Ultimates2 *POSSIBLE SPOILERS*

[TheSumOfGod]

Only 9 days remaining...

[TheSumOfGod]

Only 6 days remaining...

[buster00]

We Interrupt This Thread For A Special Bulletin From Ultimate Wolverine Vs. Hulk #2 --

Ultimate Wolverine Vs. Hulk #2 is cooler than anything any of us deserve to read this year. And the two motherfuckers aren't even locking fists, despite that tease-ass cover.

We now return you to round-the-clock coverage of TheSumOfGod's ongoing countdown to Ultimates #10.

[TheSumOfGod]

We Interrupt This Thread For A Special Bulletin From Ultimate Wolverine Vs. Hulk #2 --

Ultimate Wolverine Vs. Hulk #2 is cooler than anything any of us deserve to read this year. And the two motherfuckers aren't even locking fists, despite that tease-ass cover.

We now return you to round-the-clock coverage of TheSumOfGod's ongoing countdown to Ultimates #10.

Thank you for that special bulletin, buster00. And he IS right, Ultimate Wolverine versus Hulk #2 IS pretty f***ing cool, best line of the whole issue: "Oooh! Fishie!".

But you know what's even cooler than that? Ultimates 2 #10 has been CONFIRMED as coming out only 3 days from now, oh joy!

[Carolian]

Ultimates 2 #10 has been CONFIRMED as coming out only 3 days from now, oh joy!

What the holy shitting of a fucker?!?!?

FUCKIN' A! Ohhh man, finally!

And that reminds me, I really have to pick up Ultimate Wolverine vs. Hulk #2, my stupid local shop didn't have it in last Wednesday.

[TheSumOfGod]

What the holy shitting of a fucker?!?!?

FUCKIN' A! Ohhh man, finally!

And that reminds me, I really have to pick up Ultimate Wolverine vs. Hulk #2, my stupid local shop didn't have it in last Wednesday.

SPOILER: Hulk and Wolverine KILL each other at the end of the issue. I have no idea what the last 4 issues are gonna be about, after that.

[Carolian]

What the holy shitting of a fucker?!?!?

FUCKIN' A! Ohhh man, finally!

And that reminds me, I really have to pick up Ultimate Wolverine vs. Hulk #2, my stupid local shop didn't have it in last Wednesday.

SPOILER: Hulk and Wolverine KILL each other at the end of the issue. I have no idea what the last 4 issues are gonna be about, after that.

AHHHHHHH!! Fucking insane!!!

I should just go out now and get it. I really should. I'm not doing anything important right now, I should just go.

*whines* Except it's snowwwwingggggggg...

[TheSumOfGod]

I was kidding, btw. There's no way in hell they would kill off either Wolvie or Hulk.

[TheSumOfGod]

Only 3 days remaining...

[Carolian]

I was kidding, btw. There's no way in hell they would kill off either Wolvie or Hulk.

Man, you got me, hahahaha, I was imagining some kind of insane zombie fight for the rest of the series!

[TheSumOfGod]

I still say evil lightsaber dude is Ultimate Wonder-Man.

[JackKnight]

Finally read #10 and thought it was pretty decent. Started off a little slow but gave all of the ID's of those guys. Although we still don't have a name for The Colonel or the answer to why he has a big W on his chest. Still some pretty cool characters. Hurricane seems to be even faster than Quicksilver, so the showdown between them should be interesting.

The last few pages though. Wow. The stuff w/Hawkeye was a tad bit unbelieveable, but was still pretty darn cool.

All in all #10 was kind of a filler issue between the initial attack and the regrouping by the Ultimates. So #11 will ramp things up to the big climax in #12.

Place your bets...does the Hulk return to help out the Ultimates ala Volume 1? Although in Vol1 he did have to get some help from Fury in order to return. But based on how he was behaving in Wolvie/Hulk #2 he may have enough of his marbles to be a real asset, without Cap having to goad him into beating up the bad guys. That was a bit weak. On the same note, I have to say I'd be interested in seeing a dustup between the Hulk and Abomination.

<whew> I think I kept that relatively spoiler free.

[Theta]

Go back and read the title. Don't say I didn't warn you. Also, anybody who replies that "That stuff doesn't matter, Millar is fucking awesome" will be shot. THIS STUFF MATTERS. When you do this stuff right, you get "Watchmen." When you don't...


"The Ultimates 2" is the stupidest fucking comic book ever produced.

Yes, even more stupid than "Onslaught." More stupid than the editorial decision that let Rob Liefield write. Even more stupid than the Electric Boogaloo Superman DC did a few years back.

Mark Millar needs to be locked into Warren Ellis' basement with about twenty years' worth of the Economist, and be beaten with a leadpipe every time he reverts to shock-jock tactics. In fact, Ellis should do the beating. He's a beefy guy, he looks like he'd have a good backfist.


My main problem is that even though I am reading a graphic depiction of people with perfect bodies wielding impossible gifts...I want to believe. I want the setting to be as realistic as possible, within reason.

So Millar, writing an international political thriller when he knows absolutely nothing whatsoever about politics, international or otherwise, makes me want to beat my head into the wall. I mean, does this guy even watch the fucking news? Gee, OF COURSE the Middle East would cooperate with France! France just loves them the Muslims! They didn't have any race riots or anything recently, nope, no sir, all traquil there in the suburbs of Paris!

ARGH!

Basically, right now, this comic book reads like a neofascist isolationist fantasy; in fact, uncomfortably so, considering one of the heroes is a Norse god and the other is a blonde-haired, blue-eyed all-American boy (literally.) ALL the countries of the world are against us and want to take us out, to the degree that the Ultimates are going to be executed (yes, you read that right.) I'm sure Millar intends it as satire, since apparently he's the kind of liberal that embarasses other liberals in his personal life, but frankly, he's playing it too seriously and too close to the vest and it's too, well, stupid and jingoistic to be funny. It's the political equivalent of Terrence and Phillip.

What's even more frustrating is that there are some good ideas but the execution is clumsy and thus the concepts are wasted. The idea of a Palestinian undergoing the super-soldier program and fighting to protect his country's interests strikes me as a great idea. Used properly he'd be the perfect antagonist; the guy who, if you move the angle just a little bit, becomes the protagonist. Too bad that here he's little more than a throwaway.

Also, Millar mentions that the Fantastic Four and the X-Men are "contained." Um...you know they have their own books, right, Mark? You should, since you're writing one of them and wrote the other for the first three years. Shouldn't a story this big be spread out a wee bit, or at least have a few cameos?

GAH!

[The Garbage Man]

It's a good thing two opposing sides never team up to fight a more powerful (perceived) evil. Especially not in comic books, no sir.

It's also a good thing that all social commentary must be comedic satire.

[Adam Balm]

Although we still don't have a name for The Colonel or the answer to why he has a big W on his chest.

No kidding. So he's a middle eastern Captain America. Colonel Wahabi? For some reason that is bugging me more than anything else. At least we got a name for the 'anti-ultimates' (The Liberators)

Anyway, just read it, so I'll need some time to gather my thoughts. My initial reaction...once again, Millar made me believe. He even showed why Hawkeye (a guy with a fucking bow and arrow) belongs on a team of the world's most powerful superhumans. My head's still swimming from this thing.

And does anyone know why do so many Ultimate comics end with the phrase 'Get the hell away from my girlfriend!'?

[Theta]

It's a good thing two opposing sides never team up to fight a more powerful (perceived) evil. Especially not in comic books, no sir.

It's also a good thing that all social commentary must be comedic satire.

Social commentary must be intelligent and informed to be worth reading (see "Ultimate Extinction" with that wonderful bit about Cap talking about his belief in God.) This is neither.

[The Garbage Man]

It's neither intelligent nor informed according to your opinion. How nice for you.

Your opinion, however, is not absolute fact. This is The Ultimates, not goddamn Maus. It's meant as entertainment first and foremost, and if it happens to have an allegorical subtext then so much the better.

[Ribbons]

Whoa, chill peoples. If it makes you feel better Garbage Man, I liked Ultimates #10 a lot too. I think Theta makes some good points, but as a whole and even with those things in mind I still rather enjoyed it.

[JackKnight]

I liked Ultimates 10 a lot too but I can see the points that Theta is raising. I don't entirely agree, but I understand the frustration with using international politics as a subtext without understanding international political situations.

Still I think the reaction was a bit extreme. As was said in a pp, it's meant as entertainment, not as straight political allegory. Anyway, thanks for the thoughts Theta.

My last thought...Tony Stark kicks ass. "Five thousand failed relationships can make you a little cynical."

[Theta]

It's neither intelligent nor informed according to your opinion. How nice for you.

Your opinion, however, is not absolute fact. This is The Ultimates, not goddamn Maus. It's meant as entertainment first and foremost, and if it happens to have an allegorical subtext then so much the better.

"It's just entertainment" is not an excuse to not do your research and if you're going to work in a subtext, then you are arguably obligated to think MUCH harder about how that subtext is going to work. Warren Ellis is a perfect example of subtext done right; "Ultimate Extinction" has some fairly serious topics and subtexts but he puts his ducks in a row and uses them to advance the story.

And the simple fact of the matter is that Millar's subtext is not only ill-informed, he just doesn't have the chops to keep it in line. Seriously, I picked up the book and thought "Jesus Christ! Marvel's let a raving conspiracy-addled gun-nut into the bullpen!" It's not intelligent, it's not informed, it's not thought out. It doesn't fucking work. Maybe that doesn't bother you, but it bothers the living hell out of me.

[Adam Balm]

Oh dear Garbage Man, you've gone and upset Theta...




And it was almost his nap time...

[Colin]

Theta, the fact that you use Ellis's work (thankfully not Transmetropolitan) to support your argument throws everything out the window. I've got issues with Millar's writing too, but to compare Ellis to him is like tomato and to-mah-toe.

[Adam Balm]

I don't know, I'm with Theta on this one. If only the Ultimates could have the subtlety and social relevance of "We're the Authority! Don't piss us off!"

[Theta]

Oh dear Garbage Man, you've gone and upset Theta...




And it was almost his nap time...

Ouch. Harsh.

Although that kid looks DEEPLY evil.

[Theta]

Theta, the fact that you use Ellis's work (thankfully not Transmetropolitan) to support your argument throws everything out the window. I've got issues with Millar's writing too, but to compare Ellis to him is like tomato and to-mah-toe.

Um, no, actually, it's not. Let's use "Transmetropolitan" as an example:

1) It's not a direct analogue. The Smiler and the Beast aren't specific politicians, they don't look like contemporary politicians, and are just obviously how Ellis views politicans in general. You'll notice we don't know what ticket either of them run on; in fact, they never discuss politics in the course of the book.

2) Spider Jerusalem is a self-proclaimed Struggling Background Artist and useful because he makes very clear that what we're reading is a matter of Ellis' opinions. He also goes out of his way to make his opinions funny, which forgives a lot (it helps that I'm often in agreement with him.)

3) Ellis has obviously worked as a journalist. My father is a journalist and you'd be a little surprised as to just how well Ellis captures the push-and-pull of politics and journalism in the course of the book. Overall, Transmetropolitan is not about Spider Jerusalem: it's about the importance of journalism as a private check against governmental power.

4) Ellis reads. A lot. I love the fact that he's willing to incorporate cutting edge science or serious philosophical ideas into a superhero comic because it applies and because it adds a fun spin to the story. His run on Ultimate Fantastic Four was wonderful to read because of this.


To break down my problem with the Ultimates:

1) Europe may not like us, necessarily, but they like the Middle East far far less. It's worth remembering that France and England in particular have had problems with their Muslim populations (mostly because their Christian populations decided Paki-bashing fit in among their country's quaint and charming customs.) Frankly, us walking off with a Middle Eastern country's missile stock wouldn't really bother them; let the imams incite violence against someone ELSE.

2) The Middle East is far from a united front. If one country was unilaterally forcibly disarmed, frankly terrorist organizations would be there first thing; it's an ideal training ground and recruiting area. Which promptly turns the country into a warzone, and usually spreads fighting to other areas. Toss a few Muslim superhumans into the mix (the Colonel is, again, an idea I'm loving) and you could basically have the entire Middle East burning to the ground in a month. One of Millar's great failings was that a story about how the Ultimates unwittingly knock over the dominoes (which is what El Presidente actually did) would have gotten his point across far more effectively.

3) Apparently, the regular armed forces, the State Department, and the American people are in complete agreement with the Ultimates' actions in Millar's universe. Yeah, Thor has his raver fans but that's really about it for dissent. This wouldn't happen and frankly Millar lost out on a lot of interesting material by ignoring this. Why have "The Liberators" when a good chunk of our own military and government would probably decide this Nick Fury asshole has gone WAY too far? Few military types approve of forcible disarming unless the nation in question is a direct threat to US citizens and soil and we can develop a clear strategy so we're not fighting a very long, involved land war in a country with a population that hates us (you know, Vietnam?)

In fact, one of the things that should have been happening this entire time is Fury fighting to keep his funding after the Hulk debacle. He'd have to be beating off the vultures just to pay the bills on the Triskelion, frankly.

[buster00]

Well, that settles it.




It's gotta be Wonder Man.

[Ribbons]

1) Europe may not like us, necessarily, but they like the Middle East far far less. Frankly, us walking off with a Middle Eastern country's missile stock wouldn't really bother them.

2) The Middle East is far from a united front. If one country was unilaterally forcibly disarmed, frankly terrorist organizations would be there first thing; it's an ideal training ground and recruiting area. Which promptly turns the country into a warzone.

Yeah, but the thing about this problem is that the Liberators aren't being sponsored by the country of France (least I don't think...), it's just an independent organization? Correct. If not I guess you can throw this argument out. But anyway, it's feasible that there are people out there who dedicatedly loathe the United States, perhaps even more than they loathe the Middle East, and if wherever the Colonel lived would become a war zone, they could still pluck him out of the area and use him, which I'm pretty sure is the case here.

3) Apparently, the regular armed forces, the State Department, and the American people are in complete agreement with the Ultimates' actions in Millar's universe. Yeah, Thor has his raver fans but that's really about it for dissent. This wouldn't happen and frankly Millar lost out on a lot of interesting material by ignoring this. Why have "The Liberators" when a good chunk of our own military and government would probably decide this Nick Fury asshole has gone WAY too far? Few military types approve of forcible disarming unless the nation in question is a direct threat to US citizens and soil and we can develop a clear strategy so we're not fighting a very long, involved land war in a country with a population that hates us (you know, Vietnam?)

In fact, one of the things that should have been happening this entire time is Fury fighting to keep his funding after the Hulk debacle. He'd have to be beating off the vultures just to pay the bills on the Triskelion, frankly.

This, I agree with. I think it was something that was sorta touched on in the Ultimates Annual (is that what it's called?), but yes, Fury (and the government) would have a much harder time of implementing their foreign policy than it is suggested they would here.

[Coldfire24]

Damn you MasterWhedon, Ribbons, and you too Doc for getting me into comic books!

[Keepcoolbutcare]

i could give a flying ratmonkey fuck 'bout how any of you read into the politics of this, or any other issue of the Ultimates...

all I know was that THAT WAS A BADASS ISSUE OF WHAT IS (arguably) THE MOST BADASS SUPERHERO COMIC IN PRINT TODAY.

the Stark bit was good, if not a tad bit obvious, but HAWKEYE! FINGERNAILS!!!...jesus tit-fucking Christ, that was the best moment I've come across in a comic in, well, um...a while. A LONG while.

so blah blah Millar knows nothin' bout politics blah blah Millar is G*d blah blah YOU SUCK blah blah YO MOMMA...shuttup and appreciate the details of Hitch's art and the plotting of Millar and stand back as all hell breaks loose.

Fuck boys, take your time with the next one as well...if it's gonna be this good, I can wait.

[Colin]

To break down my problem with the Ultimates:

1) Europe may not like us, necessarily, but they like the Middle East far far less. It's worth remembering that France and England in particular have had problems with their Muslim populations (mostly because their Christian populations decided Paki-bashing fit in among their country's quaint and charming customs.) Frankly, us walking off with a Middle Eastern country's missile stock wouldn't really bother them; let the imams incite violence against someone ELSE.

2) The Middle East is far from a united front. If one country was unilaterally forcibly disarmed, frankly terrorist organizations would be there first thing; it's an ideal training ground and recruiting area. Which promptly turns the country into a warzone, and usually spreads fighting to other areas. Toss a few Muslim superhumans into the mix (the Colonel is, again, an idea I'm loving) and you could basically have the entire Middle East burning to the ground in a month. One of Millar's great failings was that a story about how the Ultimates unwittingly knock over the dominoes (which is what El Presidente actually did) would have gotten his point across far more effectively.

Loki's behind it all. He's the Trickster God, after all. Notice they never intro'd him in the first pages of #10? As much as I don't really like him, I know Millar's pretty up to date on European and Middle Eastern politics. He knows it could never work. So Loki's his deus ex machina.

3) Apparently, the regular armed forces, the State Department, and the American people are in complete agreement with the Ultimates' actions in Millar's universe. Yeah, Thor has his raver fans but that's really about it for dissent. This wouldn't happen and frankly Millar lost out on a lot of interesting material by ignoring this. Why have "The Liberators" when a good chunk of our own military and government would probably decide this Nick Fury asshole has gone WAY too far? Few military types approve of forcible disarming unless the nation in question is a direct threat to US citizens and soil and we can develop a clear strategy so we're not fighting a very long, involved land war in a country with a population that hates us (you know, Vietnam?)

In fact, one of the things that should have been happening this entire time is Fury fighting to keep his funding after the Hulk debacle. He'd have to be beating off the vultures just to pay the bills on the Triskelion, frankly.

It's one way he could have gone. He decided to go a different way. It's his book.

[Coldfire24]

Colin you get super cool points for using "deus ex machina"

I loved the book. Politics aside. I think its great. Hawkeye scares me. I think a more disgusting route would have been for him to break his own teeth inside his mouth use them as weapons. Loved the book though.

[Theta]

Loki's behind it all. He's the Trickster God, after all. Notice they never intro'd him in the first pages of #10? As much as I don't really like him, I know Millar's pretty up to date on European and Middle Eastern politics. He knows it could never work. So Loki's his deus ex machina.

It's one way he could have gone. He decided to go a different way. It's his book.

I KNOW Loki is going to be behind it, since the only other way to end the run is with America taking over the world. I think Quesada wouldn't let that one slide. But, quite honestly, having a deus ex machina AT ALL is like ending the book with a comic-book-crazy little kid waking up in the final panel of issue #12. So either way, it's gonna bug me. Sorry.

[DennisMM]

Still want to know how Hawkeye ripped out his fingernails with his fingers when he's tied at the wrists. I know he's got powerful hands, but pushing your nails off with rotary pressure is a bit much.

[buster00]

Still want to know how Hawkeye ripped out his fingernails with his fingers when he's tied at the wrists. I know he's got powerful hands, but pushing your nails off with rotary pressure is a bit much.

What if you really had nothing better to do all day than to sit around working at your fingernails, trying to break them off?

Pushing, bending, kneading, peeling, gritting your back teeth, working through the pain as if your life depended on it...because motherfucker, IT DOES...!!

"Come on, you little keratin sons-a-bitch...get the fuck off my fingers...come ON...."

Just a pleasant thought for everybody's day. You're welcome.

[Theta]

Still want to know how Hawkeye ripped out his fingernails with his fingers when he's tied at the wrists. I know he's got powerful hands, but pushing your nails off with rotary pressure is a bit much.

Loki loosened them for him.

[Adam Balm]

Still want to know how Hawkeye ripped out his fingernails with his fingers when he's tied at the wrists. I know he's got powerful hands, but pushing your nails off with rotary pressure is a bit much.

Loki loosened them for him.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

[Stinny]

I'm as big an ellis fan as the next guy but comparing him to millar and saying millar sucks is a bit unfair to both parties. I like ellis because he's so well read and has a depth of background research to back up his plotting. (Case in point, fell, which is essentially a narrative structured around whatever ellis happens to be digging at that moment).

Likewise, I enjoy Millar because he's not ellis. I like the big action, the fast plotting, the extreme characterization, but I like it because it's millar. That's what's so great about comics, you can have the same exact basic plot and tell it from a myriad of different viewpoints, each with an artistic and literary flavor specific to the creators.

And I don't think it has to always be dead on balls accurate in order to be a good story, I see your point about elevating the medium through innovative storytelling but sometimes a gun is a gun, a bad guy is a bad guy, and you need a bunch of pissed off anti-americans to tip over a statue of liberty or two.

[TheSumOfGod]

The cover of issue 12 (double-sized issue):



Your welcome.

[TheSumOfGod]

The entire Ultimate Marvel Universe is gonna fight to save America! Even Hulk is coming back! But I am willing to bet that Thor's prayers to his heavenly father Odin are gonna help them out in the end...

[TheSumOfGod]

And I still think the team leader of the Liberators is the Ultimate version of Wonder Man.

[Adam Balm]

Whatever he is, I just want them to explain what the 'W' means. That's been bugging me since day one...

[burlivesleftnut]

Man Brian Hitch needs to stop drawing Spider-Man. That is is some mind bending anatomy there.

[Keepcoolbutcare]

Man Brian Hitch needs to stop drawing Spider-Man. That is is some mind bending anatomy there.

Spidey's got a camel-toe.

ewww...

[Kilgore]

Man Brian Hitch needs to stop drawing Spider-Man. That is is some mind bending anatomy there.

Spidey's got a camel-toe.

ewww...

IPAMPILASH!

Apparently, Hitch has rendered Spidey 'as portrayed by Patrick Swayze, circa 1989'...

[buster00]

Wowie! Great pic!

I'd be a lot more impressed if I didn't think this whole storyline is going to end kind of like Kevin Smith's Dogma did, though.

[DennisMM]

What if it's not a W but a very stylized bird design?

[Theta]

Man Brian Hitch needs to stop drawing Spider-Man. That is is some mind bending anatomy there.

Clearly he thinks Spidey has a tiny sack. Or a really constricting cup. Probably the latter: stick to walls or no, you know MJ is a size queen.

[Theta]

Man Brian Hitch needs to stop drawing Spider-Man. That is is some mind bending anatomy there.

Spidey's got a camel-toe.

ewww...

IPAMPILASH!

Apparently, Hitch has rendered Spidey 'as portrayed by Patrick Swayze, circa 1989'...

Dumbledore? And with a tiny sack?

[Adam Balm]

Man Brian Hitch needs to stop drawing Spider-Man. That is is some mind bending anatomy there.

Spidey's got a camel-toe.

ewww...

IPAMPILASH!

Apparently, Hitch has rendered Spidey 'as portrayed by Patrick Swayze, circa 1989'...

Dumbledore? And with a tiny sack?

I sense someone just volunteered for a new custom rank...

[Ribbons]

Man Brian Hitch needs to stop drawing Spider-Man. That is is some mind bending anatomy there.

Spidey's got a camel-toe.

ewww...

IPAMPILASH!

Apparently, Hitch has rendered Spidey 'as portrayed by Patrick Swayze, circa 1989'...

Dumbledore? And with a tiny sack?

That doesn't bug me so much as the left leg that seems to be attached to a different kind of hip socket than we're used to seeing in humans. Combine that with the nearly nonexistent bluebittles and Spider-Man as done by Bryan Hitch looks like a sadistic 8-year-old's action figure.