The Great East/West Cartoonanimation Debate

Anime, cartoons and 3D. Animated shorts and features. And don't forget the animation genius in Bulgaria.

Postby Chairman Kaga on Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:29 pm

ZombieZoneSolutions wrote:Hey, I love old DISNEY; like the early shorts, SNOW WHITE and the like;
FANTASIA is their hands down best and its absolutely brilliant. My
stepfather's father (me grandstepfather?) was an illustrator who worked
for Disney doing both key animations and fill-ins.

Anyways, I'd put the cut off date for Disney quality around 1960, 1961.
SLEEPING BEAUTY was what, 1959? Just about everything after
that (with the possible exception of SWORD IN THE STONE) was pure
utter crap; each year getting worse and worse, until they had to go so far
as to rape KIMBA and dumb it down for the braindead, overfed, mewling
masses of hypermediated overfed lumpen middle america...

Still I recognize the brilliance of their early work, I just think the last 40
years or so has demonstrated a slow and steady decline to the point
where now I find their films unwatchable (I don't count PIXAR in this,
because they were/are their own company / production house); basically
all they make now is anything stupid and colorful enough to make the
kids shut up for 90 minutes...

In terms of the adult animation thing, clearly there is a huge market for it
given the popularity of anime and stuff like Adult Swim, they're just too
chickenshit to take chances even though they have more money than
gOD, Santa Claus, Odin, and Ming the Mercilous combined.

Oh yes, and BUGS BUNNY pwns MICKY MOUSE...

I agree on Bugs pwning Mickey, Cool about your GrandStepFather, but I disagree on that timeline (I love Ron-John stuff from Disney, The GReat Mouse Detective, Aladdin, Hercules plus Fantasia 2000 had some great bits). Alls cool though.

ZombieZoneSolutions wrote:You know me well, Flumm! :wink:

Seriously, didn't anyone else want the tiger to win? Sher Khan was his
name, right? He was so cool looking and the rest of them were so lame.

I am no fan of the Jungle Book but I loved the Tailspin 30's art deco airplane show from the early 90's that used all of the animal characters.
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Postby buster00 on Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:31 pm

OK, just to chime in the conversation:

1. My own tastes in anime run pretty small, if we're talking about TV crap like "Pokemon," "Dragonball," or the other stuff that seems to take up too much airtime on The WB and Cartoon Network. The well-crafted stuff, though, like Metropolis, Akira, or Blood: The Last Vampire totally trip my trigger.

2. If anime absolutely HAS to be dubbed into English, it'd better have a perfect synch-up, for my money. I don't wanna see a bunch of random lip-flapping with poorly delivered dialogue puked out by some stiff, badly rendered character. I can get that from Fox News.

That said, I'd rather watch the subtitled Akira any day. Most of the actors they hire to dub anime are barfing up their lines at a sub-Thundercats level.

3. Bugs beats about twenty different shades of shit out of Mickey. It's not even a contest. Now Donald Duck vs. Bugs or Goofy vs. Bugs -- that's a battle.

4. Jungle Book has gotta be my favorite Disney feature length.

5. I kinda got the feeling that Disney was trying to hook the Akira crowd with Atlantis or maybe Treasure Planet, but failed (a box-office record failure in Planet's case). Those could have had potential, but they chose to "Disnify" them instead. Whenever cute l'il sidekicks show up where they don't belong, I always picture that "focus marketing" bitch from "The Simpsons" at the board meeting, babbling some shit about how "the sidekicks have always tested well in the past."
Last edited by buster00 on Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Chairman Kaga on Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:38 pm

That may be true of Atlantis but I know people who worked on Treasure Planet and they looked to nothing other than Treasure Island for inspiration.
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Postby buster00 on Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:44 pm

Chairman Kaga wrote:That may be true of Atlantis but I know people who worked on Treasure Planet and they looked to nothing other than Treasure Island for inspiration.


Well, naturally, but I don't recall a lot in the way of "cute l'il sidekicks" in Treasure Island.
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Postby Fried Gold on Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:59 pm

On a side note: Anyone in the UK with Sky. S4C shows Dragonball or Digimon or something with Welsh dub.

It makes it 20 times better.
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Postby Chairman Kaga on Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:07 pm

buster00 wrote:
Chairman Kaga wrote:That may be true of Atlantis but I know people who worked on Treasure Planet and they looked to nothing other than Treasure Island for inspiration.


Well, naturally, but I don't recall a lot in the way of "cute l'il sidekicks" in Treasure Island.

Eh blame Star Wars fo that attitude.
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Postby silentbobafett on Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:27 am

Hey the thread is coming on well!

Okay, here we go....

You're all bang right that most, if not 99% of dubbed anime is awful. Fucking subpar Thudnercats is bang on! HOWEVER I'm offering you a world where proffesional talented, anime loving guys and gals do hardcore work to dub movies that can then be aimed MASS AUDIENCES such as Childeren and Families?

Spirited Away was one of the first of this kind. It weren't celebrities doing the voices (I don't think. If it was then they did with no big names across the poster! Which is just as good! Miyzaki si the fucking star!) but talent folk.

I hate anime when everyone speaks with a deep voice. Or some falling with a light earted voice. "WAAAHHHH"

Heh heh....

Anyway. Some people will probably moan that I want these films for a bigger audience. But why the fuck should geeks have all the fun? Won't it make more geeks if more people see the genius?

You want Disney to stop hogging the animation world. From stealing ideas? Let more people see more animation. And they sure as hell ain't gonna see subtitles (I know there are subtitled films that have been huge hits! But they are exceptions to prove the rule. Most don't)

So if a cartoon can be 99% seamlessly dubbed - then do it.

My spirited away from Disney came with the dubbed and subtitled version. Now how fucking goodis that? I'm sorry but that is the best you could ask for!

Over and out!
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Postby silentbobafett on Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:41 am

I don't think its disney's fault.

Disney makes animated movies for kids. Thats what they do.

Anohter studio or whatever should make animated movies for mature audiences.

The hate for Disney cos they make kids movies is simply because you're now older, can see the shit of the corporate side of them and can see that Little Mermaid isn't as good as the Godfather. Or if you want an animation compariason, it ain't as good as Akira.

Now rewind to when you were 7. Disney seemed pretty shit hot. Fun films. Funny characters. Your sister really liked certain ones, so maybe you wouldn't like them so much. A nicey easy time to like films cos no assholes where telling you it was uncool to like disney.

If I watch The Lion King, apart from being dazzeled by world class genius animation, I'm watching knowing that the prime target audience is families and childeren. Yet sometimes they cross over; Lion King and alot of those early modern classics and all of Pixar.

So I'm not denying Dinsey is run by wankers. I'm not denying they probably rip off ideas and that they should be punished for such a thing.

But slaggng off disney for making "kids cartoons" is bullshit. Thats what they do. They have a stratergy that some times works. When it is done well and they bare the adult in mind, it can work even better. Simply because the parent doesn't mind taking their kid to see it. Maybe even more than once!

If Disney stayed small, wasn't such a success but made the same films. You'd all be preaching about how underrated and good their films are. And for the films that you didn't like, you'd comment on the animation and how good it is!


:-)
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Postby ThisIsTheGirl on Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:19 am

You could have a point there, SBF!

However, the day Miyazaki asks Phil Collins to do the soundtrack to his latest movie, will be the day you'll find me committing Hara-Kiri on the steps of Ghibli Studios...

Needless to say, it still pisses me off that "Blame Canada" lost out to that abomination by Collins
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Postby silentbobafett on Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:23 am

but that is my point TiTG! Phil Collins is doing songs for Disney - not Ghibli! So is there room for such a thing (is there ever room for a Collins song? :-( :-) .... ) sure there is.

My point proven that little bit more. Dinsey does the song shit (read: some is shit some aint!) and Ghibli does the mature audience stuff. But the true genius of Mirazki is that akids can sit down and enjoy it but I believe the adults go ont he ture adventure.

Where in a good Disney animation the parent nods knowingly at the adult jokes while the kids go on the adventure
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Postby silentbobafett on Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:23 am

I've just passed 333! Thats half of 666! Alright! :-)
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Postby silentbobafett on Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:57 am

oh :-( ;-) :-)
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Postby sleepflower on Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:36 am

silentbobafett wrote:
Where in a good Disney animation the parent nods knowingly at the adult jokes while the kids go on the adventure


Some pixar and alice in wonderlnd, though im not sure all adults GET it.
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Postby ThisIsTheGirl on Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:30 am

silentbobafett wrote:in a good Disney animation the parent nods knowingly at the adult jokes while the kids go on the adventure


True, but like Sleepflower points out, a lot of those movies are either the Pixar films (which were mostly made before Disney owned Pixar), or the older Disney movies. Most of the more recent Disney stuff just seems instantly forgettable to me. I'd love them to bring something out which really excited me, but I don't see it happening in the next couple of years...
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Postby Icarus on Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:57 am

ThisIsTheGirl wrote:I reckon many of us UKers had the same first experience of Japanese Animation: Battle of the Planets!! What a fucking awesome show, even though I've been told that it was heavily dumbed down for the western audiences with stuff like that robot who looked like a teddy bear - ugh.



Ahhhhhhhhh yeahhhhhhhh baby!

Too right TitG - enough with this "I got back into it in the early days, the early nineties" rubbish A/H....Battle of the Planets was doing the rounds in the early eighties :lol:

And you're right again TitG - the Beeb bought Battle of the Planets without looking too closely at what they were getting. They'd bought it thinking it was a "cartoon" (oh please lets not start that again) to be shown at childrens teatime. They then discovered after purchase that many episodes contained scenes that just would not be acceptable to screen to the 6-11 year old demographic (this was the early eighties remember and mores were higher, even then).

Now...I've never got to the bottom of what the edited scenes actually were - I kinda reckon we're not talking Legend of the Overfiend here - probably just blood and actual death. I'd love to see that lost footage though :lol:

So each episode lost a few minutes on a British cutting room floor. This time then got filled with stuff especially commissioned for the UK screening - hence Casey Kasem (This is what gave rise to the scenes with 7-Zark-7 and 1-Rover-1... the originals never had that mutli-coloured robotic tampon and his irritating little mech-a-hound).

It is also why Princess speaks in that last part of the episode like the slut we know she is...rather than the overly concerned schoolgirl she gets voiced as the rest of the show.

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Postby ThisIsTheGirl on Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:05 am

Icarus wrote:It is also why Princess speaks in that last part of the episode like the slut we know she is...rather than the overly concerned schoolgirl she gets voiced as the rest of the show.

My work here is done - TRANS................MUTE!


HAhahahahaha, nice!

Image


And cheers for the info on why the BBC version was slightly dodgy - that explains a lot, actually.

PS - when is that Toshiro arriving? :grin:
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Postby Icarus on Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:13 am

ThisIsTheGirl wrote:
Icarus wrote:It is also why Princess speaks in that last part of the episode like the slut we know she is...rather than the overly concerned schoolgirl she gets voiced as the rest of the show.

My work here is done - TRANS................MUTE!


HAhahahahaha, nice!

Image


And cheers for the info on why the BBC version was slightly dodgy - that explains a lot, actually.

PS - when is that Toshiro arriving? :grin:


Tonight....it arrives tonight. Somewhere between 19.00 - 20.00.

Finally I get to shoot this Icarus fucker out the skies once and for all :wink:
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Postby havocSchultz on Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:40 am

Chairman Kaga wrote:I am no fan of the Jungle Book but I loved the Tailspin 30's art deco airplane show from the early 90's that used all of the animal characters.


I loved that fucking show...

Almost as much as Darkwing Duck...
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Postby silentbobafett on Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:06 am

Chip n Dale Rescue Ranger for me all the way! :-)
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Postby buster00 on Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:42 pm

Lately I've been taking in the action-packed anime series "Black Lagoon" on YouTube. Very engaging!

To get back to an earlier topic, the lip-synching isn't what you'd call perfect. These episodes are Japanese with subtitles. Obviously, they've left the lip movements a bit ambiguous so that they can be dubbed. They're thinking worldwide here.

But isn't it possible to use technology to cover up the mouths with lip movements that do match?


Here's Part One of Episode One, in case you've never seen it...

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Postby GreatMoose on Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:59 pm

Just to add an example, the dub to 'Last Exile' is extremely well done. Feels very natural.
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