Attack of the Clones had a story worth telling.
Last edited by max314 on Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Weapon of MAX Destruction
User avatar
max314
MONKEY BUTLER
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:06 pm

Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby max314 on Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:33 pm

TheBaxter wrote:you actually, seriously, consider that to be "good dialogue"????

i'm trying to be real understanding here, but how anyone could find those atrocious lines to be good is beyond me. i mean, you may as well be talking in Farsi at this point. i'm willing to account for different people having different tastes, but to like that dialogue, there's only one kind of taste that can account for that: bad taste.


Evidently.
Weapon of MAX Destruction
User avatar
max314
MONKEY BUTLER
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:06 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Movie Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron