John Wayne, You Goddamned Pinkos!

[Doc Holliday]

John Wayne was, certainly before Harrison Ford at least, the most popular actor America produced by a country mile.

I've lost count of the amount of films of his I used to watch when I was young...seemed like there was a different one on every weekend - and I loved them - couldn't get enough. Cavlary Officer? Great. Marine - darn tootin. Cowboy? Top of the pile.

But could he act? Or did he just walk tall? Did he have screen presence - or does that take more than barking lines out woodenly?

Perhaps he was representative of a time, a place - and doesn't age so well...his films often presented things in a very 2-dimensional way...right or wrong, black and white - and they don't always make for comfortable viewing in today's more complicated world.

The man himself wasn't a particularly pleasant individual, by all accounts - famously sleective in memory about his own contribution to past war efforts, he remained resolutely Republican in his views and was the kind scary in his condemnation of others. but given his legacy of films, should this be another case of separating the artist from the art?

Not all his films were basic - "The Searchers" is a well-acknowledged classic...but I also always enjoyed "The Shootist" and even "Rio Bravo".

So whaddya reckon to "The Duke" - deserved Cinema Great or no?

[John-Locke]

John Wayne was a goddamn putz.

But even he would have posted this in Movie Reviews not Movie News.

[Keepcoolbutcare]

famously sleective in memory

maybe it was all that devil's weed he admitted to puffin'.

He could act ok enough, but as you say he was a presence, rather than a performer.

[TonyWilson]

John Wayne was a stick

[Doc Holliday]

John Wayne was a goddamn putz.

See...I think this too....but as a kid I fucking loved his films. It sucks when growing up reveals something to be crap all along....

[Doc Holliday]

John Wayne was a stick

A Smokey Thingie?

[TonyWilson]

Tell me you've seen Repo Man, Doc?

[minstrel]

While I may disagree with his political views, I appreciate him on screen. At least, in the westerns.

He did have a presence, a unique line delivery, and a strong sense of steadiness and dependability - I'm sure that, as a very manly man, he regarded those as paramount virtues. And there's nothing wrong with that, IMO.

[Chairman Kaga]

Depends....As Ghengis Khan John Wayne was Lame as something like Rooster Cogburn Wayne was genius.

[Doc Holliday]

Tell me you've seen Repo Man, Doc?

[Cpt Kirks 2pay]

John Wayne was a goddamn putz.

But even he would have posted this in Movie Reviews not Movie News.

AAAHHHAAAHAHAHAHAAHAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I dunno about how good an actor he is. Sure he was limited. Apparently h turn as A Roam Centurin in the best story ever told 9DAMN THIS HSIT KEYBOAD IT'S ,MAKING ME LZY!) his line of 'Thees boy is truuleey the son of Gaaaooooorrrrrd! is unintentionally hilaroius!

But to be that great and popular does take more acting talent than perosnality and prescence. agina, like Ford jkust being in action or certain roles, put John Wayne in something which requires a different approach and characterisation, the guy is sure to show what he is capable of, albeit the roof level of this cersatility would be lower than many others.

[HollywoodBabylon]

Politically, I'm about as far apart from Wayne as The Earth is from The Sun, and as an actor he exuded great screen presence but little else. Make no mistake, he was a great star but not a great actor. Not even a good one.

Except, maybe, in two films.

The Searchers - A complex and reactionary Western, whose prejudices are there to see IMO. Nevertheless, it's still a classic of sorts, I suppose, and does contain that rare thing - a John Wayne character performance. He is good, at times very good, in it.

The Shootist - Now if ever there was a case for justifying Wayne as a 'proper' actor, then this movie is it. Despite the handicap of having Ron Howard as your co-star, The Duke is pretty effective in this, I think. He plays a gunslinger dying of cancer and as Wayne was dying from cancer in real life whilst making it, then you know its all the more poignant and moving.

These are the only films that I've seen of his which contain a bona-fide acting performance.

[ThisIsTheGirl]

John Wayne was a stick

I know I'm late, but I couldn't live with myself if I didn't respond - "The hell he was!"

"He was too you guys. I installed 2-way mirrors at his pad in Brentwood, and he come to the door in a dress"

OK, now I've got that out of the way, The Searchers and Rio Bravo are my favourite Wayne movies. I quite like True Grit too, and Jizzum - sorry Chisum. I would love to have seen him do a few more non-Western roles like Brannigan as well.

Funny you mention The Shootist - the first ten minutes or so of that movie is excellent, but for me, when Wayne turns up it all starts to go wrong - it just feels really corny. And it's sad how he has to pitch his horse up by a rock because he couldn't jump on and off like he did in his younger days. Just my opinion of course - and I do really like the first few minutes of the movie, odd as that sounds.

[The Vicar]

Tell me you've seen Repo Man, Doc?

Doc, you must check this one out.

[havocSchultz]

Charles Bronson would've kicked Wayne's ass in a heart-beat...then he would've taken his coat...

[TonyWilson]

John Wayne was a stick

I know I'm late, but I couldn't live with myself if I didn't respond - "The hell he was!"

"He was too you guys. I installed 2-way mirrors at his pad in Brentwood, and he come to the door in a dress"

OK, now I've got that out of the way, The Searchers and Rio Bravo are my favourite Wayne movies. I quite like True Grit too, and Jizzum - sorry Chisum. I would love to have seen him do a few more non-Western roles like Brannigan as well.

Funny you mention The Shootist - the first ten minutes or so of that movie is excellent, but for me, when Wayne turns up it all starts to go wrong - it just feels really corny. And it's sad how he has to pitch his horse up by a rock because he couldn't jump on and off like he did in his younger days. Just my opinion of course - and I do really like the first few minutes of the movie, odd as that sounds.

It took 2 fracking days for someone to get this...jeez, and you call yourselves Geeks?!?!?!?

Cheers Boob-lady

As for Wayne, well I confess to only having seen Brannigan (solid gold if only for the quite awesome lack of geographical reality in regards to London), Rio Bravo which I adore however it's Hawks that I'm really admiring. And True Grit....fun but not that memorable.

I often wonder about people like Wayne and Cary Grant, who while not being amazing actors were huge stars. The studio system really worked for those guys; they didn't give a shit about "typecasting". And that's what made such icons. Their onscreen persona was nearly always similar...that's how they made legends back then. Can you imagine Clooney playing only suave ladies man roles? Or Brad Pitt only playing matinee idol roles? They'd hate it and I think that's a very modern thing, well certainly a 70's and beyond thing. I'd like the moviestar machine to work a little more often to be honest.

[ThisIsTheGirl]

I often wonder about people like Wayne and Cary Grant, who while not being amazing actors were huge stars. The studio system really worked for those guys; they didn't give a shit about "typecasting". And that's what made such icons. Their onscreen persona was nearly always similar...that's how they made legends back then. Can you imagine Clooney playing only suave ladies man roles? Or Brad Pitt only playing matinee idol roles? They'd hate it and I think that's a very modern thing, well certainly a 70's and beyond thing. I'd like the moviestar machine to work a little more often to be honest.

That is an excellent point - I'd never thought of it that way before, but as soon as I read that, it made sense to me instantly - I reckon you could be spot-on there, TW....

Cheers Boob-lady

You're spot-on there too, sugar

[TonyWilson]

I often wonder about people like Wayne and Cary Grant, who while not being amazing actors were huge stars. The studio system really worked for those guys; they didn't give a shit about "typecasting". And that's what made such icons. Their onscreen persona was nearly always similar...that's how they made legends back then. Can you imagine Clooney playing only suave ladies man roles? Or Brad Pitt only playing matinee idol roles? They'd hate it and I think that's a very modern thing, well certainly a 70's and beyond thing. I'd like the moviestar machine to work a little more often to be honest.

That is an excellent point - I'd never thought of it that way before, but as soon as I read that, it made sense to me instantly - I reckon you could be spot-on there, TW....

Cheers Boob-lady

You're spot-on there too, sugar

Cheers, dude. I've been knocking that idea around for a while glad to see it makes sense.

BTW, your Prop Joe AV is just a red x.

[ThisIsTheGirl]

What what WHAT?

I'll fix it now. I'm sure it was displaying properly yesterday.....


ETA: I turned avs and sigs back on, and I can see it fine. No idea why it isn't working for you - have you tried hitting Refresh?

[MonsieurReynard]

The Searchers is one of my all time faves- the character is multi faceted, in a film that refuses to give us good guys and bad guys.

John Wayne himself is an icon without question. True, he wasn't the best actor ever, but then neither was Marilyn Monroe or Cary Grant.

I think we miss true stardom like that now.

[HollywoodBabylon]

I often wonder about people like Wayne and Cary Grant, who while not being amazing actors were huge stars. The studio system really worked for those guys; they didn't give a shit about "typecasting". And that's what made such icons. Their onscreen persona was nearly always similar...that's how they made legends back then. Can you imagine Clooney playing only suave ladies man roles? Or Brad Pitt only playing matinee idol roles? They'd hate it and I think that's a very modern thing, well certainly a 70's and beyond thing. I'd like the moviestar machine to work a little more often to be honest.

Cary Grant, for me, was a truly excellent actor. Deceptively simple on the surface, and yes, playing the persona of 'Cary Grant' for all it was worth, but he had absolutely fantastic timing as a comedian and undercurrents of depth and darkness in his dramatic roles (especially in the Hitchcock films). The test of his greatness (and I honestly think he is a great actor) is that I've never seen a bad performance by him - even when I've seen him in films that are bad themselves (not that there's been that many). Like you say, the Studio system was in full-flight back then, as was of course censorship and what type of movies, stories, themes, scenes etc were allowed to be shown. But there's no question in my mind that had Grant been a contemporary of the likes of De Niro, Pacino, Hoffman, Hackman etc in the modern cinema from the 60's onwards, he would've fared pretty favourably, just like Tracy would have or Laughton. But even taking into account the constrictions of the times he worked in movies, Grant pulled off some remarkably versatile performances. He's an incredibly underrated actor IMO.

[Peven]

i have to be honest, reading through a bunch of posts from Brits judging John Wayne's career makes me chuckle as i shake my head. despite my political differences with what he supported, i have to confess my American pride gets a little rankled seeing him referred to offhandedly as a "goddamn putz" and "f@g". no offense, but i consider those remarks fippant at best. while he was no great actor, he was a real presence onscreen, and an indelible part of the evolution of modern day action films. Never seen "Big Jake"? "The Cowboys"? the "yellow ribbon" Ford trilogy? whatever personal problems you might have with the guy, he is a film icon, an indisputable piece of American 20th century culture, and a part of the collective American identity. i wouldn't feel qualified to negatively dismiss someone as integral to the UK culture, wouldn't feel it was respectful of those who were born and live there either.






excuse me if i am coming across a little prickly, admittedly its not been the best of weeks for me, so maybe on a better day this thread wouldn't have struck such a nerve with me.

[MonsieurReynard]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, I love Cary Grant, Charade being the epitome of that era's pure cool.

But it wouldn't be cruel to say there are better actors. Like a lot of actors of that era, it was about persona. An immacuately crafted one, but a persona none the less.

[HollywoodBabylon]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, I love Cary Grant, Charade being the epitome of that era's pure cool.

But it wouldn't be cruel to say there are better actors. Like a lot of actors of that era, it was about persona. An immaculately crafted one, but a persona none the less.

Grant reminds me in some respects of Marilyn Monroe. Like him, behind the persona, lay a great, underestimated acting talent. Not only was she one of the best comediennes ever on screen but in Bus Stop and especially The Misfits a damn fine dramatic actress, too.

As well, of course, as being THE greatest female icon in the history of film.

[Doc Holliday]

Charles Bronson would've kicked Wayne's ass in a heart-beat...then he would've taken his coat...

Then the door to the closet would've closed behind him when he was hanging it up and he'd have been all like "Wahhh...closed spaces....wahhh....panicpanicpanic.....sweat sweat sweat......can't breath, can't fucking breath"

Pussy.

[havocSchultz]

Charles Bronson would've kicked Wayne's ass in a heart-beat...then he would've taken his coat...

Then the door to the closet would've closed behind him when he was hanging it up and he'd have been all like "Wahhh...closed spaces....wahhh....panicpanicpanic.....sweat sweat sweat......can't breath, can't fucking breath"

Pussy.

He still got the coat...

[Doc Holliday]

HAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh man...I can't come back from that. dude...you've got a "comedy gif" for just about every conceivable fucking situation there ever was.... I'm quitting whilst I'm behind (there's your next cue, right there....)

[havocSchultz]

I'm quitting whilst I'm behind

[happydude3]

The politics leave much to be desired, but 'putz' and 'f@g?' What are you, 13? Oh, right. Many of his movies are terrible. But The Searchers and Red River are two of the greatest movies ever made. Sometimes I get the feeling peoply roundly dismiss something because either A) They haven't actually seen it or B) They're trying to sound different. As far as the politics go, I guess it boils down to whether or not you can separate the art from the artist, but he's been in some great movies.

[happydude3]

Oh, and Cary Grant in Bringing up Baby makes me happier than fresh-baked apple pie.

[Vegeta]

John Wayne was teh awesome. I agree that he may not of been a great actor, but he's John Wayne... he didn't have to be 8)

[The Vicar]

No love for The Quiet Man?
Argueably Wayne's best film,
but even then I would hesitate to call him an actor.
Back then they had actors ( Spencer Tracy, fer instance) and personalities ( Wayne, Grant ).

That's Hollywood.

But if you need to decide whether La Duke was an actor, rent ( do not buy) The Conquerer.

I'll wait.

[ONeillSG1]

The Green Berets.

Best.John.Wayne.Movie.Evar!

[DennisMM]

Especially after Mr. Sulu dies and the sun sets in the east.

[ONeillSG1]

Hey, whenever the great George Takei dies in a film, the HEAVENS SHOULD TURN UPSIDE DOWN!!!!

His greatness should never BE KILLED OFF!!!

BLASPHEMER!!!

[monorail77]

Its John Wayne's centenary and Box Office Mojo has a series of interviews and articles. There's a good interview just posted with Robert Osborne, the host of Turner Classic Movies. I like this guy. Osborne talks about other stuff in the interview besides The Duke. His best quote comes when he is asked if he was in awe of the movie stars he met. Here's the quote:

I'm such a movie fan and I should have been in awe of these people but, when I first came to Hollywood, Lucille Ball was my boss—and she used to take a few of us out [on the town]. Because she was in television, I wasn't in awe of her—I was in awe of movie stars—and watching her [interact with movie stars] gave me an operating base that helped me not to be in awe. I walked in once on Lucille Ball and Marlene Dietrich was standing there scrambling eggs in the kitchen. All I remember was Marlene Dietrich, without even looking up, saying "close your mouth." Thanks to Lucy, I was always aware that these were basically ordinary people.

What a great story.

The full article is at Box Office Mojo

[Doc Holliday]

The politics leave much to be desired, but 'putz' and 'f@g?' What are you, 13? Oh, right. Many of his movies are terrible. But The Searchers and Red River are two of the greatest movies ever made. Sometimes I get the feeling peoply roundly dismiss something because either A) They haven't actually seen it or B) They're trying to sound different. As far as the politics go, I guess it boils down to whether or not you can separate the art from the artist, but he's been in some great movies.

Funny isn't it, how you can take someone more "high-brow" like Polanski or dozens of others and everyone trips over themselves to make excuses and demand that the art should be separated fromt he artist. And then the same sensibilities fall away when it comes to someone like Wayne, because so many of his films weren't of such a high standard.

I love the smell of hypocrisy first thing in the morning - it smells like.....defeat.

[TonyWilson]

"John Wayne was a stick" is a classic line from Repo Man, it's not like I ragged on him for his politics or anything. It's a funny line about a guy who loved his macho posturing. Chill.

[BuckyO'harre]

The release of True Grit has sparked discussion of John Wayne recently,and after reading how some of you regard him,I now feel the need to recommend some of his films that I think might bring new appreciation.I won't pretend he had great range,but if you have a tendency to ignore his work because of some "McLintock" type mental image,then please consider giving these a watch.

*Admittedly some of them have already been mentioned,but I started writing this in a different thread before I thought to see if The Duke had his own.*


Non Westerns
The Wings of Eagles
The Long Voyage Home
In Harm's Way
Brannigan

Westerns
Red River
3 Godfathers
The Shootist
Hondo
She Wore A Yellow Ribbon

Self-parody
North to Alaska

Classics you've probably seen,but if not- get to it!
The Quiet Man
The Searchers
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance


There are plenty more of his films that I enjoy,but I think these best showcase Wayne in a different light.

[minstrel]

The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance is a classic. Wayne deserves some respect just for that, if nothing else.

But The Shootist is damn good, too.

I've never seen The Quiet Man or The Searchers; I will have to correct that real soon.

[Peven]

i once worked a few years for a guy who had gone to acting school at Carnegie Melon, on scholarship. was in class with Holly Hunter. looked like a young Jack Nicholson, which probably hurt his possible acting future. he had gone out to cali and taken his shot, got a few little walk on parts here and there, like in the background in the bar scene in "Six Pack"- a lame Kenny Rogers movie, a commercial for the air force, even a speaking role as a thug in some b psycho movie that was trying to rip off the popularity of "Carrie", but gave up and came back to work for the family contracting business after a few years when he contracted some sort of life-threatening food poisoning or some shit and lost all he had. anyway, point is the dude knew acting and still loved it and we would sit around and talk about movies and actors all the time, and he would talk about how people who get lead roles in movies many times aren't among the best actors, per se, just that they have "it", charisma, and that audiences pay to see them, not some character. he said they were good performers, but not actors. the best real actors are the ones who make up the supporting roles, he would say. he would say there are movie stars and there are movie actors, and the two are rarely the same.when they are they are the true greats.

but he pointed out that when it came to action/adventure type movies it was almost always the case of an actor pretty much being the character people were used to see them play, and used Wayne as a prime example. people didn't want to pay to see Wayne as someone else, they payed to see Wayne the cowboy, Wayne the soldier, same guy just different clothes and setting. he loved Wayne, but said Wayne wasn't much of a true actor, just a great movie star, a great screen presence. the way my boss put it, most people don't get what real acting is. he pointed out that acting isn't the actor being convincingly angry or sad or happy or whatever, because most of us can do that, it is acting convincingly and accurately what the particular character they are playing would be like if THEY were mad or happy or in love, etc., and THAT takes real skill and talent. Wayne was pretty much one-note. he played a big tough guy. that's it, and that isn't being a real actor. look to people who play a range of character types if you want to talk about truly good or great actors. it doesn't mean Wayne isn't a legit Hollywood legend and was in some great movies that are really enjoyable, but he was no great actor, not even close.

[TheButcher]

Quint chats Rio Bravo, Howard Hawks, John Wayne and "Sammy" Fuller with Angie Dickinson and TCM's Ben Mankiewicz!

[TheButcher]

Film Nerd 2.0 gets a special guest programmer to introduce the boys to John Wayne
'Rio Bravo,' Big Bear, and a very special family trip are all featured this time

[TheButcher]

John Wayne: The Epic Collection, Anchorman 2 & Harold Ramis RIP

In announcement news today, Warner Home Video has set a new John Wayne DVD box set for release on 5/20, set to include 40 classic films starting Wayne from the Warner and Paramount catalogs. The 38-disc John Wayne: The Epic Collection box set ($149.98) includes: Big Stampede (1932), Ride Him Cowboy (1932), Haunted Gold (1932), Telegraph Trail (1933), Somewhere in Sonora (1933), Man from Monterey (1933), Allegheny Uprising (1939), Reunion in France (1942), Tall in the Saddle (1944), Back to Bataan (1945), They Were Expendable (1945), Without Reservations (1946), Tycoon (1947), Fort Apache (1948), The Three Godfathers (1948), She Wore a Yellow Ribbon (1949), Flying Leathernecks (1951), Operation Pacific (1951), Big Jim McLain (1952), Trouble Along the Way (1953), Blood Alley (1966), The Sea Chase (1955), The Searchers (1956), The Wings of Eagles (1957), Rio Bravo (1959), Hatari (1962), The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962), How the West Was Won (1962), Donovan’s Reef (1963), In Harm’s Way (1965), The Sons of Katie Elder (1965), El Dorado (1966), The Green Berets (1968), True Grit (1969), Chisum (1970), The Cowboys (1972), Cahill: U.S. Marshall (1973), The Train Robbers (1973), McQ (1974), and The Shootist (1976). You’ll also get “hours of special features include commentaries, documentaries, featurettes, vintage shorts and classic cartoons” plus a coffee table book and “special John Wayne collectibles include personal correspondence, script pages/covers, pages with Wayne’s notations and behind-the-scenes artifacts.”

[TheButcher]

McLintock! Read TCM's Home Video Review on this film

[TheButcher]

The lasting influence of Howard Hawks' Rio Bravo
Howard Hawks' Rio Bravo was a classic Western, and influenced a legion directors, including John Carpenter. Aliya looks back...

Remakes are part and parcel of the movie world, but it’s unusual for the same director to remake his own work. Rio Bravo is unique. Director Howard Hawks remade it, not once, but twice, and with the same lead actor every time – John Wayne. And after that, the film went on to influence a number of other directors, resulting in some brilliant movies that owe a great deal to this 1959 Western about a cowboy, a sidekick, and a drunkard who choose to make a stand in the name of justice.