Manhunt 2: I SPIT ON YOUR GAME!

All things controller driven will be talked about here.

Postby Doc Holliday on Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:03 am

godzillasushi wrote:
Doc Holliday wrote:
godzillasushi wrote:Well said Andy "wheelchair accessable" Moogle. You are right.

And as a matter of fact, Killer 7 and BMX XXX just made my point better from a previous post. Nintendo publishes a few adult games, they just happen to be the worst of the bunch. How was this any different? (Yes stores don't sell AO games but Nintendo can online)

Anyway, the motion controller is a little far.


Anyone think that it would not have been banned if the ESRB got their hands on it first? I think that if anything the ESRB might have let this one sneak past if the story from the UK didn't break first. These ratings things always seem to be based on whoever gets to it first.

"Oh, well they passed it, so I guess it must be alright."

Sweden will be flooded with violence when this game comes out. You better be careful Andy. Sweden will become the LA of the world. Better practice up on your GTA-style kill skills.


Do I hypothesise that this game will lead to killing sprees? No, I do not. It would seem the finer points of my argument are lost on you.

Happy shooting, kid.

:P


Ah I wasn't really reffering to anyone elses arguments or anything, just running my fingers. Just a joke. :)

Kid on an Escalator happens to live in soon to be war-torn Sweden.


Aha! Then it is I who owes you the apology :oops:
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Postby ThisIsTheGirl on Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:18 am

Chairman Kaga wrote:And if they didn't have that oversite ie the "Nintendo seal of approval" video games would not have rebounded as quickly as they did following the crash of 83-84. They put that policy in place to address the lack of oversite on Atari's systems that lead to a glut of poor quality 3rd party software that burst the marketplace originally.



*touches nose, nods enthusiastically*
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Postby King Of Nowhere on Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:23 am

Now I'm thinking back a while here, but couldn't Rockstar change the blood to green & get it passed?
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Postby godzillasushi on Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:32 am

king_of_nowhere wrote:Now I'm thinking back a while here, but couldn't Rockstar change the blood to green & get it passed?


I think so, but there is also the acts which are used to commit the killings. I think it's more about the methods depicted, then the actual gore.




Also, I just remembered a very brutal game that came out recently called Condemned. I finished that and it was fairly rough. Lots of realistic melee combat. Anyway, thought I might throw that out.
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Postby kid on an escalator on Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:47 am

godzillasushi wrote:
king_of_nowhere wrote:Now I'm thinking back a while here, but couldn't Rockstar change the blood to green & get it passed?


I think so, but there is also the acts which are used to commit the killings. I think it's more about the methods depicted, then the actual gore.




Also, I just remembered a very brutal game that came out recently called Condemned. I finished that and it was fairly rough. Lots of realistic melee combat. Anyway, thought I might throw that out.

Condemned was great imo. There is a sequel coming next year. Interesting to see how they will continue the story.

Anyway, to stay on-topic... I doubt green blood would be enough. Basically what sushi said, it's the methods and such that are the worst part.

Check out all the kills in the first game HERE.
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Postby Fawst on Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:30 pm

ThisIsTheGirl wrote:
Chairman Kaga wrote:And if they didn't have that oversite ie the "Nintendo seal of approval" video games would not have rebounded as quickly as they did following the crash of 83-84. They put that policy in place to address the lack of oversite on Atari's systems that lead to a glut of poor quality 3rd party software that burst the marketplace originally.



*touches nose, nods enthusiastically*


Meh ;)

Two things about that... the Seal of Approval was fine and dandy, and I'm glad they did it. Those games that were released for the NES with no seal like "Bible Games," or whatever it was called, were HORRIBLE. My friend got it for Christmas one year, and I took pitty and let him borrow Dragon Warrior. His mom found it and threw it out thinking he bought it. Heh. Anyways, I still blame it for the censorship of games. It's one of those things that doesn't make a ton of sense, video games were considered a toy for children back then, but Atari had far more adult gamers than kid gamers. And I know a few people whose parents saw how cool Zelda was and took over the TV after they went to bed for all-night marathons trying to beat the game. Umm... what was my point... oh yah, that the SoA was in place because of game quality, not content. At least, it SHOULD have been that way.

The other thing, and I'm agreeing with you about the SoA for this one, is that Atari had games that were VERY adult in nature, but also very poor in quality. I mean, it WAS Atari. Beat'em and Eat'em, Custer's Revenge... yikes. BaE was in poor taste, but it was an adult game. *shrug* Custer's Revenge, though... rape an Indian Squaw? Again, yikes. So yes, the SoA being in place prevented STUPID shit from being released. Aaaaaaaaand, now I'm realizing that I'm killing my own argument by saying that rape is something that should be banned from a video game, but trying to justify graphic murder. Dammit.

I need time to ponder.
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Postby godzillasushi on Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:43 pm

I have one of those bible games in great conditions called Exodus. It's actually one of my favorite games of all time. The cart is differently shaped and black just like those types of unlicensed products.

It doesn't suck! :evil:

EDIT: Here you go http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_%28video_game%29
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Postby Fawst on Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:59 pm

You sure it isn't this game?:)
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Postby godzillasushi on Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:24 pm

Fawst wrote:You sure it isn't this game?:)


Hmmm i've never heard of that one, yet it says one of the most influential games ever created.

Pre-RPG, suck on that Oblivion.

I've actually never touched an Ultima game before. :oops:
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Postby TonyWilson on Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:04 pm

Regarding the point about the bobo dolls i think it's important to mention that they were kids and we are talking about a game that should be played by adults only. I can see the point Doc is making and it's a good one but I wonder how much it really applies when it comes to adults.
I think it's obvious kids are affected much more strongly by games or movies or books or tv shows than adult are but that's why we have ratings afterall.
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Postby The Vicar on Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:12 pm

ThisIsTheGirl wrote:I think of it as more of a tribute to Winslow's memory, Vic! :lol


You're one of a kind, TITG.
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Postby The Ginger Man on Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:27 pm

Fawst wrote:
The ESRB wrote:The ESRB is an organization that rates computer and video games in terms of age-appropriateness and game content. We do not create, publish, market or sell entertainment software.


No, they just ban software with AO ratings! Douches.


The ESRB didn't ban the game. They just gave it the appropriate rating. As far as the US is concerned, Sony and Nintendo are the reason the game's release is stalled. The game has not been banned in America. But none of the consoles want to publish it "as is."
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Postby kid on an escalator on Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:20 pm

The Ginger Man wrote:
Fawst wrote:
The ESRB wrote:The ESRB is an organization that rates computer and video games in terms of age-appropriateness and game content. We do not create, publish, market or sell entertainment software.


No, they just ban software with AO ratings! Douches.


The ESRB didn't ban the game. They just gave it the appropriate rating. As far as the US is concerned, Sony and Nintendo are the reason the game's release is stalled. The game has not been banned in America. But none of the consoles want to publish it "as is."

AO is pretty much the same as a ban considering how the society as a whole look at AO games and it's the same with NC-17 rated movies. Many stores won't even sell AO rated games so it's no wonder no console maker want to license a game like that. It would bomb and it would also hurt their image.

I don't see why the game should get AO and not M since they mean pretty much the same and there is only one year difference. It's ridiculous really.
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Postby The Ginger Man on Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:30 pm

kid on an escalator wrote:
The Ginger Man wrote:
Fawst wrote:
The ESRB wrote:The ESRB is an organization that rates computer and video games in terms of age-appropriateness and game content. We do not create, publish, market or sell entertainment software.


No, they just ban software with AO ratings! Douches.


The ESRB didn't ban the game. They just gave it the appropriate rating. As far as the US is concerned, Sony and Nintendo are the reason the game's release is stalled. The game has not been banned in America. But none of the consoles want to publish it "as is."

AO is pretty much the same as a ban considering how the society as a whole look at AO games and it's the same with NC-17 rated movies. Many stores won't even sell AO rated games so it's no wonder no console maker want to license a game like that. It would bomb and it would also hurt their image.

I don't see why the game should get AO and not M since they mean pretty much the same and there is only one year difference. It's ridiculous really.


The ESRB has existed for 13 years. In that time, they have rated 3 games AO. The Punisher, ThrillKill, and now Manhunt 2. GTA: San Andreas was re-rated AO and is really part of a completely different discussion.

Three AO's in 13 years shows an almost unwavering tendancy towards "acceptable" ratings. So why not explore the possibility that Manhunt 2 received an AO because it deserved it?
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Postby King Psyz on Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:32 pm

That was too bad about the punisher game too, I was looking forward to that one...
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Postby godzillasushi on Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:28 am

kid on an escalator wrote:I don't see why the game should get AO and not M since they mean pretty much the same and there is only one year difference. It's ridiculous really.


I agree. Usually the only thing seperating them is some form of graphic nudity. God of War, I read online, had some scenes of that nature. It's confusing what they think is AO and M. A good majority of M games should probably be rated AO in the first place. If GTA gets an M rating then it pretty much is a broken system. Talk about a grey area...And I still think the only reason M2 was rated AO by the ESRB is because the UK decided to ban it. They follow each others lead.
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Postby The Ginger Man on Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:20 am

godzillasushi wrote:
kid on an escalator wrote:I don't see why the game should get AO and not M since they mean pretty much the same and there is only one year difference. It's ridiculous really.


I agree. Usually the only thing seperating them is some form of graphic nudity. God of War, I read online, had some scenes of that nature. It's confusing what they think is AO and M. A good majority of M games should probably be rated AO in the first place. If GTA gets an M rating then it pretty much is a broken system. Talk about a grey area...And I still think the only reason M2 was rated AO by the ESRB is because the UK decided to ban it. They follow each others lead.


It's not the amount of violence, but the expression of violence that has separated MH2 from other games like GTA or God of War. For instance, you can rip off someone's testicles with a pair of pliers. On the Wii, the player actually simulates these motions by twisting and yanking the wiimote. In regards to nudity, two of the game's stages are a Brothel and a Sex Club.

I would also point out that Manhunt 1 was banned in Australia, New Zealand, and Germany, but the ESRB (and the UK) both rated it Mature.

Blame the game, not the rating's boards.
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Postby ThisIsTheGirl on Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:44 am

I knew the Wii version would have added to this controversy.

Thing is, Ginger, the BBFC have a history of going way over-the-top. As far as I'm aware, we're the only country in the world who made cuts to Attack of the Clones (Jango Fett's headbutt - headbutts are verboten on UK screens). And while I'm sure the expression of violence in Manhunt 2 is a step up on the original, I could say the same about Hostel 2 in relation to Hostel. I appreciate the simulated element with the Wiimote changes the nature of this - but as I've said, we all managed to grow up with OPERATION WOLF without wanting to go on a kill-crazy rampage with a sub-machine gun, ya know? So the Wiimote argument doesn't do a whole lot for me. It's a tiny piece of plastic shaped like a remote control. I can walk into any gamestore and buy a controller shaped like a gun - how can that be better?

PS - thx for chiming in on this though - I've been waiting for you!
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Postby The Ginger Man on Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:49 pm

ThisIsTheGirl wrote:I knew the Wii version would have added to this controversy.

Thing is, Ginger, the BBFC have a history of going way over-the-top. As far as I'm aware, we're the only country in the world who made cuts to Attack of the Clones (Jango Fett's headbutt - headbutts are verboten on UK screens). And while I'm sure the expression of violence in Manhunt 2 is a step up on the original, I could say the same about Hostel 2 in relation to Hostel. I appreciate the simulated element with the Wiimote changes the nature of this - but as I've said, we all managed to grow up with OPERATION WOLF without wanting to go on a kill-crazy rampage with a sub-machine gun, ya know? So the Wiimote argument doesn't do a whole lot for me. It's a tiny piece of plastic shaped like a remote control. I can walk into any gamestore and buy a controller shaped like a gun - how can that be better?

PS - thx for chiming in on this though - I've been waiting for you!


Glad to join in, TTIG!

Firstly, being American, I don't feel I have enough knowledge to comment on the BBFC and other bannings. So for any points I do bring up, it's safe to assume I'm talking about the ESRB decision.

Secondly, I get what you're saying with the Operation Wolf comparison, but aside from both games having periphrials (on the Wii version), that's the only thing they have in common. It's about what is happening on the screen. If Operation Wolf allowed me to shove my gun up a guy's asshole and unload an entire clip in graphic detail...then I think they'd be on the same level.

Now, I haven't read everything in regards to the BBFC ruling, or other foreign rulings, but have any of the official government organiziations cited "the game causing violence in kids" as a reason for banning? I've seen the "games don't make people kill people argument" pop-up alot in here and just wondering if it's actually relevent to this particular discussion. Like I said...don't know what's going on in the UK.
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Postby magicmonkey on Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:11 pm

The Ginger Man wrote: For instance, you can rip off someone's testicles with a pair of pliers. On the Wii, the player actually simulates these motions by twisting and yanking the wiimote.


This game sounds awesome! For sheer audacity alone, Bravo! Bwahahaha.
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Postby MonkeyM666 on Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:42 am

The Ginger Man wrote: On the Wii, the player actually simulates these motions by twisting and yanking the wiimote. In regards to nudity, two of the game's stages are a Brothel and a Sex Club.


:shock:

I wouldn’t find that very fun, and they’re just helping the crazies with their legal defence.
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Postby papalazeru on Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:21 am

The Ginger Man wrote: For instance, you can rip off someone's testicles with a pair of pliers. On the Wii, the player actually simulates these motions by twisting and yanking the wiimote. In regards to nudity, two of the game's stages are a Brothel and a Sex Club.


Right...I'm buying a chipped PS2 JUST FOR THIS GAME.

Everytime I try that out on someone I get arrested...Boo! Now there's a game to help me quell my desire for twisting knackers off and going to sex clubs? How can that be bad for society?
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Postby ThisIsTheGirl on Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:48 am

The Ginger Man wrote:Now, I haven't read everything in regards to the BBFC ruling, or other foreign rulings, but have any of the official government organiziations cited "the game causing violence in kids" as a reason for banning? I've seen the "games don't make people kill people argument" pop-up alot in here and just wondering if it's actually relevent to this particular discussion. Like I said...don't know what's going on in the UK.


Well, here's what I know: in the original statement regarding the ban, the BBFC basically said that, because all you do in the game is kill people, there was not enough "distance" between the player and the game, and they went on to say that issuing a certificate to the game would risk the possibility of "unjustifiable harm" to adults and minors. Bearing in mind that the game was aimed at adults, I don't get what the "risk to children" was - unless they are saying either [a] that their own ratings system doesn't work, and is therefore meaningless or [b] Adults could play this and then decide to go around hurting children. Neither one rings true for me.

I should point out that on these kinds of matters, the US and Europe have a major difference in outlook: the US is much more blasé about violence, but tends to get into a frenzy where sexual content is concerned. Here in the UK, we don't mind the sex so much (actually, we quite like it), but have a lot of trouble with the violence.
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Postby Pacino86845 on Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:56 am

Pac Man is also a game where "all you do is kill people."
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Postby Doc Holliday on Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:00 am

To be fair Pacino, you simply reduce them to an ocular state for a minute, then the fuckers regenerate and come after you twice as pissed as ever.

Unless you're defending the rights of assorted fruit, in which case I concede the point.

:P
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Postby tapehead on Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:01 am

you can't kill ghosts - then there's all those dots you eat...
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Postby MonkeyM666 on Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:08 am

A famous psychologist in the 80's wrote:It is ridiculous claiming that video games influence children. For instance, if Pac-man affected kids born in the eighties, we should by now have a bunch of teenagers who run around in darkened rooms and eat pills while listening to monotonous electronic music.
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Postby thebostonlocksmith on Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:16 am

I think that the whole thing is a little on the strange side...

It's been mentioned but you can buy guns that you wave at the screen and shoot people, i don't think they get accredited with many shootings that happen...

If there was a serious belief that the showing of violence in games and films would create copycat behaviour to the society as a whole then they wouldn't be allowed to make them at all... I wouldn't describe the game as 'fine art' although i don't think that it can be held up as a shining example of all that is wrong with the world...
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Postby papalazeru on Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:24 am

MonkeyM666 wrote:
A famous psychologist in the 80's wrote:It is ridiculous claiming that video games influence children. For instance, if Pac-man affected kids born in the eighties, we should by now have a bunch of teenagers who run around in darkened rooms and eat pills while listening to monotonous electronic music.


Anyone up for some APHEX TWIN and a Dove?
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Postby MonkeyM666 on Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:33 am

thebostonlocksmith wrote:I think that the whole thing is a little on the strange side...

It's been mentioned but you can buy guns that you wave at the screen and shoot people, i don't think they get accredited with many shootings that happen...

If there was a serious belief that the showing of violence in games and films would create copycat behaviour to the society as a whole then they wouldn't be allowed to make them at all... I wouldn't describe the game as 'fine art' although i don't think that it can be held up as a shining example of all that is wrong with the world...


I've always wondered about the archade games where you use actual lifelike guns, with pump action etc. Are they not more realistic then some of the games that have been banned, as well as having an actual gun like guns. The newer versions of those games I've seen are pretty full on. What's the deal with that?
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Postby ThisIsTheGirl on Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:35 am

Well said, Boston! The fact is, nobody has ever been able to prove a link between videogames and violence - or movies and violence, for that matter.

On the other hand, there has been more than one study demonstrating that if you're a soldier who sees wartime combat, you are considerably more likely to end up with mental instabilities...


MonkeyM666 wrote:
A famous psychologist in the 80's wrote:It is ridiculous claiming that video games influence children. For instance, if Pac-man affected kids born in the eighties, we should by now have a bunch of teenagers who run around in darkened rooms and eat pills while listening to monotonous electronic music.


This is The Zone's Favourite Misquote...


Marcus Brigstocke wrote:Ah! Bloody Pacman....

It is my joke. I wrote it, then I took the rest of the day off as I was so chuffed with it. I am gutted that it has been claimed and passed around by so many people. Intellectual property law will not save me, the false claims will continue until I am man enough to give it all up. All I can say is -- it seems that it is very unlikely that it was written by a Nintendo employee in 1989, being as Pac Man was still around and not much of a childhood memory, there were very few claims that gaming influenced childrens behaviour, and that the wording of it is identical to how it has been deliverd in my stand up routine for 6 years! For those that are interested it has also been atributed to Bill Gates, but then so has Windows! Bitter? Well perhaps just a little. It was sent to me by someone at Channel 4 a few years back after I did it on Channel 4 in a late night stand up show!


More here...
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Postby MonkeyM666 on Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:39 am

Marcus Brigstocke wrote:Ah! Bloody Pacman....

It is my joke. I wrote it, then I took the rest of the day off as I was so chuffed with it. I am gutted that it has been claimed and passed around by so many people. Intellectual property law will not save me, the false claims will continue until I am man enough to give it all up. All I can say is -- it seems that it is very unlikely that it was written by a Nintendo employee in 1989, being as Pac Man was still around and not much of a childhood memory, there were very few claims that gaming influenced childrens behaviour, and that the wording of it is identical to how it has been deliverd in my stand up routine for 6 years! For those that are interested it has also been atributed to Bill Gates, but then so has Windows! Bitter? Well perhaps just a little. It was sent to me by someone at Channel 4 a few years back after I did it on Channel 4 in a late night stand up show!


Well there you go... I actually thought it was a real quote from a real pro. hehehe... I still love it though :D
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Postby thebostonlocksmith on Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:47 am

I just think that the most worrying thing here is that the people (whoever they are) that decide violence is too excessive will start to look at a broader spectrum of games and tie them all in together...

I know that one of the main things with this is that they look upon the fantasy element... If you are killing people in a game where your name is 'Mario' or 'Link' then they see it as you playing a role... however there can be exactly the same level of violence in a second game, but because it implies that the person or main character is YOU, it means that there will be some kind of mind-meld and that you will take on the faculties of a fictional character...

It's pointedly bizarre and a bit alarming to think that people actually believe that the bluring of fantasy and fiction can be so easily replicated...
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Postby ThisIsTheGirl on Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:48 am

MonkeyM666 wrote:Well there you go... I actually thought it was a real quote from a real pro. hehehe... I still love it though :D


It's a great gag - I just feel sorry for the guy who wrote it!

Over the years, I've had emails claiming it was said by everyone from the CEO of Nintendo, thru a US senator, to a famous psychologist. I'd be gutted if I wrote something that funny but didn't get any credit!
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Postby Doc Holliday on Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:49 am

Trying to reduce the counter-argument to simply a position that posits any one game will alone and by itself desensitise society to the point where murderous rampages become the norm really does miss about 99% of the point!!

Games do play their part in influencing attitudes and whils I have no concerns that TitG is about to mangle my manhood after playing this game (for a start I don't think he has forceps so I should be safe) - I have been in rooms with other people who most definitely do give cause for concern.

Does a game alone create tomorrow's racist/muderer/sociopath? Nope - but it can reinforce a person's values if it forms a significant enough part of their social education during the final part of their most formative years.
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Postby thebostonlocksmith on Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:57 am

That's a very well put point Doc.

I remember watching two people playing street fighter in the arcades in clacton and they then began to have there very own street fight on the prommenade...

They were about ten years old though... That's not trying to cheapen what you've said as i agree with it... i think that it can effect people on many levels... but most of the game playing world see what they're doing as playing a game... obviously age limits should be adhered to and i think there does need to be more information passed on to parents that are asked to buy these games for their children... as they are the most likely at risk of the 'monkey see, monkey do' mentality...
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Postby MonkeyM666 on Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:59 am

Well said Doc. I think that it's more about bringing out a predisposition in a person. If your genetics have a ‘crazy’ gene or whatever then it’s more likely to come out after heavy usage of overly violent games/movie etc. It doesn’t mean that the games/movie etc are the cause but they may be a trigger. Why burn puppies, and drown kittens when you can rape a dead mans face virtually…

That’s what’s letting our side down. The people who go on a high speed chase with GTA in the passenger seat and the like… it’s a little like the army. There are tests that are done to weed out the people who can’t handle it, the percentage of triggered crazies must be very low but they’re still there. They git rid of them before they’re exposed to something that’ll make them go ga-ga.

That’s where the ratings systems come in and personal/parental responsibility comes into it. To avoid the trigger you should have some self control/enforced parental control. If you have a hit who likes to burn things you don’t buy them a Zippo for Christmas.

I’m sure that there’s a point in there somewhere, I’ll have to reread and check :?
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Postby papalazeru on Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:01 am

Well...Sam Fox's strip poker on the spectrum have me a love of tits....especially blocky ones.
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Postby thebostonlocksmith on Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:02 am

blokey??
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Postby Doc Holliday on Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:04 am

thebostonlocksmith wrote:That's a very well put point Doc.

I remember watching two people playing street fighter in the arcades in clacton and they then began to have there very own street fight on the prommenade...

They were about ten years old though... That's not trying to cheapen what you've said as i agree with it... i think that it can effect people on many levels... but most of the game playing world see what they're doing as playing a game... obviously age limits should be adhered to and i think there does need to be more information passed on to parents that are asked to buy these games for their children... as they are the most likely at risk of the 'monkey see, monkey do' mentality...


Its all varying opinions of course...my own sneaky feeling is that the "most of the game playing world" statistic whilst still representing the majority is actually depressingly lower than a lot of people realise :cry:

What - this cup you say? Half-empty at best, since you ask! :P
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Postby papalazeru on Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:08 am

The argunment doesn't make total sense.

If computer games causes people to take up random acts of violence, how come computer games players get called lazy and esoteeric considering there are tons of sports games out there - I mean, you don't see Colin Jackson turning round saying he was inspired to be an olympic champion by 'Daley Thompsons Decathlon' or 'Hypersports', yet when its a 'violent' game suddenly the bandwagon is jumped upon.
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Postby thebostonlocksmith on Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:09 am

I know that it's rather smaller then the gaming community would have been at the time of the playstation and n64 etc... I just don't like people being vilified for playing a bloody computer game, yes i'm sure that if the game didn't overstep the mark then they wouldn't have taken exception to it...

My glass is also half empty, although even if it was full and contained water it would depress me that i could still see the bottom...
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Postby Doc Holliday on Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:21 am

papalazeru wrote:The argunment doesn't make total sense.

If computer games causes people to take up random acts of violence, how come computer games players get called lazy and esoteeric considering there are tons of sports games out there - I mean, you don't see Colin Jackson turning round saying he was inspired to be an olympic champion by 'Daley Thompsons Decathlon' or 'Hypersports', yet when its a 'violent' game suddenly the bandwagon is jumped upon.


I see this as being because of 2 things:

a) Its not about all games-players, and

b) Not just computer games contribute towards anti-social behaviour.

Shit. I'm turning into "Victorian Dad". You did this to me, Papa - YOU!
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Postby ThisIsTheGirl on Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:29 am

Doc Holliday wrote:Does a game alone create tomorrow's racist/muderer/sociopath? Nope - but it can reinforce a person's values if it forms a significant enough part of their social education during the final part of their most formative years.


I agree with this 100% - but I think we're extrapolating different things from it.

In the BBFC's statement, they quite clearly take a similar line to you - at least, that's how I took their reference to the game presenting an "unjustifiable" risk of harm to both adults and minors. My problem with this is these repeated references to things like "formative years" - there must be loads of films which you wouldn't want a 10-year old to watch, and most parents don't have too much difficulty in policing their kids' viewing habits. But the BBFC statement about Manhunt 2 appears to contradict this, and basically say "we can't trust people not to let their kids play this game". My argument to that would be "why bother with ratings at all, if they don't achieve anything?".

Because of course, the truth is, ratings DO achieve something - certainly in the case of movies: they prevent immediate access to those too young to watch them. I'm not saying that kids don't eventually get their hands on these movies, but it is made difficult for them, which is all one can hope to achieve - the rest is up to those in charge of the kids.

I have huge difficulty in relating any random act of violence I see or read about in the paper to a movie or videogame. There were something like 7 teen murders in the UK last weekend, and I'd be willing to bet hard cash that the kids responsible were more influenced by hip-hop lyrics than videogames. And yet, we haven't heard calls to step up enforcement of the "Parental Advisory" warning labels. Again, for me so much of this comes back to parenting - banning a videogame/movie/album on the grounds of its content sounds like a classic case of shutting the stable door after the horse has well and truly bolted, which leaves me with the feeling that it will ultimately achieve nothing. It's legislating against what people MIGHT do, instead of trying to create a situation which encourages people to simply behave better.

Another big problem is that, while I might respect all of your reasons for feeling the way you do, I think there's a fair amount of evidence to suggest that this line of thinking can lead to wild generalisations in the mainstream press. That kid who shot up his college in Virginia a couple of months back - he was obsessed with Oldboy, right? There were calls for Oldboy to be banned in the wake of that tragedy. For me, the thought process which would lead someone to say the Manhunt 2 ban was a good idea, is just a precursor to the type of thinking which sees people blaming Oldboy for Virginia, or blaming Rambo for Hungerford, as also happened at the time, I believe.

In closing, I will say "guns don't kill people, rappers do. I seen it in a documentary on BBC2"

Doc wrote:Shit. I'm turning into "Victorian Dad". You did this to me, Papa - YOU!


Excellent - maybe I'll finally have someone to accompany me when I go reaping bloody justice on the strumpets of the night....
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Postby Doc Holliday on Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:35 am

Thanks TitG - I really do find this an extremely interesting thing to chew over. I'm back on the clock now :( so I can't do a full-on reply just now...but I will come back to this in the next 24 hours. You - as ever - make a compelling case.



21.30 at Kings Cross then? :wink:
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Postby papalazeru on Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:39 am

If that's the case...put ratings on books.

Whose to say someone reads Mein Campf and then goes round killing everyone right? If they can do it with so much media why not censor or rate books?
Last edited by papalazeru on Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby thebostonlocksmith on Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:40 am

The main reason i like coming here is because for the most part you can all talk about the same subject and make varying points (and for the most part) people can see where your coming from, and although they may not agree with you they respect your point...

although i take exception to TITgirl's petulant comments about.... nah i'm kidding, these are all good points too... there is so much more inventive ideas on here then i hear all day at work... albeit that i actually am at work....
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Postby Doc Holliday on Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:40 am

...and London postcodes
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Postby papalazeru on Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:44 am

c'mon....If we are all going to 'Cry Wolf' about media and censorship...why don't books have a rating?
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Postby Doc Holliday on Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:45 am

thebostonlocksmith wrote:The main reason i like coming here is because for the most part you can all talk about the same subject and make varying points (and for the most part) people can see where your coming from, and although they may not agree with you they respect your point...

although i take exception to TITgirl's petulant comments about.... nah i'm kidding, these are all good points too... there is so much more inventive ideas on here then i hear all day at work... albeit that i actually am at work....


Its all part of what makes this place great!

I should also thank you, and Tony too, for your comments. Though I should warn you all, "I have two guns...."

...oh wait, there's 3 of you. :shock:
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