The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

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Re: Plot or character?

Postby Seppuku on Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:23 pm

Plus their sole purpose was to drive the plot along. When Lucas tried to give them individual colour, we ended up with Jar Jar Binks, who was definitely supposed to be one colour in particular.
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Re: Plot or character?

Postby Al Shut on Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:39 pm

What exactly was that?

Not really clear for me watching the non english version
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Re: Plot or character?

Postby Seppuku on Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:44 pm

Let's just say Lucas originally spelt his name Jah Jah Binks. I'd find a source for that...but...uh I'm busy! Stop hassling me!
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Re: Plot or character?

Postby Al Shut on Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:53 pm

I'm sorry for the troble I cause

still no clue what Jar Jar is supposed to be :?
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Re: Plot or character?

Postby Peven on Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:57 pm

max314 wrote:
Nachokoolaid wrote:The Original Star Wars trilogy had great characters. It didn't matter what happened really, we just wanted to spend time with them, and it was great.

The Prequels were too concerned with plot and getting from Point A to Point B and so on.

And I think we all know (except for max314 and Kirks) how that turned out.


The OT was way more plot-driven than the PT.

Clones and Sith were very heavily character-based.



you say that without pointing to any specific reason, because there isn't one. no way is the PT more character driven, the characters only exist to drive the plot, which is a danger of a prequel, trying to create organic characters instead of molding them to fit into plot points that will match with the existing property.
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Re: Plot or character?

Postby Peven on Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:58 pm

Al Shut wrote:I'm sorry for the troble I cause

still no clue what Jar Jar is supposed to be :?


Jar Jar is Lucas's version of Wierd Harold from studly Albert.
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Re: Plot or character?

Postby Al Shut on Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:10 pm

I think I'll just stop asking.
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Re: Plot or character?

Postby Nachokoolaid on Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:22 pm

Peven wrote:
max314 wrote:
Nachokoolaid wrote:The Original Star Wars trilogy had great characters. It didn't matter what happened really, we just wanted to spend time with them, and it was great.

The Prequels were too concerned with plot and getting from Point A to Point B and so on.

And I think we all know (except for max314 and Kirks) how that turned out.


The OT was way more plot-driven than the PT.

Clones and Sith were very heavily character-based.



you say that without pointing to any specific reason, because there isn't one. no way is the PT more character driven, the characters only exist to drive the plot, which is a danger of a prequel, trying to create organic characters instead of molding them to fit into plot points that will match with the existing property.


Exactly my thoughts.


Al Shut wrote:I think I'll just stop asking.


Jar Jar is an example of racist black/slave stereotypes from the late 19th and early 20th centuries. (Think "blackface").
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Re: Plot or character?

Postby max314 on Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:47 pm

Peven wrote:
max314 wrote:
Nachokoolaid wrote:The Original Star Wars trilogy had great characters. It didn't matter what happened really, we just wanted to spend time with them, and it was great.

The Prequels were too concerned with plot and getting from Point A to Point B and so on.

And I think we all know (except for max314 and Kirks) how that turned out.


The OT was way more plot-driven than the PT.

Clones and Sith were very heavily character-based.



you say that without pointing to any specific reason, because there isn't one.


As opposed to your comprehensively laid out argument, right? :roll:

This is the book forum. I didn't want to take the thread off topic by discussing movies.

But hey, if that's really what you want... 8-)

no way is the PT more character driven, the characters only exist to drive the plot, which is a danger of a prequel, trying to create organic characters instead of molding them to fit into plot points that will match with the existing property.


The Phantom Menace was probably the most plot driven of the prequels. But even then, Qui-Gon picking up Anakin and choosing to train him is all due to the rebelliousness of his character. Amidala's attempts to get to the senate and tell them about the invasion is due to her character not wanting to go to war and to find a diplomatic solution. And Anakin leaving is a result of his dream to explore the stars...but when faced with the reality of leaving his mother, there ensues a moment of genuine tenderness as he tears himself away from everything he knows to embark on an adventure bigger than he's ever imagined.

Attack of the Clones is extremely character driven. At least half of it is, anyway. Obi-Wan's journey is very much plot driven, but it works extremely well because of the sense of mystery that keeps the viewer intrigued. It plays well on repeat viewings too, because the audience knows exactly what's going on and get to enjoy Obi-Wan's moments of revelation as he comes across one discovery after the other. Anakin's journey is almost 100% character-oriented. His inner conflict over being with Padmé and being the best Jedi he can be is palpable and empathetic. His choice to subvert his mandate and find his mother is a character driven plot point. Him massacring the Tuskens yet another. And his ultimate decision to submit to his feelings for Padmé cap off a film that is undeniably driven by character.

Revenge of the Sith, like Clones before it, is also a 50-50 film with regards to plot and character. But in a completely different way. Whereas Clones intercut between a plot-driven narrative and a character-driven one, Sith is divided down the middle. In other words, the first half is very much plot-based (i.e. the hunt for General Grievous), though interspersed with character moments (i.e. the beheading of an unarmed Dooku, Anakin's conversation with Palpatine at the opera, his scenes with Padmé, and some more subtle moments of contemplation, etc). The second half (i.e. everything after the death of Grievous) is almost completely character driven. Everything happens because Anakin makes it happen.

Personally, I prefer the approach of Clones. I think it's far more balanced, far better crafted. But hopefully this shows that the idea that the prequels rely on plot above character is, quite frankly, rubbish.
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Re: Plot or character?

Postby RogueScribner on Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:11 pm

ANH was mainly plot driven, but had much in the way of character development. TESB was mainly character driven, with only a couple of pushes of plot here and there to keep things moving. ROTJ was fairly balanced between plot and character.

See? Anyone can say anything and it means just as much. The OT was fairly organic in its story, however, while the PT adhered to some boundaries because we all knew certain things HAD to happen. The most organic part of the PT was Qui-Gon and they killed him off in the first movie.
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Re: Plot or character?

Postby Nachokoolaid on Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:21 pm

RogueScribner wrote:ANH was mainly plot driven, but had much in the way of character development. TESB was mainly character driven, with only a couple of pushes of plot here and there to keep things moving. ROTJ was fairly balanced between plot and character.

See? Anyone can say anything and it means just as much. The OT was fairly organic in its story, however, while the PT adhered to some boundaries because we all knew certain things HAD to happen. The most organic part of the PT was Qui-Gon and they killed him off in the first movie.


Qui-Gon AND Darth Maul. Those were the best two things about the Prequels.
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Re: Plot or character?

Postby RogueScribner on Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:22 pm

Darth Maul was a total plot device. One that was fun to watch, but there was no character there.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Nachokoolaid on Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:24 pm

I honestly think younger people that have never seen either prefer the PT because their eyes are trained to recognize "acceptable" special effects (i.e. cutting edge). The OT looks a bit older, and to them older = teh suk. I think that's part of it.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:58 am

Nachokoolaid wrote:I honestly think younger people that have never seen either prefer the PT because their eyes are trained to recognize "acceptable" special effects (i.e. cutting edge). The OT looks a bit older, and to them older = teh suk. I think that's part of it.


Well part of it is the whole Citizen Kane effect, in't it? A movie like Charlie's Angels is technically far more advanced than Kane is. But not for the time. Which is the point. Kids today are not of PT's time.

'Nuff said. Locks thread. Come on people, ain't you got homes to go to? Closing time here.
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Re: Plot or character?

Postby Peven on Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:17 am

max314 wrote:
Peven wrote:
max314 wrote:
Nachokoolaid wrote:The Original Star Wars trilogy had great characters. It didn't matter what happened really, we just wanted to spend time with them, and it was great.

The Prequels were too concerned with plot and getting from Point A to Point B and so on.

And I think we all know (except for max314 and Kirks) how that turned out.


The OT was way more plot-driven than the PT.

Clones and Sith were very heavily character-based.



you say that without pointing to any specific reason, because there isn't one.


As opposed to your comprehensively laid out argument, right? :roll:

This is the book forum. I didn't want to take the thread off topic by discussing movies.

But hey, if that's really what you want... 8-)

no way is the PT more character driven, the characters only exist to drive the plot, which is a danger of a prequel, trying to create organic characters instead of molding them to fit into plot points that will match with the existing property.


The Phantom Menace was probably the most plot driven of the prequels. But even then, Qui-Gon picking up Anakin and choosing to train him is all due to the rebelliousness of his character. Amidala's attempts to get to the senate and tell them about the invasion is due to her character not wanting to go to war and to find a diplomatic solution. And Anakin leaving is a result of his dream to explore the stars...but when faced with the reality of leaving his mother, there ensues a moment of genuine tenderness as he tears himself away from everything he knows to embark on an adventure bigger than he's ever imagined.

Attack of the Clones is extremely character driven. At least half of it is, anyway. Obi-Wan's journey is very much plot driven, but it works extremely well because of the sense of mystery that keeps the viewer intrigued. It plays well on repeat viewings too, because the audience knows exactly what's going on and get to enjoy Obi-Wan's moments of revelation as he comes across one discovery after the other. Anakin's journey is almost 100% character-oriented. His inner conflict over being with Padmé and being the best Jedi he can be is palpable and empathetic. His choice to subvert his mandate and find his mother is a character driven plot point. Him massacring the Tuskens yet another. And his ultimate decision to submit to his feelings for Padmé cap off a film that is undeniably driven by character.

Revenge of the Sith, like Clones before it, is also a 50-50 film with regards to plot and character. But in a completely different way. Whereas Clones intercut between a plot-driven narrative and a character-driven one, Sith is divided down the middle. In other words, the first half is very much plot-based (i.e. the hunt for General Grievous), though interspersed with character moments (i.e. the beheading of an unarmed Dooku, Anakin's conversation with Palpatine at the opera, his scenes with Padmé, and some more subtle moments of contemplation, etc). The second half (i.e. everything after the death of Grievous) is almost completely character driven. Everything happens because Anakin makes it happen.

Personally, I prefer the approach of Clones. I think it's far more balanced, far better crafted. But hopefully this shows that the idea that the prequels rely on plot above character is, quite frankly, rubbish.



the reason why people went to see Star Wars in droves when it came out in '77 was not the plot, hell, i bet at least half of the people who saw walked aout not really understanding the whole thing, but they loved the characters. the bickering robots. the lovable yet dangerous wookie. the old wise Jedi. the wannabe hero. the loveable rogue space smuggler. the dark and scary villain behind a mask with THAT voice. all these things had to do with character and they were all part of why Star Wars become a cultural phenom in '77 when it came out. meanwhile most of the people who had seeen it couldn't tell you if the Republic was the side of Darth Vader or Luke. the PT were all about trying to match up story lines and plot points, not characters or personalities
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby TheBaxter on Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:53 am

Nachokoolaid wrote:I honestly think younger people that have never seen either prefer the PT because their eyes are trained to recognize "acceptable" special effects (i.e. cutting edge). The OT looks a bit older, and to them older = teh suk. I think that's part of it.


i think this is definitely true, it's like people who can't watch B&W films, they can only appreciate a film if it's in color.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Peven on Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:06 am

TheBaxter wrote:
Nachokoolaid wrote:I honestly think younger people that have never seen either prefer the PT because their eyes are trained to recognize "acceptable" special effects (i.e. cutting edge). The OT looks a bit older, and to them older = teh suk. I think that's part of it.


i think this is definitely true, it's like people who can't watch B&W films, they can only appreciate a film if it's in color.


i agree that seems to be their initial reaction to B&W, but if you get them to sit and watch something good in B&W, really good, then they will like it. there is a romanticism about B&W though as if it was all good back then, only imo there was the same % of crap put out as today. also, when you think about what kind of movies benefit the most from B&W many aren't really kids' movies, except for the monster movies maybe. kids respond more to color naturally, too, whether you are talking about kids today or 50 years ago.


and before we get all romantic about the OT, one of the main reasons they were so popular was because they had better fx than other contemporary movies, so kids having a preference over the superior fx today without being hindered by the nostalgia of seeing the OT when it came out is no different and shouldn't be cause for criticism, imo.
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Re: Plot or character?

Postby King Psyz on Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:40 am

RogueScribner wrote:Darth Maul was a total plot device. One that was fun to watch, but there was no character there.

There was no character there because Lucas rushed in for the kill not realising it would have no impact with only a handfull of scenes and the rush to bring Count Dooku into the fold...*zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZzzzz* oh sorry I dozed off...
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby RogueScribner on Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:54 am

There wasn't even a rush to bring Dooku into the fold. The original villain idea for AOTC was for a female Sith witch. Dooku wasn't devised until the very late stages of AOTC's development. Else, some mention of Dooku would have been placed in TPM, dontcha think? I mean, he shared some rebellious similarities to Qui-Gon and it certainly would have had more impact for a Jedi character we were introduced to in TPM to be shown as a villain in AOTC. But no, Lucas didn't really have a grand plan for the prequels, he just knew Anakin needed to fall to the dark side and Palpatine needed to become Emperor. Everything else was done on a whim it seems.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby King Psyz on Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:59 pm

Imagine the change in tone had Maul remained a threat through the entire prequel ALA Darth Vader in the OT to be replaced at the end of revenge with Anakin?
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Al Shut on Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:06 pm

didn't we have a actual thread for this?
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby RogueScribner on Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:08 pm

You'd really have to build up Maul to be worthy of the status of "trilogy villain" though. There really wasn't much to his character. He was a pit bull. Nothing more.

Dooku, OTOH, had the makings of a great villain, but he was introduced one movie too late, his relationship with Obi-Wan was forced, and he was underutilized in the final film. He was Qui-Gon's master! That really should have been set up in TPM and then built upon in the subsequent films. It's all just a mish-mash of ideas that Lucas thought were cool, but they weren't properly plotted out and paid off.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Nachokoolaid on Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:08 pm

RogueScribner wrote:You'd really have to build up Maul to be worthy of the status of "trilogy villain" though. There really wasn't much to his character. He was a pit bull. Nothing more.

Dooku, OTOH, had the makings of a great villain, but he was introduced one movie too late, his relationship with Obi-Wan was forced, and he was underutilized in the final film. He was Qui-Gon's master! That really should have been set up in TPM and then built upon in the subsequent films. It's all just a mish-mash of ideas that Lucas thought were cool, but they weren't properly plotted out and paid off.



But why couldn't Maul be the former Jedi? Give him Dooku's dialogue. Shit, even let Chris Lee do the voice over if you want to. Hell, even have a flashback to before Maul's eyes became all devily and he took the name Maul. I think that would have been awesome, and a threatening presence throughout the trilogy was one thing that was missing. He certainly could have helped that.

Ok, so now that that point's been decided, how do you end the Qui-Gon/Kenobi/Maul fight then?
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Peven on Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:19 pm

Lucas has been making it up as went along since he was given the go-ahead to make a sequel to Star Wars, which is why there are so many plot holes
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Fried Gold on Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:59 pm

Nachokoolaid wrote:Ok, so now that that point's been decided, how do you end the Qui-Gon/Kenobi/Maul fight then?

Have Kenobi slice Maul hands off, force pushing him down the pit...but he survives.

It would mirror Luke's fall in Cloud City.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby King Psyz on Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:15 pm

Fried Gold wrote:
Nachokoolaid wrote:Ok, so now that that point's been decided, how do you end the Qui-Gon/Kenobi/Maul fight then?

Have Kenobi slice Maul hands off, force pushing him down the pit...but he survives.

It would mirror Luke's fall in Cloud City.

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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby RogueScribner on Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:31 pm

What if Qui-Gon didn't die? What if the events of TPM pushed Qui-Gon to leave the Jedi Order? What if Qui-Gon was then Dooku in effect? What if Liam Neeson was in all the prequels and there was real dramatic conflict between him and Obi-Wan, instead of the orchestrated and quite hollow conflict we had between Dooku and Obi-Wan? What if Anakin's childhood hero offered him a different POV on the ways of the Force which helped Anakin start on the path to the dark side? What if Obi-Wan assumed Luke's role from the CT and thought Qui-Gon could be saved? But he was too late. What if only at the end Qui-Gon realized his mistake before Anakin was forced to kill him and usurp his position? And what if in trying to make sure Anakin adhered to the strict conventions of the Jedi Code in order to prevent another Qui-Gonesque fall from grace, he actually pushed Anakin to break free and make his grab for power?

All of that seems infinitely more interesting to me than the hodgepodge of villainy and betrayal that we got.

You have to make the conflicts personal and there have to be real stakes and sacrifices made along the way. I don't think there was enough of that.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby King Psyz on Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:10 pm

jesus, that's even fucking better!

now that would have been an awesome story arc.

it boils down to this:

from the OT we were promised or led to belive the following

1) Anakin was/is the best pilot ever.

2) General Kenobi was key to the Clone Wars and served under Leia's adopted father

3) The Clone Wars were pretty fucking intense and regarded the way WWII was shortly after.

4) Darth Vader had the empire in his steel hand.

5) The Galactic Senate somehow survived until halfway into New Hope

6) Yoda was Obi Wan's master

Had they just stuck to that and not focused on tween "Ani" hating sand because it gets everywhere and his wholly inapropriate relationship with Queen Amidala, or shoehorning in the droids, boba fett, et all unnaturally, a geriatric jedi who fences with a lightsaber, and jar jar fucking binks it would have rivaled the OT as intended.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Fried Gold on Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:31 pm

RogueScribner wrote:What if Qui-Gon didn't die? What if the events of TPM pushed Qui-Gon to leave the Jedi Order? What if Qui-Gon was then Dooku in effect? What if Liam Neeson was in all the prequels and there was real dramatic conflict between him and Obi-Wan, instead of the orchestrated and quite hollow conflict we had between Dooku and Obi-Wan? What if Anakin's childhood hero offered him a different POV on the ways of the Force which helped Anakin start on the path to the dark side? What if Obi-Wan assumed Luke's role from the CT and thought Qui-Gon could be saved? But he was too late. What if only at the end Qui-Gon realized his mistake before Anakin was forced to kill him and usurp his position? And what if in trying to make sure Anakin adhered to the strict conventions of the Jedi Code in order to prevent another Qui-Gonesque fall from grace, he actually pushed Anakin to break free and make his grab for power?

All of that seems infinitely more interesting to me than the hodgepodge of villainy and betrayal that we got.

You have to make the conflicts personal and there have to be real stakes and sacrifices made along the way. I don't think there was enough of that.

What if he hadn't bothered making up the new character of Qui-Gon and left it with just Obi-Wan.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby RogueScribner on Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:26 pm

I think Qui-Gon was needed in the time frame Lucas put TPM. However, if he started the PT a little later when Anakin was in his late teens/early twenties and Obi-Wan was in his early to mid-thirties (which is something I think most people assumed was going to happen), then Obi-Wan conceivably could have been mentoring Anakin from the start and Qui-Gon would not have been necessary in that regard. But since Obi-Wan and Anakin were both so young in TPM, Qui-Gon (or some other Jedi Master) needed to be there to mentor the crazy kids and start them on their paths of destiny.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Nachokoolaid on Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:54 pm

RogueScribner wrote:What if Qui-Gon didn't die? What if the events of TPM pushed Qui-Gon to leave the Jedi Order? What if Qui-Gon was then Dooku in effect? What if Liam Neeson was in all the prequels and there was real dramatic conflict between him and Obi-Wan, instead of the orchestrated and quite hollow conflict we had between Dooku and Obi-Wan? What if Anakin's childhood hero offered him a different POV on the ways of the Force which helped Anakin start on the path to the dark side? What if Obi-Wan assumed Luke's role from the CT and thought Qui-Gon could be saved? But he was too late. What if only at the end Qui-Gon realized his mistake before Anakin was forced to kill him and usurp his position? And what if in trying to make sure Anakin adhered to the strict conventions of the Jedi Code in order to prevent another Qui-Gonesque fall from grace, he actually pushed Anakin to break free and make his grab for power?

All of that seems infinitely more interesting to me than the hodgepodge of villainy and betrayal that we got.

You have to make the conflicts personal and there have to be real stakes and sacrifices made along the way. I don't think there was enough of that.


Wow. There's so much fucking WIN in this post... I don't even know how to respond. Now I'm just sad that something this cool didn't actually happen.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Peven on Fri May 01, 2009 12:08 am

Nachokoolaid wrote:
RogueScribner wrote:What if Qui-Gon didn't die? What if the events of TPM pushed Qui-Gon to leave the Jedi Order? What if Qui-Gon was then Dooku in effect? What if Liam Neeson was in all the prequels and there was real dramatic conflict between him and Obi-Wan, instead of the orchestrated and quite hollow conflict we had between Dooku and Obi-Wan? What if Anakin's childhood hero offered him a different POV on the ways of the Force which helped Anakin start on the path to the dark side? What if Obi-Wan assumed Luke's role from the CT and thought Qui-Gon could be saved? But he was too late. What if only at the end Qui-Gon realized his mistake before Anakin was forced to kill him and usurp his position? And what if in trying to make sure Anakin adhered to the strict conventions of the Jedi Code in order to prevent another Qui-Gonesque fall from grace, he actually pushed Anakin to break free and make his grab for power?

All of that seems infinitely more interesting to me than the hodgepodge of villainy and betrayal that we got.

You have to make the conflicts personal and there have to be real stakes and sacrifices made along the way. I don't think there was enough of that.


Wow. There's so much fucking WIN in this post... I don't even know how to respond. Now I'm just sad that something this cool didn't actually happen.


i have to hand it to you, Rogue, you have more good ideas in your one post than Lucas had for all three prequels combined
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby RogueScribner on Fri May 01, 2009 12:36 am

Thanks guys. :oops: 8-)

I honestly just came up with the idea when I posted it. It does make a kind of sense, though, doesn't it? And if I can come up with something like that, why can't a professional? I wouldn't expect someone to have an entire trilogy plotted out in detail before filming frame 1 on the first installment, but a little forethought can go a long way to making it seem like a coherent whole when it's all done.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby travis-dane on Fri May 01, 2009 3:11 am

Peven wrote:
Nachokoolaid wrote:
RogueScribner wrote:What if Qui-Gon didn't die? What if the events of TPM pushed Qui-Gon to leave the Jedi Order? What if Qui-Gon was then Dooku in effect? What if Liam Neeson was in all the prequels and there was real dramatic conflict between him and Obi-Wan, instead of the orchestrated and quite hollow conflict we had between Dooku and Obi-Wan? What if Anakin's childhood hero offered him a different POV on the ways of the Force which helped Anakin start on the path to the dark side? What if Obi-Wan assumed Luke's role from the CT and thought Qui-Gon could be saved? But he was too late. What if only at the end Qui-Gon realized his mistake before Anakin was forced to kill him and usurp his position? And what if in trying to make sure Anakin adhered to the strict conventions of the Jedi Code in order to prevent another Qui-Gonesque fall from grace, he actually pushed Anakin to break free and make his grab for power?

All of that seems infinitely more interesting to me than the hodgepodge of villainy and betrayal that we got.

You have to make the conflicts personal and there have to be real stakes and sacrifices made along the way. I don't think there was enough of that.


Wow. There's so much fucking WIN in this post... I don't even know how to respond. Now I'm just sad that something this cool didn't actually happen.


i have to hand it to you, Rogue, you have more good ideas in your one post than Lucas had for all three prequels combined


Rogue, you're the man. Great concept.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby max314 on Fri May 01, 2009 5:48 pm

RogueScribner wrote:What if Qui-Gon didn't die? What if the events of TPM pushed Qui-Gon to leave the Jedi Order? What if Qui-Gon was then Dooku in effect? What if Liam Neeson was in all the prequels and there was real dramatic conflict between him and Obi-Wan, instead of the orchestrated and quite hollow conflict we had between Dooku and Obi-Wan? What if Anakin's childhood hero offered him a different POV on the ways of the Force which helped Anakin start on the path to the dark side? What if Obi-Wan assumed Luke's role from the CT and thought Qui-Gon could be saved? But he was too late. What if only at the end Qui-Gon realized his mistake before Anakin was forced to kill him and usurp his position? And what if in trying to make sure Anakin adhered to the strict conventions of the Jedi Code in order to prevent another Qui-Gonesque fall from grace, he actually pushed Anakin to break free and make his grab for power?

All of that seems infinitely more interesting to me than the hodgepodge of villainy and betrayal that we got.

You have to make the conflicts personal and there have to be real stakes and sacrifices made along the way. I don't think there was enough of that.


Yeah, that's excellent.

It's amazing how simply repositioning one character/element in the saga can open up such great possibilities and enhance the emotional poignancy of the story.

As it stands, Qui-Gon is just sort of hanging around in the ether not doing very much.

I think you've shown this was the biggest missed opportunity in the prequel trilogy.

Well done :wink:

Thanks guys. :oops: 8-)

I honestly just came up with the idea when I posted it. It does make a kind of sense, though, doesn't it? And if I can come up with something like that, why can't a professional? I wouldn't expect someone to have an entire trilogy plotted out in detail before filming frame 1 on the first installment, but a little forethought can go a long way to making it seem like a coherent whole when it's all done.


You're right. Hindsight is 20-20. That's why rewrites are considered such an important part of the process.

But yes, it would have been so much better if Lucas had seized upon the opportunity presented by Qui-Gon instead of turning him into a loose thread to be wrapped up in an out-of-place dialogue scene between Yoda and Obi-Wan at the end of Revenge of the Sith.

Again, good call on the Qui-Gon thing 8-)
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Nachokoolaid on Fri May 01, 2009 11:06 pm

Holy crap. I think we're all in agreement here. There's harmony in the Star Wars thread.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby RogueScribner on Sat May 02, 2009 1:34 am

All right. Close the thread. We're done.

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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby King Psyz on Sat May 02, 2009 2:13 am

Rouge is the chosen one destined to bring balance to the force... Which reminds me, funny how the prophecy was true and everyone failed to see just how literal it was.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Peven on Sat May 02, 2009 9:08 am

King Psyz wrote:Rouge is the chosen one destined to bring balance to the force... Which reminds me, funny how the prophecy was true and everyone failed to see just how literal it was.



yeah, i mean, there are ALL these good jedi, and just two Sith, a little unbalanced don't you think? and the prophecy says the chosen one will bring balance.......and none of these genius jedi realized which side of the scale was going to get some help to achieve that balance??? hhmmmmmmm :lol:
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (now with OT rules PT sucks)

Postby Nachokoolaid on Sat May 02, 2009 6:31 pm

So do you think they didn't realize it? Or is that why some of the "wiser" ones like Yoda and Windu were opposed to training Anakin. I always kind of thought that they knew what Anakin represented, and that was the downfall of their current Jedi way of life.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (OT roolz, PT droolz)

Postby Spandau Belly on Fri May 15, 2009 2:40 pm

I definately prefer Rogue's idea for a prequel trilogy better than what we got. The PT just didn't have enough to sustain three films. It barely had enough for one.

Attack of the Clones was my favorite of the PT and I remember at least liking it more as a Star Wars movie than Return of the Jedi because it kept moving and had loads of cliffhangers at the end. In fact, I prefer it as the end to the PT. I prefer them just hinting at Anakin becoming more machine and a fascist instead of actually seeing him put on the Vader mask.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (OT roolz, PT droolz)

Postby max314 on Sat May 16, 2009 4:39 pm

Spandau Belly wrote:I definately prefer Rogue's idea for a prequel trilogy better than what we got. The PT just didn't have enough to sustain three films. It barely had enough for one.

Attack of the Clones was my favorite of the PT and I remember at least liking it more as a Star Wars movie than Return of the Jedi because it kept moving and had loads of cliffhangers at the end. In fact, I prefer it as the end to the PT. I prefer them just hinting at Anakin becoming more machine and a fascist instead of actually seeing him put on the Vader mask.


P: You really don't like politicians, do you?
A: Eh, I like one or two. Though I'm not sure about one of them.

[A small laugh.]

A: I don't think the system works.
P: Well, how would you have it work.
A: We need a system where the politicians sit down and discuss the issues. Decide what's in the best interest of all the people. And then do it.
P: That's exactly what we do. The problem is everyone doesn't always agree.
A: Then they should be made to.
P: By whom? Who's going to make them? You?
A: Of course not me.
P: But somebody.
A: Somebody wise.

[She shakes her head.]

P: I don't know, that sounds an awful lot like a dictatorship to me.
A: Well. If it works.

[They share a moment, Padmé trying to read his eyes.]

P: You're making fun of me...
A: No, no, I'd be much to frightened to tease a senator...

[They share a laugh. But she looks at him again, still unsure as to what's going on behind those eyes.]


I totally love that scene. I re-wrote that from memory, which is testament to how well-written it is (or how many times I've seen the movie :D), so forgive me if I got anything wrong.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (OT roolz, PT droolz)

Postby Spandau Belly on Sun May 17, 2009 10:56 am

Thanks max314, that's exactly what I was talking about. It was more interesting for me to see Anakin portrayed at a point when he's a wrestleless young man still forming his outlook on the world than to see him either completely turning into a monster or depicted as a cute little boy who you could never imagine turning into Darth Vader.

Attack of the Clones also has a story and an arc and pacing whereas Phantom Menace is all exposition and Revenge of the Sith is just one bloated "dark" climax after the next.

So yeah, I think Attack of The Clones is an okay movie. I might even buy it someday because I get the odd feeling to watch it every now and then.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (OT roolz, PT droolz)

Postby max314 on Sun May 17, 2009 1:06 pm

Spandau Belly wrote:Thanks max314, that's exactly what I was talking about. It was more interesting for me to see Anakin portrayed at a point when he's a wrestleless young man still forming his outlook on the world than to see him either completely turning into a monster or depicted as a cute little boy who you could never imagine turning into Darth Vader.

Attack of the Clones also has a story and an arc and pacing whereas Phantom Menace is all exposition and Revenge of the Sith is just one bloated "dark" climax after the next.

So yeah, I think Attack of The Clones is an okay movie. I might even buy it someday because I get the odd feeling to watch it every now and then.


I empathise :D

It's one of those movies that actually gets better on repeat viewings. When I first saw it at the cinema, it kind of washed over me. The visual scale of the thing was almost overwhelming. But when I caught repeat screenings on Sky Movies, I found I was compelled to sit down again and again. Each time I watched it, it got better and more compelling.

As you say, it's not "set up" like Menace and it's not all "pay off" like Sith. It's the Empire Strikes Back of the prequel trilogy, and I personally think it's the most compelling piece in the entire saga. A real character study.

For me, the current Clone Wars TV show (the CG one) is absolutely fantastic, and appears to be a continuation of the tone and sense of exploration that Lucas captured in Attack of the Clones.

I know it's not popular to like the prequel trilogy, and I know they get bashed - and understandably so - but I also think there's a lot there to be admired. I think there's a lot that worked. And I think that Episode II is the unsung gem of the series that reveals another one of its myriad of precious facets every time you see it.

That's me.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (OT roolz, PT droolz)

Postby max314 on Thu May 21, 2009 12:37 pm

This is from a ten year retrospective topic on another forum. Thought it might be interesting posting it here.

I wouldn't really call it a full review. It's more a collection of reflective thoughts over how its aged.

Anyway, here it is.

________________


Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace (Lucas, 1999):


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"At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have revenge."


There is a lot to like in Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace.

And no, Jar Jar Binks is not that bad. In fact, the last time I saw the film he actually made me laugh.

What the film got wrong was its attempts to balance too many stories: Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's adventure; Padmé's adventure; Anakin's adventure. In theory, this can be seen to work as a strength. In reality, it dilutes the theme of the film and reduces the focus of the narrative. Nothing really pays off in a satisfactory way because the audience isn't afforded a singular thread to hold on to. When it comes to classical fairytale storytelling, you can't do it American Graffiti style. When Anakin Skywalker - the saga's protagonist - does not appear until the second act of the film, you know something isn't right.

On the other hand, it does make for a very interestingly structured plot. There is an optimism and energy about The Phantom Menace that's hard to ignore, and the scattergun structure of the screenplay seems to reflect those qualities as much as the film's visual aesthetic. The podrace sequence is enthralling and very well designed. The climactic lightsaber duel is both visually stirring and emotionally compelling. And there is a genuine sense of pathos and the great weight of destiny accompanying Anaking tearing himself away from his mother's warmth and hurtling into the icy cold of space.

So yes, some bad, some good. It's a mixed bag. But it's certainly great to watch.

It's a world you can't help but be drawn into. You want to be on Tatooine with the heroes. You want to run around the rolling hills of Naboo. And you want to be Anakin in that pod as he shoots thrillingly through lethal crevices at the speed of sound.

Not as well balanced as Attack of the Clones, nor as ruthlessly emotional as Revenge of the Sith, The Phantom Menace may be the weakest link in the prequel chain, but there are far worse ways to spend your Sunday afternoon than with a box of snacks and a DVD of The Phantom Menace.


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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (OT roolz, PT droolz)

Postby Peven on Thu May 21, 2009 3:02 pm

yousa needa toua getsa outy somsa morsi anda watcha soma mora moveees thana justa theesa starsi wasrsi flicksies.........
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (OT roolz, PT droolz)

Postby Nachokoolaid on Thu May 21, 2009 3:16 pm

max, I gotta hand it to you. You're persistant. It's brave of you to post that, but I don't know if it helps or hurts your arguments, because most folks will form a pretty strong opinion as soon as they see:

Jar Jar's Gimp wrote:And no, Jar Jar Binks is not that bad.


Yes. Yes, he was.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (OT roolz, PT droolz)

Postby TheBaxter on Thu May 21, 2009 5:40 pm

Nachokoolaid wrote:max, I gotta hand it to you. You're persistant. It's brave of you to post that, but I don't know if it helps or hurts your arguments, because most folks will form a pretty strong opinion as soon as they see:

Jar Jar's Gimp wrote:And no, Jar Jar Binks is not that bad.


Yes. Yes, he was.


i made it past that part... barely.

but then i got to this part

Jar Jar's Gimp wrote:In fact, the last time I saw the film he actually made me laugh.


that's where i realized the writer was either insane, stupid, or a 6-year-old kid.
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (OT roolz, PT droolz)

Postby travis-dane on Thu May 21, 2009 6:11 pm

Moriarty has a spin on this too....

Looking Back At 1999: Jar-Jar Binks is ten years old... (by Drew)

In 1999, as people counted down the days to May 19th, it was obvious that a genuine cultural moment was underway. There was an excitement in the air, and more than that, an optimism. People belived in the best possible version of what a "Star Wars" movie could be, and there wasn't even a hint of the idea of the potential for failure. If you go back and read the message boards and the talkbacks and the international press, what you'll see is... well, for lack of a better word... faith.

I didn't stand in line for the film for weeks or even months like some people did, but I was living in Hollywood at the time, about five blocks from the Chinese Theater, where the biggest line was located, and I had a number of friends who were part of that. I also found myself getting back in contact with old friends all over the country who got in touch because of my work on Ain't It Cool, and I made new friends as well, people I'm still in touch with now, who were just "Star Wars" fans who read what I wrote and had to reach out to say hello. And what was most amazing about that period of time was the way it seemed like this one movie was bringing people together, the way people were all sharing this excitement, this anticipation. Fandom was about unity. Like I said... fandom was about faith.

And just as I will never forget the hope leading up to May 19th, we are never going to fully shake the pop culture heartbreak that set in afterwards.

Jar-Jar Binks, perhaps the most reviled character in the entire "Star Wars" mythos, has become a symbol of everything that went wrong with the prequels. You want to make a "Star Wars" fan mental, just tell them, "Meesa wuv Jah- Jah!" Even now, I'll bet you see a twitch. In another way, though, Jar-Jar isn't just a symbol of how Lucas failed... he's a symbol of exactly where fandom lost its way.

...................................................

Jar-Jar Binks, I'm sorry to say, is not the Devil. He led the way to Gollum, who paved the way for Davy Jones, who is but mere warm-up for "Avatar," and whatever lies beyond that. That's not a bad legacy at all.

Anakin Skywalker, though... he's the Devil. Because he's the one whose story and whose absolute lack of dramatic purpose cripples the "Star Wars" prequels. Anytime you back up to tell the same story again... and again... and again... and again... well, that's Hell. That's Anakin. And that is what we have to be done with.

Let's take this moment this morning to toast the Decade of Anakin Skywalker. 1999 to 2009.


Link to the whole thing....
http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/2008-12-6-motion-captured/posts/2009-5-19-jar-jar-binks-is-ten-years-old-today

and Jar Jar still sucks....
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Re: The STAR WARS Discussion Thread (OT roolz, PT droolz)

Postby Lord Voldemoo on Thu May 21, 2009 7:22 pm

As for Drew's points....well taken I think. In a way Jar Jar did pave the way for Gollum. If nothing else as a case study in what not to do.

And Drew's also right in that the real problems with the films went waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay deeper than Jar Jar.
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