PAN'S LABYRINTH (w/ Spoilage... Beware... BEWARE!)

New movies! Old movies! B-movies! Discuss discuss discuss!!!

With 10 being the best and 1 being the worst, how would you rate Pan's Labyrinth?

10
17
27%
9
17
27%
8
12
19%
7
7
11%
6
3
5%
5
2
3%
4
0
No votes
3
1
2%
2
1
2%
1
1
2%
I'm waiting for DVD / TV
3
5%
Me no likey the creepy animal-demon-thingies
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 64

Postby so sorry on Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:32 pm

Nice! (and probably a pricey night...)
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Postby Vegeta on Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:32 pm

silentbobafett wrote:Okay I'm so FUCKING scared by those pictures!

It ruined what I was going to say!

I was gonna tell all that I saw Pan's last night and though tit was truley wonderful! Different to what I thought! But great!

Why are there only 49 posts for a geek joy fest of a movie! :-)


Because Pan's hasn't gotten anywhere close to a wide release, which I have heard is the 12th of January. I am a little pissed at having to wait so fricking long. Hasn't this film been completed since like April or something? :?
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Postby Leckomaniac on Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:36 pm

This movie was spectacular. I have seen it twice already and it is definitely my movie of the year...

So long, Superman.
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Postby DinoDeLaurentiis on Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:36 pm

Interesting article over at a the CNN onna the Del Toro, eh?

CNN wrote:Dressed in a black from head to toe, with wire-rimmed glasses and a bushy but well-kept beard, del Toro is droll, articulate and profane. Consider his comparison (with expletives removed) of "Pan's Labyrinth," a defiantly R-rated fairy tale, with more innocuous children's fare.

"I do think there is far more an immoral position in creating a movie like 'Free Willy,' where I'm telling a kid, you know, 'If you swim next to a ... killer whale, she'll become your friend.' ... No! She will eat your ... guts and spit you out!"

Del Toro continues in a more reflective vein: "If my child watches my movies by accident, they will not try to think the world is a safe place, which it's not. Children should know the dangers of the world and not be neurotically isolated from them."

Del Toro said Ofelia is an amalgam of himself and his 10-year-old daughter. His movies frequently incorporate autobiographical elements and center on children whose parents are absent or dead. Although del Toro's parents are alive and he says he has a good relationship with them, he was raised largely by his conservative Catholic grandmother ("She was like Piper Laurie in 'Carrie,' " he said).

"I've spent the rest of my life recuperating from my first ten years," del Toro said. "It's a brutal time of learning, and I think that I tried to bring the violence that I felt -- moral, spiritual, and even physical -- into the movies."


I can a just a see a the Peven taking me to a the task now, but I find it interesting to note that a the Del Toro, he says he has a spent a the rest of a his a life recovering from a the horrors of a his first 10 years, anna yet, inna the same breath he says that a you gotta to show a the children the horrors of a the world inna'stead of a shielding them unna'til they mature enough a to handle it anna process it, eh?
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Postby Iconoclastica on Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:37 pm

so sorry wrote:Nice! (and probably a pricey night...)


nah, my friend has a gift certificate for two free tickets, which she offered to share with me, so (since it's the city and a bit more expensive) I think we're only forking out about three bucks each :-D
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Postby Nordling on Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:48 pm

It's an amazing film.

I'd love to go into open spoiler talk if we could, because I'd definitely like to discuss whether or not people consider some of the events "real".
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Postby The Vicar on Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:48 pm

If this doesn't open around here soon, violence will ensue.
Last edited by The Vicar on Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Fried Gold on Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:51 pm

Nordling wrote:It's an amazing film.

I'd love to go into open spoiler talk if we could, because I'd definitely like to discuss whether or not people consider some of the events "real".


I think we can discuss it anyway.

We just might have to really small writing for a time.
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Postby Leckomaniac on Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:55 pm

Nordling wrote:It's an amazing film.

I'd love to go into open spoiler talk if we could, because I'd definitely like to discuss whether or not people consider some of the events "real".



Perhaps this quote from the man himself can help begin the debate. Read the quote in tiny text!

"I find that the girl in the movie is not so much trying to escape reality, which is the way that it would normally go. She’s actually articulating the world through her fantasy. So the things in her fantasy would reflect things in the real world. It’s not really her way of coping with the real world, more like interpreting."

This was taken from his interiew with Capone.
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Postby Nordling on Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:58 pm

Okay.

I'm convinced that the fantasy aspects of the film aren't in her head. They're real. She uses the magic chalk to escape her room to get her brother. It's done off-screen for ambiguity, but that's for the people in the cheap seats who can't accept that the faun, the Pale Man, and the Frog aren't aspects of her imagination.

I also admire how Del Toro deals with the rebellious nature of childhood. People may take fault that after she is told not to eat anything in the Pale Man's lair, she does it anyway. First off, that's what kids DO. They test the boundaries. She constantly tests the boundaries of Captain Vidal, a man we KNOW to be a vicious killer. Why wouldn't she test these mystical creatures as well? She knows what happens when she gets caught. If she hasn't seen the violence coming from this man, she full well knows he's capable of it. Second, she's a creature of impulse, but she also learns from her mistakes, and also learns her moral range as well.

Truly a remarkable film, and I can't wait to see it again.
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Postby Leckomaniac on Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:04 pm

Nordling wrote:Okay.

I'm convinced that the fantasy aspects of the film aren't in her head. They're real. She uses the magic chalk to escape her room to get her brother. It's done off-screen for ambiguity, but that's for the people in the cheap seats who can't accept that the faun, the Pale Man, and the Frog aren't aspects of her imagination.

I also admire how Del Toro deals with the rebellious nature of childhood. People may take fault that after she is told not to eat anything in the Pale Man's lair, she does it anyway. First off, that's what kids DO. They test the boundaries. She constantly tests the boundaries of Captain Vidal, a man we KNOW to be a vicious killer. Why wouldn't she test these mystical creatures as well? She knows what happens when she gets caught. If she hasn't seen the violence coming from this man, she full well knows he's capable of it. Second, she's a creature of impulse, but she also learns from her mistakes, and also learns her moral range as well.

Truly a remarkable film, and I can't wait to see it again.


Del Toro discusses that food aspect in the interview with Capone as well...

I believe he remarks how if you pay attention you will notice that first she gets dirty and gets no supper that night and then her mother gets "sick" (for lack of a better word) and she does not eat again that night. So by that third night she is practically starving and her temptation gets the better of her.

As for whether it's "real" or not"

I like the ambiguity of it all. I don't really want to know if it is "real" or not. I think that really adds to the magic of the film. It also highlights the juxtaposition of the whole film. The ending is one of death and life. I think trying to explain it as real or otherwise sours the whole thing. But that is just me.
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Postby Nordling on Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:07 pm

Well, I'm gonna think it's real, until it's proved otherwise. It makes the ending that much happier.
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Postby Keepcoolbutcare on Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:13 pm

Nordling wrote:because I'd definitely like to discuss whether or not people consider some of the events "real".



what I found interesting is that both the Fawn and the Pale Man are not only both played by the same actor, but that The Fawn WAS the Pale Man. I didn't realize it at the time, but I read in some interview with Del Toro that the faeries that worked for the Fawn that the Pale Man ate didn't really die, as evidence to them being seen later in the film. I had just assumed that the Fawn had, you know, more little faerie friends...not so.

As for whether it was "real" or not, no offense, but I could care less. I was so enamored with Del Toro tying in fairy tale mythology with fascism that the question seems moot...
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Postby Leckomaniac on Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:20 pm

Keepcoolbutcare wrote:
Nordling wrote:because I'd definitely like to discuss whether or not people consider some of the events "real".



what I found interesting is that both the Fawn and the Pale Man are not only both played by the same actor, but that The Fawn WAS the Pale Man. I didn't realize it at the time, but I read in some interview with Del Toro that the faeries that worked for the Fawn that the Pale Man ate didn't really die, as evidence to them being seen later in the film. I had just assumed that the Fawn had, you know, more little faerie friends...not so.

As for whether it was "real" or not, no offense, but I could care less. I was so enamored with Del Toro tying in fairy tale mythology with fascism that the question seems moot...


The interview you are referring too KCBC is the one conducted by Capone and it is on the main site right here.

The quote you are referring to is right here (be careful it is long)

[size=34]GDT: Okay, I’m going to give you a couple of spoilers to those who haven’t seen the movie yet. So skip this if you haven’t. The idea for me was Pan the faun is the Pale Man and Pan is the frog.

C: I wouldn’t have guessed the frog, but okay.

GDT: Yes, the girl's tests aren’t really about the tests. If you watch the movie carefully, the fairies that the Pale Man eats all come back at the end. They’re all alive. So the idea is that the real test for the girl is not so much the test, but seeing how she learns from her mistakes and seeing how she is capable of following only her instincts and disobeying the rest of the influences. It’s about her being her own little person. And her decisions are morally tested, if you want. This is very anti-American. It’s not the regular Western structure. It’s very much fairy tale logic. For example, the frog under the roots of the tree is very much recurrent in fairy tales. I remember there’s a tale called “The Three Hairs of the Devil.â€
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Postby Iconoclastica on Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:56 am

Absolutely breathtaking film . . . I seriously feel justified in using the "you're dead inside if this film does not affect you" cliche. It was gorgeous and brutal in its storytelling as well as its rendering and visuals- so much that I didn't expect to be as amazing as it was. I particularly love the juxtoposition of the real and fantasy stories, as everyone has mentioned, as well as that of the story and the politics of the time (i.e. liberals/anarchists/republicans equating to a fantastical ideal, versus the "real world" Francoists/nationalists). It was undoubtedly one of the best films I've seen in the past few years.
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Postby magicmonkey on Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:03 am

Is it too late for you to vote in the zoner film of the year thread and attempt to wrestle the powah back from "Superman" and "The Departed"? I hope not.
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Postby Iconoclastica on Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:08 am

magicmonkey wrote:Is it too late for you to vote in the zoner film of the year thread and attempt to wrestle the powah back from "Superman" and "The Departed"? I hope not.


Yeeah, too late . . . I didn't vote for either of those, though I did already vote because I didn't even expect to have the opportunity to see any more of the movies on the list :oops: (I didn't even have any right going tonight - it's now 2am and I still have a couple of hours of homework to do and class in 6 hours) . . . :sigh:, sorry, man.
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Postby silentbobafett on Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:20 am

DId superman win film of the year!?!


ALRIGHT THIS IS THE BEST NEWS EVER!!!!!

*walks off down the street with a swagger*


:-)
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Postby mushookie on Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:45 pm

I'm extremely excited about this movie and I can't wait 'till it comes to my city. It seems like LOTR and Tim Burton had sex, had a baby, and that baby vomited up this thing!
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Postby MasterWhedon on Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:59 pm

I'm checking this out over the weekend with a buddy. Pretty pumped for it.
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Postby Brocktune on Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:04 pm

you fuckers.

i gotta wait until the 12th before it opens down here.

my boss has a dvd of the french version that he gave me, but i refuse to watch it until i have seen it in the theater next week.
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PAN'S LABYRINTH

Postby bastard_robo on Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:34 am

Saw this new years day. Loved it! No one makes movies like this anymore. The dark fantasy. I miss stuff like this. Legend, Dark Crystal, only with more gore!! Fucking GREAT!

Though, i wont name it my favorite del toro movie. That honor belongs to Hellboy, a movie i hold very near and dear.
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Postby Nordling on Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:58 am

I think PAN'S is a masterpiece. Can't wait to see it again.
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Postby Eunuch Provocateur on Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:32 am

No one likes magical realism in the Inland Empire.

It's true.

Oh, and no one likes a movie where they have to READ the entire time.

Pan's Labyrinth was sold out during it's 10 PM showing at the Ontario Mills tonight. FUCKING PACKED sold out type of sold out.

And almost the whole damn audience didn't know what they had coming.

Great movie, great ending, great all around town.
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Postby MasterWhedon on Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:02 pm

Saw this over the weekend and was really, genuinely impressed. I suppose I side with those who were expecting a bit more fantasy, but I found the "real world" elements to be equally engaging. Others have expressed why the movie is as good as it is, so I don't really feel the need to go into that. I would, however, like to discuss my chief criticism of the movie: the ending.

SPOILER WARNING! PLEASE DO NOT READ UNTIL YOU'VE SEEN THE FILM!





All throughout the movie, I was pretty certain the fantastical elements of the film were meant to be Ofelia's daydreams, her escape from the harsh reality she lived in. I suspected as much... but I didn't want to be told it was so.

The Captain's POV of Ofelia talking to no one (where she sees the faun) at the end of the film shouldn't have been used, IMO. I'd have rather seen the faun slink back into the shadows and THEN have the Captain appear, rather than having the film tell you definitively that she was simply imagining all of this. I would've preferred the ending had kept the ambiguous balance of the rest of the film, where you can read into it what you may. The moment when Mercedes and the troops enter her bedroom and discover the chalk outline of the door on her wall is the PERFECT example of how to do this. They see it as one thing, but we know it as something more. Ultimately, explaining these things as her imagination makes more sense, but I want to belive in the fantastical.






END SPOILERS

A really great experience overall. I highly recommend it to anyone who's on the fence. 9/10
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Postby John-Locke on Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:30 pm

I just realised that I haven't chimed in on this thread, I think I gave it an 8, it would have been higher had I not had so many problems with characters in the film acting totally ALF in places.

SPOILERS!

Seeing as how a doctor is risking his life to save you by sneaking out and giving you medicine, you'd think these people would have the foresight to make sure that they didn't just leave the medicine lying idly by a fire in the woods.

Seeing as how the Captain asks suspiciously if the key he is given to the store room is the only copy in existance, you'd think that the house keeper risking her life by giving the other key to the freedom fighters could make it clear that once they use the key they have to take the lock with them so it looks like it's simply been broken off.

Seeing as how the house keeper has an opportunity to kill the Captain when she escapes from her torture, why in the hell does she only slash him across the shoulder and cut open his cheek, okay she kills him later but at the cost of the girl.

To quote Bobby DeNiro in Cop Land

"You Had Your Chance and you BLEW IT!"

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The little girl leaving the chalk on the table and eating the grapes was pretty stupid too, I could forgive the film for just these little things because it's a child but when I look at all these things together I come to the conclusion that Del Toro relys too heavily on setting things up through stupidity rather than through ingenuity.

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Postby MasterWhedon on Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:42 pm

MINOR SPOILERS

I too thought Ofelia eating the grapes was a bit much. There was nothing done to really sell how either a) she was sooooo hungry that she couldn't help herself or b) that she looooooooves grapes so much she can't help herself. Looking back, I remember her being sent to bed without her dinner the night before that incident, but they didn't play up her stomach grumbling or anything. Needed a little more, a la Abu grabbing the massive jewel in Aladdin's Cave of Wonders.
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Postby Apple Scruff on Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:39 am

I'm very sorry to say I saw this and did not like it. All of my complaints about the film are things that I'm sure Del Toro and crew did intentionally, but I just felt a little raped while watching this movie.

I can handle violence and darkness in a profound or at least funny movie. This was neither (though going into it I wouldn't have expected it to be profound and certainly not funny). There is very obtrusive sound design and extreme bodily harm in this film. I don't appreciate either of these things, but I can sit through it hoping for an awe-inspiring end. This didn't have a good ending.

It has the worst elements of an adult movie and the worst elements of a fairy tale put into one bad adult fairy tale.

Having said that I can totally understand why someone would like it...my brain just went into fetal position early on.
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Postby DaleTremont on Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:49 am

Apple Scruff wrote:I'm very sorry to say I saw this and did not like it. All of my complaints about the film are things that I'm sure Del Toro and crew did intentionally, but I just felt a little raped while watching this movie.

I can handle violence and darkness in a profound or at least funny movie. This was neither (though going into it I wouldn't have expected it to be profound and certainly not funny). There is very obtrusive sound design and extreme bodily harm in this film. I don't appreciate either of these things, but I can sit through it hoping for an awe-inspiring end. This didn't have a good ending.

It has the worst elements of an adult movie and the worst elements of a fairy tale put into one bad adult fairy tale.

Having said that I can totally understand why someone would like it...my brain just went into fetal position early on.


"Extreme bodily harm"? Well, it's a movie, not the warnings label on a bottle of pills. If anything, Del Toro took the conventions of dark fantasy and truly made it dark. Fairy tales have always been prettified nightmares. This felt like a real fairy tale to me.
And the ending- it was like watching Edward Scissorhands all over again. That song, man. That song rivals anything Danny Elfman has done.
But, uhhh...to each his own.
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Postby MonkeyM666 on Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:00 am

One of the few problems that I had with this film was that 90% of the fantasy world was shown in the advertising material (web site, trailers, and posters). This frustrates me with comedy's let alone other world/war movies.

It's made well, the production values are great (the creatures especially) I just didn't care what the little girl did. It was a small forest with a small battalion of troops against a small rebel force. The fact that this little girl was going into other worlds teased me with what it didn't show. I just wanted to be emersed more in the fantasy and less with the rebels.

Saying all of that I did really like the ending, sweetly poetic.
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Postby Brocktune on Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:47 pm

finally saw it this weekend.

went down to hillcrest on friday (opening) night to see it. got there about 15 minutes early.
sold. out.

FUCK!

i just drove 25 miles to see this fuckin thing and its sold the fuck out!?!?
lame.

but i was smart, and thought that i would get the drop on all of those fuckers by buying my tickets for saturday night instead.

saturday night, tickets in hand, get to the theater 40 minutes early.
we were in the back of the fucking line.

it kills me. there are a million movies that come out, that i would kill to have the attendance be even close to sold out. yet they are not. but somehow, the desire to see this film must be overwhelming, as i have never ever seen a crowd this size at this theater. not even for advance screenings and shit. but after viewing the film, i can see why.

beautiful, poetic, enchanting, alarming, disgusting, tragic, and haunting. to sum it up in one word, amazing. now, im not going to go so far as to drop the unnecessary adjectives like "10/10" or "masterpiece". i dont feel the film deserves those particular accolades. im sort of in JL's camp in feeling that while superlative, Pan's is still a little flawed. yet, it is still head and shoulders above anything (new) i have seen in a theater in a long time. even borat!
you know, even though the two probably dont warrant direct comparison, all i could think after the movie was over was, m. night shamalyan, eat your fucking heart out. if they were to offer a college course on how to make a sort of "fairy tale for adults", Pan's would certainly be the example of how to do it correctly, whereas Lady in the Water would be the textbook example of how to fuck it up. i was like, so it is possible to make a fairy tale, and still have it hold water for anyone with half a brain in their head, eh? excellent.

the acting was fantastic. especially Ivana Baquero. shit, between her and Tideland's Jodelle Ferland, i believe i may have seen two of the finest performances to be given by children ever, in the last 3 or 4 months. at no point is baquero unbelievable, or over the top. she carries the entire movie virtually flawlessly. and how about fauno? i dont remember the last time there was a character that inspired such feelings in me that my jaw hung agape every second he was on screen.
i have read, and heard that more people were expecting a heavier emphasis on the fantasy world, and more focus, and time spent there. now, my biggest complaint would probably be along the same lines. i would have loved to see more of that fantasy land. a lot more. but then again, that probably would have made it a whole different movie. so i was satisfied with the amount that we did get.
one thing is for sure, i have never been a fan of del toro. in fact, this is the first of his films that i have seen. but i will definitely be checking out more, now that i know what he is capable of.
i have also heard people complain about the subtitles. all i can say to the subtitle haters, is get stuffed. you couldnt possibly have a more appropriate voice for any of the characters. fauno in particular. imo, dubbing would reduce the seriousness, and believability of the entire movie, making it come across far sillier than would ever be intended. plus the castillian is delivered with such Punky Power, such Punky Power, that any english dubbing would be a big mistake.
it may only be january, and it may not be perfect, but you will find very few, if any films this year that will even remotely come as close as Pan's Labyrinth. please, go see this fucking movie! 8.5/10
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Postby buster00 on Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:42 pm

Brocktune wrote:
went down to hillcrest on friday (opening) night to see it. got there about 15 minutes early.
sold. out.



They thought they were paying to see Man's Labyrinth.
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Postby Brocktune on Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:02 pm

buster00 wrote:
Brocktune wrote:
went down to hillcrest on friday (opening) night to see it. got there about 15 minutes early.
sold. out.



They thought they were paying to see Man's Labyrinth.


heh.

well, i suppose that could explain why the only other movie that was sold out was "The Queen". :wink:
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Postby underscore on Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:17 am

This movie was so uninteresting. The characters were one dimensional and the performances absolutely hollow. Plus considering the simplified screenplay and minimalist dialogue, the movie actually felt too long for what it was. All visual candy and not much more. It seemed like it was just going in circles to make the same redundant point over and over again. The general is bad. The general is bad. The general kills people. The general kills people because he's bad. Yawn. The general kills the girl because he is bad. The general gets killed because he is bad.

Things I liked: The faun, the lullaby

Things I didn't like: Everything else.
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Postby Dark Knight on Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:30 am

did I see the same movie as you?
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Postby Yack Backer on Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:03 am

Ivana Baquero is what ties this movie together. Her performance was fantastic. She was so good, she could have pulled off Anakin in TPM! But seriously, PAN'S required that character to be portrayed correctly, otherwise the movie would never have worked. Great job!
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Postby Retardo_Montalban on Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:52 am

Holy crap, that movie made me cry. There's just something about an innocent child using a fictionaly fantasy world as a coping mechanism in order to deal with the nightmarish reality of our world that just pierces my heart.

I can only say that I was dissapointed in Ol' saggy skin, no eyes. I mean, jeez, what a puss. Maybe you should put your eyes on something a little more stable, so you don't catch vertigo and stumble all over the room like my alchoholic uncle and then maybe you'll catch the children that you're trying to eat. That's all the negative I have to say.

Hot damn, that Mercedes is badass though. I totally got a hard on whenever she tucked that razor sharp blade into her apron. She was all Witchy wild, like Carmen.

Anybody who's looking to write up a super evil villain, take notes on that Captain. Totally enigmatic, with the tiniest bit of back story to show the man's basic drive. None of this, sympathy for the evil sociopath that's so popular these days. Just pure evil under a greasy head of hair. The scariest shit about having some guy beat your nose in, is not knowing why he's doing it. What a grade A jerk.

This movie dove right into the pool without leaving a splash. 10/10
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Postby sars on Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:22 pm

Fucking brilliant! Definitely my favorite movie of 2006. 10/10
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Postby Jesus Christ on Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:16 pm

The movie is great…
Spoilers
But I’m kind of surprised they showed the onscreen murder of a child.
You know that old Hitchcock axiom of never showing a child’s death on camera. I’m not a prude or anything, it’s just I haven’t seen that in a while.
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Postby RogueScribner on Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:21 pm

I knew practically nothing about this movie before seeing it. I saw some commercials here and there and I remember reading some AICN articles way back when. It looked interesting, but I didn't really have any expectations going in.

The way the movie began to unfold, I figured we were in for a darker take on Alice in Wonderland or something. Hell, the dress Ofelia wore when she went to the tree definitely evoked that. But it didn't really pan out. This movie is about 1/4 fantasy and 3/4 real world atrocities. I would have liked more of a balance. The "tests" Ofelia endured seemed a little easy and, other than at the end, I never sensed that she was ever in any real danger.

It's not a bad movie, but I think it had the potential to be something great and it just wasn't. There's a big chunk of the film towards the end where Ofelia kinda drops out of the action. I think we should have stuck with her as much as possible because it's her unique POV that puts the events of the film in context.

Maybe I need to see it again to fully comprehend it, but as it stands now, it was a good, not great film. The fantasy aspects were too few and far between and I don't feel they connected to the real world stuff enough. Maybe based on the commercials I was expecting more fairy tale stuff than we got. And the ending . . . wow. I didn't exactly leave the theater feeling good. Many fairy tales involve death and heartache, but they end on a bit of a happy. I think the message this movie is trying to convey is that life sucks and then you die. Hopefully you left your mark on the world. Not exactly a life affirming notion, you know?

The Fisher King is an example of a good mix of fantasy with reality and where the fantasy had profound ties and effects on reality. And it ended on a happy. The adult nature of the film didn't bother me. I just didn't find enough magic in this fairy tale.


7/10
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Postby Leckomaniac on Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:30 pm

RogueScribner wrote:I knew practically nothing about this movie before seeing it. I saw some commercials here and there and I remember reading some AICN articles way back when. It looked interesting, but I didn't really have any expectations going in.

The way the movie began to unfold, I figured we were in for a darker take on Alice in Wonderland or something. Hell, the dress Ofelia wore when she went to the tree definitely evoked that. But it didn't really pan out. This movie is about 1/4 fantasy and 3/4 real world atrocities. I would have liked more of a balance. The "tests" Ofelia endured seemed a little easy and, other than at the end, I never sensed that she was ever in any real danger.

It's not a bad movie, but I think it had the potential to be something great and it just wasn't. There's a big chunk of the film towards the end where Ofelia kinda drops out of the action. I think we should have stuck with her as much as possible because it's her unique POV that puts the events of the film in context.

Maybe I need to see it again to fully comprehend it, but as it stands now, it was a good, not great film. The fantasy aspects were too few and far between and I don't feel they connected to the real world stuff enough. Maybe based on the commercials I was expecting more fairy tale stuff than we got. And the ending . . . wow. I didn't exactly leave the theater feeling good. Many fairy tales involve death and heartache, but they end on a bit of a happy. I think the message this movie is trying to convey is that life sucks and then you die. Hopefully you left your mark on the world. Not exactly a life affirming notion, you know?

The Fisher King is an example of a good mix of fantasy with reality and where the fantasy had profound ties and effects on reality. And it ended on a happy. The adult nature of the film didn't bother me. I just didn't find enough magic in this fairy tale.


7/10


SPOILERS!

See I didn't leave the theatre feeling all that sad. I mean the real world aspects are sad, but the scene where she takes her place on the throne was so bright...I teared up out of joy. It was such an uplifting scene after all she had been through.

Its only sad when you ignore the fantasy aspects and take in only the real life aspects. The fantasy makes it uplifting. The return of the pixies...the return of her mother. I thought the balance was perfect personally.
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Postby Iconoclastica on Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:33 pm

WARNING- LOTS AND LOTS OF MAJOR SPOILERS!!!!

RogueScribner wrote:And the ending . . . wow. I didn't exactly leave the theater feeling good. Many fairy tales involve death and heartache, but they end on a bit of a happy. I think the message this movie is trying to convey is that life sucks and then you die. Hopefully you left your mark on the world. Not exactly a life affirming notion, you know?


See, I disagree . . . I think that Ophelia's death was necessary- it was her final test, as the fairy tale side of things explained, ultimate self sacrifice being the most worthy test imaginable, especially for a child. And of course, in the real world, her efforts were far from fruitless- they resulted in the death of her step father and the rescuing of the baby boy (which left the film with something of a positive note, as well as a bit of a hopeful conclusion- essentially a sort of karma where sometimes, evil people get what is coming to them. And although his mother died, at least he will have a good upbringing, rather than the treacherous one that almost surpassed). Just my opinion, though . . . I do see where you're coming from.
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Postby Retardo_Montalban on Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:53 pm

RogueScribner wrote:I knew practically nothing about this movie before seeing it. I saw some commercials here and there and I remember reading some AICN articles way back when. It looked interesting, but I didn't really have any expectations going in.

The way the movie began to unfold, I figured we were in for a darker take on Alice in Wonderland or something. Hell, the dress Ofelia wore when she went to the tree definitely evoked that. But it didn't really pan out. This movie is about 1/4 fantasy and 3/4 real world atrocities. I would have liked more of a balance. The "tests" Ofelia endured seemed a little easy and, other than at the end, I never sensed that she was ever in any real danger.

It's not a bad movie, but I think it had the potential to be something great and it just wasn't. There's a big chunk of the film towards the end where Ofelia kinda drops out of the action. I think we should have stuck with her as much as possible because it's her unique POV that puts the events of the film in context.

Maybe I need to see it again to fully comprehend it, but as it stands now, it was a good, not great film. The fantasy aspects were too few and far between and I don't feel they connected to the real world stuff enough. Maybe based on the commercials I was expecting more fairy tale stuff than we got. And the ending . . . wow. I didn't exactly leave the theater feeling good. Many fairy tales involve death and heartache, but they end on a bit of a happy. I think the message this movie is trying to convey is that life sucks and then you die. Hopefully you left your mark on the world. Not exactly a life affirming notion, you know?

The Fisher King is an example of a good mix of fantasy with reality and where the fantasy had profound ties and effects on reality. And it ended on a happy. The adult nature of the film didn't bother me. I just didn't find enough magic in this fairy tale.


7/10


Those are some good reasons to be dissapointed in this movie. It's not an endearing, life is great fantasy film. The fantasy element is spaced out, but I think that any more pixie dust and the harsh reality that this girl faces would lose substance. The meat of the story for me, is the cottage in the spanish country side. The hocus pocus is a means to break up the harsh reality that the girl faces and bring some levity to the situation.

The way I felt about this movie is the same way I felt when I watched Grave of the Fireflies. You know what's going to happen, it shows you at the very beginning. The ending isn't important. The important part is witnessing the hope and fight that this girl gives. She is in some dire circumstances, but through it all she deals, perseveres and doesn't succumb. For most of the people on this Earth, life does suck and everybody will die. That little girl took her shitty life and tried her damndest to preserve some semblance of hope and that is inspiring.
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Postby Iconoclastica on Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:59 pm

Damn did you ever hit the nail on the head, Retardo
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Postby Lady Sheridan on Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:43 am

Follow me into spoiler land and debate with me...

I see the ending as fairly unambigious--although I CAN see it as happy, as del Toro does, I think the last scene where she's talking to thin air deliberately strips away the fantasy. (Although you could argue that the evil stepfather just doesn't see this magical and good creature.)

But here's the thing...if it is all in Ofelia's head, how do you explain the scene with the mandrake? She really puts it there and the stepdad really does find it. Where did she get it? When he throws it in the fire, the mother gets worse. Was this just coincidence or what?
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Postby RogueScribner on Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:53 am

Leckomaniac wrote:
RogueScribner wrote:I knew practically nothing about this movie before seeing it. I saw some commercials here and there and I remember reading some AICN articles way back when. It looked interesting, but I didn't really have any expectations going in.

The way the movie began to unfold, I figured we were in for a darker take on Alice in Wonderland or something. Hell, the dress Ofelia wore when she went to the tree definitely evoked that. But it didn't really pan out. This movie is about 1/4 fantasy and 3/4 real world atrocities. I would have liked more of a balance. The "tests" Ofelia endured seemed a little easy and, other than at the end, I never sensed that she was ever in any real danger.

It's not a bad movie, but I think it had the potential to be something great and it just wasn't. There's a big chunk of the film towards the end where Ofelia kinda drops out of the action. I think we should have stuck with her as much as possible because it's her unique POV that puts the events of the film in context.

Maybe I need to see it again to fully comprehend it, but as it stands now, it was a good, not great film. The fantasy aspects were too few and far between and I don't feel they connected to the real world stuff enough. Maybe based on the commercials I was expecting more fairy tale stuff than we got. And the ending . . . wow. I didn't exactly leave the theater feeling good. Many fairy tales involve death and heartache, but they end on a bit of a happy. I think the message this movie is trying to convey is that life sucks and then you die. Hopefully you left your mark on the world. Not exactly a life affirming notion, you know?

The Fisher King is an example of a good mix of fantasy with reality and where the fantasy had profound ties and effects on reality. And it ended on a happy. The adult nature of the film didn't bother me. I just didn't find enough magic in this fairy tale.


7/10


SPOILERS!

See I didn't leave the theatre feeling all that sad. I mean the real world aspects are sad, but the scene where she takes her place on the throne was so bright...I teared up out of joy. It was such an uplifting scene after all she had been through.

Its only sad when you ignore the fantasy aspects and take in only the real life aspects. The fantasy makes it uplifting. The return of the pixies...the return of her mother. I thought the balance was perfect personally.


Yeah, and that would have been all well and good, except they cut back to the little girl's dead body with the housekeeper crying over her just to drum it home that, yep, she's dead! Sorry, but the reality trumped the fantasy in that scenario. If the movie ended on the fantasy element, maybe I would have felt different. But it ended with a dead little girl and a flower blooming on a supposedly dead tree. So yeah, she left her mark, but it's still a downer, IMO.
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Postby Retardo_Montalban on Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:55 am

Lady Sheridan wrote:Follow me into spoiler land and debate with me...

I see the ending as fairly unambigious--although I CAN see it as happy, as del Toro does, I think the last scene where she's talking to thin air deliberately strips away the fantasy. (Although you could argue that the evil stepfather just doesn't see this magical and good creature.)

But here's the thing...if it is all in Ofelia's head, how do you explain the scene with the mandrake? She really puts it there and the stepdad really does find it. Where did she get it? When he throws it in the fire, the mother gets worse. Was this just coincidence or what?



Well the mandrake isn't anything special. Ofelia could have easily found it anywhere and made believe the whole medicinal aspect of it (even though the mandrake has anaesthetic properties). The root looks like a baby, and the association that Ofelia makes with milk during that Mercede's milking the cow scene could leave her to believe that baby root in milk = mom saved. Alot of the complication occuring with Ofelia's mother are suggested to be stress related. She rested, so she got better and when she got up and ornery, her stress levels rose and she miscarried. Ofelia had to believe it was the burning of the mandrake that caused her mother's death and not her. It was really the Captain's fualt though. He should have let Ofelia play under her momma's bed.
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Postby Leckomaniac on Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:59 am

RogueScribner wrote:Yeah, and that would have been all well and good, except they cut back to the little girl's dead body with the housekeeper crying over her just to drum it home that, yep, she's dead! Sorry, but the reality trumped the fantasy in that scenario. If the movie ended on the fantasy element, maybe I would have felt different. But it ended with a dead little girl and a flower blooming on a supposedly dead tree. So yeah, she left her mark, but it's still a downer, IMO.


But it is only through her death that she is able to reach that place. Her death in reality is necessary for her to take her place at the throne. Her sacrafice...in the darkest of times...even when it would have meant that she wouldn't be able to take her throne (or so she thought)...is cause for celebration. Its a story about the beauty of innocence. Its about shining a light in the darkest of corners. She earned her paradise by suffering her hell and still believing in life. Come on man. That beautiful!
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Postby RogueScribner on Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:00 am

Lady Sheridan wrote:Follow me into spoiler land and debate with me...

I see the ending as fairly unambigious--although I CAN see it as happy, as del Toro does, I think the last scene where she's talking to thin air deliberately strips away the fantasy. (Although you could argue that the evil stepfather just doesn't see this magical and good creature.)

But here's the thing...if it is all in Ofelia's head, how do you explain the scene with the mandrake? She really puts it there and the stepdad really does find it. Where did she get it? When he throws it in the fire, the mother gets worse. Was this just coincidence or what?


That's how I interpretted the shot of Ofelia speaking to no one, too, but you do raise a good point about the mother. She was getting better before she got worse and the doctor couldn't even explain it. Maybe the mandrake and milk really is medicinal? :P
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Postby RogueScribner on Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:06 am

Leckomaniac wrote:
RogueScribner wrote:Yeah, and that would have been all well and good, except they cut back to the little girl's dead body with the housekeeper crying over her just to drum it home that, yep, she's dead! Sorry, but the reality trumped the fantasy in that scenario. If the movie ended on the fantasy element, maybe I would have felt different. But it ended with a dead little girl and a flower blooming on a supposedly dead tree. So yeah, she left her mark, but it's still a downer, IMO.


But it is only through her death that she is able to reach that place. Her death in reality is necessary for her to take her place at the throne. Her sacrafice...in the darkest of times...even when it would have meant that she wouldn't be able to take her throne (or so she thought)...is cause for celebration. Its a story about the beauty of innocence. Its about shining a light in the darkest of corners. She earned her paradise by suffering her hell and still believing in life. Come on man. That beautiful!


I guess.

I suppose it speaks to the POV of the moviewatcher. To me, it was a horrible event that was bitter-sweet in the best light. If the movie ended in the fantasy, maybe I would felt different, but it ended in the cold hard reality of the world in this world Ofelia was dead. It was just one more horror to add to the long list of them in the movie. I admire Ofelia. I mourn Ofelia.
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