The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

New movies! Old movies! B-movies! Discuss discuss discuss!!!

Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby max314 on Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:37 pm

Nachokoolaid wrote:Max, it's like you and Kirk are one in the same. Or someone hired you to come and bring the Zone back to life.


Must be one or the other. Because we couldn't possibly just happen to agree with one another. That would just be outlandish.

Because your blind love of some of the worst parts of the Star Wars universe seems like something that would get a rise out of folks and get them talking again. So for that, I salute you.

But I don't agree with ONE of your points. But to each his own.


Good thing OT fans aren't guilty of "blind love," eh? ;)
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Re: The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

Postby max314 on Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:46 pm

Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:There's one thing that the PTs do have that the OTs don't though. They DO engage the brain more. Anyone agree with that?


Pew, pew, pew.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:49 pm

Dunno about you guys but predicatibility was so classicly there.

Good guys win, bad guys don't. Good guys live, bad guys don't.

Don't kid me about any of this. We all know that whatever happens the good guys aren't gonna get killed in this or that ramatic situation and no matter how scared we might be of the bad guys, they ARE gonna fall in the end and will die. The only question we have to these plot points is - how? Just like a Bond movie. HOW are the good guys gonna get out of this situation? How are the bad guys gonna finally die even though they're kicking ass throughout?

Don't bollox me about about Obi Wan dieing - he's the exception.

Do we think that Luke, Han, Leia are gonan die? NEVER!! This is STAR WARS!! Of course not! All is well.

We don't have that in the PT. Yeah I know that we know the outcome in the end 'cos it's a prequel, but if we didn't have this luxury we'd be a lot less certain about their fates.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:51 pm

max314 wrote:
Nachokoolaid wrote:Max, it's like you and Kirk are one in the same. Or someone hired you to come and bring the Zone back to life.


Must be one or the other. Because we couldn't possibly just happen to agree with one another. That would just be outlandish.

Because your blind love of some of the worst parts of the Star Wars universe seems like something that would get a rise out of folks and get them talking again. So for that, I salute you.

But I don't agree with ONE of your points. But to each his own.


Good thing OT fans aren't guilty of "blind love," eh? ;)


Bahahaaa!!! THAT"S the term I've been looking for to explain all that overrated love for those films. Got it, at last.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Fried Gold on Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:53 pm

To say that Attack of the Clones is a well executed film is a very odd thing indeed.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:58 pm

Fried Gold wrote:To say that Attack of the Clones is a well executed film is a very odd thing indeed.


It's the Star Trek Wequel that should be well executed and put t death. Death by death stick overdose it should be done by. AOTC Stylee oh yeeeeaaaaahhhhh!!!!!!!
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby max314 on Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:06 pm

Fried Gold wrote:To say that Attack of the Clones is a well executed film is a very odd thing indeed.


After a decade of nothing but vitriol against the prequel trilogy, I bet it sounds very fucking odd to hear someone say they liked it.

First problem is that the most vocal people were the hardcore OT fans who generally hated the fact that the prequels didn't live up to the expectation of films they saw as kids through rose-tinted glasses, when just about anything half decent passed as a good film. Star Wars was so out there in terms of its scope and visual spectacle that it became the defining classic for many.

Second problem is that OT non-fans would probably not bother with the prequels. I almost didn't. But I'm glad I did. There's so much more to the prequels than people seem to think. The dialogue is no less cheesy, the performances are no less hammy, but there is more to the story. So it gets eaten alive.

Fact is that Attack of the Clones is the best Star Wars film ever made.

Revenge of the Sith is more flawed, but it's also more passionate.

Frankly, they're the only two in the saga really worth watching.

How's that for odd?
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Hermanator X on Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:16 pm

To be completely honest, last time i was back in england, moving stuff from my old apartment, i had a quiet period when aotc was on sky movies. it may as well have been stormbreakers 2. it was an embarrassment and purely background fluff. absolute shite. im sorry if i dont go into more detail, but its just woeful to sit through. as for motivations or anything similar to them, its all just pooh. a series of images with nothing to supporty it. the image of padme fake running up up a fake sand dune nonchalantly expresses more than i ever could. so im outta here, later.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Fried Gold on Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:25 pm

max314 wrote:
Fried Gold wrote:To say that Attack of the Clones is a well executed film is a very odd thing indeed.


After a decade of nothing but vitriol against the prequel trilogy, I bet it sounds very fucking odd to hear someone say they liked it.

First problem is that the most vocal people were the hardcore OT fans who generally hated the fact that the prequels didn't live up to the expectation of films they saw as kids through rose-tinted glasses, when just about anything half decent passed as a good film. Star Wars was so out there in terms of its scope and visual spectacle that it became the defining classic for many.

Second problem is that OT non-fans would probably not bother with the prequels. I almost didn't. But I'm glad I did. There's so much more to the prequels than people seem to think. The dialogue is no less cheesy, the performances are no less hammy, but there is more to the story. So it gets eaten alive.

Fact is that Attack of the Clones is the best Star Wars film ever made.

Revenge of the Sith is more flawed, but it's also more passionate.

Frankly, they're the only two in the saga really worth watching.

How's that for odd?

It's about time some we had some more comedy-character posters on the Zone again.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Fried Gold on Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:27 pm

Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:
Fried Gold wrote:To say that Attack of the Clones is a well executed film is a very odd thing indeed.


It's the Star Trek Wequel that should be well executed and put t death. Death by death stick overdose it should be done by. AOTC Stylee oh yeeeeaaaaahhhhh!!!!!!!

You'd only like it if Ingmar Bergman was making it.

In black and white.

With Leonard Nimoy playing an elderly Vulcan who teaches some underpriviliged Klingon youths about the wonders of nature.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Fievel on Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:36 pm

Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:
Fried Gold wrote:To say that Attack of the Clones is a well executed film is a very odd thing indeed.


It's the Star Trek Wequel that should be well executed and put t death. Death by death stick overdose it should be done by. AOTC Stylee oh yeeeeaaaaahhhhh!!!!!!!



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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby TheBaxter on Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:02 pm

max314 wrote:Fact is that Attack of the Clones is the best Star Wars film ever made.


well, if you're going to start citing "facts" then i assume you have proof? let's see it then.

actually, nevermind. once someone starts stating it as a "fact" that any one movie is better than another, that's when you know for sure they are full of shit. opinions can't be facts, no matter how much you wish them to be.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:23 pm

TheBaxter wrote:
max314 wrote:Fact is that Attack of the Clones is the best Star Wars film ever made.


well, if you're going to start citing "facts" then i assume you have proof? let's see it then.

actually, nevermind. once someone starts stating it as a "fact" that any one movie is better than another, that's when you know for sure they are full of shit. opinions can't be facts, no matter how much you wish them to be.


No they can't, from a certain point of view - but leave the fuck off of calling Max full of shit, Bax. You're out of line.

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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Fievel on Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:22 pm

Regardless, the fact that Star Wars has become a hot topic of debate on The Zone has given me a boner for the better part of the day.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby King Psyz on Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:42 pm

OK fine, you brought me in...

Max, you have access to some fine pharmasuticals I take it and just becareful, we wouldn't want our best new poster to up and OD Chris Farley style now would we?

Empire Strikes Back is not only the best Star Wars films, it's one of the best Sci Fi films of all time. Right up there with 2001. AOTC on the other hand had some cool moments, but honestly there was so much missing. Frankly the Phantom Mennace should have been scrapped or been the first 30 minutes of AOTC. AOTC set up everything nicely, but had to rush too many plotlines forward.

Had AOTC been the first in the trillogy, the plot lines formed could have had another film to breathe and complete naturally. As it stands Lucas covered farr too much in a short ammount of time and the series as a whole suffered. Jango Fett introduced as the farm for stormtroopers? Interesting (although Lucas' insistance on linking every fucking part of the OT to the PT got tiresome right about here). Killing him off an hour later? ZERO FUCKING IMPACT.

Worse still is the Clone Wars series(s) have shown us what the second film could and should have been. Just replace the usless Dooku with a more menacing Maul leaving his death for the final film, not a throw away death like Dooku got.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Fievel on Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:01 pm

I'll never get the love for ESB as the best Star Wars film.

The original Star Wars, or A New Hope, always gets my vote for the best. ESB is revered as the best Star Wars film by so many, but I don't see why. To me, it's not even a complete film. It can't stand on its own without Episodes 4 & 6 to set it up and resolve it. Really breaking it down, it's just a series of brief moments put together into one movie. Whereas the original Star Wars is a complete movie from start to end. I have little love for Return of the Jedi, so I won't comment on that.
As a middle act, it serves its purpose quite well - going off of what was told in the first film and setting things up (to be fucked up by Ewoks) for the final film. But the best SW movie ever? Why? Because it ends on a down note? There's still the standard clunky dialogue and acting (see Luke on Dagobah) that every Star Wars movie is cursed with. I just don't see the justification for calling it the best. Now if we saw Bossk, 4-LOM and IG-88 in action, I may get the love. But they're just props in a single scene. Boo. Ugnaughts? Jawa actors gotta work too, I guess (see "Ewoks"). And Lobot should have known kung-fu or something. That would have been tits.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby King Psyz on Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:38 pm

I think it could work on it's own, it's throwing you in the middle of a conflict and you can quickly gather the situation based of the interactions.

It's almost like a war movie, in space, justifying for me anyway the pressence of Wars in the titles. In the first and to an extent movie of the trillogy they were more skirmishes or small rebellions. But the attack on Hoth was epic and you got an idea of how many fronts this war must be fought on to have that kind of specialised equipment, while understanding the rebels were adapting to where ever they could.

It's pretty much people way in over their heads for the entire duration, which adds tension not seen elsewhere. In New Hope Luke and crew had Obi Wan for the first half and the established Rebellion Forces for experience in the Death Star attack. But in Empire everyone is seperated from their support structure and it shows. Han and company having to float in garbage, fly into an asteroid field, and eventually walk into the hands of their enemy and get captured. Luke is alone aside from a little cantakerous green guy who shows little faith in him and tells him to ignore his instincts, friends be damned.

But then it gets shittier when Han gets captured, CP-30 gets demolished, and Luke not only finds out he's the spawn of their Galaxy's Dick Cheney/Satan, but looses his hand in the process too.

The fact that is ended on this note sealed the deal for me as a kid that not every movie ended with the bad guy defeated and it blew my little mind. And today it still stands up for me.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby TheBaxter on Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:28 pm

Fievel wrote:I'll never get the love for ESB as the best Star Wars film.

The original Star Wars, or A New Hope, always gets my vote for the best. ESB is revered as the best Star Wars film by so many, but I don't see why. To me, it's not even a complete film. It can't stand on its own without Episodes 4 & 6 to set it up and resolve it. Really breaking it down, it's just a series of brief moments put together into one movie. Whereas the original Star Wars is a complete movie from start to end. I have little love for Return of the Jedi, so I won't comment on that.
As a middle act, it serves its purpose quite well - going off of what was told in the first film and setting things up (to be fucked up by Ewoks) for the final film. But the best SW movie ever? Why? Because it ends on a down note? There's still the standard clunky dialogue and acting (see Luke on Dagobah) that every Star Wars movie is cursed with. I just don't see the justification for calling it the best. Now if we saw Bossk, 4-LOM and IG-88 in action, I may get the love. But they're just props in a single scene. Boo. Ugnaughts? Jawa actors gotta work too, I guess (see "Ewoks"). And Lobot should have known kung-fu or something. That would have been tits.


i have to agree with this. ESB has always been my least favorite of the OT (yes, even less favorite than ROTJ) because if felt incomplete. i don't mind a dark ending... but at least HAVE an ending. ESB always felt like it just sorta picked a point and stopped there, with no resolution. obviously, the resolution comes in the next film, but taken as a standalone, ESB wasn't very satisfying. i never cared much for the dagobah scenes either. or the han-leia romance, though it's still miles better than the anakin-padme romance in the PT, but that's not really saying much. IV is a complete film, VI is spotty but has a great beginning and a great ending, V is some great moments with a lot of tiresome filler in between.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby magicmonkey on Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:35 am

I gotta say I always thought "Empire" was a filler movie... it's kind of a variety rollercoaster, up, down, left , right... woahh! Having said all that I do think it has the best dialogue, which to some, I presume, raises it above the others as a transcendence of hokey sci-fi, a classical buccaneer movie in space. It's also the biggest cocktease of an ending, a cockblock of epic proportions. A humbling blow to all that is good and holy.

A New Hope is all about discovery, mapping out territory, exploring it and escaping it or blowing it up.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Seppuku on Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:47 am

I loved the lack of resolution at the end of Empire. Watching those movies in the cinema, you leave the theatre wanting to immediately see the next instalment. And that blue balls feeling is what made so many younger fans so damn giddy about those movies back in 1980. They had three years to play out just where the hell it was supposed to go from there.

The original Star Wars may click more as a single movie (although I find it kind of subdued watching it today), but not so much as a fantastic Universe. We get the addition of Yoda, Darth Vader becomes more than just a dude with a black potty on his head, the Imperial Walkers. Considering most people's argument to Max about why the Original Trilogy beat the Prequels hinged on "execution," that could apply to why Empire beats Star Wars, too. I love the pacing of Empire- the lulls of Dagobah after the crazy first 40 minutes. If Empire had been just another stand-alone movie more in the vein of the first one, there's no way we'd be having this conversation now. This thread wouldn't even exist.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby RogueScribner on Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:13 am

max314 wrote:I like it, don't get me wrong. But do we ever really believe Luke's gonna turn? He gets angry for a while and pulls himself back. As we expected.

Symptomatic of how inconsequential Luke's emotional conflict is in this trilogy. It reaches its peak in Jedi, but everything before it is just boring.


So did you really believe Anakin was going to arrest Palpatine? Save the Jedi? Live with Padme happily ever after? No? Well, I guess that made ROTS predictable, too. We all knew Anakin was going to become Vader, so what was with all that pussyfooting around for 3 movies, right? His inner conflict was boring.

But I'm guessing you're going to disagree with that and give me reasons why and somehow your reasoning that supports the PT won't apply to the OT. Because it just sucks. It's a fact. You said so. :roll:

Luke being overwhelmed with hate and absolutely wailing on Vader is one of the more powerful moments in the saga. He was on the brink, but he pulled himself back. And that's something Anakin could never do.

Knowing someone isn't going to do something doesn't automatically make their journey pointless and boring. In fact, watching them get close and overcoming their baser instincts to do the right thing can be awfully compelling. It isn't the "what" so much as the "how." I can watch the end duel in ROTJ repeatedly and never grow tired of it precisely because of those emotional underpinnings. Technically it isn't the best fight, but technique can only take you so far. The duel in TPM was full of fancy technique and I loved watching it the first few times. But Maul wasn't a developed character and that fight ultimately had little bearing on anything so there was nothing else to cling to to keep me invested in it. In fact, the fight was pretty arbitrary since all the real action was occurring elsewhere. Same thing with the Yoda/Dooku fight and the Yoda/Palpatine fight. Lots of spectacle, but that's about it. And I may have been invested more in the Obi-Wan/Anakin duel had they had a properly developed relationship prior. We get hints at a friendship, but there was no real meat to it. All the good stuff apparently happened off screen. So while on an intellectual level I can understand the drama behind their fight, emotionally, I could really give a fuck.

The thing the main cast had in the OT was chemistry. Chemistry goes a long way to sell cheesy dialogue and reinforce the relationships we're supposed to care about. In the PT, it seemed like everyone was acting in a different movie and all but Ian McDiarmid's sucked. Obi-Wan and Anakin didn't click. Padme and Anakin didn't click. Palpatine and Anakin clicked okay. Yoda clicked okay with everyone. Jar-Jar didn't click with anyone (except maybe Ani). Qui-Gon clicked well with everyone, but he died in the first prequel. So the PT was replete with people who didn't work well together and as a consequence it harder to buy into the cheese Lucas so loves to pour on. People loved the characters in the OT, bit players or main cast. Who do people go crazy over in the PT?
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:24 am

RogueScribner wrote:
max314 wrote:I like it, don't get me wrong. But do we ever really believe Luke's gonna turn? He gets angry for a while and pulls himself back. As we expected.

Symptomatic of how inconsequential Luke's emotional conflict is in this trilogy. It reaches its peak in Jedi, but everything before it is just boring.


So did you really believe Anakin was going to arrest Palpatine? Save the Jedi? Live with Padme happily ever after? No? Well, I guess that made ROTS predictable, too. We all knew Anakin was going to become Vader, so what was with all that pussyfooting around for 3 movies, right? His inner conflict was boring.

But I'm guessing you're going to disagree with that and give me reasons why and somehow your reasoning that supports the PT won't apply to the OT. Because it just sucks. It's a fact. You said so. :roll:

Luke being overwhelmed with hate and absolutely wailing on Vader is one of the more powerful moments in the saga. He was on the brink, but he pulled himself back. And that's something Anakin could never do.

Knowing someone isn't going to do something doesn't automatically make their journey pointless and boring. In fact, watching them get close and overcoming their baser instincts to do the right thing can be awfully compelling. It isn't the "what" so much as the "how." I can watch the end duel in ROTJ repeatedly and never grow tired of it precisely because of those emotional underpinnings. Technically it isn't the best fight, but technique can only take you so far. The duel in TPM was full of fancy technique and I loved watching it the first few times. But Maul wasn't a developed character and that fight ultimately had little bearing on anything so there was nothing else to cling to to keep me invested in it. In fact, the fight was pretty arbitrary since all the real action was occurring elsewhere. Same thing with the Yoda/Dooku fight and the Yoda/Palpatine fight. Lots of spectacle, but that's about it. And I may have been invested more in the Obi-Wan/Anakin duel had they had a properly developed relationship prior. We get hints at a friendship, but there was no real meat to it. All the good stuff apparently happened off screen. So while on an intellectual level I can understand the drama behind their fight, emotionally, I could really give a fuck.

The thing the main cast had in the OT was chemistry. Chemistry goes a long way to sell cheesy dialogue and reinforce the relationships we're supposed to care about. In the PT, it seemed like everyone was acting in a different movie and all but Ian McDiarmid's sucked. Obi-Wan and Anakin didn't click. Padme and Anakin didn't click. Palpatine and Anakin clicked okay. Yoda clicked okay with everyone. Jar-Jar didn't click with anyone (except maybe Ani). Qui-Gon clicked well with everyone, but he died in the first prequel. So the PT was replete with people who didn't work well together and as a consequence it harder to buy into the cheese Lucas so loves to pour on. People loved the characters in the OT, bit players or main cast. Who do people go crazy over in the PT?



Raises hand slowly and shyly....

They go crazy over me?! :oops: My OFFSCREEN characters of Tree Person Pod Race Pit Crew Member from TPM and Alien that was the same species as the Cantina Band, on the ship from Coruscant to Naboo in AOTC?

What? You said the best stuff happened offscreen! :oops:

See? Now I am the reason why the PTs are better than the OTs. Now THAT'S the truth!!!!!! Can YOU handle THAT?!?!?!? :evil:
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Doc Holliday on Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:47 am

I don't think the PT was the travesty people enjoy making it out to be. The first two films were okay - whole chunks of Phantom were considerably better than that. ROTS was a good film. Very good, in places. What the OT had over the PT, aside from fortune in casting the likes of Ford, was the fact that no-one had seen a film like that before. The villain was original and iconic. The effects represented a major jump forward over all that had gone before it. It wasn't simply the acting, nor the story that left people 'wowed' as they left the theatres - it was the whole experience. That is going to be very hard to replicate, for any film. Maybe the great white elephant that is the upcoming change in 3-D will be the next major shift. Maybe not. The last film I can think of to affect audiences in that Star Wars way, was the first Matrix film. And that trilogy couldn't even match itself for the remaining two films, let alone a further prequel trilogy.

Is the PT on a par with the OT? Of course not. Did it rape our childhoods? Not really - maybe an inappropriate rub as it brushed past, but no more than that.

And some of you, for all your protestations on the outside, secretly enjoyed it.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby max314 on Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:10 am

Doc Holliday wrote:I don't think the PT was the travesty people enjoy making it out to be. The first two films were okay - whole chunks of Phantom were considerably better than that. ROTS was a good film. Very good, in places. What the OT had over the PT, aside from fortune in casting the likes of Ford, was the fact that no-one had seen a film like that before. The villain was original and iconic. The effects represented a major jump forward over all that had gone before it. It wasn't simply the acting, nor the story that left people 'wowed' as they left the theatres - it was the whole experience. That is going to be very hard to replicate, for any film. Maybe the great white elephant that is the upcoming change in 3-D will be the next major shift. Maybe not. The last film I can think of to affect audiences in that Star Wars way, was the first Matrix film. And that trilogy couldn't even match itself for the remaining two films, let alone a further prequel trilogy.


While The Matrix is a seminal work, I still think that Relaoded and Revolutions (which are really just a single four-hour narrative to which the first film serves as a set up and origin story) are (post)modern science fiction masterpieces.

Again, with expectations set impossibly high and with everyone having preconceived notions of where that trilogy should/could have gone, people felt let down. Though Reloaded is still generally considered a good film. Personally, I think all three represent the biggest achievement in cinematic sci-fi since 2001 and Blade Runner.

Is the PT on a par with the OT? Of course not. Did it rape our childhoods? Not really - maybe an inappropriate rub as it brushed past, but no more than that.

And some of you, for all your protestations on the outside, secretly enjoyed it.


I suspect they do :D


Regarding the best OT film, I also get the most joy out of the original Star Wars (a.k.a. A New Hope). It functions as a complete narrative, has some entertaining character interplay between Luke and Han (which was sorely missing in both sequels), and had a fist-pumping conclusion. The first hour may have been rather arduous, but it does become bearable after about thirty minutes. The second hour is actually pretty entertaining in that classic, swashbuckling adventure movie sense.

King Psyz wrote:OK fine, you brought me in...

Max, you have access to some fine pharmasuticals I take it and just becareful, we wouldn't want our best new poster to up and OD Chris Farley style now would we?


Flattery will get you everywhere. Including getting away with saying that I must be on something :D

Empire Strikes Back is not only the best Star Wars films, it's one of the best Sci Fi films of all time. Right up there with 2001. AOTC on the other hand had some cool moments, but honestly there was so much missing. Frankly the Phantom Mennace should have been scrapped or been the first 30 minutes of AOTC. AOTC set up everything nicely, but had to rush too many plotlines forward.


I'm afraid I disagree with you about Empire. But you already know that. As someone said earlier, it feels like filler. And not particularly exciting filler at that.

As I said before, the biggest problem of The Phantom Menace is the way in which it attempts to balance too many storylines; despite what you might think, this is not an error made in Attack of the Clones because we're only actually following TWO storylines (i.e. Anakin protecting Amidala, Obi-Wan tracking the assassin), both of which intersect and resolve themselves pretty organically with the birth of the Clone War.

Had AOTC been the first in the trillogy, the plot lines formed could have had another film to breathe and complete naturally. As it stands Lucas covered farr too much in a short ammount of time and the series as a whole suffered. Jango Fett introduced as the farm for stormtroopers? Interesting (although Lucas' insistance on linking every fucking part of the OT to the PT got tiresome right about here). Killing him off an hour later? ZERO FUCKING IMPACT.


I actually enjoyed that link to the OT. It made perfect sense that the galaxy's greatest gunslinger would end up being the genetic model upon which the Republic's supply of clone troops would be built.

Worse still is the Clone Wars series(s) have shown us what the second film could and should have been. Just replace the usless Dooku with a more menacing Maul leaving his death for the final film, not a throw away death like Dooku got.


Dooku's death wasn't really throwaway though, was it? It's Anakin taking another step toward the dark side. It's a pretty powerful reaffirmation that Anakin is losing his soul piece by piece to the point that he's able to kill in cold blood.

Thus it's actually critical to Anakin's arc.


Sorry I can't reply to everyone right now, but I'm swamped with work for the next 4-5 weeks. I shouldn't even be here now :lol:
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Seppuku on Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:46 am

max314 wrote:While The Matrix is a seminal work, I still think that Relaoded and Revolutions (which are really just a single four-hour narrative to which the first film serves as a set up and origin story) are (post)modern science fiction masterpieces.

Again, with expectations set impossibly high and with everyone having preconceived notions of where that trilogy should/could have gone, people felt let down. Though Reloaded is still generally considered a good film. Personally, I think all three represent the biggest achievement in cinematic sci-fi since 2001 and Blade Runner.


Sorry I can't reply to everyone right now, but I'm swamped with work for the next 4-5 weeks. I shouldn't even be here now :lol:



I thought talking about the Wachowski Bros' movies was your work. :wink:

(I'm glad you did start posting on non-Wacho threads. This place needed a kick in the arse!).
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby TheBaxter on Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:13 am

Doc Holliday wrote:And some of you, for all your protestations on the outside, secretly enjoyed it.


that's a bit of a straw man. i don't remember anyone here saying they didn't enjoy some or all of the PT films. saying they are seriously flawed, could have been much better, and are lesser films than the OT, doesn't preclude anyone from enjoying them. there are plenty of films i enjoy despite their flaws. in fact, pretty much every film has some flaws, but i'm a nitpicky sort so i always notice those things i think could've been better. i enjoyed all the PT films when i first saw them, some less so as time goes by. the only film i don't really enjoy these days is TPM. and yet i still watch it if i'm trying to watch the whole series, just to be complete. it's kind of like the boring girl you have to take out to dinner and listen to her prattle on boringly for an hour or two, so that you can get into her pants. you don't want to do it, but you have to if you want to get to the good stuff.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby max314 on Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:33 am

Seppuku wrote:I thought talking about the Wachowski Bros' movies was your work. :wink:


Excuse me - I prefer the term "labour of love."

(I'm glad you did start posting on non-Wacho threads. This place needed a kick in the arse!).


WHACK!!

:lol:

TheBaxter wrote:that's a bit of a straw man. i don't remember anyone here saying they didn't enjoy some or all of the PT films. saying they are seriously flawed, could have been much better, and are lesser films than the OT, doesn't preclude anyone from enjoying them. there are plenty of films i enjoy despite their flaws. in fact, pretty much every film has some flaws, but i'm a nitpicky sort so i always notice those things i think could've been better. i enjoyed all the PT films when i first saw them, some less so as time goes by. the only film i don't really enjoy these days is TPM. and yet i still watch it if i'm trying to watch the whole series, just to be complete. it's kind of like the boring girl you have to take out to dinner and listen to her prattle on boringly for an hour or two, so that you can get into her pants. you don't want to do it, but you have to if you want to get to the good stuff.


This is why we have prostitutes.

Though I don't see how this would work in Star Wars land. Maybe pay George Lucas to rewrite The Phantom Menace?

My word, I do believe I just called George Lucas a whore. He's probably used to that by now.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:12 pm

Doc Holliday wrote:I don't think the PT was the travesty people enjoy making it out to be. The first two films were okay - whole chunks of Phantom were considerably better than that. ROTS was a good film. Very good, in places. What the OT had over the PT, aside from fortune in casting the likes of Ford, was the fact that no-one had seen a film like that before. The villain was original and iconic. The effects represented a major jump forward over all that had gone before it. It wasn't simply the acting, nor the story that left people 'wowed' as they left the theatres - it was the whole experience. That is going to be very hard to replicate, for any film. Maybe the great white elephant that is the upcoming change in 3-D will be the next major shift. Maybe not. The last film I can think of to affect audiences in that Star Wars way, was the first Matrix film. And that trilogy couldn't even match itself for the remaining two films, let alone a further prequel trilogy.

Is the PT on a par with the OT? Of course not. Did it rape our childhoods? Not really - maybe an inappropriate rub as it brushed past, but no more than that.

And some of you, for all your protestations on the outside, secretly enjoyed it.


Very good and fresh points, Doc. But how are you with a sword? A lazer sword?

Well as little I thought of AOTC I did actually see it in NZ 5 times - and that was ME going OUT of my WAY to see it. So it must have done something right. Fact is, is that that film is very enjoyable actually. Sure it is bring a bit in the middle part, but the exhileration of the beginning and end of the film always give it the rush it needs.

ROTS I still think is underwhelming. Yeah it IS dramatic and gripping with it's dark decline and showing Anakin's rotting of the soul, but it's not that grandstanding masterpiece that we all were rightly expecting it to be.

TPM isn't as boring to watch as it used to be for me. I actually DO find that Jar Jar is a character that DOES bring it to life more than we give him credit for. Imagine the DULLNESS the film woulda have been if it was just Qui Goi and Obi Wan nearly falling asleep with their delivery all the time as the ONLY presence on screen.

But I also think it's the nature of things that when something first comes out and blows us away, the circumstances that are in place for it's return - whatever it may be, art form or anything else that grabs society's attention - will not be the same and therefore as Doc points out, the lightning in a bottle is hard to be replicated twice. It was inevitable that other movies since the original SW had, because of SW itself, now come so far themselves with the technology available, that the return of SW had a lot of competition that it had to overtake - and that is something that it can't always do. Plus George has got to be GENUINE with the movies and stories. He can't just go and think 'I need to up this or make this bigger and badder or more intense just 'cos so and so film could have this or that going for it as well' as then he is betraying the purity of the story he's telling. To an extent he can up the ante, but if he does it too much, then he's no longer being true.

But simply put, the stories for the new trilogy I could just tell way off before the movies even came out, were just not gonna be as popular as the OTees. Again, more complex stories where things are neither her nor there to the audience, not so classic good guy beats bad guy, good vs evil as the Otees, things not as clear cut. The PTs never had the clarity and easy to describe objectives and if you had to describe the story of each movie to a kid, you'd have a much harder time summing up the prequel films individually the you would parts 4-6. Anyway, I'm blah blah-ing and repeating myself. Yeah it wasn't just the complexity that could put some people off, it was the delivery and direction. I just think that the BLUEPRINT, the initial PREMISE for the new movies were just gonna be a more difficult sell to the general movie going public. I mean, after all that mess that I described earlier above - the story has a basic unhappy ending.

Oh well, here's to the PREQUEL to the Prequels. The Discovery of the Force and the Jedi vs Sith Wars, eh? ALREADY from that premise, I KNOW ( :wink: ) that we got better films on our hands! YAY.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Nachokoolaid on Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:23 am

A kickass Knights of the Old Republic movie would be welcomed by me.

max, are you sure you didn't read my favorite movie list and are just trying to contradict me? Reloaded better than the original Matrix? WHAT!?!? Seriously, could you explain that a bit?

But I do agree with your like of A New Hope (although it's my fave Star Wars film, and it's just your fave of the OT. But still... at least that's part of an agreement).
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby King Psyz on Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:11 am

Max, while I am enjoying the newly reignighted discourse here, one thing.

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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby max314 on Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:24 am

Nachokoolaid wrote:A kickass Knights of the Old Republic movie would be welcomed by me.


The premise is enticing, but coming up with an interesting narrative is the real challenge.

max, are you sure you didn't read my favorite movie list and are just trying to contradict me?


I also have a camera installed in the light fixture. You're so peaceful when you sleep.

Reloaded better than the original Matrix? WHAT!?!? Seriously, could you explain that a bit?


I don't think Reloaded is "better" than the original Matrix any more than I think the second act of 2001: A Space Odyssey is "better" than the first act.

The theme of the trilogy is about unity. Balance.

Whether you look at the composition of the Wachowskis' frames (their frames divide into quadrants as opposed to the conventional rule of thirds), the nature of their dialogue ("if the employee has a problem, the company has a problem", "we need Machines and they need us", "without purpose, we would not exist," "it is inevitable", "you didn't come here to make the choice - you've already made it", "everything that has a beginning has an end", "we do only what we're meant to do", "what happened happened and couldn't have happened any other way", "this is the nature of the universe - we struggle against it, we fight to deny it, but it is of course pretence, it is a lie", etc), or the progression of their narrative (cyberpunk, unity of Man and Machine, Neo's increasing penetration of the Machine world, Smith's increasing humanisation, programs displaying human qualities, humans and programs working together toward the same goal, peace between Man and Machine, etc). While the first film in the trilogy stresses the importance of self-actualisation as a first step to enlightenment, it is not the end of the journey. True enlightenment only comes when Neo realises that he is a part of the cosmos - not above it. And like all parts of the cosmos, he has a direction. A purpose. Karma.

His enlightenment finally comes when he accepts his place in the universe: "You were right Smith. You were always right. It was inevitable."

That's why I see the trilogy is a single, thematically unified work as opposed to something separate. But why I think of them as a collective masterpiece? Well, that's for another thread :wink:

But I do agree with your like of A New Hope (although it's my fave Star Wars film, and it's just your fave of the OT. But still... at least that's part of an agreement).


Star Wars (1977) works as a solid action adventure movie. Yes, the stuff with the droids in the desert puts the "ring" in "boring", but at least it picks up after the first thirty minutes, and the last hour is pretty damn entertaining.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby max314 on Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:25 am

King Psyz wrote:Max, while I am enjoying the newly reignighted discourse here, one thing.

Opinion Fact

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I respect your opinion :wink:
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby King Psyz on Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:08 am

AND THAT'S A FACT JACK
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Fried Gold on Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:17 pm

You can prove anything with opinions.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Al Shut on Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:31 pm

As long as nobody forgets that my two cents are more worth than your two cents because they're Eurocents
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Seppuku on Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:44 pm

Al Shut wrote:As long as nobody forgets that my two cents are more worth than your two cents because they're Eurocents


The Pound is still worth more than the Euro (though the way things are going, not for long), but your Eurocents are definitely worth a lot more than Max's non-cents.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Al Shut on Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:52 pm

Not to mention that the pound is easily beaten by the kilogramm

And to say something to the topic at hand every Star Wars movie that has living Teddy Bears (Ewoks) beats all the others.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Peven on Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:53 pm

Seppuku wrote:
Al Shut wrote:As long as nobody forgets that my two cents are more worth than your two cents because they're Eurocents


The Pound is still worth more than the Euro (though the way things are going, not for long), but your Eurocents are definitely worth a lot more than Max's non-cents.



that is it, its a wrap, "Pun of the Year" award is now a lock........
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Al Shut on Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:01 pm

As a more serious contribution and speaking as gernerally as possible I think that the OT strik a different tone than the PT, a tone that makes it easier to look past any possible flaws.
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Postby travis-dane on Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:28 pm

The OT has "soul", the PT is cold and dead, just like the Emperor's balls.
Just my opinion.
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Re:

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:29 pm

travis-dane wrote:The OT has "soul", the PT is cold and dead, just like the Emperor's balls.
Just my opinion.


Yes it does have a monotone mood. Jedis or no Jedis.

The Clone Wars cartoons proved that there could be excitement in mood in these films, so there is no excuse.
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Re: Re:

Postby Fried Gold on Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:17 pm

Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:
travis-dane wrote:The OT has "soul", the PT is cold and dead, just like the Emperor's balls.
Just my opinion.


Yes it does have a monotone mood. Jedis or no Jedis.

The Clone Wars cartoons proved that there could be excitement in mood in these films, so there is no excuse.

The Clone Wars series has been able to maintain some of the mystery, which was lacking from Episodes I-III. They really just told you a bunch of stuff that happened, rather it being the more interesting vague historical backstory of Episodes IV-VI.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby TheBaxter on Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:16 am

Nachokoolaid wrote:A kickass Knights of the Old Republic movie would be welcomed by me.


me too, as long as lucas had absolutely nothing to do with it.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby RogueScribner on Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:15 pm

KOTOR would work better as a mini-series, but I'd take a movie. 8-)
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby magicmonkey on Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:00 am

I held a focus group with a Chinese male, age approximately 24, he enjoyed the prequels and thought that the original trilogy was wank (my words). I was a little taken aback. I mean, I love Phantom Menace, am meh about Clones (altho the soundtrack is great) and have both detested and enjoyed Sith, but this guy felt that the OT was of little merit.

Granted, I don't think this guy was familiar with the OT as a child, but, come on! Shot on film, with great practical effects and costumes that are pretty much de-facto Western (cowboy) movie garb, but with the added bonus of droidz and fucking lazer swords - and spaceships, I mean, what is there not to like? It's odd, and I imagine that if we invited some pre-teens into the zone (and we polled them) then the consensus may be the same and we'd all be rounded up and lumped into some metaphorical store cupboards along with broken old Woody toys. (kinda like the zone)... hey.. wait..what?

Soon, there will be few of us left, we may be found hiding in deserts or swamps babbling about VHS and Grindhouse, until one day the 1970's, "story" and acting will come back into fashion and some brave young farmboy will decide to remake the prequels. I fear our only hope right now is Rob Zombie, he'd remake it. And with the R rating it needed, as all cautionary stories about history must surely warrant.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby King Psyz on Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:29 am

I am intrigued by your words and would like to subscribe to your newsletter
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby RogueScribner on Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:08 pm

Well yeah, the PT was founded on the videogame mentality, so of course younger people are going to like it. It has lots more 'splosions and lazer swords and funny talking creatures than the OT.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Hermanator X on Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:43 am

RogueScribner wrote:Well yeah, the PT was founded on the videogame mentality, so of course younger people are going to like it. It has lots more 'splosions and lazer swords and funny talking creatures than the OT.


Dont forget more lens flare....
...and so forth.
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Re: Plot or character?

Postby max314 on Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:03 pm

Nachokoolaid wrote:The Original Star Wars trilogy had great characters. It didn't matter what happened really, we just wanted to spend time with them, and it was great.

The Prequels were too concerned with plot and getting from Point A to Point B and so on.

And I think we all know (except for max314 and Kirks) how that turned out.


The OT was way more plot-driven than the PT.

Clones and Sith were very heavily character-based.
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Re: Plot or character?

Postby TonyWilson on Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:06 pm

And the characters were shit.
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