TPB/Hardcover Collections and Original Graphic Novels (OGNs)

Graphic novels. Weekly rags. The @$$holes.

TPB/Hardcover Collections and Original Graphic Novels (OGNs)

Postby DennisMM on Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:29 pm

kcbc said we needed this thread. He's right. Dedicated to discussion of book-form comics, whether collections of previously published stuff or new material published in book form. Everything from Essential Marvels/DC Comics Presents oldies and those Heroes Reborn books you hide behind your CDs to the likes of Blankets, Watchmen, Our Cancer Year.

Discuss.


ETA: I can't believe I started this in Movie News before I caught myself. Hooray for modding powers. Don't hurt me, kcbc.
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Postby MasterWhedon on Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:33 pm

I just read all seven volumes of Y: The Last Man, and boy do I ever love me a collected story.

I buy Powers and Ultimate Spider-Man in trade, and I find they work really, really well that way, probably better than as monthlies.
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Postby doglips on Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:34 pm

I'm going to link in Lecko's Building the ultimate collection thread

Criminally, it has no love yet. It might prove useful within the context of this thread tho'
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Postby Kilgore on Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:37 pm

I think this is the only way to read any Alex ross stuff, it's just got a better impact when you read 'Marvels' or 'Kingdom Come' with his excellent paints.

'Watchmen' will always remain my favorite, and I tend to stick to 'collections' rather than originals...Also a big fan or reading 'Batman: Year One', 'The Long Halloween' and 'Dark Victory' back to back to back. I'm pretty much to the point where this is the only way I'll read massive cross-over events - so that's why I'm waiting on 'Civil War'. With the sheer amount of multi-issue crap going on, it's the only way I can follow the story fluidly (See: 'Batman: War Games' and 'No Man's Land'.

Ooh...I almost forgot 'Arkham Asylum' - easily one of my favorites.
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Postby DennisMM on Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:40 pm

MasterWhedon wrote:I just read all seven volumes of Y: The Last Man, and boy do I ever love me a collected story.

I buy Powers and Ultimate Spider-Man in trade, and I find they work really, really well that way, probably better than as monthlies.


Thanks for mentioning it. I need to order Y v.4 and Runaways v.2 through Interlibrary Loan.

I think many serialized stories now work better as collections, partly because they are designed to be read that way. "Forever" in Powers was a much easier read with most of the chapters available at once.
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Postby Leckomaniac on Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:41 pm

thedoglippedone wrote:I'm going to link in Lecko's Building the ultimate collection thread

Criminally, it has no love yet. It might prove useful within the context of this thread tho'


Thanks for the love DLO. I ALWAYS check that link when looking for new things to pick up. It really does do a great job of covering just about everything.

As for OGN's...there is a GLOWING review of K. Vaughan's PRIDE OF BAGHDAD up at Newsarama. I pre-ordered mine a while back but I coupled it with the Fables: 1001 Nights GN so it won't arrive for a while. You can access the review for PRIDE OF BAGHDAD here
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Postby Ribbons on Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:43 pm

I like the idea of TPBs and wish that I owned more than I do, but often I'll think of ones I'm interested in buying that later slip my mind. Modest as it is, my collection consists of:

-V for Vendetta

-Sin City: That Yellow Bastard

-Watchmen

-Domu

I'd recommend all of them. Just recently I purchased The Coffin, which I haven't gotten around to reading yet.
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Postby doglips on Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:52 pm

Leckomaniac wrote:
thedoglippedone wrote:I'm going to link in Lecko's Building the ultimate collection thread

Criminally, it has no love yet. It might prove useful within the context of this thread tho'


Thanks for the love DLO. I ALWAYS check that link when looking for new things to pick up. It really does do a great job of covering just about everything.



No probs, it's a very good list. I've been using it quite a bit.

I love the wait for my comics to come each month, but I buy a lot of trades, purely to read without all those bloody adverts.
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Postby Doc Holliday on Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:01 pm

I've got the Age of Apocalypse Books I-III in tpb - which is just as well as it makes it easier to follow across the various titles.

I really don't see the point in issuing all 3 before June this year, then making me wait until 15th November for the fourth and final book. though that is my birthday, so you know...happy birthday to me.

I have studiously avoided Civil War for this reason - I took one look at how many different titles were covering it and thought "I'll just wait for them to bundle them altogether for me".

Mind you....what a wait.

I might crack.
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Postby cap on Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:04 pm

Doc Holliday wrote:I've got the Age of Apocalypse Books I-III in tpb - which is just as well as it makes it easier to follow across the various titles.

I really don't see the point in issuing all 3 before June this year, then making me wait until 15th November for the fourth and final book. though that is my birthday, so you know...happy birthday to me.

I have studiously avoided Civil War for this reason - I took one look at how many different titles were covering it and thought "I'll just wait for them to bundle them altogether for me".

Mind you....what a wait.

I might crack.


Doc, I decided to stay with just the Civil War:***** stuff

There is a lot of it, but not nearly as much. Not to ruin it for people, but some of the periphrial books don't contain anything that important (from what I have been told).

AoA side books did (with some exceptions). I wasn't making a whole lot of money at the time, I damn near went broke.
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Postby Doc Holliday on Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:10 pm

I hear you Cap....I should imagine any collected works of Civil War is what, 18-24 months away yet...so the chances of me cracking are...pretty high I would think.

Then again I may distract myself with other volumes. I like what I've been hearing about Runaways so I'll be getting Vol 1 of that before Xmas. I want to start an Avengers collection as well - but given my avoidance of Civil War I'm kind of thinking I'd be better off getting an old arc rather than the recent one...

....what are some of the classic Avengers storylines currently available in tpb anyone?

I always liked when Hawkeye was around...and I do enjoy those stories where there would be a healthy amount of in-fighting too.
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Postby Flumm on Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:12 pm

Ditto on the IGN list, it has been regularly used from over here, and thinking back, I probably gleamed it from your very fingers, so belated thank you, Lecko. :roll:


Aye, 'tis most informitive reading, from my humble eyes at least, for purchase research, or just to further understand and learn of the various ways the mediums been taken, within the spotlight, so to speak, and out of it as far as I can tell.

A healthy portion, if not most of my reading material for the upcoming couple of months will be TPB's and Graphic Novels. Out of an unending necassity to satiate the geekly appetite, I think, and not least fuelled by the things I've come to learn of from sharing in the Zone collective consciousness.

It would be easy to rationalise it, or expound (probably to the threads mortal infringement - see above link) about the ideas, but it's interesting that it almost seems a given now, that the realm of story telling is just as capabley served within comic book pages, including and beyond all things lycra clad or no, than it is by any other medium, if not by the masses, then at least by those who care enough to care.

Which is a comforting/exciting/scarey thought, depending on your apetite, I think.
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Postby cap on Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:13 pm

I gotta lot of X title stuff from the early nineties. I took pretty good care of the stuff. I plan on passing it on to my kids.

I am not very familiar with the Avengers, so I don't have any input on that.

I heard the same about the Runaways, and I plan on doing the same.

I need your opinion. I am puttin the whole geek cred thing on the line, but I have not read the Watchmen, is it worth the investment.....?

Let the pummeling begin as necessary.
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Postby Doc Holliday on Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:18 pm

Thee'll be no panning here. Not on my watch. The Watchmen is most definitely worth getting Cap - but it comes at the Superhero thing from a whole other angle.

I would recommend getting it - but wouldn't want to say anything more than that for fear of taking away from the experience for you...
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Postby cap on Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:20 pm

I appreciate that my friend. Much like Vegeta and I tried not to do the same for Angel and Buffy....

I have also thought of getting into the new Astonishing X Men. Its still pretty fresh, with much Joss Whedon involvement. Got a little preview, it is very well done.
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Postby DennisMM on Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:23 pm

cap, if you're unsure check your area libraries. It's the sort of thing they might carry. If not, the newest TPB is not too expensive and you can find used copies on ebay, of course.

Anyone who loves superheroes should read Watchmen. It is the Gravity's Rainbow of comics -- story within symbol within deconstruction. It changed my view of superheroes forever. I promise I'll get my ancient review up in Comics Reviews as soon as I have decent illustrations.
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Postby Doc Holliday on Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:24 pm

cap wrote:I appreciate that my friend. Much like Vegeta and I tried not to do the same for Angel and Buffy....

I have also thought of getting into the new Astonishing X Men. Its still pretty fresh, with much Joss Whedon involvement. Got a little preview, it is very well done.


*Nods furiously*

Do this one first Cap - its brilliant, quite, quite brilliant.

Seriously. You will love it in particular. Its not that New X-Men did anything wrong, per se....but seriously...get this before WatchMen...I will put money on you loving Astonishing.
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Postby cap on Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:30 pm

Sweet, thanks for the heads up....

We may have to pull the Angel/Buffy thread back up in the next few days. I get to see Angel every morning on TNT here in the states. I so do enjoy it, even at 6:15 am.....
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Postby Brocktune on Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:39 pm

ive been reading Marvel Masterworks: The Avengers 1-10.

man, those avengers were a bunch of self righteous dicks.
and what a raw deal the hulk got. if i didnt know any better, i would guess that the relationship between the hulk and the rest of the avengers was a metaphorical reference to race relations in the workplace at the time (early 1960's). with hulk being the "black" guy to the avengers "whites only" club. i wish he had've crushed those pompus scumbags. especially iron man and hank pym. racist motherfuckers. oh, lets all pull out the red carpet for our great white savior captain america. and could they have written janet "the wasp" van dyne anymore negativley stereotypically? fuck. if i had a dime for every "tee-hee" or reference to a cute boy that she utters id be a millionaire. and thats only the first four issues.

great book. i highly reccomend it to any fans of jack kirby, or early silver age marvel stuff. be sure to keep on the lookout for the Space Phantom in issue 2. i understand he was quite the pedophile.
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Postby Lady Sheridan on Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:18 pm

Amazon.com's used book section is a great place to pick up used trades. I just bought We3 there for $7.00 plus shipping, and I got my Astonishing and Ultimate #1's for $5.00--and the seller threw in Vol 2 for free.

Alot of them aren't even used, they are bargain dealers selling books ridiculously cheap.

I'm on the lookout for a cheap Watchmen at the moment, I haven't read it either...
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Postby Bob Samonkey on Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:23 pm

Almost everything I get I get in TPB. I am lazy and do not always have money when the singles come out.
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Postby Kilgore on Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:34 pm

Bob Poopflingius Maximus wrote:Almost everything I get I get in TPB. I am lazy and do not always have money when the singles come out.


And also the frustration you must feel when your gigantic hands mangle an innocent monthly just by turning a page.....I'd imagine durability of the TPB was a huge selling point for you, Bob.

Now if they would only come out pre-laminated, so you didn't have to worry about those bothersome poo stains. Totally devalues the thing in the eyes of the CGC.

Facists.
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Postby Brocktune on Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:36 pm

Kilgore wrote:Facists.


so thats why my ears were all hot and they hurt and stuff.
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Postby Leckomaniac on Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:55 pm

Lady Sheridan wrote:Amazon.com's used book section is a great place to pick up used trades. I just bought We3 there for $7.00 plus shipping, and I got my Astonishing and Ultimate #1's for $5.00--and the seller threw in Vol 2 for free.

Alot of them aren't even used, they are bargain dealers selling books ridiculously cheap.

I'm on the lookout for a cheap Watchmen at the moment, I haven't read it either...


That is where I buy most of my stuff. Although, I bought Ultimate Spider-Man Vol. 2 HC used...and a few of the pages were missing! I was pissed.

But I did get the Absolute Watchmen used for $30...in perfect condition!

The bottom line is...you have to be careful. Sometimes its a bargain, but then again sometimes you might get a book with pages missing!
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Postby Retardo_Montalban on Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:01 pm

I just dropped $80 on the first 10 volumes of lone wolf and cub. I'm really bad at estimating the value of something, but it's in book form and has these fancy covers doen by Frank Miller. I'm also a big fan of putting sharp and deadly weapons in the immediate vicinity of children. Anybody think I got ripped off?
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Postby Leckomaniac on Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:26 pm

Here is a list of my TPB's/GN's. Just figured you folks would like a glimpse into the world of Lecko. I only JUST started collecting TPB's and GN's. For the longest time I just bought single issues and what not. So the list isn't HUGE by any stretch.

Alan Moore
-Absolute Watchmen
-Watchmen (paperback)
-Lost Girls
-V for Vendetta
-Complete DC Works

Marvel
-Astonishing X-Men vol. 1 HC
-Daredevil: Guardian Devil
-Hulk Visionaries: Peter David vol. 1
-New X-Men vol. 5
-Runaways vol. 1 HC
-Spider-Man: Blue
-Spider-Man Loves Mary-Jane: Homecoming (digest)
-Spider-Man Loves Mary-Jane vol. 1 + 2 (digest)
-Ultimate Fantastic Four vol. 1 + 2 HC
-Ultimate Spider-Man vol. 1 + 2 HC
-Ultimates vol. 1 HC

DC
Batman: Hush vol. 1 + 2
Batman: The Long Halloween
Dark Knight Returns
Kingdom Come
Superman: For All Seasons
Superman: For Tomorrow vol. 1 + 2 HC
Superman: Identity Crisis
Superman: Red Son
Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow

Also:
-Blankets
-Optic Nerve: Sleepwalk
-Planetary vol. 1 HC

Pride of Baghdad + Fables: 1001 Nights of Snowfall are on the way.
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Postby doglips on Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:23 am

Has anyone read Can't Get No yet?!?

Nice list Lecko, You need the Killing Joke!!

What's Spiderman Blue like?
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Postby Leckomaniac on Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:44 am

Ugh! I know. I have been looking to pick up the Killing Joke...it will definitely be added to the list in time.

Spider-Man: Blue is AWESOME. It is so romantic (I am a sucker for that stuff...notice my obsession with Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane) and the artwork by Sale is solid. I really can't praise the book enough. It is a gut-wrenching tale of true love. It is made worse since we (the audience) already know the outcome. Loeb and Sale really knocked this one out of the park.

I have not read Can't Get No yet. I have heard good things...I might have to keep my eye out for that one.
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Postby doglips on Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:47 am

I'll look around for Blue then. Have you read Daredevil : Yellow by Loeb & Sale? Very good.
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Postby Leckomaniac on Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:52 am

thedoglippedone wrote:I'll look around for Blue then. Have you read Daredevil : Yellow by Loeb & Sale? Very good.


I would strongly suggest you give it a shot. As for Daredevil: Yellow...I have not read it. I searched out Spider-Man because I adore the character...while I do like Daredevil I have never really LOVED the character. I understand that both Blue and Yellow cover similar topics (ie loss of a loved one driving choices and what not).

I just read the synopsis of Can't Get No. It sound strangely interesting. Have you read it? Neil Gaiman gave it praise...and I trust Neil. I am curious...is it preachy? It deals with 9/11 so I assume there is an allegorical tale being told.
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Postby doglips on Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:01 am

Best book I have read all year. Click for my rather overly enthusiastic review......
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Postby Leckomaniac on Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:05 am

So when they said in all of those reviews that it was "lyrical" and "poetic"...they meant ACUTALLY poetic...the book is told in a down-beat lyrical fashion?

Now I MUST read this book. $8 used on Amazon...consider it purchased.
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Postby doglips on Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:10 am

Yeah, it's written and visual poetry. I'm sure you'll enjoy it.
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Postby Leckomaniac on Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:13 am

The one review mentioned that it was remniscent of William Blake. Enough said.
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Postby Al Shut on Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:24 pm

Now that I think about it believe almost anything I buy has been released in some serialized form before.

From all the stuff that has been piling in my room over the years I'm most fond of:

Otomo: Akira; Domu
Moore (and various artists): Watchmen, Top Ten, Swamp Thing Collections

Miyazaki: Nausicaä

Hashimoto/Tanaka: Shamo (at least the first 13 volumes)

Kobayashi: What's Michael

A series of collections published by a german newspaper that's supposed to present an overview about influential series or characters for a low price: The issues about Batman (including Year One and The Killing Joke), Corto Maltese (Ballad of the Salt Sea), Blueberry (5 issues from Chihuahua Pearl to Angel Face), Will Eisner (To the Heart of the Storm) and Gaston
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Postby Al Shut on Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:09 pm

I decided to finaly close some of the gaps in my comic education and picked up the Dark Knight Returns and I have to say I'm a bit underwhelmed.

Sure it's not bad but I don't get the amount of praise it gets even 20 years after its release.

Would it help I knew more about Batmans history (For instance who Jason was and what exactly hapend to him)? Can somoone explain the appeal tthat the story obviously seems to have to a lot of people?
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Postby Keepcoolbutcare on Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:13 pm

Al_Shut wrote:I decided to finaly close some of the gaps in my comic education and picked up the Dark Knight Returns and I have to say I'm a bit underwhelmed.

Sure it's not bad but I don't get the amount of praise it gets even 20 years after its release.

Would it help I knew more about Batmans history (For instance who Jason was and what exactly hapend to him)? Can somoone explain the appeal tthat the story obviously seems to have to a lot of people?


Jason Todd. Replaced Dick Grayson as Robin. Killed by the Joker. (before he was killed by the stans)

I don't know what to say to convince you of DKR's utter badassery, genius and esteemed place in comics history, 'cept that in 1986, the trifecta of Watchmen, Maus, and DKR utterly revolutionized comics.

I mean, aging Bruce? The sheer chutzpah and zany logic of the idea (as Miller said in an intro, he wanted Batman to be older than he was again, like when he was a kid), coupled with the more realistic approach to the Bats (yeah, there's still the giant penny, but still...)? Stuff like that just wasn't done back then.

The heroes are gone, the world is going to shite, and who comes out of retirement to make things right? An obsessive vigilante.

The showdown with Supes, the killing(?) of the Joker, the piece by piece takedown of the mutant leader and, finally, Robin as a chick...c'mon, what the fuck didn't you like about it?

I-fucking-conic comic.
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Postby Ribbons on Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:22 pm

I think we also tend to take for granted just how much the comic did for the character of Batman. It basically set the template for who he is now.
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Postby unikrunk on Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:22 pm

Keepcoolbutcare wrote:
Al_Shut wrote:I decided to finaly close some of the gaps in my comic education and picked up the Dark Knight Returns and I have to say I'm a bit underwhelmed.

Sure it's not bad but I don't get the amount of praise it gets even 20 years after its release.

Would it help I knew more about Batmans history (For instance who Jason was and what exactly hapend to him)? Can somoone explain the appeal tthat the story obviously seems to have to a lot of people?


Jason Todd. Replaced Dick Grayson as Robin. Killed by the Joker. (before he was killed by the stans)

I don't know what to say to convince you of DKR's utter badassery, genius and esteemed place in comics history, 'cept that in 1986, the trifecta of Watchmen, Maus, and DKR utterly revolutionized comics.

I mean, aging Bruce? The sheer chutzpah and zany logic of the idea (as Miller said in an intro, he wanted Batman to be older than he was again, like when he was a kid), coupled with the more realistic approach to the Bats (yeah, there's still the giant penny, but still...)? Stuff like that just wasn't done back then.

The heroes are gone, the world is going to shite, and who comes out of retirement to make things right? An obsessive vigilante.

The showdown with Supes, the killing(?) of the Joker, the piece by piece takedown of the mutant leader and, finally, Robin as a chick...c'mon, what the fuck didn't you like about it?

I-fucking-conic comic.


All true, however, do NOT purchase, read, or even look in the general direction of The Dark Knight Strikes Again. In every sense that DKR was fan-fucking-tastic, DKSA is equally a total wash. The art is horrid, the story is convoluted, trite shit, and, well, that's about it. It sucks.

/Except for the release of Ray Palmer, kinda cool.
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Postby Keepcoolbutcare on Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:31 pm

Ribbons wrote:I think we also tend to take for granted just how much the comic did for the character of Batman. It basically set the template for who he is now.


yeah, what he said.

unikrunk wrote:do NOT purchase, read, or even look in the general direction of The Dark Knight Strikes Again. In every sense that DKR was fan-fucking-tastic, DKSA is equally a total wash. THe art is horrid, the story is covulted, trite shit, and, well, that's about it. It sucks.

/Except for the release of Ray Palmer, kinda cool.


I kinda liked it. Not enough rile the blood up in defense of it, but I thought it had more than one "kinda cool" moment...

btw uni, love that sig.
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Postby unikrunk on Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:35 pm

KCBC - yeah, if pressed, I would admit that bats and co. taking the piss out of Supes was cool, and the Flash break-out was cool. But really, the supes-bat fight thing was already done, and far better, in the first book.

And what the shit was going on with the art, and the story? Really, it was a total let down. Fucking WW looks like Zorba the Greek, fer Christ's sake
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Postby Keepcoolbutcare on Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:04 pm

unikrunk wrote:And what the shit was going on with the art, and the story? Really, it was a total let down.


yeah, I can't defend the art. Liked some panels (Bruce's fist raising with the pull on your tights line) and I can only guess that Miller was going for a more "flow-y" approach to the art, trying to make the book and story feel all futuristic, but it was such a reversal from the gritty, realistic feel of DKR that it should have been given a new title.

Story wise, I thought it was ok. I mean, it went from Reagan in the White House (actor) to a hologram (same difference). Lex and Brainaic had taken over, imposed martial law, had Supes doing their bidding. Much larger scale with so many more "heroes" that the main character, the one, you know, WE BOUGHT THE BOOK FOR, was practically non-existent. Personally, I think Bats works best on a more local scale, rather than worldstage. To paraphrase Gordon, "he got too big".

The execution of the story via the art, however, was fucking dreadful.

unikrunk wrote:Fucking WW looks like Zorba the Greek, fer Christ's sake


hey, her vag brought Supes back from his post Bat-whupping stupor.

wonder-vag.

she was a bit swarthy tho'...
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Postby DennisMM on Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:33 pm

I enjoyed Miller's Question, which appears to have inspired the Justice League Unlimited version of the character.
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Postby doglips on Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:41 pm

I love the art in DKSA, it's a visual acid trip!

There are some stunning panels contained in this book. Check out the top panels on P 236+237, they would look fantastic on a wall as a fine art/graphic print. That for me is the difference between TDKR + DKSA the first book is stunning in it's comic art, the second book really is more akin to paneled fine art.

The Atom transformations are beautifully done all the way through, P 18-23 are awesome, such considered use of shadow and the reveal out from the petri dish is fantastic.

P 86+87 are stunning, great colour work, especially the Kryptonite napalm panel.

The double page spread of Batman thrashing Supes with the Kryptonite gloves is badass!

P 183-189 are just eyewateringly good. It does not get much better than that IMO.
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Postby Al Shut on Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:38 am

Keepcoolbutcare wrote:I don't know what to say to convince you of DKR's utter badassery, genius and esteemed place in comics history, 'cept that in 1986, the trifecta of Watchmen, Maus, and DKR utterly revolutionized comics.

I mean, aging Bruce? The sheer chutzpah and zany logic of the idea (as Miller said in an intro, he wanted Batman to be older than he was again, like when he was a kid), coupled with the more realistic approach to the Bats (yeah, there's still the giant penny, but still...)? Stuff like that just wasn't done back then.

The heroes are gone, the world is going to shite, and who comes out of retirement to make things right? An obsessive vigilante.

The showdown with Supes, the killing(?) of the Joker, the piece by piece takedown of the mutant leader and, finally, Robin as a chick...c'mon, what the fuck didn't you like about it?

I-fucking-conic comic.


Sure it's hard to apreciate innovation when I'm already used to the stuff that was influenced by it (for instance I liked old Bruce Wayne better on that future Batman Cartoon show)

But apart from the groundbreaking there nothing much to it, it might be one of the first to do stuff like this but not one of the best.

The realism seems pretty debateable to me, all politicians are caricatures although both police commisionars are described as capable the police is powerless against the violence and crime but nobody knows why and what they trys to do about it. The mutants have zero motivation and are just criminals out of fun andcan be converted just as easily.

If there's point behind all this I'm afraid I don't like it.

Wow now I like it less than I did yesterday, but still I would say it's decently done but not great.
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Postby Pacino86845 on Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:57 am

I'm with Al Shut about Dark Knight Returns... I thought it had a couple of cool moments, but in general I found it less than impressive. It might have historical value or whatever, but I read Watchmen now and I think it's genius... DKR was all right in some spots, but a lot of the dialogue was derivative, the punk gangster bad guys are the most generic sort... and those introspective thought balloons (rectangles rather) are something I'm sick of in comics. It just oozes cheesy to me.
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Postby unikrunk on Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:19 am

I don't think you can really compare the two books; apples and footballs.

Watchmen is a deftly layered, incredibly executed work, and functions on a whole other level than any other comic, even Moore's other work.

DKR may not be the best comic ever, but I think it is the best Batman comic ever, well, ties with Year One at the very least.


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Postby Al Shut on Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:13 am

unikrunk wrote:I don't think you can really compare the two books; apples and footballs.

Watchmen is a deftly layered, incredibly executed work, and functions on a whole other level than any other comic, even Moore's other work.

DKR may not be the best comic ever, but I think it is the best Batman comic ever, well, ties with Year One at the very least.



That's like saying you can't compare them because one is better than the other. Since they're often named in the same sentence like this
Keepcoolbutcare wrote: in 1986, the trifecta of Watchmen, Maus, and DKR utterly revolutionized comics.

a comparison is only natural.
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Postby DennisMM on Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:19 am

DKR broke ground for a whole new genre of adult-oriented tights&capes, too many of which were dreadful. It took a character who, though respected, was a cypher. DKR made Bruce Wayne a person even if that person wasn't particularly attractive. Miller created a vision of the Wayne murders so iconic that every flashback uses nearly identical imagery. While Batman's rally from utter defeat to mastery of the gang leader was ridiculous, Miller introduced martial arts and weaponry that had not been seen before and are considered almost essential today.

Watchmen is superhero comics by Thomas Pynchon. DKR is superhero comics by Ernest Hemingway filtered through William Faulkner.
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Postby Keepcoolbutcare on Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:20 am

DennisMM wrote:Watchmen is superhero comics by Thomas Pynchon. DKR is superhero comics by Ernest Hemingway filtered through William Faulkner.


well said.
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