minstrel wrote:Temple sucks for several reasons. First, the "artifacts" Indy is looking for have no mythological resonance for us Western Civilization types. We can relate to lost arks and holy grails because we've heard of them, and they're important in our mythologies. These weird magic stones in Temple? Who the fuck cares? Sure, Indy had to save the children, but that just smacked of Spielberg being blatantly manipulative. "We have to care! He has to save the CHILDREN!!" Argh.
Second, the supporting characters basically suck. Short Round is deliberately annoying and it seems that every line of dialogue he has is shouted at the top of his lungs. And he has lots of lines. And that shrieking woman keeps shrieking and endlessly emphasizing what a fish out of water she is and how she can't cope and after ten minutes of this she's intolerable. Where's good, strong, brave Marion when you need her?
Third, the villains are way too comic-book. In Raiders, Indy fought the Nazis, who are villains we can understand and hate for real reasons. These weirdos in Temple are just too unbelievable, like characters from a Lovecraft story or something. Indy should be dealing with more realistic villains.
Fourth, the film just seems assembled out of over-the-top set pieces. Jumping out of the airplane with nothing more than an inflatable raft? Sure. Why not slide down the mountainside on it while we're at it? The whole dinner scene was pathetic - nothing more than an extended sequence of gross-outs. I'm sure the twelve-year-olds in the audience loved it. Then there's the mine race on the rails - Spielberg just ticking another item off his to-do list. Essentially, this whole film was just an exercise in going through the motions. No heart, no inspiration. It plays like it was made to fulfill a contractual obligation.
Bloo wrote:I don't know if you're serious bro or sarcastic
minstrel wrote:Bloo wrote:I don't know if you're serious bro or sarcastic
I'm absolutely serious. Temple of Doom sucks. They lost good, entertaining characters like Sallah and Brody and the delicious villain Belloq and replaced them with nobody I can remember. That's in addition to the points I made in my earlier post. ToD is a lousy movie. It's dull and brainless and unworthy as an Indy adventure, IMO.
Bloo wrote:minstrel wrote:Bloo wrote:I don't know if you're serious bro or sarcastic
I'm absolutely serious. Temple of Doom sucks. They lost good, entertaining characters like Sallah and Brody and the delicious villain Belloq and replaced them with nobody I can remember. That's in addition to the points I made in my earlier post. ToD is a lousy movie. It's dull and brainless and unworthy as an Indy adventure, IMO.
and in the third one they replaced good, entertaining characters like Sallah and Brody with humorless, caractiures named Sallah and Brody.
Nothing compares to Raiders, it's a freaking Masterpiece...but Temple is miles better then Indiana Jones and the Daddy Issues
just because Lucas had a dog named Indiana, doesn't mean that Indiana had to have a dog named Indiana. I don't care where he got his name.
And your argument that the stones don't work because we don't have a connection to them...weak fucking sauce. They were a McGuffin, nothing more nothing less. Same with the ark and the grail. Hell how many people knew what the fuck the holy grail was before Indiana Jones? and then how many shows ripped off the idea of searching for the grail AFTER Indy? We only have a connection because Lucas created a connection. The McGuffin became more important then the characters.
short Round, for all his annoying scream at the top of you lungness, at least served a prupose and had his own hero moments. What the fuck did Marcus and Sallah do in Crusade except get lost and kidnapped and then offer nothing to the final showdown?
caruso_stalker217 wrote:I seem to recall having this discussion three years ago.
ToD still has Indy looking for fucking rocks.
minstrel wrote:caruso_stalker217 wrote:I seem to recall having this discussion three years ago.
ToD still has Indy looking for fucking rocks.
Fixed it for you.
minstrel wrote:caruso_stalker217 wrote:I seem to recall having this discussion three years ago.
ToD still has Indy looking for fucking rocks.
Fixed it for you.
Peven wrote:if you watch all 4 Indy movies in a row shouldn't you watch Temple first so things go in chronological order?
papalazeru wrote:Peven wrote:if you watch all 4 Indy movies in a row shouldn't you watch Temple first so things go in chronological order?
Theres an Indy 4 movie? Whens it coming out then?
Peven wrote:papalazeru wrote:Peven wrote:if you watch all 4 Indy movies in a row shouldn't you watch Temple first so things go in chronological order?
Theres an Indy 4 movie? Whens it coming out then?
I confess that while I have heard about a 4th Indy movie I have never actually seen it with my own eyes...so I can't absolutely verify its existence
papalazeru wrote:Peven wrote:if you watch all 4 Indy movies in a row shouldn't you watch Temple first so things go in chronological order?
Theres an Indy 4 movie? Whens it coming out then?
Bloo wrote:River Phoenix was great as a young Indy, and the sequence worked (and it led to the brilliant Young Indy series) but I felt it gave away too many mysteries that weren't really mysteries. I don't care where Indy got the whip, his hat, or that the dog's name was Indiana. You can already see Lucas bloating his prequels with that one scene.
Fievel wrote:Bloo wrote:River Phoenix was great as a young Indy, and the sequence worked (and it led to the brilliant Young Indy series) but I felt it gave away too many mysteries that weren't really mysteries. I don't care where Indy got the whip, his hat, or that the dog's name was Indiana. You can already see Lucas bloating his prequels with that one scene.
And Last Crusade Brody = Prequel C-3PO. Seriously.
The reason I like Crusade over ToD is simple - it's a fun ride. Raiders was a fun ride. Temple of Doom was not fun. It was dark and menacing - two qualities I love in movies, just not Indiana Jones films.
Peven wrote:Indy frees a bunch of enslaved kids, helps save poor villagers from starvation and ruin, acts a father-figure, falls in love.....imo it made him more of a hero than Crusade easily, where all he did was stop a guy from living a long time in a cave.....seriously, has that not ever occurred to anyone? that is the only accomplishment in that movie. he didn't do anything to help the allies win the war, didn't throw a monkey wrench in Hitlers plans whatsoever, a lot of running around for nothing, as we see, Indy wasn't needed at all, since as soon as the bad guys would have tried to remove the Grail its powers would have been rendered useless. the Grail is the ultimate McGuffin in that movie, and that is why Crusade is clearly the weakest of the first three movies....
Fievel wrote:The reason I like Crusade over ToD is simple - it's a fun ride. Raiders was a fun ride. Temple of Doom was not fun. It was dark and menacing - two qualities I love in movies, just not Indiana Jones films.
Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote: or the fact that even if anyone could become immoral for drinking from he cup it still don't protect you from dying from a bullet or something afterwards, so invincibility isn't granted from it from what I can gather.
Spandau Belly wrote:I also don't see how anybody can say TEMPLE is just Spielberg going through the motions, if you want to call it a bloated hollow spectacle, I disagree but can at least understand that point of view. But if anything Spielberg's killing himself to go overthetop. The movie is full of scenes we've seen in other movies, but TEMPLE does them better than any other movie I can think of.
That openning scene is just brilliant. The way it goes back an forth with Indy and Lao Che always having one more ace up their sleave. It's Spielberg trying to do James Bond, but he ends up doing that type of scene better than I've seen in any actual Bond movie.
Lots of movies have scenes where characters go to some foreign land and get served gross things as food, but TEMPLE is the king with its snake surprise, chilled monkey brains, and eyeball soup.
The big sacrifice scenes are great. Both the first one where we see what happens when the sacrifice goes as planned and the later one when Kate is going to be sacrificed. We've scene coutnless movies where somebody is sacrificed in a ritual. But Spielberg just pours on the sense of ceremony and evil. If you want to see this type of scene done in a boring anti-climactic way, check out the recent reboot of CONAN THE BARBARIAN which completes my sanctuary of 1,000 poorly handled sacrifice scenes.
TheBaxter wrote:i don't need to drink from some cup to become immoral.
Peven wrote:I respectfully disagree, I think ToD is easily the second best Indy movie and i think if you watch Gunga Din, obviously an inspiration for ToD, you'll see Spielberg was doing anything but going through the motions. no heart? man, I don't even know what to say to that, the way Short Round is affected seeing his hero, his pseudo father, being turned by the zombie juice was one of the most emotionally intense scenes of any of the Indy movies
tell me how Indy thought he was saving anyone or really hurting the nazis by finding the Grail? he wasn't under the illusion that it had any kind of power like the Ark which could have been used by the nazis, he was far from ignorant being that his father was THE authority on it. he could have gone home after saving his father. it was all for glory, hence the line in the movie where he is asked, "do you seek the Grail for HIS glory or your own"? as for villains, Crusade easily is hands down the weakest in that department as well, none can compare to the villains in Raiders or Temple, pedestrian and non-threatening, even Hitler is reduced to a bit of comic relief. Crusade is insubstantial fluff, innocuous but little more than an afterthought patched on to the franchise to make some $, something that was apparently repeated a couple years ago.
minstrel wrote:Peven wrote:I respectfully disagree, I think ToD is easily the second best Indy movie and i think if you watch Gunga Din, obviously an inspiration for ToD, you'll see Spielberg was doing anything but going through the motions. no heart? man, I don't even know what to say to that, the way Short Round is affected seeing his hero, his pseudo father, being turned by the zombie juice was one of the most emotionally intense scenes of any of the Indy movies
I found that scene blatantly manipulative, probably because I already didn't like Short Round. He started the movie as a caricature and that's what he stayed. I never once bought him as a real boy; he was just loud comic relief. He's there for pretty much the same reason crap screenwriters always have a scene in which the dog is saved from imminent death. The audience is supposed to go "Awwww ... the dog lives!"tell me how Indy thought he was saving anyone or really hurting the nazis by finding the Grail? he wasn't under the illusion that it had any kind of power like the Ark which could have been used by the nazis, he was far from ignorant being that his father was THE authority on it. he could have gone home after saving his father. it was all for glory, hence the line in the movie where he is asked, "do you seek the Grail for HIS glory or your own"? as for villains, Crusade easily is hands down the weakest in that department as well, none can compare to the villains in Raiders or Temple, pedestrian and non-threatening, even Hitler is reduced to a bit of comic relief. Crusade is insubstantial fluff, innocuous but little more than an afterthought patched on to the franchise to make some $, something that was apparently repeated a couple years ago.
Once again, I'm not defending Crusade, I'm slamming Temple! You can't defend Temple by ragging on some other movie. As I said before, I prefer Crusade, largely because of Connery and Phoenix, but that doesn't mean I think it's a great film. But Temple doesn't even have Connery or Phoenix. It's got pretty much zero.
Spielberg is as good as any director I've ever seen at putting together exciting set pieces. But he's not good at developing characters or resolving plots. For those aspects of storytelling, he is entirely dependent on his script. If the script is good (Jaws, Raiders), the movie is great. But Spielberg doesn't have the chops to create a great movie from a weak script. Temple and Crusade both have weak scripts.
minstrel wrote:That openning scene is just brilliant. The way it goes back an forth with Indy and Lao Che always having one more ace up their sleave. It's Spielberg trying to do James Bond, but he ends up doing that type of scene better than I've seen in any actual Bond movie.
The opening scene is the opposite of brilliant. We poisoned you, Indy, and now you have to chase all over the place to get the antidote! I felt so sorry for Harrison Ford when I saw this scene in the theater. Spielberg must have been saying "OK, Harrison, you've just been poisoned, so you're getting sicker and sicker and are about to die, but as you get sicker, you do more and more heroic action-hero things! It'll be great!" It was utterly unbelievable. I HATE that opening sequence. The opening of Raiders is the height of believability compared to this (and I LOVE the opening of Raiders!). And then when Ford finally drinks the antidote, it works immediately and everything is just fine again. Blah. I don't buy it for a second. I HATE HATE HATE the opening of Temple. Come on, guys, is this crap the best you can do?
SilentScream wrote:"I wasn't happy with Temple Of Doom at all....there's not an ounce of my own personal feeling in Temple Of Doom."
Spielberg himself quoted from The Complete Indiana Jones: The Definitive Story Behind All Four Films.
And later from a documentry made about the flick:
"Temple Of Doom is my least favourite of the trilogy. I look back and I say the greatest thing I got out of that was that I met Kate Capshaw. We married years later and that to me was the reason I was fated to make Temple Of Doom."
Damning stuff from the Man himself and though this movie has it's admirers I'm with the filmmaker himself on this.
Al Shut wrote:Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote: or the fact that even if anyone could become immoral for drinking from he cup it still don't protect you from dying from a bullet or something afterwards, so invincibility isn't granted from it from what I can gather.
As far as I remember they used the Grail to heal Jones Seniors bullet wound
Al Shut wrote:The opening is brilliant. In fact Temple is on TV tonight and I know for sure what I'll be watching the beginning of. Exchange sicker with physically abused/wounded and you have a standard criticism for every action movie ever made. The opening perfectly sets the tone for the kind of implausibility you can expect from the rest of the movie (inlateable boat, mine lores). Unbelievable you say? Anything goes I say!
minstrel wrote:Spandau Belly wrote:I also don't see how anybody can say TEMPLE is just Spielberg going through the motions, if you want to call it a bloated hollow spectacle, I disagree but can at least understand that point of view. But if anything Spielberg's killing himself to go overthetop. The movie is full of scenes we've seen in other movies, but TEMPLE does them better than any other movie I can think of.
Spielberg is a very talented filmmaker and on ToD he was working with a huge budget. So of course, when he goes over the top, he goes WAY over the top. But that doesn't make it good. It doesn't make me feel for the characters. It's just "More! Bigger!" as if that's all that's necessary to make a great adventure movie.
Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:He said similar things about The Lost World. And that was a better film than Jurassic Park.
minstrel wrote:Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:He said similar things about The Lost World. And that was a better film than Jurassic Park.
Your credibility score has just hit negative numbers. You are now sentenced to defend this statement with facts and evidence, if any exist, until such time as you regain credibility or you are dead.
minstrel wrote:The opening scene is the opposite of brilliant. We poisoned you, Indy, and now you have to chase all over the place to get the antidote! I felt so sorry for Harrison Ford when I saw this scene in the theater. Spielberg must have been saying "OK, Harrison, you've just been poisoned, so you're getting sicker and sicker and are about to die, but as you get sicker, you do more and more heroic action-hero things! It'll be great!" It was utterly unbelievable. I HATE that opening sequence. The opening of Raiders is the height of believability compared to this (and I LOVE the opening of Raiders!). And then when Ford finally drinks the antidote, it works immediately and everything is just fine again. Blah. I don't buy it for a second. I HATE HATE HATE the opening of Temple. Come on, guys, is this crap the best you can do?
caruso_stalker217 wrote:minstrel wrote:The opening scene is the opposite of brilliant. We poisoned you, Indy, and now you have to chase all over the place to get the antidote! I felt so sorry for Harrison Ford when I saw this scene in the theater. Spielberg must have been saying "OK, Harrison, you've just been poisoned, so you're getting sicker and sicker and are about to die, but as you get sicker, you do more and more heroic action-hero things! It'll be great!" It was utterly unbelievable. I HATE that opening sequence. The opening of Raiders is the height of believability compared to this (and I LOVE the opening of Raiders!). And then when Ford finally drinks the antidote, it works immediately and everything is just fine again. Blah. I don't buy it for a second. I HATE HATE HATE the opening of Temple. Come on, guys, is this crap the best you can do?
The fact that you're complaining about this tells me you've missed the point of this film entirely.
I'm sure next you'll be telling us this isn't what happened last week, they've just cheated us, and that he didn't get out of the cock-a-doodie car.
caruso_stalker217 wrote:I'm afraid I'm gonna have to side with Kirks on this one. THE LOST WORLD pretty much beats JURASSIC PARK, hands down. And then they let the T-Rex loose in San Diego and then... not so much.
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