John-Locke wrote:On a side note I found the hyped up naked fight to be rather disappointing, not even nearly as brutal as I was led to believe, it lacked both kinetic energy and a sense of urgency, I also found it lacking (not devoid) in tension.
tapehead wrote:Zarles wrote: I got the whole Russian mob/sex slave thing, but what exactly happened at the end? Did Nikolai and Kirill whack Semyon and take over? There was a lot I missed near the end thanks to the brain-dead jackasses I was fortunate enough to share a theater with, so please - fill me in.
*Whole end of movie Spoilers*
There was a brief scene, I think just after we find out that Nikolai/Viggo was a FSB spy, involving Seymon and Kirill. Nikolai has already suggested to the English Agent that Seymon can be arrested for statutory rape if they can prove with DNA that the baby (Christine?) was his - because,as we have heard in the voice-over from the pregnant prostitute's diary, Seymon raped her, and she was only fourteen. In that scene With Seymon and Kirill in the kitchen, Seymon has had a blood sample taken and is muttering about Aids and drug users. That's why he sends Kirill to the Hospital to get the baby. They save the baby, Seymon gets put away, and Nikolai is second in command in London's Russian Mafia, with Kirill as his puppet - and he doesn't blow his cover, even with Anna.
tapehead wrote:Abjection maybe? or 'abject horror'? (it's a little 'psychoanalytic', I know)
You never did get to delving.
Pacino86845 wrote:(down shaky cam, down!!! None of that bullshit here...)
Keepcoolbutcare wrote:I hadn't read the tiny text yet, didn't know ya'll were going on about Nikolai's past, which I thought was made pretty clear.
tapehead wrote:Nice review Dee - the accents weren't always quite right? which cast member seemed to get it wrong?
seppukudkurosawa wrote:Any Arsenal fans here slightly irked that Croney completely goofed their colours in that scene where Stepan gets spoilered after the Arsenal VS Chelsea match?
Dee E. Goppstober wrote:seppukudkurosawa wrote:Any Arsenal fans here slightly irked that Croney completely goofed their colours in that scene where Stepan gets spoilered after the Arsenal VS Chelsea match?
Hahaha -yes, you're right- they were orange??? Stupid mistake to make, really. I wonder if Nick Hornby has reviewed this film...
Observer wrote:David Cronenberg's excellent Eastern Promises opened the LFF and, set among the Russian mafia, it's a fine addition to classic London underworld films. One detail bothered me greatly, though. In a murder scene set outside Chelsea football club after a match with Arsenal, one Gunners fan has his throat slit through his football scarf. However, the scarf is clearly not an Arsenal one, wasting an opportunity for what could have been a classic London movie moment. 'I know,' sighed Cronenberg when I broached the issue with him. 'I wish I could have had the scarves more accurate. But my lawyers and producers said the club would never agree to have their merchandise used in this way, so I had to run with it, even though I'm not happy with that scene because of it.' He added: 'I'm an Arsenal fan myself - I don't really like football but over the last few years I've been filming in London I fell in love with the way they play.'
Dee E. Goppstober wrote:my real name is Anastasia Pawlowna and I hold a side-job as subjugated peroxide hooker
DaleTremont wrote:Dee E. Goppstober wrote:my real name is Anastasia Pawlowna and I hold a side-job as subjugated peroxide hooker
You heard it here first, folks.
And I hear you about the representation of cultures thing. Intellectually, I don't have a problem with people taking on roles that aren't of their own ethnicity, but then I always feel a smidge of irritation watching something like "Memoirs of a Geisha" where most of the main roles are played by non-Japanese actors.
Dee E. Goppstober wrote:DaleTremont wrote:Dee E. Goppstober wrote:my real name is Anastasia Pawlowna and I hold a side-job as subjugated peroxide hooker
You heard it here first, folks.
And I hear you about the representation of cultures thing. Intellectually, I don't have a problem with people taking on roles that aren't of their own ethnicity, but then I always feel a smidge of irritation watching something like "Memoirs of a Geisha" where most of the main roles are played by non-Japanese actors.
Ah well- I guess that has to be the fate of us cultural bastards... Soooo -what about you then: Paprika - one-night geesha girl with an opium habit?
Dee E. Goppstober wrote:
But no matter - it was a great film. And - join our ranks! - do you have a side job too?
Lady Sheridan wrote:AND it convinced me Nikolai's tattoo'd background is genuine and that he was recruited out of prison by FSB.
Keepcoolbutcare wrote:Lady Sheridan wrote:AND it convinced me Nikolai's tattoo'd background is genuine and that he was recruited out of prison by FSB.
whoa, what makes you say that?
i had the extras on as background noise while I was doing stuff around the house, so I wasn't really paying attention to it, but was it explicitly said that he was indeed a convict, then recruited?
even if it was stated, I still don't buy it - why would someone who has been imprisoned three times (according to the tats), who obviously hadn't ratted on anybody, why would he suddenly turn do-gooder? And then what of the taunting anecdote related by one of the vor v zakone, about his father being a KGB ratfinkovich, and his mother being a whore? (if true, it would explain why he's made it his life to go after "the organization", why he helps, in the process possibly blowing his cover, that one girl who he was forced to fuck get out of the brothel.) And why would the Scotland Yard detective bow to a mere undercover operative and not some uber-FSB-badass?
if, by the end, Nikolai is in charge of the London operation, how could anybody in their right mind trust the running of that to someone of the background you purport he had?
sure, the notion that he was FSB his whole life raises some questions as well, but not as many, and it kinda makes more thematic plausibility...least to me.
tapehead wrote:No doubt - I guess I just presumed that was Kirill's intent, as he knew by then that Nikolai was into Anna. He was trying to fuck with Nikolai's head and get off on it by watching at the same time. As important though to us was her similarity to Tatiana, from the beginning of the film.
Keepcoolbutcare wrote:if it's so damn difficult and gosh darn near impossible to forge the tats 'cuz the Russian underworld is, at least the way ya'll are making it out to be, operating at a damn near mythic level of clandestine secrecy (The Freemasons, Illuminati and Skull & Bones combined apparently have nothing on those cagey Russians!)...
then how come there's a book about the subject?
and how come Viggo was able to find out anything about it in the first place?
Someone, in fact, multiple someones, have blabbed, have tattled, have ratted...but it's cute, this fetishizing of the foreign other.
and I love how ya'll are inventing all of these intricate rationals, and yet are convinced at the same time it's the most plausible explanation to boot.
Lady Sheridan wrote:
Viggo Mortensen has, if anything, given a clue as to what *he* thinks the character is. Those prayer/worry beads he flips around? They're made out of melted prison plastic. Mortensen got them from God knows where, but Nikolai probably got them off Ebay to add authenticity.
tapehead wrote:Lady Sheridan wrote:
Viggo Mortensen has, if anything, given a clue as to what *he* thinks the character is. Those prayer/worry beads he flips around? They're made out of melted prison plastic. Mortensen got them from God knows where, but Nikolai probably got them off Ebay to add authenticity.
Sure, the KGB / FSB could never source something like that!? Sorry, you lost me here. Up until then it had been a thoughtful discussion. Now it's just your insistence.
Lady Sheridan wrote:tapehead wrote:Lady Sheridan wrote:
Viggo Mortensen has, if anything, given a clue as to what *he* thinks the character is. Those prayer/worry beads he flips around? They're made out of melted prison plastic. Mortensen got them from God knows where, but Nikolai probably got them off Ebay to add authenticity.
Sure, the KGB / FSB could never source something like that!? Sorry, you lost me here. Up until then it had been a thoughtful discussion. Now it's just your insistence.
Thanks. Whatever. I provide a prop as evidence and we go back into fantasy land.
So much for thoughtful discussion indeed.
Lord Voldemoo wrote:what the hell just happened?
Can everyone act like adults for 5 minutes?
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DennisMM wrote:WS, are you LS's mom?
Viggo Mortensen wrote:I have - I don't know how many - four dozen tattoos or something on my body in this movie, and a lot of them are pieces of songs or out of Russian literature, poetry or just sayings that people know about but that have more than one meaning. And there's one that was on a Russian prisoner. Actually, I saw it twice; once on someone's torso and once on his leg, I think. But anyway, I have it on my back. It says, 'The important thing is to remain human,' in Russian. And to the people that had those tattoos, mainly I think the important thing is to remain human means be your own man. Take it like a man. Don't respect authority, be a tough bastard and don't forget, keep your dignity. It's all that, but it also has another meaning, in the face of this hideous existence for people and very severe way of life. It was almost like that was something I remembered or I thought of a lot, that phrase. For Nikolai, that's sort of a guiding principle, in the end, strange as it might seem at first, when you meet the guy. The important thing is to remain human in the face of all this.
Lady Sheridan wrote:The fact is, the Russian mafia IS that secretive, it's danger lies in that no one really knows how it operates.
Lady Sheridan wrote:And those books and studies are very recent--too recent for a man Nikolai's age to pick up, stick on, and be able to account for. Not to mention, they would all be the same "age," and thus tip off any mobster he was trying to fake out.
Lady Sheridan wrote:"If he's really a prisoner, then he'd be real bad, so he can't be!" is lazy moral simplicity...
Why are you so determined that Cronenberg layered a film with color symbolism, but then did a quick-and-easy character job on Nikolai? Quite a disservice to the director and the actor, don't you think?
Keepcoolbutcare wrote:Lady Sheridan wrote:The fact is, the Russian mafia IS that secretive, it's danger lies in that no one really knows how it operates.
the mafia, the triads, the Yakuza - all "secret" organizations, all have had numerous, "realistic" films made about their inner workings as well, no?
so why, or how, are they soooo different than the Brotherhood?Lady Sheridan wrote:And those books and studies are very recent--too recent for a man Nikolai's age to pick up, stick on, and be able to account for. Not to mention, they would all be the same "age," and thus tip off any mobster he was trying to fake out.
oh, so your an expert on KGB/FSB profiling too, eh? 'Cuz I'm sure those organizations have released all of there intel on their operations, knowing how forthcoming and open and honest the police-state of both Soviet and current Russia are.Lady Sheridan wrote:"If he's really a prisoner, then he'd be real bad, so he can't be!" is lazy moral simplicity...
Why are you so determined that Cronenberg layered a film with color symbolism, but then did a quick-and-easy character job on Nikolai? Quite a disservice to the director and the actor, don't you think?
actually, the complete opposite. What Cronenberg has done with both of these "B", these genre pictures, is delve deep into the very schematics and foundations of what makes them tick and has applied his own clinical, detached eye to them. On the surface, on the level of the screenplay (neither written by DC), the pics play like typical, been there done that works, works that in other hands this (fatuous) debate wouldn't even be happening.
The film is in many ways about initial appearances and how deceiving they are, about how surface guises are necessary to fit into ones social place and the push-pull with one's own true nature, about duality (constant Cronenberg theme), about (throat) slashing through layers of character to reveal a truer understanding of them; the smooth, kind, grandfather intellectualism of Seymon to the gradual reveal of his murderous, homophobic and racial screed - the wild, insensitive, don't give a fuck playboy Kirill to a sympathetic queer who, literally, can't hurt a child - the brusque, gruff, "it's not our affair" dismissive alcoholism of Stepan who says one shouldn't go through the lives of a dead person to a curious busybody, patient translator and stand up guy - Anna's push-pull between daughter of Slavic immigrants and assimilation into English culture - and the final one, the big one, Nikolai's smooth hit-man/cleaner menace to big reveal that he's a cop.
fits thematically, no?
This "fantasy" version you and your relative have concocted not only strains for credulity (as does, indeed, the other interpretation - this is, after all, a picture firmly in love with its "B" roots) but then would not only invalidate the very fucking theme of the piece, but would also invalidate the "B" picture roots - 'cuz what ya'll are suggesting simply has never been done on film before (precedent set with my interpretation with INFERNAL AFFAIRS); cops/Feds turning to a hardened (3 times!) criminal and setting him up to run a criminal organization! Must be some real, real trustworthy convict for them to put him at the top and think they can control him, eh? And that's soooooo like the police (of any nation) to just throw in the towel and admit defeat by handing the keys to the kingdom to someone not there own, not police...'cuz just like criminals, don't police (of any nation) have a code, don't they have a way of looking and dealing with the world that prohibits outsiders?
and, if, IF, one were to believe the story related during Nikolai's induction (which I too, at first, thought was just "part of the initiation"), that indeed his mother was a whore (explains his dubious, dangerous and possibly cover-blowing saving of the whore Kirill had him fuck) - that indeed his father was in the same line of work he is - then your argument collapses upon itself completely, no?
'cuz then everything makes sense, all the pieces fit (aside from the w/t/f timeline, how Nikolai got an "in" in the first place) - he's an undercover cop out to bust the brotherhood like his father before him - why he would be willing to sacrifice his entire life, his happiness, for his job. Neat, tidy, and, above all, "B" picture worthy.
Keepcoolbutcare wrote:
the mafia, the triads, the Yakuza - all "secret" organizations, all have had numerous, "realistic" films made about their inner workings as well, no?
oh, so your an expert on KGB/FSB profiling too, eh? 'Cuz I'm sure those organizations have released all of there intel on their operations, knowing how forthcoming and open and honest the police-state of both Soviet and current Russia are.
KeepCoolButCare wrote:
The film is in many ways about initial appearances and how deceiving they are, about how surface guises are necessary to fit into ones social place and the push-pull with one's own true nature, about duality (constant Cronenberg theme), about (throat) slashing through layers of character to reveal a truer understanding of them; the smooth, kind, grandfather intellectualism of Seymon to the gradual reveal of his murderous, homophobic and racial screed - the wild, insensitive, don't give a fuck playboy Kirill to a sympathetic queer who, literally, can't hurt a child - the brusque, gruff, "it's not our affair" dismissive alcoholism of Stepan who says one shouldn't go through the lives of a dead person to a curious busybody, patient translator and stand up guy - Anna's push-pull between daughter of Slavic immigrants and assimilation into English culture - and the final one, the big one, Nikolai's smooth hit-man/cleaner menace to big reveal that he's a cop.
fits thematically, no?
This "fantasy" version you and your relative have concocted not only strains for credulity (as does, indeed, the other interpretation - this is, after all, a picture firmly in love with its "B" roots) but then would not only invalidate the very fucking theme of the piece, but would also invalidate the "B" picture roots - 'cuz what ya'll are suggesting simply has never been done on film before (precedent set with my interpretation with INFERNAL AFFAIRS); cops/Feds turning to a hardened (3 times!) criminal and setting him up to run a criminal organization! Must be some real, real trustworthy convict for them to put him at the top and think they can control him, eh? And that's soooooo like the police (of any nation) to just throw in the towel and admit defeat by handing the keys to the kingdom to someone not there own, not police...'cuz just like criminals, don't police (of any nation) have a code, don't they have a way of looking and dealing with the world that prohibits outsiders?
KeepCoolButCare wrote:and, if, IF, one were to believe the story related during Nikolai's induction (which I too, at first, thought was just "part of the initiation"), that indeed his mother was a whore (explains his dubious, dangerous and possibly cover-blowing saving of the whore Kirill had him fuck) - that indeed his father was in the same line of work he is - then your argument collapses upon itself completely, no?
KeepCoolButCare wrote:'cuz then everything makes sense, all the pieces fit (aside from the w/t/f timeline, how Nikolai got an "in" in the first place) - he's an undercover cop out to bust the brotherhood like his father before him - why he would be willing to sacrifice his entire life, his happiness, for his job. Neat, tidy, and, above all, "B" picture worthy.
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