Pacino86845 wrote:Well all the talk in the Golden Compass thread doesn't compel me to see the film, but it's put the books on the ol' radar...
So how are these books as a fantasy story? Are they most similar to:
Lord of the Rings, The Chronicles of Narnia, Dune, Dragon Lance, something Neil Gaiman wrote, H@rry Potter, or Other?
Maui wrote:TonyWilson wrote: People bitch about the Mulefla portions of book 3 but that's vital to Pullman's grand vision.
They do??? I actually enjoy that part of the book with Dr. Malone and the seed pods.
stereosforgeeks wrote:Maui wrote:TonyWilson wrote: People bitch about the Mulefla portions of book 3 but that's vital to Pullman's grand vision.
They do??? I actually enjoy that part of the book with Dr. Malone and the seed pods.
co-sign.
TonyWilson wrote:stereosforgeeks wrote:Maui wrote:TonyWilson wrote: People bitch about the Mulefla portions of book 3 but that's vital to Pullman's grand vision.
They do??? I actually enjoy that part of the book with Dr. Malone and the seed pods.
co-sign.
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Me too, it's excellent but I've heard quite a few moans about how it kills the pace. But I find it an odd criticism.
Maui wrote:TonyWilson wrote:stereosforgeeks wrote:Maui wrote:TonyWilson wrote: People bitch about the Mulefla portions of book 3 but that's vital to Pullman's grand vision.
They do??? I actually enjoy that part of the book with Dr. Malone and the seed pods.
co-sign.
![]()
Me too, it's excellent but I've heard quite a few moans about how it kills the pace. But I find it an odd criticism.
I'm still trying to visualize what they look like. Triangular buffalos.
DaleTremont wrote:Maui wrote:TonyWilson wrote:stereosforgeeks wrote:Maui wrote:TonyWilson wrote: People bitch about the Mulefla portions of book 3 but that's vital to Pullman's grand vision.
They do??? I actually enjoy that part of the book with Dr. Malone and the seed pods.
co-sign.
![]()
Me too, it's excellent but I've heard quite a few moans about how it kills the pace. But I find it an odd criticism.
I'm still trying to visualize what they look like. Triangular buffalos.
Hope that helps
Pacino86845 wrote:Well all the talk in the Golden Compass thread doesn't compel me to see the film, but it's put the books on the ol' radar...
So how are these books as a fantasy story? Are they most similar to:
Lord of the Rings, The Chronicles of Narnia, Dune, Dragon Lance, something Neil Gaiman wrote, H@rry Potter, or Other?
Lady Sheridan wrote:What I find perplexing about Pullman's "agenda" is the fact that he "confirms" the Bible at the same time he's screaming there's no God.
On one hand, you encounter the afterlife (directly influenced by Greek myth and the Hebrew belief of Sheol) and there, you meet Christian martyrs who are angry that they died for nothing. I think this chapter is the most damning and vicious than actually "killing God." If there's one area that I see as an assault on every religious belief, it's Pullman's dismissal of any kind of afterlife. And yet he still doesn't bring himself to do it entirely--when Lee dies, he "scatters" to the four winds where "the particles of his beloved Hester were waiting for him." I think there's a hint that the soul does go on and continue to feel, even if only on some faint level.
You have angels--and not rewritten or even incorporating Eastern beliefs, but a blatant use of Christian imagery. So while religion itself is wrong, the trappings of it are right?
And we have a soul, which can live on somehow (see spoiler)...which goes against every atheist I know, who believes our bodies are simply biological.
And "The Amber Spyglass" is one big retelling of the Fortunate Fall.
The fact that you CAN read it as anti-Church and anti-authority, rather than anti-religion, speaks volumes. I think, if pressed, Pullman doesn't actually know what he believes. Anyone who borrowed Milton as slavishly as he did doesn't entirely discount God. I'm just not sure he realizes it.
Lady Sheridan wrote:What I find perplexing about Pullman's "agenda" is the fact that he "confirms" the Bible at the same time he's screaming there's no God.
On one hand, you encounter the afterlife (directly influenced by Greek myth and the Hebrew belief of Sheol) and there, you meet Christian martyrs who are angry that they died for nothing. I think this chapter is the most damning and vicious than actually "killing God." If there's one area that I see as an assault on every religious belief, it's Pullman's dismissal of any kind of afterlife. And yet he still doesn't bring himself to do it entirely--when Lee dies, he "scatters" to the four winds where "the particles of his beloved Hester were waiting for him." I think there's a hint that the soul does go on and continue to feel, even if only on some faint level.
You have angels--and not rewritten or even incorporating Eastern beliefs, but a blatant use of Christian imagery. So while religion itself is wrong, the trappings of it are right?
And we have a soul, which can live on somehow (see spoiler)...which goes against every atheist I know, who believes our bodies are simply biological.
And "The Amber Spyglass" is one big retelling of the Fortunate Fall.
The fact that you CAN read it as anti-Church and anti-authority, rather than anti-religion, speaks volumes. I think, if pressed, Pullman doesn't actually know what he believes. Anyone who borrowed Milton as slavishly as he did doesn't entirely discount God. I'm just not sure he realizes it.
Lady Sheridan wrote:What I find perplexing about Pullman's "agenda" is the fact that he "confirms" the Bible at the same time he's screaming there's no God.
On one hand, you encounter the afterlife (directly influenced by Greek myth and the Hebrew belief of Sheol) and there, you meet Christian martyrs who are angry that they died for nothing. I think this chapter is the most damning and vicious than actually "killing God." If there's one area that I see as an assault on every religious belief, it's Pullman's dismissal of any kind of afterlife. And yet he still doesn't bring himself to do it entirely--when Lee dies, he "scatters" to the four winds where "the particles of his beloved Hester were waiting for him." I think there's a hint that the soul does go on and continue to feel, even if only on some faint level.
You have angels--and not rewritten or even incorporating Eastern beliefs, but a blatant use of Christian imagery. So while religion itself is wrong, the trappings of it are right?
DaleTremont wrote:Lady Sheridan wrote:What I find perplexing about Pullman's "agenda" is the fact that he "confirms" the Bible at the same time he's screaming there's no God.
On one hand, you encounter the afterlife (directly influenced by Greek myth and the Hebrew belief of Sheol) and there, you meet Christian martyrs who are angry that they died for nothing. I think this chapter is the most damning and vicious than actually "killing God." If there's one area that I see as an assault on every religious belief, it's Pullman's dismissal of any kind of afterlife. And yet he still doesn't bring himself to do it entirely--when Lee dies, he "scatters" to the four winds where "the particles of his beloved Hester were waiting for him." I think there's a hint that the soul does go on and continue to feel, even if only on some faint level.
You have angels--and not rewritten or even incorporating Eastern beliefs, but a blatant use of Christian imagery. So while religion itself is wrong, the trappings of it are right?
Well, it is a piece of narrative fiction. Narrative fantasy actually. Just because Pullman includes angels in his books, that doesn't mean he "believes" in angels. I'm not really getting why everyone assumes Pullman wrote HDM as some sort of treatise on his religious beliefs encoded in the symbology of the books....isn't it possible he himself was wrestling with these questions as he was writing it?
TonyWilson wrote:
I have to disagree with your assesment that there is a semblance of soul left or that there is an afterlife. I will try to dig my copy of the Amber Spyglass out but there's a passage about how Heaven was never really a place that existed physically but was brought forth by human belief. Something like that anyway. And I think the idea of Lee scattering to the four winds Pullman's way of talking about the idea that in the end we return to the stardust everything is made from. It's a scientific idea not a religious one.
Peven wrote:DaleTremont wrote:L ady Sheridan wrote:What I find perplexing about Pullman's "agenda" is the fact that he "confirms" the Bible at the same time he's screaming there's no God.
On one hand, you encounter the afterlife (directly influenced by Greek myth and the Hebrew belief of Sheol) and there, you meet Christian martyrs who are angry that they died for nothing. I think this chapter is the most damning and vicious than actually "killing God." If there's one area that I see as an assault on every religious belief, it's Pullman's dismissal of any kind of afterlife. And yet he still doesn't bring himself to do it entirely--when Lee dies, he "scatters" to the four winds where "the particles of his beloved Hester were waiting for him." I think there's a hint that the soul does go on and continue to feel, even if only on some faint level.
You have angels--and not rewritten or even incorporating Eastern beliefs, but a blatant use of Christian imagery. So while religion itself is wrong, the trappings of it are right?
Well, it is a piece of narrative fiction. Narrative fantasy actually. Just because Pullman includes angels in his books, that doesn't mean he "believes" in angels. I'm not really getting why everyone assumes Pullman wrote HDM as some sort of treatise on his religious beliefs encoded in the symbology of the books....isn't it possible he himself was wrestling with these questions as he was writing it?
i thought he himself has said he intended the books as a work of anti-religion, an outright attack. doesn't sound like he was wrestling with much
DaleTremont wrote:
Well, it is a piece of narrative fiction. Narrative fantasy actually. Just because Pullman includes angels in his books, that doesn't mean he "believes" in angels. I'm not really getting why everyone assumes Pullman wrote HDM as some sort of treatise on his religious beliefs encoded in the symbology of the books....isn't it possible he himself was wrestling with these questions as he was writing it?
His Dark Materials seems to be against organised religion. Do you believe in God?
I don't know whether there's a God or not. Nobody does, no matter what they say. I think it's perfectly possible to explain how the universe came about without bringing God into it, but I don't know everything, and there may well be a God somewhere, hiding away.
Actually, if he is keeping out of sight, it's because he's ashamed of his followers and all the cruelty and ignorance they're responsible for promoting in his name. If I were him, I'd want nothing to do with them.
You once said that His Dark Materials is not a fantasy, but stark realism. What did you mean by that?
That comment got me into trouble with the fantasy people. What I mean by it was roughly this: that the story I was trying to write was about real people, not beings that don't exist like elves or hobbits. Lyra and Will and the other characters are meant to be human beings like us, and the story is about a universal human experience, namely growing up. The 'fantasy' parts of the story were there as a picture of aspects of human nature, not as something alien and strange. For example, readers have told me that the dæmons, which at first seem so utterly fantastic, soon become so familiar and essential a part of each character that they, the readers, feel as if they've got a dæmon themselves. And my point is that they have, that we all have. It's an aspect of our personality that we often overlook, but it's there. that's what I mean by realism: I was using the fantastical elements to say something that I thought was true about us and about our lives.
Maui wrote:Lady Sheridan wrote:
Well, I was going on the assumption that he had said as much. It's been awhile since I read an interview with him, so maybe he never has.
See my post above girls!
Lady Sheridan wrote:TonyWilson wrote:
I have to disagree with your assesment that there is a semblance of soul left or that there is an afterlife. I will try to dig my copy of the Amber Spyglass out but there's a passage about how Heaven was never really a place that existed physically but was brought forth by human belief. Something like that anyway. And I think the idea of Lee scattering to the four winds Pullman's way of talking about the idea that in the end we return to the stardust everything is made from. It's a scientific idea not a religious one.
I'd buy that he was embracing carbon, if he didn't anthropomorphize it. If he was trying to be coldly scientific, he failed. I think that's what makes me skeptical of Pullman--for every "nasty" tear-down of Western religion, he softens and romanticizes his solution. Not only does belief in a soul fly against atheism, but the fact that we could send those souls to an afterlife?
I need to reread Amber Spyglass too, because I can't remember why the afterlife was so wretchedly awful. If humans have conjured it up, why wasn't it pleasant?
I seem to remember the whole "scattering" thing as something everyone still felt would preserve them. Most of them were desperate to get out and not feel, but I remember a few characters expressing hope that they would continue to feel and enjoy being part of the stars, as it were...and to me, if there's hope, there's the possibility that happened. But I'd have to reread it, because I remember it seeming rather bleakly scientific, and then suddenly blossoming into something more romantically spiritual.
Like I said--I think if you actually pressed him, he would waffle on what he believes and what he's written in His Dark Materials.
TylarD wrote:The Dark Materials takes much of its themes from 'Paradise Lost' by Milton, in which Milton set out to 'Glorify God' by describing the creation of the devil thru a revolt of Angels, the creation of Hell and then God's apparant preference for humans. As Milton wrote however he found himself sympathising with the devils' cause. Pullman uses exactly this in his universe; in many ways Dark Materials is an allegory of paradise lost.
Maui wrote:The Science of Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials
by Mary and John Gribbin (with an introduction by Philip Pullman)
'The award-winning science writers reveal how the trilogy is rooted in astonishing scientific truth. Drawing on string theory and spacetime, quantum physics and chaos theory, they answer fascinating questions such as: ''Could parallel worlds, like Will and Lyra's, really exist?''. ''How does Will's subtle knife cut through anything?''. ''Could there be a bomb like the one made with Lyra's hair?''. And, of course: ''What are the Dark Materials?''.'
Super Smart Guy wrote:The two major interpretations of quantum theory's implications for the nature of reality are the Copenhagen interpretation and the many-worlds theory. Niels Bohr proposed the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum theory, which asserts that a particle is whatever it is measured to be (for example, a wave or a particle), but that it cannot be assumed to have specific properties, or even to exist, until it is measured. In short, Bohr was saying that objective reality does not exist. This translates to a principle called superposition that claims that while we do not know what the state of any object is, it is actually in all possible states simultaneously, as long as we don't look to check.
To illustrate this theory, we can use the famous and somewhat cruel analogy of Schrodinger's cat. First, we have a living cat and place it in a thick lead box. At this stage, there is no question that the cat is alive. We then throw in a vial of cyanide and seal the box. We do not know if the cat is alive or if it has broken the cyanide capsule and died. Since we do not know, the cat is both dead and alive, according to quantum law - in a superposition of states. It is only when we break open the box and see what condition the cat is that the superposition is lost, and the cat must be either alive or dead.
The second interpretation of quantum theory is the many-worlds (or multiverse theory. It holds that as soon as a potential exists for any object to be in any state, the universe of that object transmutes into a series of parallel universes equal to the number of possible states in which that the object can exist, with each universe containing a unique single possible state of that object. Furthermore, there is a mechanism for interaction between these universes that somehow permits all states to be accessible in some way and for all possible states to be affected in some manner. Stephen Hawking and the late Richard Feynman are among the scientists who have expressed a preference for the many-worlds theory.
Not So Crazy Guy Wrote wrote:
A parallell universe is a region of space and time containing matter, galaxies, stars, planets and living beings. In other words, a parallel universe is similar and possibly even a duplicate of our own universe. Not only in a parallel universe must there be other human beings, but these may be human beings who are exact duplicates of ourselves and who are connected to ourselves through mechanisms only explainable using quantum physics concepts.
Maui wrote:Not So Crazy Guy Wrote wrote:
A parallell universe is a region of space and time containing matter, galaxies, stars, planets and living beings. In other words, a parallel universe is similar and possibly even a duplicate of our own universe. Not only in a parallel universe must there be other human beings, but these may be human beings who are exact duplicates of ourselves and who are connected to ourselves through mechanisms only explainable using quantum physics concepts.
Lord Voldemoo wrote:actually I may blow off the books and just keep reading this thread....most interesting read I've found in a week.
Lady Sheridan wrote:I was on Snopes looking up something else and of course, they have an enormous thing up for Pullman due to all the frantic Christian e-mail chains.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/compass.asp
I have to say, I never gave any consideration to Pullman when I read the books. I didn't know anything about him. He really does sound a bit mixed up.
But the most intriguing thing I read about this was...a sequel?! What happened to it? Did he abandon it, or will the buzz of the movie see it through?
Dee E. Goppstober wrote:Lord Voldemoo wrote:actually I may blow off the books and just keep reading this thread....most interesting read I've found in a week.
Hell yeah! I especially liked the connection to Milton being made. I never really read Paradise Lost, but might do now. I'm curious about the similarities.
When I read the books - as I remember it - I thought Pullman had a very spritual view on the world himself. Not coldly scientific (after all, Mary Malone, the scientist - gives up her cold reasoning to be drawn into a world of wonder). I thought his attack was mainly on the dogma of the Church - as Dale said (very eloquently, so just scroll up) , and not on religion in itself. I have the feeling he's being pushed into black and white categories by those who judge him, whereas his account is subtle really.
It is of course possible to argue, that questioning dogma will do no one any good -that all it does is bring chaos, disorder and despair. That's really the only possible course of reasoning that any one opposed to this book (and, probably many many other books before this) can take, IMO.
It's funny though- I never expected these books to generate such discussion. I also have trouble seeing Pullman's universe as some kind of coherent religious treaty. Like LS said, he's not being very consistent at all. And judging by Maui's quote above- I think he might be slightly pretentious to think that there's so much 'reality' in his story.
Do you reckon this might turn into a new belief system? Maybe the Bible started of as a fantasy trilogy too?
Dee E. Goppstober wrote:I especially liked the connection to Milton being made. I never really read Paradise Lost, but might do now.
Maui wrote:Well, I finished the trilogy last night. Truly a remarkable fascinating read - it was difficult to put down really. I felt like crying as I read the last page.
I was saddened and hopeful at the end of Spyglass. Sad because Will and Lyra could not be together the way they wanted to be. Sad because I had completed all 3 books - nowhere else to go with their story. I felt as though I was in a magical journey for a few weeks now. I guess I can always read it again.
DaleTremont wrote:Maui wrote:Well, I finished the trilogy last night. Truly a remarkable fascinating read - it was difficult to put down really. I felt like crying as I read the last page.
I was saddened and hopeful at the end of Spyglass. Sad because Will and Lyra could not be together the way they wanted to be. Sad because I had completed all 3 books - nowhere else to go with their story. I felt as though I was in a magical journey for a few weeks now. I guess I can always read it again.
But it's never as good as the first time![]()
I honestly was depressed for a week after I finished reading HP and the Deathly Hallows. I felt like part of my childhood had been snuffed out for good (then I sat up in bed at night praying I would reveal some sort of magical abilities and a giant would fly in through my window and ferry me off to a school for witches and wizards.)
.....no seriously, I'm only half joking
Maui wrote:DaleTremont wrote:Ma ui wrote:Well, I finished the trilogy last night. Truly a remarkable fascinating read - it was difficult to put down really. I felt like crying as I read the last page.
I was saddened and hopeful at the end of Spyglass. Sad because Will and Lyra could not be together the way they wanted to be. Sad because I had completed all 3 books - nowhere else to go with their story. I felt as though I was in a magical journey for a few weeks now. I guess I can always read it again.
But it's never as good as the first time![]()
I honestly was depressed for a week after I finished reading HP and the Deathly Hallows. I felt like part of my childhood had been snuffed out for good (then I sat up in bed at night praying I would reveal some sort of magical abilities and a giant would fly in through my window and ferry me off to a school for witches and wizards.)
.....no seriously, I'm only half joking
No you're not woman!!!!! Now onto Sharp Objects - will that depress me too?
Maui wrote:DaleTremont wrote:Ma ui wrote:Well, I finished the trilogy last night. Truly a remarkable fascinating read - it was difficult to put down really. I felt like crying as I read the last page.
I was saddened and hopeful at the end of Spyglass. Sad because Will and Lyra could not be together the way they wanted to be. Sad because I had completed all 3 books - nowhere else to go with their story. I felt as though I was in a magical journey for a few weeks now. I guess I can always read it again.
But it's never as good as the first time![]()
I honestly was depressed for a week after I finished reading HP and the Deathly Hallows. I felt like part of my childhood had been snuffed out for good (then I sat up in bed at night praying I would reveal some sort of magical abilities and a giant would fly in through my window and ferry me off to a school for witches and wizards.)
.....no seriously, I'm only half joking
No you're not woman!!!!! Now onto Sharp Objects - will that depress me too?
DaleTremont wrote:Maui wrote:Da leTremont wrote:Ma ui wrote:Well, I finished the trilogy last night. Truly a remarkable fascinating read - it was difficult to put down really. I felt like crying as I read the last page.
I was saddened and hopeful at the end of Spyglass. Sad because Will and Lyra could not be together the way they wanted to be. Sad because I had completed all 3 books - nowhere else to go with their story. I felt as though I was in a magical journey for a few weeks now. I guess I can always read it again.
But it's never as good as the first time![]()
I honestly was depressed for a week after I finished reading HP and the Deathly Hallows. I felt like part of my childhood had been snuffed out for good (then I sat up in bed at night praying I would reveal some sort of magical abilities and a giant would fly in through my window and ferry me off to a school for witches and wizards.)
.....no seriously, I'm only half joking
No you're not woman!!!!! Now onto Sharp Objects - will that depress me too?
Most certainly![]()
No actually it'll probably just wig you out and make you avoid pre-teen girls like the plague. But since you're smart you probably do that anyway
Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:
I take it you're talking about my brain? Yes. Yes it will depress you.
You know what they say...!!!!!! The most intelligent thing you can do - is try not to be smarter than me.
darkjedijaina wrote:"We are all subject to the fates. But we must all act as if we are not or die of despair."
Also, I liked this sentiment:
We must do what is in our nature to do and not in our destiny.
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