The Matrix Trilogy: Revisited

New movies! Old movies! B-movies! Discuss discuss discuss!!!

How do you feel about The Matrix?

Poll ended at Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:46 pm

Best/Most Important SciFi of the 90s
15
23%
Important SciFi of the 90s
40
63%
Just another movie
5
8%
Below average film with above average effects
2
3%
One of the worst movies of the 90s
2
3%
 
Total votes : 64

Postby The Garbage Man on Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:55 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:Rolling Stone has an article up over HERE about Larry Wachowski and his BDSM lifestyle. Really interesting read, discusses how his fetishes bled over into the Matrix movies.


I was just about to post that article. Curse you, Whedon!

Larry's story is definitely... unconventional.
It sounds like he's made his money and decided to get out of the game. If he's truly happy with the new life he's created for himself, then I say good for him.
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Postby ONeillSG1 on Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:54 am

The Garbage Man wrote:If he's truly happy with the new life he's created for himself, then I say good for him.


The sad thing is that he LITERALLY did create himself over.

Well, in a manner of speaking I guess.

Also, was not Independance Day not an important Sci-Fi film of the 90's? It tool the epic sci-fi popcorn flick to new heights.
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Postby MasterWhedon on Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:41 pm

If you haven't seen it yet, Mori has posted a really great look back at The Matrix Reloaded by Cbabbitt HERE.

He does a really nice job of discussion both the high and low points of the sequel, as well the thematic and philisophical underpinnings of the series. It's a little long, but worth it.

Can't wait for his Revolutions article on Monday.
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Postby Cbabbitt on Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:38 pm

Thank you, MasterWhedon.

Hope you enjoy the last part. It's a bit shorter. :)
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Postby MasterWhedon on Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:57 pm

I was just reading the TB response to your article, Cbabbitt, and, like clockwork, it's SO incredibly negative. Don't take any of it to heart. Your arguments were well thought out and reasoned, and trolls who are being contrary to be contrary shouldn't even be acknolwedged.
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Postby Seppuku on Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:09 pm

The talkback's pretty big considering how long it's been up...I'd take that many comments as a good sign that your Matrix Retrospective had something to say (five chapters worth of things to say). If I wrote something for AICN like that (other than tb entries), I'd damn well hope it gets more than 2 comments a la AnimèAICN.
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Postby The Ginger Man on Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:24 pm

Cbabbit. Take this as constructive criticism, not hate. Good job writing all that, but it needed to be cut in half. Main way to do that: leave out all the praise. Each of your paragraphs/segments is bogged down by your need to constantly remind us that you think Reloaded is "brilliant, complex, gargantuan, sensational, spectacular, genius, etc..." In a review like this, you should never have to say the film is awesome. You're analysis should say it for you.

You don't want a review of this kind to ramble on. It will lead your readers to think "if the movie was really this good, he wouldn't need a thesis paper to explain it."
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Postby Crayotic Rockwell on Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:31 pm

The thing is, the article says it was expectations that killed The MAtrix sequels, but the flaws mentioned in the piece point to the real reason why they just weren't well received.

I could care less where they took the story--I wasn't that much of a mark for the first film anyway, but it was entertaining.

The problem I had was that it was just alot of very poor storytelling choices in the sequels, the least of which being Neo's invincibility and the main villian looking more useless with each encounter, and The Wachowski's making no effort to have him actually seem a threat or Neo to have any weaknesses

Ironically, it's the foundations and execution of it's action elements which fail the most.. Sure, The Matrix is about more than action pieces you might say, but they sure do seem to put alot of focus on them at the same time.. If it was just sci-fi and concepts that the movie was getting merited on, then The Matrix series is most likely a rousing success, but that's not the movies we're being presented with

Not to mention the fact that they never really made any effort to make the protagonist's very likeable or give them much character.. Unless you count "acting" cool as character work.. but then again, that's not even as good as "being" cool, which no one in that trilogy really had down.

Other quick points:

- Morpheus's speech was one of the worst moments of monologue history

- Why blow your entire load with the Trinity death sequence in it's entirety at the beginning of the film? By the middle mark when it happens there's no money shots left and we're just going over retreads. Should have given us a differently edited sequence for the beginning.

- Why do people seem to rave about how great Tank was in the first movie when he had only several filler lines at best and his only contribution was dieing?
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Postby MasterWhedon on Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:39 pm

Crayotic Rockwell wrote:- Why do people seem to rave about how great Tank was in the first movie when he had only several filler lines at best and his only contribution was dieing?

I think you're talking about Dozer. Tank was the Operator who lived, but the actor who played him wasn't invited back for the sequels because he trash-talked the Wachowskis in interviews.

I agree with Babbit on that point, that the Link story would've had more weight if it was a character we were with from the beginning.
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Postby MasterWhedon on Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:48 pm

The Ginger Man wrote:Cbabbit. Take this as constructive criticism, not hate. Good job writing all that, but it needed to be cut in half. Main way to do that: leave out all the praise. Each of your paragraphs/segments is bogged down by your need to constantly remind us that you think Reloaded is "brilliant, complex, gargantuan, sensational, spectacular, genius, etc..." In a review like this, you should never have to say the film is awesome. You're analysis should say it for you.

You don't want a review of this kind to ramble on. It will lead your readers to think "if the movie was really this good, he wouldn't need a thesis paper to explain it."

See, I thought the length was fine, just that there should've been more paragraph breaks to help the eyes flow better.

And I liked that he took the time to point out the moments that really work. That was kinda the whole point of the article, to look back and say, hey, this thing does work despite its flaws. If all he did was harp on the negative, it'd be just another pile on review like all the others.

Anyway, I found it to be a rather insightful retrospective that sums up rather well the way I feel about the film.
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Postby Crayotic Rockwell on Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:51 pm

I think you're talking about Dozer. Tank was the Operator who lived, but the actor who played him wasn't invited back for the sequels because he trash-talked the Wachowskis in interviews.

I agree with Babbit on that point, that the Link story would've had more weight if it was a character we were with from the beginning.


Oh my bad,.. yet that still demonstrates just how great anyone else on that ship stuck out to me :)

the other thing that bugges me with Reloaded (and it might have been a factor in Revolutions I can't recall) was the new characters they introduced.. cbabbit touched on it with The Kid, but there was also some other random broad.. and possibly Niobe as well.. it was like The Wachowski's didn't bother giving us any real introduction or try to put them over with us, and assume that we'd already be invested in these characters via the animatrix or matrix game, or whatever other medium they brought them in from

pretty lazy assumption imo

Like sure, it's a nice tip of the hat for a cameo, but don't give them a big dramatic score piece
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Postby MasterWhedon on Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:59 pm

Yeah, that's the thing I didn't like about Niobe. She really had nothing that important to do in the movie, but would pop up at key moments just to allow the Enter the Matix videogame to have connecting points.
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Postby The Ginger Man on Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:11 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:See, I thought the length was fine, just that there should've been more paragraph breaks to help the eyes flow better.

And I liked that he took the time to point out the moments that really work. That was kinda the whole point of the article, to look back and say, hey, this thing does work despite its flaws. If all he did was harp on the negative, it'd be just another pile on review like all the others.

Anyway, I found it to be a rather insightful retrospective that sums up rather well the way I feel about the film.


Length isn't an issue, if that length is used properly. Babbit stated his thesis very early on: "The Matrix Reloaded is a deeply complex amalgamation of sensibilities and ideas, a gargantuan undertaking of ambition that represents everything that’s successful and unsuccessful about the trilogy." With that established, he didn't need to take up so much space by constantly repeating this thesis throughout each section. By suggesting it should have been shorter, I meant he needed to stop saying the film was awesome and just let his analysis support his thesis.

I also felt his constant gushing weakened his overall point. I'll pick a sentence from each segment, see if you can tell what each one relates to.

1) ______ is one of the most intriguing, well paced, and symbolic moments in the story.

2) ______ is arguably the most spectacular set-piece in Reloaded

3) ______ is one of the most pleasing, entertaining, and philosophically intriguing in the entire film

4) ______ is the most gargantuan, ambitious, daring, and confident set-piece in Reloaded.

5) ______ is one of the best written and performed moments in film this decade so far.

It makes you wonder. When the reviewer says the film was "certainly troubled," how can every one of it's main sequences be the most awesomest thing ever? It ultimately hurts his analysis by making it feel more like blind fan adoration.
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Postby MasterWhedon on Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:13 pm

The Ginger Man wrote:It makes you wonder. When the reviewer says the film was "certainly troubled," how can everyone of it's main sequences be the most awesomest thing ever? It ultimately hurts his analysis by making it feel more like blind fan adoration.

You, sir, are a three-nippled gentleman. But you make a good point.
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Postby The Ginger Man on Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:19 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:
The Ginger Man wrote:It makes you wonder. When the reviewer says the film was "certainly troubled," how can everyone of it's main sequences be the most awesomest thing ever? It ultimately hurts his analysis by making it feel more like blind fan adoration.

You, sir, are a three-nippled gentleman. But you make a good point.


And you, good sir, are a thigh-pouch-wearing scholar. Keep in mind, I'm not shitting on Babbit. I'm trying to give him some simple writing advice for future reviews. The guy did a commendable job writing something so in depth about a movie I consider to be almost unwatchable. That certainly counts for something.
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Postby Cbabbitt on Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:46 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:I was just reading the TB response to your article, Cbabbitt, and, like clockwork, it's SO incredibly negative. Don't take any of it to heart. Your arguments were well thought out and reasoned, and trolls who are being contrary to be contrary shouldn't even be acknolwedged.


Actually, I thought the talkback would be much worse.
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Postby Cbabbitt on Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:50 pm

And Ginger Man,

There's really no point in writing it if I'm not going to praise the films. I am a fan. That's exactly why I did this. I discuss what I dislike about the films, and I discuss what I feel is "sensational, awesome, ambitious, extraordinary". That's the whole point. Why would I spend so much time on movies I love without pointing out what excites me?
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Postby The Ginger Man on Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:18 pm

Cbabbitt wrote:And Ginger Man,

There's really no point in writing it if I'm not going to praise the films. I am a fan. That's exactly why I did this. I discuss what I dislike about the films, and I discuss what I feel is "sensational, awesome, ambitious, extraordinary". That's the whole point. Why would I spend so much time on movies I love without pointing out what excites me?


Short answer: Because it's bad writing.

Longer answer: Show, don't tell. Just like in dramatic writing. You don't have your character tell the audience that he's angry. You show the audience that your character is angry. Same with your review. Your intro already establishes that you are a fan and that you believe the movie is great. After that point, you should stop telling the reader that it's great. You should show the reader why it's great. WHICH YOU DO. I didn't tell you to not praise the film. I told you to cut the extrenious stuff. It would have taken your review to the next level.
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Postby Cbabbitt on Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:29 pm

Ginger Man,

I suggest you skip my Revolutions piece, then. I'm sorry you have such a problem with my writing. I'm not going to please everyone.
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Postby TonyWilson on Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:47 pm

CBabbitt, I need to tell you my problem with the sequels: Neo isn't God. It's that simple.
That's why everyone walked out of the first film as though they had just dropped acid and opened their third eye. Neo had become more than the One, he had become the Messiah. What the writers did at the end of Reloaded, while certainly good writing and great drama, was completely destroy our faith. Morpehus became nothing more than another fool duped into the Machine's tricks. Neo was reduced to an anomaly for fuckssake!!!
The Wachowski's could have created a set of films more transcedental, more brave and revolutionary if they'd had the balls to stick with their original idea, but they scaled back. They took the easy way out. I think (and I coould be extremely off base here) that they realised that if they wanted to make another 2 movies they couldn't have Neo as an all powerful deity striding through the Matrix showing the people their world was an illusion because the tension would have been missing, in point of fact I think it would have created even more tension, drama and spectacle. But I can see why they decided to scale Neo back, scale back his metaphysical weight so he could fit within the designs of the films rather than be something far greater than the Machines could even comprehend; pure spirit coming to free us from opression. That idea is what got our adrenaline glands pumping at the end of the first film and why were so sorely disapointed with the sequels, the great awesome promise from the first movie was ruined.
I still appreciate the films and I understand to a greater or lesser extent "what they are about" but the decision to not make Neo a real God is fatal fundamental flaw which means the 2 sequels can only ever be good and never awe inspiring and spectacular like the first.
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Postby AtomicHyperbole on Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:49 pm

Babbit, just to note... Ginger Man's criticism is well meaning. You shouldn't take it negatively, as its positive criticism. I can't see anything in it that doesn't want to help you in building up your skills. As a board artist, I live and die by criticism... as a writer, you find you will too. Just take what you need, accept well-written criticism that actually makes an effort to understand your piece and stance, and walk away. Hopefully taking something with you.

The worst criticism is wanton negativity, as we so often see in the talkbacks. Ginger's giving you valid reasons for his views and backing them up clearly. You don't HAVE to take them on board, but it's pretty clear he wants to help more than hurt.

And that's a good thing! Don't be ashamed to take on board views. It's quite easy to sort the wheat from the chaff.
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Postby Seppuku on Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:50 pm

TonyWilson wrote:CBabbitt, I need to tell you my problem with the sequels: Neo isn't God. It's that simple.
That's why everyone walked out of the first film as though they had just dropped acid and opened their third eye. Neo had become more than the One, he had become the Messiah. What the writers did at the end of Reloaded, while certainly good writing and great drama, was completely destroy our faith. Morpehus became nothing more than another fool duped into the Machine's tricks. Neo was reduced to an anomaly for fuckssake!!!
The Wachowski's could have created a set of films more transcedental, more brave and revolutionary if they'd had the balls to stick with their original idea, but they scaled back. They took the easy way out. I think (and I coould be extremely off base here) that they realised that if they wanted to make another 2 movies they couldn't have Neo as an all powerful deity striding through the Matrix showing the people their world was an illusion because the tension would have been missing, in point of fact I think it would have created even more tension, drama and spectacle. But I can see why they decided to scale Neo back, scale back his metaphysical weight so he could fit within the designs of the films rather than be something far greater than the Machines could even comprehend; pure spirit coming to free us from opression. That idea is what got our adrenaline glands pumping at the end of the first film and why were so sorely disapointed with the sequels, the great awesome promise from the first movie was ruined.
I still appreciate the films and I understand to a greater or lesser extent "what they are about" but the decision to not make Neo a real God is fatal fundamental flaw which means the 2 sequels can only ever be good and never awe inspiring and spectacular like the first.


No need to babble about why I agree with you, but that's thought-for-thought what went through my head when I saw the Matrix sequels. Well said Tony.
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Postby Cbabbitt on Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:58 pm

AtomicHyperbole wrote:Babbit, just to note... Ginger Man's criticism is well meaning. You shouldn't take it negatively, as its positive criticism. I can't see anything in it that doesn't want to help you in building up your skills. As a board artist, I live and die by criticism... as a writer, you find you will too. Just take what you need, accept well-written criticism that actually makes an effort to understand your piece and stance, and walk away. Hopefully taking something with you.

The worst criticism is wanton negativity, as we so often see in the talkbacks. Ginger's giving you valid reasons for his views and backing them up clearly. You don't HAVE to take them on board, but it's pretty clear he wants to help more than hurt.

And that's a good thing! Don't be ashamed to take on board views. It's quite easy to sort the wheat from the chaff.



I know it's well meaning. He said so in his first post, and I appreciate that.
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Postby AtomicHyperbole on Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:11 pm

As much as I'm not a fan of the films (although their ambition is to be commended) I've got to congratulate you on getting people talking. That's a big talkback for an over two-year old movie and they appear to be behaving cognitively for a change. ;)
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Postby MasterWhedon on Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:22 pm

TonyWilson wrote:CBabbitt, I need to tell you my problem with the sequels: Neo isn't God. It's that simple.
That's why everyone walked out of the first film as though they had just dropped acid and opened their third eye. Neo had become more than the One, he had become the Messiah. What the writers did at the end of Reloaded, while certainly good writing and great drama, was completely destroy our faith. Morpehus became nothing more than another fool duped into the Machine's tricks. Neo was reduced to an anomaly for fuckssake!!!
The Wachowski's could have created a set of films more transcedental, more brave and revolutionary if they'd had the balls to stick with their original idea, but they scaled back. They took the easy way out. I think (and I coould be extremely off base here) that they realised that if they wanted to make another 2 movies they couldn't have Neo as an all powerful deity striding through the Matrix showing the people their world was an illusion because the tension would have been missing, in point of fact I think it would have created even more tension, drama and spectacle. But I can see why they decided to scale Neo back, scale back his metaphysical weight so he could fit within the designs of the films rather than be something far greater than the Machines could even comprehend; pure spirit coming to free us from opression. That idea is what got our adrenaline glands pumping at the end of the first film and why were so sorely disapointed with the sequels, the great awesome promise from the first movie was ruined.
I still appreciate the films and I understand to a greater or lesser extent "what they are about" but the decision to not make Neo a real God is fatal fundamental flaw which means the 2 sequels can only ever be good and never awe inspiring and spectacular like the first.

See, here's the thing though...

I agree with you in that that's exactly how I felt when I watched the first film, that Neo was some sort of Messiah, and that the end of the second film was crushing in finding out that Neo was just another pawn in a system of control... but I think that's exactly the point.

That crushing disappointment we felt was just a sliver of what Morpheus was going through. His entire world literally began to crumble around him, and he had to look at the world not as something mystical and other-worldly, but as something cold and cynical and all too real.

As much as The Matrix films are about faith and philosophy, they're also about duplicity. Yes, there are narrative hiccups throughout the series, but it isn't one that the first film dupes you, makes you a believer. You're supposed to fall for it and then be hit in the face with the reality of nope, you can't escape this--this is life.

I think Cbabbit's bit about expectations is spot on in that we all were waiting for Neo to do something more god-like. That fact that it never came was pretty much the point. He was supposed to perpetuate The Matrix, never break free from it.
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Postby TonyWilson on Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:36 pm

It was just so refreshing to see a real mythological story being told, something in the vein of Star Wars or LOTR, but much more modern, post modern even.
Sci Fi dystpoia is rife, but a series of films that actually brought all our modern wolrd concepts and beliefs to ancient myths about Gods and saviours would have been so much more engaging and original.
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Postby Nachokoolaid on Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:42 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:
TonyWilson wrote:CBab bitt, I need to tell you my problem with the sequels: Neo isn't God. It's that simple.
That's why everyone walked out of the first film as though they had just dropped acid and opened their third eye. Neo had become more than the One, he had become the Messiah. What the writers did at the end of Reloaded, while certainly good writing and great drama, was completely destroy our faith. Morpehus became nothing more than another fool duped into the Machine's tricks. Neo was reduced to an anomaly for fuckssake!!!
The Wachowski's could have created a set of films more transcedental, more brave and revolutionary if they'd had the balls to stick with their original idea, but they scaled back. They took the easy way out. I think (and I coould be extremely off base here) that they realised that if they wanted to make another 2 movies they couldn't have Neo as an all powerful deity striding through the Matrix showing the people their world was an illusion because the tension would have been missing, in point of fact I think it would have created even more tension, drama and spectacle. But I can see why they decided to scale Neo back, scale back his metaphysical weight so he could fit within the designs of the films rather than be something far greater than the Machines could even comprehend; pure spirit coming to free us from opression. That idea is what got our adrenaline glands pumping at the end of the first film and why were so sorely disapointed with the sequels, the great awesome promise from the first movie was ruined.
I still appreciate the films and I understand to a greater or lesser extent "what they are about" but the decision to not make Neo a real God is fatal fundamental flaw which means the 2 sequels can only ever be good and never awe inspiring and spectacular like the first.

See, here's the thing though...

I agree with you in that that's exactly how I felt when I watched the first film, that Neo was some sort of Messiah, and that the end of the second film was crushing in finding out that Neo was just another pawn in a system of control... but I think that's exactly the point.

That crushing disappointment we felt was just a sliver of what Morpheus was going through. His entire world literally began to crumble around him, and he had to look at the world not as something mystical and other-worldly, but as something cold and cynical and all too real.

As much as The Matrix films are about faith and philosophy, they're also about duplicity. Yes, there are narrative hiccups throughout the series, but it isn't one that the first film dupes you, makes you a believer. You're supposed to fall for it and then be hit in the face with the reality of nope, you can't escape this--this is life.

I think Cbabbit's bit about expectations is spot on in that we all were waiting for Neo to do something more god-like. That fact that it never came was pretty much the point. He was supposed to perpetuate The Matrix, never break free from it.


Something more God like? Shit, the man can fly and shit. What else does he need to do?
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Postby Seppuku on Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:46 pm

Nachokoolaid wrote:Something more God like? Shit, the man can fly and shit. What else does he need to do?


To understand the depth of this forthcoming post, it is advisable to set your brow to low immediately:

Talkback seppuku...taking over...must fight...can't withstand his brilliant powers any longer...

Talkback seppuku says: I can shit too, does that make me half a God?
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Postby Flumm on Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:49 pm

I was just browsing over the TB to teh article, and came across these posts by smacktfu. He does a most commendable job of summarising the majority of the story of the whole trilogy, in a way that is about as simple, clear and forthright as you will find. Worth a read...

by smackfu March 11th, 2006
10:12:37 AM CST
I can ease your mind, my brother. Here is a clear explanation of how the whole system works, and it should answer your questions: the unpredictability of human choice causes a system anomaly within the matrix. As it grows, the matrix grows more unstable. As the matrix grows more unstable, more people being to 'wake up' to the fact that they are not in a real world. As more and more people wake up and continue to think and act freely in the matrix, the matrix program becomes even more unstable, because everything that happens in a programmed system is calculated, and everything relies on the consistancy of everything else. Free will disrupts the consisntancy and predictability on which the system relies. It will eventually destabilize the matrix to the point that it crashes, and kill everyone who's plugged into it. Which will also kill all the machines, as they rely on the humans for energy. -This is why Zion's existance is nessecary to the machines. They need to have human beings in the real world, who go around 'unplugging' the people who have 'woken up', as Morpheus unplugged Neo when he 'woke up'. The humans who are unplugging other humans from the matrix think they are doing each other a favor, but in reality they are actually 'pruning' the matrix, cutting off the source of instability, keeping it healthy. The machines need this, they can't find the woken-up humans themselves. - But at the same time, as Zion grows in size, so does the rate at which the humans wakeup and unplug people. It's an exponential problem. Like Morpheus said 'in the past six months we've freed more minds than in the last 6 years'. So once Zion gets to a certain size, it becomes nessecary for the Machines to go in and wipe it out, because if the number of freed minds gets any bigger, the system will soon crash. At the time of Matrix Reloaded, countless thousands of people are jacking in and out of the Matrix, freeing even more minds, exposing their free will to it and unstabilizing it. So Zion gets destroyed, and the Matrix stabilizes as the number of people 'awake' in the Matrix suddenly drops from hundreds of thousands down to a tiny, insignificant number. But as that number begins to rise again, the machines will once again soon need humans who are outside of the Matrix to go around and disconnect those who have woken up. Which brings us to Neo. the One is essentially a program existing in a human body. This gives it the unique ability to exist both inside and outside the Matrix, which is nessecary to complete it's function. Which is; As stated earlier, once Zion is destroyed, the Machines need to 're-seed' it as a matter of survival. So once all the humans have been eradicated from the real world, the One goes back into the Matrix, 'wakes up' someone to the reality of the Matrix, then goes back out to the real world, locates their body and disconnects them, much as Morpheus did for Neo. He then repeates this procedure until he has 23 people, which is probably just enough people to procreate the species while avoiding pesky inbreeding, as a Zion full of Rain-Men would be no good to anyone. He then tells the people he's freed that he will one day return, tells them of the Oracle, and shows them how to disconnect people from the Matrix, then the One leaves the human body, goes back into the Matrix until it's time for him to return again.


Why the One needs to be part program, part machine
by smackfu March 11th, 2006
10:17:37 AM CST
The Architect had no reservations about giving Neo the choice because he felt that either way, the machines win. If Neo chooses the door on the right, he re-seeds Zion and everything goes about 'business as usual', and the cycle continues. Machines win, at least for another couple hundred years. If Neo chooses the door on the left, all of humanity gets wiped out. The machines will suffer a huge setback, but one that the Architect claimed they could deal with if they had to. They would have to find a new source of power, which probably won't be that hard for them to do (nuclear reactors, anyone?). It's a pain in the ass for the machines, but ultimately, they're still alive and the humans are not, which means once again, they win. The Architect, in his obvious arrogance in that entire scene, doesn't even consider it possible that there is anything Neo can do to defeat the Machines in 24 hours. And as stated by the Architect, choice is a human trait that is incomprehensible to the machines, therefore at the end of each cycle they require a human to make the choice of whether or not they continue with the cycle, or break it. If the machines function on a basis of logic, coupled with a pre-programmed sense of self-preservation, they are probably unable to actually make a choice that would wipe out 99% of their population, even if it would benefit them in the long run.


If that's all the One if for,they why is he so l33t?
by smackfu March 11th, 2006
10:31:50 AM CST
The One is program that emerges when the Matrix begins to reach critical mass, who's function is such: to make the choice for the machines to continue the cycle they're currently following, or break it. If he chooses to continue the cycle, the next part of his job is to go back into the matrix, wake some people up, take them back to zion, pretending that he's saving them and taking them to some safe refuge from the machines. Then he goes back into the matrix and the One program lies dormant until the instability again grows to the point where they have to reseed and reboot, the One emerges, and does it all over again. Neo's 'super powers' are basically just a function of the program, the One is nessecary to keep the cycle going, ergo he is designed to be indestructable to the agents who are also a part of the Matrix. No matter how fast or strong the agents are, the One will always be 'agents ability +1' so that they can never defeat him. Smith however, once separated from the matrix, was no longer a part of this safety protocol, since he is no longer directly controlled by the system, he can grow more powerful than Neo, if only by his numbers.


RE: The Machines Couldn't Have Done It Themselves?
by smackfu March 11th, 2006
12:25:16 PM CST
I meant that more figuratively than literally. With the humans doing it, they have the most effective system running, humans who spend all day jacking into the matrix simply to seek out 'potentials' and free them from the system. The machines fundamental lack of understanding of human concepts such as choice, freedom, etc would make them ill-suited to the task that morpheus and the other zion residents perform, which they perform with absolute dedication. As illustrated in the Matrix, it was Morpheus' ability to appeal to the deep yearnings that he knew were within Neo that allowed him to coax Neo into taking his vague awakening to the next level. The machines can't even grasp the concepts, they don't have the resources to do what morhpheus and co. do, it requires a human touch.
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Postby Leckomaniac on Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:11 pm

Wow Flumm you are right...those posts really do sum it up very well.
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Postby MasterWhedon on Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:22 pm

Cbabbit's Revolutions article is up HERE. Mighty fine work.
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Postby Cbabbitt on Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:04 pm

Thanks again. I'm glad someone enjoyed it.
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Postby DinoDeLaurentiis on Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:10 pm

Holy crappa! The Dino, he can a now die anna rest inna the peace after a reading alla that, no? Nice a job, eh paisan?

Now iffa only one of a you putzes would 'splain a the goddamn Flashdance a to me, eh?
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Postby MasterWhedon on Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:12 pm

I've been putting off buying the Matrix DVD set for a while now, but reading this has me desperately wanting to go back and revisit all three movies. Looks like my wallet's going to be taking a hit soon...

DinoDeLaurentiis wrote:Now iffa only one of a you putzes would 'splain a the goddamn Flashdance a to me, eh?

It's a journey of the mind, man.

Ying and yang.

Like, whoa...
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Postby Chairman Kaga on Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:34 pm

This is all a revelation?
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Postby MasterWhedon on Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:41 pm

Chairman Kaga wrote:This is all a revelation?

If you mean Cbabbit's article--it's not all new, but it does a really nice job of summing up the underlying themes of the films while pointing out where they failed and where they succeeded. It's a nice, honest exploration, one I wish I could've read shortly after the films came out.

Fact is, I've never been able to get in depth about the sequels with folks because most are just immediately turned off. I examined Reloaded a bit with friends before Revolutions, but no one wanted to talk about this stuff after Revolutions.

And, to be honest, there are a lot of pieces in the Matrix films that I haven't been able to put together. Not sure if it's because I haven't given them the time or if because they're just beyond me, but Cbabbit has filled a role I wish the Wachowski's would've back in the day.
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Postby Crayotic Rockwell on Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:31 pm

HE has to be commended on such a large article with so much thought put into it.. however it did come across kind of contradictory more than once.. but perhaps it all depends how you view the films themselves eh

Such as, I would find it hard to call The Wachowski's "brilliant storytellers" with the sheer number of missteps (many very simple ones) they made in both films (which cbabbit even admits to many of them)

"brave" or "epic" could work.. but "brilliant" seems like a misuse of the word
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Postby John-Locke on Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:57 pm

I've not got time to read all the TB's and what is no doubt another fine piece of writing by Cbabbitt, I did have time to read those post's by Smackfu Flumm posted and I agree they sum up what the Matrix was all about quite well but I was under the impression that Zion and what they thought was "The Real World" was actually just another part of the Matrix which explained how Neo could have super powers out there.
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Postby Flumm on Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:55 pm

Interview with Andy Wachowski

I gleamed this from the TB, I'm giving it a listen now. If not necassarily revealing of the actual plot mechanics of the films, might be worth a listen if you're curious to hear Wachowski talk about his philosophies to film making, science and art in general. It's not limited to the trilogy either, they talk about some other books and various interests of his, big bang theory, consciousness, self awareness etc...
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Postby Nachokoolaid on Wed Mar 15, 2006 12:29 am

seppukudkurosawa wrote:
Nachokoolaid wrote:Something more God like? Shit, the man can fly and shit. What else does he need to do?


To understand the depth of this forthcoming post, it is advisable to set your brow to low immediately:

Talkback seppuku...taking over...must fight...can't withstand his brilliant powers any longer...

Talkback seppuku says: I can shit too, does that make me half a God?


But can you fly while shitting?
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Postby monorail77 on Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:55 am

Cbabbitt's articles were pretty good, but sadly flawed (ironically, rather like the Matrix movies). I enjoyed his set-up, but his essay lacked specifics. What examples he gave could have been included in a less padded article. He also suffers from an excess of hyperbole.

But, I'm not trying to rip on the guy. I really enjoyed both of his articles and they made me want to go back and revisit all of the films, and the Animatrix too (which is pretty great on its own). He deserves kudos for his insights.
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Postby Chairman Kaga on Wed Mar 15, 2006 12:24 pm

John-Locke wrote: I was under the impression that Zion and what they thought was "The Real World" was actually just another part of the Matrix which explained how Neo could have super powers out there.


That is what I wanted to believe at the end of Reloaded but after Revolutions it seemed obvious they went the other way. This really bothers me in the context of the universe though.....Why would the machines which are so starved for energy (though they use the Matrix of humans and a "form of fusion") expend such a huge amount of resources digging into the Earth to destroy and then rebuild Zion?
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Postby MasterWhedon on Wed Mar 15, 2006 12:30 pm

Nachokoolaid wrote:
MasterWhedon wrote:I think Cbabbit's bit about expectations is spot on in that we all were waiting for Neo to do something more god-like. That fact that it never came was pretty much the point. He was supposed to perpetuate The Matrix, never break free from it.


Something more God like? Shit, the man can fly and shit. What else does he need to do?

Just saw this and thought I'd respond.

What I meant by "more god-like" was something above and beyond flying and doing kung fu. I expected him to be able to literally rewrite the world around him, or to at least shoot lasers from his fingertips or something.

I get that the machines only gave him limited abilities, but fuck if I wasn't imagining something more.
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Postby Chairman Kaga on Wed Mar 15, 2006 12:34 pm

Hell yeah Whedon I completely agree there.....He dives into Smith at the end of the first one and from that point on does nothing even remotely close to that cool for two more movies...
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Postby MasterWhedon on Wed Mar 15, 2006 12:39 pm

Chairman Kaga wrote:Hell yeah Whedon I completely agree there.....He dives into Smith at the end of the first one and from that point on does nothing even remotely close to that cool for two more movies...

Nothing cool in the Matrix, yes, but I love that his powers transcend into the real world. I had a genuine "oh fuck!" moment when he stopped that sentinel in Reloaded, and I thought it was a thing of beauty when he destroyed all those suckers on that charge into the machine city. (Actually, I wish that moment had been held longer.)
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Postby godzillasushi on Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:11 pm

Chairman Kaga wrote:
John-Locke wrote: I was under the impression that Zion and what they thought was "The Real World" was actually just another part of the Matrix which explained how Neo could have super powers out there.


That is what I wanted to believe at the end of Reloaded but after Revolutions it seemed obvious they went the other way. This really bothers me in the context of the universe though.....Why would the machines which are so starved for energy (though they use the Matrix of humans and a "form of fusion") expend such a huge amount of resources digging into the Earth to destroy and then rebuild Zion?


They didn't really want to re-build Zion did they? I thought they were trying to wipe it out but Neo was able to make a sort of treaty with them. They always wanted to wipe out the real world resistance, and they never needed more humans since the machines took everything over including the human race.

Anyway, the first movie is absolutely a classic. Beyond the story which felt unheard of, they brought so many new innovations to film making. The first was just about flawless.

I also have crappy taste in movies and I loved the second one. I think it has THE BEST car chase ever. Just because it's more recent doesn't mean it can't be considered great. I was on the edge of my seat for that whole 20 minute stretch. The key-maker was kind of lame but necessary. The giant white room stuff was decent. At least it was fun to speculate about the third one. I really dug everything.

The third one was a bit harder to get into. It starts off pretty slow and takes a while to get going. By the end you're wondering WTF is going on while watching the Dragon Ball Z Neo Smith fight. Still, I quite enjoyed it. Many of you complain about Trinity dying but that part set well with me. They were just so close and loved eachother so much, it was sad to realize that it was only a short time they were together. All in all, maybe she didn't have to die but it gave the movie some heart. The Zion battle was iffy.

Great trilogy in my eyes when watched as a whole.
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Postby DinoDeLaurentiis on Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:15 pm

Let's a not a forget that a the first picture, she hadda the top-a-notch score, too, no?
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Postby DennisMM on Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:19 pm

The whole thing collapsed for me, though I still like the first picture, when I realized the humans really weren't necessary as a power source. The humans themselves have built Zion close to the earth's core to tap geothermal energy (and how the hell did they manage that?). We see the machines can dig there to destroy Zion. Why wouldn't the machines transition to geothermal instead of the very lossy system of human batteries?
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Postby DinoDeLaurentiis on Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:23 pm

Hehehe... good point, eh? Personally, the trilogy, she fell apart for a the Dino with a the inna'troduction of a the "Rat" character anna his a "heroic redemption" inna the big battle of a the Zion anna the power suits, eh?

Holy crappa that was alla kinds of a the bad, no? It was a like a they hadda to pull out every cliche inna the book, no?
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Postby DennisMM on Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:28 pm

I believe he was the inspiration for Peter Jackson's Jimmy.

Also, I think he was their attempt at a viewer-identification character. We weren't going to be Neo or Morpheus, but maybe the typical geek teen male viewer could get out of the Matrix (and why did they drag the Rat out, anyway?), go to Zion and spend his time raising seaweed and polishing battlesuits.
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