Manhunt 2: I SPIT ON YOUR GAME!

[papalazeru]

By the way...I've totally played those 2 games as well.



Completed them both with bonus footage.

[ThisIsTheGirl]

I don't get all the people saying they're gonna download it though - how would that work? The game was only ever due to be released on the PS2, PSP and Wii - no PC version, so I don't see how it will ever be downloadable - what am I missing here?

[papalazeru]

Heh! Just watch.

You can download PS2 games you know.

Guaratee'd a PC version is there.

[Fawst]

Hell, somehow people got the never released SNES version of Starfox 2 off the internet...

[Seppuku]

I guess maybe im saying, there should be no censorship on this stuff. Just release with that tag instead of complaining about one thing and releasing another, less provocative, violent game.

Remember when we argued the whole rape on screen and what the difference is between that and someone getting killed in Hostel? It's all pretty bad stuff. And it should be for adults only. But, that's why the AO rating was created. So adults could experience something a kid never should. That's why we have the NC-17 rating of uselessness.

You know, I came down on the opposite side of the fence in that I Spit on Your Grave thread...but that doesn't help my argument, so let's pretend that didn't happen.

I know you're together enough to handle Manhunt II, and I know I am (not sure about papalazeru though......), but I don't think everyone immediately hits enlightenment on their eighteenth birthday, and I'd imagine the BBFC agrees with me. Hell, I was about twenty times more mature at the age of 12 than I was at 18. I don't buy that whole "games turn you into Ted Bundy" argument, but still, at the age of 18 you're only a few years older than you were when you were tucked into bed at 7pm, where you dreamt of how hot the Love-a-Lot Bear was in the Care Bears (....or maybe that was just papalazeru). Maybe you don't need to have your soul prised out of your ass by Rockstar just yet. Me, I find that sensation kinda tingly...like sitting next to a bubblejet in a jacuzzi. Still, I think an outright ban's pretty ALF.

So, in conclusion, I say yay to graphic onscreen rape, but nay to a pixellated picture with a lot of red in it.



Oh, btw, you should totally get a mod to change the title of this thread to Manhunt II: I Spit on Your Game!

[MonkeyM666]

Oh, btw, you should totally get a mod to change the title of this thread to Manhunt II: I Spit on Your Game!

Seconded!

[Fawst]

It comes down to the same simple solution that has always been there: if you don't want it, don't get it. Don't want to read about nightmarish creatures haunting a town in Maine? Don't buy the book. Don't want to see idiot Americans lookin for some strange getting murdered in Europe? Don't see the movie. Don't want to push a button on a controller grind an alien to bits with your chainsaw bayonett? Don't buy the fucking game.

Censorship is a bitch, that's about the best I've got. Why have an AO rating if it's never going to get released? Just give it a B. Banned.

[papalazeru]

I know you're together enough to handle Manhunt II, and I know I am (not sure about papalazeru though......), but I don't think everyone immediately hits enlightenment on their eighteenth birthday, and I'd imagine the BBFC agrees with me. Hell, I was about twenty times more mature at the age of 12 than I was at 18. I don't buy that whole "games turn you into Ted Bundy" argument, but still, at the age of 18 you're only a few years older than you were when you were tucked into bed at 7pm, where you dreamt of how hot the Love-a-Lot Bear was in the Care Bears (....or maybe that was just papalazeru).

Look behind you Seppu......

The problem still comes down to the fact that Whiney parents complain that it's bad for their children. What we need is parents taking active involvement in their childrens lives.....THAT is the only cencorship needed, then the parents can supervise and understand their own childs upbringing and decide whether it's right for them.

Then of course.....that would solve almost every problem under the sun....apart from Cancer.

[godzillasushi]

Then of course.....that would solve almost every problem under the sun....apart from Cancer.

But, we have Chuck Norris's tears for that...












Oh right, he's never cried.

[papalazeru]

But, we have Chuck Norris's tears for that...

Oh right, he's never cried.

He cried like a pussy when I had him arrested for Rape.

He tried to blame it on Manhunt too....fool!

Right....that's it. It's all gone quiet now. I've killed the thread.

Time to go play Wii Masturbation....or go drink in the BBC bar. Whatever hits me first.

[Fried Gold]

As the first Manhunt was directly linked to a murder, I suspect that:

a. Rockstar won't win their court appeal.
b. Rockstar will have to make a lot of court enforced cuts made before any release.
c. Rockstar won't stop making crap games that sell loads because of interactive gore.

[King Of Nowhere]

rockstar still say it's out in july although its also banned in Italy now.

on the plus side, it will not be legal to sell in the UK, however it will be legal to own.

[ThisIsTheGirl]

That's good to hear, KON - but I still haven't been able to find out about this Ao thing - a couple of people have said that once a game gets an Ao cert in the States, Nintendo and Sony have a policy of just not allowing the game on their console at all. Still, I'm hoping that Spain and Holland won't let me down!

As the first Manhunt was directly linked to a murder, I suspect that:

a. Rockstar won't win their court appeal.
b. Rockstar will have to make a lot of court enforced cuts made before any release.
c. Rockstar won't stop making crap games that sell loads because of interactive gore.

I think those are all pretty sound predictions, FG - although didn't it turn out that the only connection the first game had with the murder was that the victim had been a fan of it, rather than the killer? But by the time the press had had their field day, the damage was done.

I reckon that for a lot of people, this has become less about Manhunt 2 and more about the wider issue of games censorship. I mean, it is kind of hard to take that the people who waved Hostel 2 into the country have prevented the sale of this game.

[Fawst]

The only justification I can think of for Hostel 2 getting a pass is that the events on screen unfold without input from the viewer. Manhunt 2 being a hands-on approach where you control the action... eh. Weak, thin and very lame, but hey, who knows?

[ThisIsTheGirl]

No, I'm sure you're right. I think if there hadn't been a Wii version, this might not have caused such a stir with the ratings boards - but still, I can remember playing games like Operation Wolf years ago - if holding a big machine gun with "realistic" sounds in my hands didn't make me want to shoot people when I was a kid, I don't see how holding the tiny plastic Wiimote is gonna make me want to chainsaw people's noses off - ya know?

[Fried Gold]

No, I'm sure you're right. I think if there hadn't been a Wii version, this might not have caused such a stir with the ratings boards - but still, I can remember playing games like Operation Wolf years ago - if holding a big machine gun with "realistic" sounds in my hands didn't make me want to shoot people when I was a kid, I don't see how holding the tiny plastic Wiimote is gonna make me want to chainsaw people's noses off - ya know?

You might not. But the issue is that there might be someone who can't quite resolve the difference.

I can think of loads of kids I've taught in schools who don't have the social skills neccesary to understand.

[TonyWilson]

No, I'm sure you're right. I think if there hadn't been a Wii version, this might not have caused such a stir with the ratings boards - but still, I can remember playing games like Operation Wolf years ago - if holding a big machine gun with "realistic" sounds in my hands didn't make me want to shoot people when I was a kid, I don't see how holding the tiny plastic Wiimote is gonna make me want to chainsaw people's noses off - ya know?

You might not. But the issue is that there might be someone who can't quite resolve the difference.

I can think of loads of kids I've taught in schools who don't have the social skills neccesary to understand.

I find myself agreeing with FG on this point. But I think that it's always the case that there has to be something seriously wrong with any invidulal who murders someone else and even if the method was inspired by a game or a tv show or a movie or an item on the news it's the will and the intent that make it happen, if the murderer hadn't been influenced by Manhunt he would have been influenced by something else violent.

[Fawst]

EDIT - This came out of nowhere, it's not directed at anyone in particular. Just got triggered by reading a line in a post above, and I just started writing. Take that as you will - END EDIT INFO, ON TO THE POST:

Ban guns. Ban knives. Ban cars, and baseball bats, and golf clubs, and 2x4s, and rocks, and metal rods, and rope, and fishing line, and ANYTHING THAT COULD POSSIBLY CONTRIBUTE TO A MURDER.

That's the kind of thinking that helps no one. "Hey, we can't trust anyone in society with this material. Some crazy could get their hands on it, then where would we be?"

Maybe it's because I am a massive fan of video games, and I love them dearly, and maybe I'm overreacting, but I can't stand the idea that "SOMEONE might get the wrong idea from this, so let's ban it outright."

We talked about this in the Memflix FF2 debacle thread, what the fuck ever happened to personal responsibility for one's actions? Chris Rock had it right, talking about the douches behind the Columbine Massacre: "What ever happened to crazy?" Can we for once not blame the bad things people do on outside forces, and instead put it squarely at the feet of those who do them?

Ironically, if an uncensored version of this somehow leaks to the net, there will be a hundred times more cases of software piracy caused by this game than cases of murder. By pre-emptively trying to stop violent crime, they will open the flood gates on non-violent crime.

[King Of Nowhere]

That's good to hear, KON - but I still haven't been able to find out about this Ao thing - a couple of people have said that once a game gets an Ao cert in the States, Nintendo and Sony have a policy of just not allowing the game on their console at all.

i think if a game gets an Ao in the US then the company wont allow it to be sold for the system in that country. which is kinda like the BBFC not allowing unclassified films etc. to be sold in the UK.

all the fuss about it is just making me want to play it more. i guess could i fly to Amsterdam & pick it up when it comes out, its only about an hour away.
Maybe it'll leak, I've seen unreleased betas of games floating around on the net, so it could happen.

[Evil Hobbit]

Nintendo isn't banning the game because it's to violent or anything, they ban it because they can't make a profit out of an AO-rated title that won't be sold at the major stores. In the end it's a company that only wants to make profit so they cover their ass. Only I think that after all this media fuzz, the banning in the uk, the interest in this game has grown so much that people would have searched all over the country to get a copy. The smaller retailers will be overrun by sellers and it would have grown to the biggest selling AO-game ever. Starting a chain-reaction where developers finally see, games made only for adults, and adults only, do make profit.

I'm still positive it'll be released in the NL. Same goes for Belgium. They basicly say, we rate it, the buyer decides what to do with that information. It also very funny to see the stunned look on American celebs in dutch talkshows when they are allowed to say the F-word live on tv. Our countries are very layed-back with this stuff. But we'll see what Rockstar and the big N decide to do.


edit: according to the dutch site gamer.nl Manhunt 2 is now also banned in Italy.

[godzillasushi]

Nintendo isn't banning the game because it's to violent or anything, they ban it because they can't make a profit out of an AO-rated title that won't be sold at the major stores. In the end it's a company that only wants to make profit so they cover their ass. Only I think that after all this media fuzz, the banning in the uk, the interest in this game has grown so much that people would have searched all over the country to get a copy. The smaller retailers will be overrun by sellers and it would have grown to the biggest selling AO-game ever. Starting a chain-reaction where developers finally see, games made only for adults, and adults only, do make profit.

Why don't they sell it online then? Why doesn't Rockstar sell it online? They'd make money off their websites.

[King Of Nowhere]

Why don't they sell it online then? Why doesn't Rockstar sell it online? They'd make money off their websites.

because Nintendo & Sony would sue

[godzillasushi]

Why don't they sell it online then? Why doesn't Rockstar sell it online? They'd make money off their websites.

because Nintendo & Sony would sue

Well, I mean he's saying that Nintendo wouldn't make a profit on it. They actually would selling it online.

Im pointing out that this has nothing to do with Nintendo not making money. It has to do with them picking and choosing what games should make it on a system based on a rating.

Game A has blood. BUT GAME B HAS MORE BLOOD. We can't allow that much.

[Fawst]

I completely forgot to toss Gamestop/EB into my recipients of blame early in the thread. The fact that they won't sell a title that is rated AO is absolute BULLSHIT. It's like the concept of a movie theater playing an R-rated film, but not an NC-17 one. What's the difference? One is set aside to say "absolutely no children are allowed into this," and the other says "children really should NOT be seeing this, and they aren't allowed in by themselves, but if you're a fucktard of a parent, we'll let you bring your baby in."

Remind me to open my own chain of game stores that DON'T force feed you the "Hey, you came in to buy Uber Fantasy Realm Online Volume 2? You REALLY should reserve your copy of Madden 200x! It's gonna sell out you know!" And where we WILL sell "Pimp & Ho Simulator X," rated Adults Only!

[Fried Gold]

Nintendo isn't banning the game because it's to violent or anything, they ban it because they can't make a profit out of an AO-rated title that won't be sold at the major stores. In the end it's a company that only wants to make profit so they cover their ass. Only I think that after all this media fuzz, the banning in the uk, the interest in this game has grown so much that people would have searched all over the country to get a copy. The smaller retailers will be overrun by sellers and it would have grown to the biggest selling AO-game ever. Starting a chain-reaction where developers finally see, games made only for adults, and adults only, do make profit.

Why don't they sell it online then? Why doesn't Rockstar sell it online? They'd make money off their websites.

Because the rating would still apply. The online store would be illegally selling (to the UK). And in the US, the game wouldn't be recognised as an officially licenced game for that console and Nintendo/Sony would get REALLY ANGRY.

[godzillasushi]

Remind me to open my own chain of game stores that DON'T force feed you the "Hey, you came in to buy Uber Fantasy Realm Online Volume 2? You REALLY should reserve your copy of Madden 200x! It's gonna sell out you know!" And where we WILL sell "Pimp & Ho Simulator X," rated Adults Only!

IPAMPILASH YOU CRAZY BASTARD!!!!!


I'll compete with you're gaming store. We're going to sell only AO games. Games such as Sim Stripper 2008, pr0n Bot Pro, and Shawshank Redemption 2029: The shanking.

[Fawst]

Nintendo isn't banning the game because it's to violent or anything, they ban it because they can't make a profit out of an AO-rated title that won't be sold at the major stores. In the end it's a company that only wants to make profit so they cover their ass. Only I think that after all this media fuzz, the banning in the uk, the interest in this game has grown so much that people would have searched all over the country to get a copy. The smaller retailers will be overrun by sellers and it would have grown to the biggest selling AO-game ever. Starting a chain-reaction where developers finally see, games made only for adults, and adults only, do make profit.

Why don't they sell it online then? Why doesn't Rockstar sell it online? They'd make money off their websites.

Because the rating would still apply. The online store would be illegally selling (to the UK). And in the US, the game wouldn't be recognised as an officially licenced game for that console and Nintendo/Sony would get REALLY ANGRY.

I have a question, and I am too lazy to really check this out for myself. Are games that are rated AO outright banned in the UK? Is that the issue here? I've completely overlooked that part of the story due to my utter rage and fury at MS/Sony/Nintendo for not allowing AO games on the systems.

[Fawst]

Remind me to open my own chain of game stores that DON'T force feed you the "Hey, you came in to buy Uber Fantasy Realm Online Volume 2? You REALLY should reserve your copy of Madden 200x! It's gonna sell out you know!" And where we WILL sell "Pimp & Ho Simulator X," rated Adults Only!

IPAMPILASH YOU CRAZY BASTARD!!!!!


I'll compete with you're gaming store. We're going to sell only AO games. Games such as Sim Stripper 2008, pr0n Bot Pro, and Shawshank Redemption 2029: The shanking.

Sir, I will gladly sell my company to your company in the end and then just buy my games from you instead of my distributors

[godzillasushi]

Nintendo/Sony would get REALLY ANGRY.

Oh Noes!

Well, the UK BAN is really outrageous. Things like this shouldn't be banned anyway. That said, who cares? They would still make profit. Probably will make a lot more now at least.

The fact is, they won't do it. But if they really wanted to, $ony and Nintendo could do it.

EDIT: Remember, I am talking from the US standpoint. Overseas it's clearly much different. Here, I suppose it could easily be sold online just like old NES games that weren't licensed but still sold in stores.

[Fried Gold]

Nintendo isn't banning the game because it's to violent or anything, they ban it because they can't make a profit out of an AO-rated title that won't be sold at the major stores. In the end it's a company that only wants to make profit so they cover their ass. Only I think that after all this media fuzz, the banning in the uk, the interest in this game has grown so much that people would have searched all over the country to get a copy. The smaller retailers will be overrun by sellers and it would have grown to the biggest selling AO-game ever. Starting a chain-reaction where developers finally see, games made only for adults, and adults only, do make profit.

Why don't they sell it online then? Why doesn't Rockstar sell it online? They'd make money off their websites.

Because the rating would still apply. The online store would be illegally selling (to the UK). And in the US, the game wouldn't be recognised as an officially licenced game for that console and Nintendo/Sony would get REALLY ANGRY.

I have a question, and I am too lazy to really check this out for myself. Are games that are rated AO outright banned in the UK? Is that the issue here? I've completely overlooked that part of the story due to my utter rage and fury at MS/Sony/Nintendo for not allowing AO games on the systems.

Our video games are rated in the same way, and by the same authority, as our films and videos.

So far Manhunt 2 has been refused classification by the BBFC. Which means no retailer can legally sell it. (for all intents and purposes it is banned)

I think the closest the BBFC has to the US "Adults Only" rating, is "R18" which is usually the domain of hardcore porn (and even then can only be sold in licenced premises).

[Evil Hobbit]

We got 18 for porn. The rest of the films are :

all ages
6+
9+ (introduced specially for potter 3)
12+
16+

We don't have an NC17.

A nice example of weird rating differences between the US and the Netherlands is Love Actually, a sweet romantic comedy; Rated R in the US. Rated All Ages in the Netherlands. I still don't get how a film like this can get an R rating? PG13 would have been reasonable. But R???

[Chairman Kaga]

Was there male wang in Love Actually? The MPAA hates wang.

[Fawst]

The ESRB is an organization that rates computer and video games in terms of age-appropriateness and game content. We do not create, publish, market or sell entertainment software.

No, they just ban software with AO ratings! Douches.

So here's the newest on Manhunt 2. Sucks to be anyone that wanted to play it in July.

Take-Two shelves Manhunt 2
Plans to release game "temporarily suspended" while publisher continues exploring options.
By Brendan Sinclair, GameSpot
Posted Jun 21, 2007 3:16 pm PT

In the wake of international bans and an Adults Only rating in the US, Manhunt 2 won't make its July 10 release date, Take-Two Interactive has confirmed. The game had been expected to ship that day for the PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, and Nintendo Wii.

"Take-Two Interactive Software has temporarily suspended plans to distribute Manhunt 2 for the Wii or PlayStation platforms while it reviews its options with regard to the recent decisions made by the British Board of Film Classification and Entertainment Software Rating Board," a representative told GameSpot. "We continue to stand behind this extraordinary game. We believe in freedom of creative expression, as well as responsible marketing, both of which are essential to our business of making great entertainment."

While the ESRB's initial rating of an AO for Adults Only doesn't explicitly prohibit the game from being sold, most major US retailers refuse to carry AO games, and console manufacturers prohibit their third-party publishers from releasing AO titles on their systems.

Linkage

EDIT: This is my 666th post. Fitting.

[ThisIsTheGirl]

No, I'm sure you're right. I think if there hadn't been a Wii version, this might not have caused such a stir with the ratings boards - but still, I can remember playing games like Operation Wolf years ago - if holding a big machine gun with "realistic" sounds in my hands didn't make me want to shoot people when I was a kid, I don't see how holding the tiny plastic Wiimote is gonna make me want to chainsaw people's noses off - ya know?

You might not. But the issue is that there might be someone who can't quite resolve the difference.

Sorry - only just caught up on this. Personally, I don't think that's the issue at all. I mean, if things were rated on the likelihood that there MIGHT be somebody out there who reacts inappropriately, there wouldn't be any movies rated with anything other than a U certificate. If decisions to ban games and movies were taken on that basis, there is no way in hell a movie like Hostel 2 could justifiably have been given a greenlight. And you mention children - again, not sure how relevant that is to a debate about an 18-rated game.

What really stands out in all of this, is that the BBFC clearly do not trust the effectiveness of their own ratings system. As Papa correctly points out, if a child got his or hands on an 18-rated game, the people to blame would be the parents or the retailers. but alas, we live in an age when parents simply cannot be trusted to take responsibility for their kids' upbringing. And as I say, any kid can walk into their high street arcade and play games which simulate the firing of weapons, with life sized fake guns - Nintendo allowed a chainsaw controller to be made to play resident Evil 4 on the GC - I didn't hear any of these arguments coming out when that happened.

It's just another example of the press taking a half-baked idea and running with it. We've already seen two examples in this very thread of how this can lead to even fairly informed people getting the wrong end of the stick - such as when Monkey thought this all had something to do with the church in Resistance: Fall of Man, or when you said that the stabbing of Stefan Pakeerah was "connected" with the first Manhunt game - when in fact the only connection was that the victim had played the game, i.e. there was no connection at all. It's called the Daily Mail Effect

[magicmonkey]

I found this link over at the beeb, but unfortunately I can't read it, great firewall and all... So if someone could be kind enough to do the old copy and paste;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6225286.stm

[The Vicar]

I Spit on Your Game?

Somewhere, perhaps in the men's room in hell, Winslow weeps.....

[ThisIsTheGirl]

I think of it as more of a tribute to Winslow's memory, Vic!


Magic M, here you go:

Banned video game is 'fine art'
Manhunt 2 is described by its makers as an 'entertainment experience'

The US publishers of a video game banned in the UK and Ireland have described it as a "fine piece of art". Take Two chairman Strauss Zelnick said Manhunt 2 had his full support and that consumers should decide for themselves.

"The Rockstar team has come up with a game that fits squarely within the horror genre and was intended to do so," Mr Zelnick said in a statement.

The sale of the game is unlikely to go ahead in the US and has not been granted certification in the UK.

"It brings a unique, formerly unheard of cinematic quality to interactive entertainment, and is also a fine piece of art," Mr Zelnick said.

The game has been designed Adult Only in the US but both Nintendo and Sony have confirmed that the title will not be able to be released on their platforms as originally intended. In a statement, developers Rockstar said they were disappointed by the British Board of Film Classification's (BBFC) decision to refuse classification of Manhunt 2.

It said: "While we respect the authority of the classification board and will abide by the rules, we emphatically disagree with this particular decision. The adult consumers who would play this game fully understand that it is fictional interactive entertainment and nothing more "

Rockstar are also the developers of other controversial titles including Grand Theft Auto and Canis Canem Edit.

In rejecting the game, David Cooke, director of the BBFC, said: "Manhunt 2 is distinguishable from recent high-end video games by its unremitting bleakness and callousness of tone.

"There is sustained and cumulative casual sadism in the way in which these killings are committed, and encouraged, in the game."

Rockstar's statement continued: "We believe all products should be rated to allow the public to make informed choices about the media and art they wish to consume. The stories in modern videogames are as diverse as the stories in books, film and television. The adult consumers who would play this game fully understand that it is fictional interactive entertainment and nothing more."

Manhunt 2 was developed for the Nintendo Wii and PlayStation 2 consoles

"Manhunt 2 is an entertainment experience for fans of psychological thrillers and horror. The subject matter of this game is in line with other mainstream entertainment choices for adult consumers."

In other news, it's still available for pre-order on PLAY.com, but they have changed the release date to August 31st. The plot thickens.

[Doc Holliday]

I don't like to think of myself as a prude, or pro-censorship - but because of the attention this thread has generated I went off and looked up a few things about the game...and I can empathise with why its getting the flak it is.

Its the motion detection angle that sets it apart for me. Speaking as a man who has taken himself a hooker in VICE CITY and then fed her to the sharks afterwards, I find the thought of someone standing in their front room, grinning with delight as they mimic sawing a person's head off, whilst it gets graphically depited on-screen absolutely repellant.

Strage isn't it? That as long as its a graphic on the screen, that I should feel that's ok, but with the motion stuff I should find it base and just simply wrong. I guess the motion stuff for me just brings it one step further away from "a silly game" and one step closer to "reality".

Hard to know where the line gets drawn here - in years to come, do we have actors portraying their deaths as realistically as possible and have the full FMV on screen instead of graphics? Do consoles get sold with additional "splatter packs", that squirt geysers of arterial blood over us as we hack away?

[magicmonkey]

Cheers Tgirl! Although some of those Zelnick quotes made me pamp rather than prove informative.

[ThisIsTheGirl]

Ha - so true!

"A fine piece of art" - stretching it a bit there, isn't he?

Do consoles get sold with additional "splatter packs", that squirt geysers of arterial blood over us as we hack away?

That would be AWESOME!!!!

In seriousness though, what do you say to my earlier comments about 20-year old games like Operation Wolf already setting the precedent for putting weapon-like controllers into the hands of children? It seems to me that mimicking a sawing action with a tiny Wiimote is one thing, but the vast array of light gun-based games never seem to attract this level of flak. I just find it all very strange. Plus, as I've said - it's not as if there aren't already several Wii games where you have to make physical motions to mimic the act of, say, bayonetting a Nazi soldier in the chest, or strangling one of your enemies in The Godfather? And who's to say that playing Wii baseball won't predispose you towards beating people up with a real baseball bat?

Obviously, I lean towards thinking that the ban is OTT, but I'm still making my mind up so I'm interested to hear all sides to the argument, as long as people concentrate on demonstrable points and not blind speculation. Still haven't been able to verify the neck-sex thing though....

[kid on an escalator]

The game is only banned in UK and Ireland. Well it's pretty much banned in US as well since Nintendo and Sony don't want to license an AO rated game. So Rockstar will have to censor the game to get it down to a M rating.

The countries in Europe that uses the PEGI rating system should be in the clear since the game will get a 18+ rating and that's that. At least Sweden won't ban the game so I'll be able to play this mediocre murder simulator/boring stealth game. So you should be able to get an English version of this game from several countries.

And I read some stupid bs in this thread about how Nintendo censored stuff back in the 80s. That's 20 years ago. The Nintendo back then is not the same Nintendo we have now. BMX XXX and killer7 were censored on PS2 but not on Gamecube. That should tell you something about how different Nintendo are today.

Something else that just pisses me off is how everyone says that children will learn how to kill or become some kind of psychos after playing games like these. Doesn't parents want to have any responsibility over their kids or what the fuck is wrong with everyone? Don't let your damn kids play these kind of games. YOU are their parents, not the government, ESRB or anyone else.

And then we have the morons, like Jack Thompson, who for some reason are credible when it comes to games. They don't play games and have no knowledge of games whatsoever. Who gave these people a voice to speak about something they know jack shit about? And we all know that video games is the root of all evil. Before video games there were no murderers and psychos. Murderers started appearing around the same time Pong was released. People walking around smacking people to death with big paddles.

EDIT: The game is, as expected, on hold. They obviously want it down to a M rating so that they can sell the game at all.

Link

[Doc Holliday]

Ha - so true!

"A fine piece of art" - stretching it a bit there, isn't he?

Do consoles get sold with additional "splatter packs", that squirt geysers of arterial blood over us as we hack away?

That would be AWESOME!!!!

In seriousness though, what do you say to my earlier comments about 20-year old games like Operation Wolf already setting the precedent for putting weapon-like controllers into the hands of children? It seems to me that mimicking a sawing action with a tiny Wiimote is one thing, but the vast array of light gun-based games never seem to attract this level of flak. I just find it all very strange. Plus, as I've said - it's not as if there aren't already several Wii games where you have to make physical motions to mimic the act of, say, bayonetting a Nazi soldier in the chest, or strangling one of your enemies in The Godfather? And who's to say that playing Wii baseball won't predispose you towards beating people up with a real baseball bat?

Obviously, I lean towards thinking that the ban is OTT, but I'm still making my mind up so I'm interested to hear all sides to the argument, as long as people concentrate on demonstrable points and not blind speculation. Still haven't been able to verify the neck-sex thing though....

I'm genuinely quite confused by it all to be perfectly honest!! I thought I was a pretty despicable guy with exceptionally low standards - now all of a sudden I find myself saddled with some kind of "Moral Tic" or something

See, on the one hand I'd love nothing more than to decapitate Count Dooku with a lightsabre, complete with cool motion-detection move, right there in my front room - yet Manhunt2 does make me blanche.

Perhaps its the nature of the scenario the game puts the player in. Although oh-so-typically American, with games like OPERATION WOLF, you can't help but feel you are the lone representation of democracy, blasting away the last vestiges of communism as represented by the fishing communities of Vietnam et al. You feel justified, you feel "in the right". With MANHUNT, isn't it more the case you are a psychopathic killer that has to put his "talents" to best use as a means to amuse a bloodthirsty TV audience?

I find this fascinating - censorship is deplorable - but presumably there is a line in the sand to be drawn between ever-increasingly realistic depictions of killing someone and actually doing it. Where does this argument land in the case of, say, "Snuff" movies where the victim isn't actually killed? Most people I know still find those sick, even if staged - but yet the same buddies are queueing up for their copy of Manhunt2.

Splatter Packs are one thing - how about "Pressure Sensitive" dummies - you know, you get to a certain section of the game, then have 30 seconds to attack the dummy, with each "strike" being represented on screen as a mortal blow.

I'm quite torn on the whole thing. If you're interested in this further, you should check out the various psychogical studies that have been carried out both in Europe and the US with "Bobo" dolls.

Basically, two groups of children are studied over a long period of time. One group are put into a room full of educational toys, learning aids, that kind of thing. The other group are put into a room full of guns and Bobo Dolls. You remember those - inflatable punching dolls - weighted at the bottom with sand etc. You inflate them, then punch them in the face and they rock to the ground, then the weighted bottom makes them rock back up again - like a weeble. So you punch and kick and punch etc.

At the end of the test, the two groups are pput in the same room as each other - and overwhelmingly it has been found time and time again that the "Bobo" group bully and dominate the other group - take their toys off them, puch them around etc.

Like virtually all psychological studies, its far from conclusive in and of itself - there are all kinds of other variables you can introduce to question its validity - but its an interesting starting point for these kinds of discussions.

I do think, however, that to say such stimuli have no effect whatsoever on personality, right across the board of humanity, is extremely debatable to say the least. A lot of such defenses rely heavily on the "Well, I wouldn't...." approach, which offers little reassurance in the case of the next guy...especially if "the next guy" is a crack smoker from the Medway Towns

[godzillasushi]

Well said Andy "wheelchair accessable" Moogle. You are right.

And as a matter of fact, Killer 7 and BMX XXX just made my point better from a previous post. Nintendo publishes a few adult games, they just happen to be the worst of the bunch. How was this any different? (Yes stores don't sell AO games but Nintendo can online)

Anyway, the motion controller is a little far.


Anyone think that it would not have been banned if the ESRB got their hands on it first? I think that if anything the ESRB might have let this one sneak past if the story from the UK didn't break first. These ratings things always seem to be based on whoever gets to it first.

"Oh, well they passed it, so I guess it must be alright."





Sweden will be flooded with violence when this game comes out. You better be careful Andy. Sweden will become the LA of the world. Better practice up on your GTA-style kill skills.

[Fawst]

And I read some stupid bs in this thread about how Nintendo censored stuff back in the 80s. That's 20 years ago. The Nintendo back then is not the same Nintendo we have now. BMX XXX and killer7 were censored on PS2 but not on Gamecube. That should tell you something about how different Nintendo are today.

Er, stupid BS? My point was that Nintendo essentially began the censorship of video games. IN-HOUSE. They had an internal team that would play the games being released, and if something didn't fit their bill of what was "appropriate," it was sent back to be altered before they would release it. Precedent set. They weren't the only ones, either. Sega did the same shit. I forget the name of the game, but there was a bad fantasy action game where statues of winged fairies had visible (if you squinted, and looked really hard, and could get past the 16-bit pixelation) nipples. The game was shelved until they were removed. Meanwhile another action game comes out where you shoot people and their heads explode. Hit them in the leg? No problem! You still get an exploding head! Fucking hypocritical.

EDIT: The game is, as expected, on hold. They obviously want it down to a M rating so that they can sell the game at all.

Link

I posted this story last night. Er, well from Gamespot, but still

[godzillasushi]

Fawst, just ignore him. He's in Sweden and they don't have day or night so he's confused. They don't have gravity either. Or women. They actually reproduce....er.....well nm. I love him anyway.


I think what he was getting at was what MonkeyM said about Nintendo being so strict. They were at one point pioneers in censorship becuase they had to be. They were the only ones out there and needed to be responsible. Since the introductions of ratings systems they don't have to worry so much. Instead, they put out a lot of things that fly in the face of someone claming Nintendo is 'clean'.

[ThisIsTheGirl]

Thanks for the excellent response Doc - plenty of food for thought there.

It's funny - even though I had ordered this game, I want to play it soooooo much more now than I did before the ban!

So, these kids and the Bobo dolls - did the study find that they were more likely than the other group to become City traders or work in Recruitment?

My point, of course, being that some people get paid a healthy sum of money for their ability to bully other people!

[Chairman Kaga]

And I read some stupid bs in this thread about how Nintendo censored stuff back in the 80s. That's 20 years ago. The Nintendo back then is not the same Nintendo we have now. BMX XXX and killer7 were censored on PS2 but not on Gamecube. That should tell you something about how different Nintendo are today.

Er, stupid BS? My point was that Nintendo essentially began the censorship of video games. IN-HOUSE. They had an internal team that would play the games being released, and if something didn't fit their bill of what was "appropriate," it was sent back to be altered before they would release it. Precedent set. They weren't the only ones, either. Sega did the same shit. I forget the name of the game, but there was a bad fantasy action game where statues of winged fairies had visible (if you squinted, and looked really hard, and could get past the 16-bit pixelation) nipples. The game was shelved until they were removed. Meanwhile another action game comes out where you shoot people and their heads explode. Hit them in the leg? No problem! You still get an exploding head! Fucking hypocritical.

And if they didn't have that oversite ie the "Nintendo seal of approval" video games would not have rebounded as quickly as they did following the crash of 83-84. They put that policy in place to address the lack of oversite on Atari's systems that lead to a glut of poor quality 3rd party software that burst the marketplace originally.

[Doc Holliday]

Well said Andy "wheelchair accessable" Moogle. You are right.

And as a matter of fact, Killer 7 and BMX XXX just made my point better from a previous post. Nintendo publishes a few adult games, they just happen to be the worst of the bunch. How was this any different? (Yes stores don't sell AO games but Nintendo can online)

Anyway, the motion controller is a little far.


Anyone think that it would not have been banned if the ESRB got their hands on it first? I think that if anything the ESRB might have let this one sneak past if the story from the UK didn't break first. These ratings things always seem to be based on whoever gets to it first.

"Oh, well they passed it, so I guess it must be alright."

Sweden will be flooded with violence when this game comes out. You better be careful Andy. Sweden will become the LA of the world. Better practice up on your GTA-style kill skills.

Do I hypothesise that this game will lead to killing sprees? No, I do not. It would seem the finer points of my argument are lost on you.

Happy shooting, kid.

[godzillasushi]

Well said Andy "wheelchair accessable" Moogle. You are right.

And as a matter of fact, Killer 7 and BMX XXX just made my point better from a previous post. Nintendo publishes a few adult games, they just happen to be the worst of the bunch. How was this any different? (Yes stores don't sell AO games but Nintendo can online)

Anyway, the motion controller is a little far.


Anyone think that it would not have been banned if the ESRB got their hands on it first? I think that if anything the ESRB might have let this one sneak past if the story from the UK didn't break first. These ratings things always seem to be based on whoever gets to it first.

"Oh, well they passed it, so I guess it must be alright."

Sweden will be flooded with violence when this game comes out. You better be careful Andy. Sweden will become the LA of the world. Better practice up on your GTA-style kill skills.

Do I hypothesise that this game will lead to killing sprees? No, I do not. It would seem the finer points of my argument are lost on you.

Happy shooting, kid.

Ah I wasn't really reffering to anyone elses arguments or anything, just running my fingers. Just a joke.

Kid on an Escalator happens to live in soon to be war-torn Sweden.

[kid on an escalator]

And I read some stupid bs in this thread about how Nintendo censored stuff back in the 80s. That's 20 years ago. The Nintendo back then is not the same Nintendo we have now. BMX XXX and killer7 were censored on PS2 but not on Gamecube. That should tell you something about how different Nintendo are today.

Er, stupid BS? My point was that Nintendo essentially began the censorship of video games. IN-HOUSE. They had an internal team that would play the games being released, and if something didn't fit their bill of what was "appropriate," it was sent back to be altered before they would release it. Precedent set. They weren't the only ones, either. Sega did the same shit. I forget the name of the game, but there was a bad fantasy action game where statues of winged fairies had visible (if you squinted, and looked really hard, and could get past the 16-bit pixelation) nipples. The game was shelved until they were removed. Meanwhile another action game comes out where you shoot people and their heads explode. Hit them in the leg? No problem! You still get an exploding head! Fucking hypocritical.

Yeah I didn't really read your post so I thought you were talking about how Nintendo still censor things. Some people really think they still do that ever since Mortal Kombat on SNES had sweat instead of blood. Never mind that the sequels had blood...

I still think they should release the game uncensored in Europe as planned. But I guess this AO shit made it so that the game won't be released anywhere anytime soon.

Sweden will be flooded with violence when this game comes out. You better be careful Andy. Sweden will become the LA of the world. Better practice up on your GTA-style kill skills.

Yeah I am currently swinging my wiimote around like a knife so that I can be prepared for the wave of violence hitting us soon. The game will probably sell around 5k copies here so the amount of murderers roaming the streets will be troublesome to say the least.