How "The Man" Takes Back Counterculture

[Ribbons]

I'd been meaning to start this thread this summer when I heard The Beatles' "All You Need Is Love" on a Chase credit card commercial, but stuff sort of got in the way, and eventually it fell by the wayside. The idea came to me again this week when I heard Don McLean's "American Pie" over a Chevy commercial.

"All You Need Is Love" is an anti-commercialist song. "American Pie" is about the deterioration of American symbols like Chevy trucks. Which makes it pretty ironic that the former was used to hock credit cards and the latter a CHEVY TRUCK. Yet there they are, being used to hock 'em anyway. And who can stay mad when they're so darn catchy? Just fade the music out before the salacious lyrics hit and nobody'll know the difference. Now I have shitty taste in music, but something about this seems... off... to me.

-Do you have any other examples of inappropriate songs or celebrity appearances used to push a product?

-Who's to blame: the people who choose the song for not recognizing/caring about its inherent irony, or the people who they're selling to for not recognizing/caring about the lyrics enough to notice that their messages are being warped?

-Is it possible for anything "counterculture" to escape the clutches of commercialism these days?

-And, irony aside, is it any worse/different from using songs in advertising on a regular basis?

Okay, well, that seems to be that. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm getting into my Chevy to go buy a 24-pack of Coca-Cola. And maybe a new pair of Nikes. Mmm...
_____________________________________

[MasterWhedon]

Nice topic, Ribbons.

I remember a few years back, around the time of Austin Powers 2, when they did the music video/Chevy commercial (I thik it was Chevy) with Lenny Kravitz's cover of "American Woman" with Heather Graham rolling around all seductive-like. They had big American flags draped behind her and such, and it was sorta turned into the USA hot girl anthem, when it was intended to originally be an attack on US policies.

[stereosforgeeks]

I don't think the people they are selling these items to realize the inherent irony. Even if we the consumer do notice it's now become more of a *wink, wink* thing.

[TonyWilson]

I think this happens constantly. Dylan advertising ipods is the one I've noticed most recently, but I think it's the very nature of capitalism...it absorbs anything that could be a threat (no matter how insignificant) and perverts it just enough to make a buck.

[John-Locke]

Can you get anymore ironic than "Born In The USA" being used by Regan during his election campaign?

I think not.

[DennisMM]

Yeah, but Springsteen kicked the Reagan campaign's ass on it and they dropped the song. Then he dissed Mondale.

Ribs, "All You Need is Love" is in a commercial for one reason. Michael Jackson, who bought 99% of the joint Lennon-McCartney/Northern Songs publishing rights, is broke. He sold off a big chunk of NS recently; either he or another owner okayed the song's use. McCartney and Yoko Ono had no say.

[stereosforgeeks]

With things like Hot-Topic defining "punk" and "goth" for the mall consumers. Hell they even make money off anarchy shirts, which is pretty ridiculous. You have to look a lot further to find any sort of true counter-culture group, but then again how much relevancy can said group have? Hell the only one I can even think of is the neo-hippies which would include vegans, etc… Hell hipsters even have to appease each other now.

Sad state of affairs if you ask me.

[lyra belacqua]

I think this happens constantly. Dylan advertising ipods is the one I've noticed most recently, but I think it's the very nature of capitalism...it absorbs anything that could be a threat (no matter how insignificant) and perverts it just enough to make a buck.

Yes, that, but also it's because the consumers (as a whole, I'm sure not many Zoners) don't examine pop culture enough. "American Woman" or "Born in the USA" are popular songs that not much thought is put into what is actually being said. Back in the day, maybe (I really don't know-to young for the examples given here). But by now, people just sing along or recognize the hook and their gone-no close reading.

Most people just live in pop culture and never stop to examine it.

[DennisMM]

Definitely the case for "Born in the USA." What conservative would embrace

Born down in a dead man's town
the first kick I took was when I hit the ground
End up like a dog that's been beat too much
'Til you spent your whole life just coverin' up

Got in a little home town jam
So they put a rifle in my hand
Sent me off to a foreign land
To go and kill the yellow man

Came back home to the refinery
Hirin' man said, son if it was up to me
Went down to see my VA man
He said, son don't you understand?

Springsteen's lyrics are a fine portrait of Reagan-era America, but all many heard was the reapeated line "Born in the USA." He's not happy, you idiots, he thinks and knows that he deserves better!

[TonyWilson]

I think this happens constantly. Dylan advertising ipods is the one I've noticed most recently, but I think it's the very nature of capitalism...it absorbs anything that could be a threat (no matter how insignificant) and perverts it just enough to make a buck.

Yes, that, but also it's because the consumers (as a whole, I'm sure not many Zoners) don't examine pop culture enough. "American Woman" or "Born in the USA" are popular songs that not much thought is put into what is actually being said. Back in the day, maybe (I really don't know-to young for the examples given here). But by now, people just sing along or recognize the hook and their gone-no close reading.

Most people just live in pop culture and never stop to examine it.

Always a pleasure to agree with Lyra.
I remember when Radiohead announced their new album would be called "Haile To The Thief" obviously about Bush, well there was a furore amongst some people that they were anti-Bush. I remember screaming at these people something along the lines of how fucking idiotic were they to not know Radiohead were going to be anti-Bush. Did they never pay attention to the lyrics or anything like that? And they didn't, they just liked the tunes. It's a shocking realisation. People do not give a fuck about subtext, or even just plain old text. Like Eddie Izzard says, people pay attention to how you look not what you say.

[Brocktune]

everytime i hear a ramones song in a commercial, i know that joey, dee dee, and johnny are all spinning in their graves.

[stereosforgeeks]

I remember that as well Tony, but it's easier to absorb and not think.

[havocSchultz]

people pay attention to how you look not what you say.

No wonder nobody pays any attention to me around here...

[lyra belacqua]

People do not give a fuck about subtext, or even just plain old text. Like Eddie Izzard says, people pay attention to how you look not what you say.

I agree right back.
Of course, agreeing with Eddie Izzard is pretty damn easy.

And have you ever noticed that because you know how to read subtext, people think you're a genius? I used to try to explain how it wasn't that hard if you paid attention. Now I just let them think I really am that smart (cuz I am!).

[TonyWilson]

People do not give a fuck about subtext, or even just plain old text. Like Eddie Izzard says, people pay attention to how you look not what you say.

I agree right back.
Of course, agreeing with Eddie Izzard is pretty damn easy.

Yeh, how can you disagree with someone with such good dress sense.

And have you ever noticed that because you know how to read subtext, people think you're a genius? I used to try to explain how it wasn't that hard if you paid attention. Now I just let them think I really am that smart (cuz I am!).

IPAMPILASH. I know, I couldn't believe it at first...I took it in my stride though

But it is a strange kind of thing. People look at you a bit differently.

[Ribbons]

Springsteen's lyrics are a fine portrait of Reagan-era America, but all many heard was the reapeated line "Born in the USA." He's not happy, you idiots, he thinks and knows that he deserves better!

It's like Dennis just said: "USA! USA!"

[DennisMM]

People do not give a fuck about subtext, or even just plain old text. Like Eddie Izzard says, people pay attention to how you look not what you say.

I agree right back.
Of course, agreeing with Eddie Izzard is pretty damn easy.

And have you ever noticed that because you know how to read subtext, people think you're a genius? I used to try to explain how it wasn't that hard if you paid attention. Now I just let them think I really am that smart (cuz I am!).

And since you've got it going on they think you're even smarter!

[Chairman Kaga]

I'm sick of hearing otherwise staunch conservative "Christian" douche bag DJ's play "Imagine".
Imagine if you listened to the lyrics and realized you enjoy a commie atheist leftist utopia......Your head would probably explode.

[Theta]

Most PEOPLE just don't get it. They don't pay attention to the lyrics, or think about what the song has to say. Most of the time they don't have to; most Top 40 is utterly idiotic.

Still, it does appall me when people who should know better do it. Who in Apple okayed the use of Cream's "White Room" for the white iMac?

[magicmonkey]

In terms of not listening to lyrics, Hmm, I see it as a natural defence from psychological assault. Come on, the spice girls??

[DennisMM]

I'm sure whoever owns the publishing rights to "White Room" sold the song. That may be composer Jack Bruce; I'm not sure. What has Apple to do with Cream? They recorded for Polydor/Polygram.

[mistertim]

Hmmm.... I am in complete agreement with Ribbons original post, it does trouble me when ad execs take something supposedly 'rebellious' or 'alternative', and use it to try and associate those values with their products, however, I think it's also important to remember that the 90% of the recorded music inddustry (the 90% controlled by just four labels - EMI, Sony-BMG, Warners, Universal) is, in itself, a massive corporate cash cow, so therefore, could you not raise the same criticisms at the songs themselves?

Since industry discovered the concept of the 'teenager' in the 1960s, businesses have been quick to use the concepts of youthfullness, rebellion and the counter-culture to sell products, and this includes the recorded music industry as much as apple computer or microsoft. The Beatles' Apple Records label is part of EMI, so I am explicitly including them in this too - and (with the exception of selling all their publishing copyrights to Michael Jackson) they have been extremely shrewd business people throughout their careers, something i have great difficulty reconciling with the apparently 'anti-commercialist' lyrics to their songs mentioned above.

[MonsieurReynard]

It always amazes me with people surprised by Dylan appearing in ads- from the start he's sold out (going electric, Starbucks, suggesting American farmers should get money from Live Aid).

In terms of culture, it is indeed true that the mainstream will always clean up the outside threats to its existence. In the 50's the threat of rhythmn and blues became rock n roll which itself has now become a cliche, a word in our language ("Pottery is the new rock n roll!") that we forget was actually a term for sex.

And now in the 21st century the cycle begins anew- Public Enemy yell "Don't Believe The Hype" but this then gives way to rappers telling us how great commercialism is and R n B so slick you could call it hair gel.

I think nowadays the very concept of "selling out" is dated. If you want to get ahead now you HAVE TO sell out, or nobody hears you.

And before anyone says "What about the bands on Myspace?" Who owns Myspace? News Corp, managed by that soft hearted liberal Rupert Murdoch.

[ThisIsTheGirl]

What has Apple to do with Cream?

They taste damned good together, by golly.

/I gots nuthin'

[silentbobafett]

ITs because most commerical tunes have no real lyrics to them. NOthing that means anything, they're to carry song from a to b with out any controversy (even if the song says I'm Horny, horny horny horny!) anyway, this songs gt played all day on the radio, in tv programs etc, they swarm the charts. Teeny boppers buy the,. Parents buy them for their kids.

Suddenly songs don't need to be about anything, they just need to be catchy.

So when you have somethign great like any of the songs mentioned above. They have the magic hit: a catchy tune with great lyrics (by catchy I mean memorable, tune whistling stuff!) anyway, so these are then used in adverts. Plus people think they are "cool" if they listen to the beatles, not actually know what its all about.

So lyrics, in mainstream culture, have become redundant.

If the people who brought the Beatles now, I'm thiking of people who nip into town pick up the Daily Mail, grab the best of the Beatles and have a moan with the wife abouthow music now is all about sex n drugs etc... I wonder if these people know how fucking crazy and drug fuelled these Beatles recordings really are!

Was Bill Hicks who said: "If you don't like drugs you can throw away every good album you ever brought"

A-fucking-Men!

[doglips]

Man, you love sweeping statements. What age are these Daily Mail readers?

Edit - LOL, in fact you should be working for the demographic invention office of a multi national corporation.

[ThisIsTheGirl]

Gold is a top tune!

Formation records did a series of DnB tunes which were all named after colours - some of them were exceptional. "Black" still gets a space on my MP3 player. But I suppose they aren't "songs", per se.


Remember that atrocious song called Blue though?

"I'm blue ba-da boo ba-da bah". That was a true musical turd.

ETA: I just thought I'd randomly address tunes which were named after colours

SBF - seriously man, you have to let go of this bad experience you've had with that "Horny" tune. I can tell it's something you think about a lot - move on, mate! As for these people who are only just getting into the Beatles, I kind of get what you mean, but it's a bit harsh to tar them all with the same brush. I'd imagine that you, like myself, were born several years after the Beatles disbanded, no?

[doglips]

Damn, sorry TITG I thought I had derailed the thread, so I deleted the Spandau post.

Blue was very bad wasn't it.

[Ribbons]

ETA: I just thought I'd randomly address tunes which were named after colours

Hahaha! You're silly!

There's no way that somebody wrote a post about songs with colors for names and then deleted it fifteen minutes later!

"Pink" and "Yellow" are also prime examples of songs that kick ass at being about absolutely nothing.

[doglips]

What about the people that are discovering the Beatles and empowering themselves with the messages the songs give?

Only yesterday I saw a young female student wearing a Beatles T-Shirt and Blackspot sneakers - was she aware of the irony of that fashion statement, or is it good that the Beatles can still go hand in hand with anti-corporatism through their lyrics, rather than be branded by their back catalogue sell outs?

[ThisIsTheGirl]

Heheh - no worries guys. I thought I was going nuts there for a minute!

Anyway, I'll try and steer things back on topic.

Levi's were one of the first companies to start using cool counter-culture songs to punt their wares, were they not?

[doglips]

Interesting, how then the pop music marketing men used Levi's as a springboard for chart success, spawning a slew of one hit wonders.

Levi's really fucked up J Spaceman's career.

[silentbobafett]

I love sweeping statements!

They rule!



I just can't stand the Daily Mail. I know a fair few people who read it and are good people. But I don't give them an easy time when it comes to newspapers

As for Horny... its not so much that I hate the tune (which I do, but thats not the point) it just embodies so much! Like how people moan about certain things - usually rock bands etc - or whatever... but what I'm trying to say is that Horny is a great example of the music industry. Or Cheeky Girls. They aren't brought as a laugh, people by them becasue they like the music. People play them at home or in the car or in the ipod. Its a nightmare... and I can't think of a worse song that horny. And then yousee kids running around singing it and you wonder what the fuck is going on.

People used to call rock n roll "the devils music"... hmmmm

[ThisIsTheGirl]

But I just don't get this assertion: "like how people moan about certain things...usually rock bands etc" - who is moaning about rock bands? And fair enough, you don't like the Cheeky Girls etc - but I'm not sure what your point is. So people buy them and play them on their i-pod - so what? People are free to listen to whatever they want, aren't they?

"Horny is a great example of the music industry, Or Cheeky Girls"? Perhaps you could go into a little more detail? Because as it stands, that (sweeping) statement doesn't make a huge amount of sense....not to mention the fact that the majority of Zoners will have no idea of who the hell The Cheeky Girls even are!

As I understand it, this thread is more about how ad men take well-loved songs with subversive lyrics/messages, and use them to sell jeans and sneakers

[Doc Holliday]

As I understand it, this thread is more about how ad men take well-loved songs with subversive lyrics/messages, and use them to sell jeans and sneakers

I'm going to break a cardinal rule and just join right in without reading the whole thread first...I've considered the fact I'm going to quickly make a jerk out of myself but its Friday and I'm ok with that....

Just reading that comment TitG, I was reminded of all those Levi 501 ads back in the early 90's. They started off really good....Muddy Waters...Smokin LightStack.....John Lee Hooker...The Clash and even Marc Bolan. Back then that was the first time I had heard most of those songs on the TV and I admit it - the stylings of the ads worked on me and I bothered to find out more about the songs because of them...so in a way I thank Levi for the whistle-stop education of some classic standards of days gone-by.

But then these ads outgrew themselves and we started getting songs made for the ads themselves - and we ended up with first Stiltskin (fine if you are speeding away from your girlfriends house after a row and just want to be a menace on the road)....and ultimately the complete tripe that was Bablyon Zoo. Great opening - then shit...the demand is out there...quickly, make the rest of the song up.

Oh dear...its shit.

So guess, on balance...I prefer it when they go with a classic tune, even if its just to sell Vagisil or whatever.

Intrigued by claims of the subversive though - which ones are you thinking about (this is the bit where I should have read the thread isn't it. Dammit).

I read the Daily Mail SBF...you live in Maidstone don't you? No wonder you hate the Mail...when we finally do rise to power your town is the first to get burned off the map, you chav

I call FASCIST!

[ThisIsTheGirl]

Doc - wise opinions as ever. And yes, I'll have to hold my hands up at this point and say that I bought my first Muddy Waters LP after they used Mannish Boy way back in the day (before Goodfellas, I might add). I do believe the Marc Bolan one was our first introduction to a Mr Bradley Pitt, too!

The one with Heart Attack and Vine was exceptional too, as I recall. The "subversive" is mainly covered in Ribbons' first post, top of the page - so you could just read that to get the general gist. Anyway, I have less of a problem with this issue than a lot of people, in fact, I could probably make a case that it isn't the advertisers that are in the wrong, but the bands/singers themselves who "sell out" by letting their songs be used for ads. But hey, I don't know of many artists who work for free - so I don't have a huge problem with them looking to get paid.

Jeez, David Lynch directed that PS2 "Third Place" commercial, so I can live with plenty of stuff....


Lastly:

and ultimately the complete tripe that was Bablyon Zoo. Great opening - then shit...the demand is out there...quickly, make the rest of the song up.

Oh dear...its shit.

So guess, on balance...I prefer it when they go with a classic tune, even if its just to sell Vagisil or whatever.

You funny

[Doc Holliday]

OK - lunchtime so I bothered to make my lazy slope ass read [most of] the thread.

I don't feel that stupid though - my point would be "does it matter?".

Sometimes a song is just a song

/Pseudo-Freud

I always thought American Pie was primarily a lament against the death of Buddy Holly...one of the first commercial rock n rollers, so if it gets used as rocking good track to help prop up the declining American Automotive industry he probably wouldn't turn in his grave too much.

"All You Need Is Love" was primarily an anti-war song wasn't it? As long as its not being written on the bombs we drop again, no biggy (/Col Kurtz)

And the Beatles, with all of their tours, merchandise and reinvention were never averse in actions if not words to commericalistion, so again...in my world, big deal.

I think if you're a multi-million selling artist you're on very shaky ground to try and disavow your association with "the machine". Like the old-fashioned socialist that still sends HIS kids to the best school the second he's on a decent wage. I don't mean these people are disingenuine....just that like it or not there is a knowing hypocrisy at play and they are very rarely a victim in this scenario.

I mean crap...this is a bit precious isn't it? I love U2's music...but that doesn't mean I sit around beseeching people about the hypocrisies of religion....I just enjoy a good stadium band and a thumping good beat.

Criminy guys....where's Vic with one of his homemade specials when you all need him eh?

Go buy some jeans and calm down the lot of you...

EDIT-FUCKING-EDIT!!!

Ah....there's that jackass feeling I was hoping for from earlier! this post just crossed with your last one TitG.

....that Bolan Levis ad was the first time Mr Pitt appeared on our screens - in the UK at least. Its what got him the Thelma and Louise gig...though he had to work his ass off to get it....the ad if anything counted against him as I understand it, what with Ridley watching UK TV....

[ThisIsTheGirl]

Great minds.....


And I have to agree about the meaning of American Pie too - although my dad reckons that there are undertones of hatred for the Beatles in that song too. He claims that the line "Lenin read a book on Marx" was meant to evoke "Lennon read a book on Marx".....

[Doc Holliday]

Great minds.....

Maybe....but right now I think we're profiting from the time difference. I fully expect Ribbons and Dennis to take me to school on this thread within 24 hours

[ThisIsTheGirl]

Yeah, but by then, we'll be halfway to Mexico!

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[silentbobafett]

My problem with the Daily Mail is its a paper for people who think they're reading a paper with intelligenc. Its not bright and red. It looks like it should be full of deep stories.

But more often than not its the same old shit:

Prisons good.
Immigriants bad
war on iraq good
cannabis bad
gossip column good
factual reporting bad


I never bother to read papers now - unless its for a laugh. I don't see why people do. I just pop onto the internet and read a few different sites. If I can get the story from both sides it becomes a much more interesting piece, not saying its the truth or I'm better off thanthose who don't; but, for me, I don't feel like some ones trying to feed me a shit load of bullshit. At least the Sun is honest about it. Its bright and red and has a pair of tits the minute you open it up. Anyone who takes that seriously is crazy... but the Mail... the mail is a lot more clever in its ways...

I read this interesting thing where they took a couple of journalists from the Sun and a couple from, I think, the independent and they had to work on each others paper. This weren't a "fakin it" TV show or anything, it was quite interesting.

The tabloid journalists did fine. But the broadsheet ones didn't. It was because the tabloids had to learn how to twist certain facts, how to dumb things down. Where as the broadsheets did this to either a lesser extent or just didn't do it.

My point being is that I hate papers. I hate Daily Mail most of all.

I hate the hippocrite bastards who read them (present company EXCLUDED - Doc... you suprise me)

bringing me back to topic:

There is a HUGE fucking problem with people listening to the Cheeky Girls (to those who don't know who the cheeky girls are: hmmmm well can you guess by their name that they are a shit pop act? You can! You're not stupid? Well done... lets continue) so the problem with them is that these singles sell shit loads. Turn on Top of the Pops (before it was cancelled) and see Cheeky Girls. Look at the good old days.

Why have single sales droped by 60%, why has TOTP been cancelled?

Because the music is shit. Because its all turned into extensions of adverts. Because Levi could create a number 1 single that was shit apart from the first 10 seconds.

If you can create a number 1 from an advert you can anything.

Boy Bands are adverts of what "could be". A re-enforcement of what is acheiveable. Girls want boys like this. Boys want to be like this to get the girls.

Same goes for girl bands.

What makes rock bands great is that you don't have to be good looking. Sorry peeps but Rolling Stones weren't never good looking. I promise you that ain't what got them laid!

Music needs to be about you. You need to connect. You need to put on a record and feel it flowing through you. Music can be the most personnel thing int he world. It can get you more than a loved one.

But music that fills the charts these days are music that tells you WHAT to be. Or, and I'm sorry to offend people here, but don't even go that far!

Music that is just bland and awful.


So if you need to appeal to a hipper, older audience what do you do? You steer clear and head into the back catalouge. It don't matter about the lyrics - as long as its a well known song and catchy. They don't give a fuck.

And why should we?

its a fucking crying shame that its used. But the best thing to do is ignore it. The people who will buy a product and is dragged in by everything probably doesn't have a fucking clue.

I have no idea of the adverts you're on about because if they are American.. rules me out... if they are on our TV... I don't watch it... so I never see any adverts. But they piss me off

I did catch that Orange one with all the people dressed like Mannequins out of Topshop (Top shop, for those not in Britian, is a shop that sells clothes. Hence the "dressed like..." bit. They have a brother shop called Topman) and River Island (ditto above) clothes. The music was so "hip". I wanted to vomit.

Who the fuck watches this things and thinks: Hey, thats me! I'm going to Orange so I can float bit racoon balloons with a bunch of thick gentlemen on a beach.

Nah, fuck em.

And as for being a Chav. I think its fair to say that I love it! I try to keep my suredy-nuff-then-dowdy-cacka-chavey-larrit0boy down to a minimum because as TiTG reminded me - its an American site. But if I could speak like I do down here I would Swear on my mother left bit of toe that I'm well chuffed you know about Maidstone and us chavs.

We seem to have the worst one percent of Essex and Chatham and the Medway towns pushed into this one place.

It was revealed the other day that the highest area for teenage pregnancy's in Europe is in Maidstone. And that area in Maidstone is Parkwood. I went to school there. I love it!

So from one Chav to my fellow London suity man.

Acutally thats the problem with London, you're never sure are you? Its so diverse!

Its like are people from London shit eating scum - like the people I see. Trendy assholes. Production House workers (aka fools - whats with the Wages dude!) or dole or dull(!) Struggling Background Artists....


oh shit!!! Got a meeting I forgot about! Fucka doodoledoo!

Any way its Friday the 13th. Im happy. I hope everyone knows that I 'm crazy and just having a laugh.

Any offence caused to anyone isn't meant, except Daily Mail readers and buyers of modern pop music.

Have a great weekend people!

Love

SBF

[MonsieurReynard]

As much as I like Bill Hicks, I do have to disagree that every great album was written on drugs.

If that were the case, every bored idiot I met at uni was a genius, as opposed to a Rambly McGee in his bedroom shunning the light.

It's worth noting comedians like Russ Noble who go on very creative rants are vehemently drug free and even Hicks himself tried to kick smoking toward the end.

I personally don't think drugs or drink make an artist great. They're often a release as much as anything- it's no coincidence The Beatles came up with crazy surreal stuff on a retreat in India- they were getting out of the public eye as much as anything.

And anyone who's read High Concept, the story about Don Simpson will know that drugs and creativity do not necessarily go on to form masterpieces...

[unikrunk]

There is no counter-culture, no sub-culture, esoteric is a dead word, all things are assimilated; the speed of assimilation is in direct correlation with the exponential increase of information, and its accessibility.

[Doc Holliday]

And as for being a Chav. I think its fair to say that I love it! I try to keep my suredy-nuff-then-dowdy-cacka-chavey-larrit0boy down to a minimum because as TiTG reminded me - its an American site. But if I could speak like I do down here I would Swear on my mother left bit of toe that I'm well chuffed you know about Maidstone and us chavs.

We seem to have the worst one percent of Essex and Chatham and the Medway towns pushed into this one place.

It was revealed the other day that the highest area for teenage pregnancy's in Europe is in Maidstone. And that area in Maidstone is Parkwood. I went to school there. I love it!

So from one Chav to my fellow London suity man.

Acutally thats the problem with London, you're never sure are you? Its so diverse!

Its like are people from London shit eating scum - like the people I see. Trendy assholes. Production House workers (aka fools - whats with the Wages dude!) or dole or dull(!) Struggling Background Artists....

LOL - there are days on the Zone where I live for your comebacks!

Don't forget, I live just around the corner in Sevenoaks 8)

Have a good weekend too Burberry-Boy!!

[MonsieurReynard]

More on London- on the one hand, the guys at Total Film were dudes, properly laid back but still getting on with work, and very accomodating to my hick ways.

However, I went to a post production company and was rejected on the grounds I was "too formal" both in dress and addressing people.

The first point was fair enough (didn't know I'd be handling lunches) but the second was odd- somehow I was expected to work from 9am to 7.30pm and maintain this mysterious informality.

Doesn't help most of my other jobs were retail based, so they expect you to grin like a plastic idiot.

[DennisMM]

There is no counter-culture, no sub-culture, esoteric is a dead word, all things are assimilated; the speed of assimilation is in direct correlation with the exponential increase of information, and its accessibility.

"To live is to collaborate." - William S. Burroughs

[ThisIsTheGirl]

Why have single sales droped by 60%, why has TOTP been cancelled?

Because the music is shit.

Erm - I think it might be because most people woke up to the fact that singles were a waste of money, so it's all about the album charts these days. And if you look at the album charts, you'll see a lot more quality music than in there than in the single charts. This is because the main purchasers of CD singles these days, are little kids aged 8-14. The demise of TOTP is down to the rise of MTV and other all-music channels, and the shifting values of BBC1 - it has very little to do with the current state of the music industry.

According to Wiki, the Cheeky Girls have had 6 singles out over the course of the last 2 and a half years. 1 of those singles got to number 2, two got to number 3, with the other ones charting at 10, 29 and 50. This hardly makes them responsible for the death of pop music, mate. These things move in cycles.

I'd be more worried about the likes of James Blunt and Dido than a couple of Transylvanians who look like drug mules. Also, you keep harking back to the golden era of rock/pop: the 60s. Yes, that was a great decade, but it was unique for about a billion different reasons. The 50s were pretty good too, but if you check out songs from earlier than that, you might realise that the 60s were the exception, not the rule. Have you ever heard popular lyrical music from the 20s? I can assure you: it's shite.

[DennisMM]

Because singles can be dowloaded more cheaply (or stolen for free) than they can be purchased.

They canceled TOTP? For this ignorant American that's on par with The Times going tabloid-format.

[Doc Holliday]

Earlier on another thread I erroneously referred to the spelling Tom Hanks' surname as the most enduring deliberate typo out there...

the likes of James Blunt

.....I stand corrected.

[ThisIsTheGirl]

They canceled TOTP? For this ignorant American that's on par with The Times going tabloid-format.

It did come as something of a shock, but the show had been on the decline for years.

...and I don't know if you were being ironic about The Times going tabloid - because it has happened! Of course, they'd never use the phrase "tabloid". It's a "compact newspaper", don't you know!