Mexican Standoff: Moore VS Miller VS Gaiman

Graphic novels. Weekly rags. The @$$holes.

Who's your favourite...?

Alan Moore
13
36%
Frank Miller
5
14%
Neil Gaiman
18
50%
 
Total votes : 36

Mexican Standoff: Moore VS Miller VS Gaiman

Postby Seppuku on Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:29 pm

Arguably the three writers who've managed to break into the non-comic book geek mainstream more successfully than any others. All of them seem to have been branching out into other fields the last few years, but their work in the comic industry still stands as some of the best the medium has to offer.


    Alan Moore: From Swamp Man to From Hell to America's Best Comics, he's about as versatile as they come. When he's not busy building up three-dimensional worlds just to pull them down again, he's tackling issues such as feminism (Promethea), racism (Top Ten) and, his personal favourite, creativity as a means to transcendence. He's certainly the most influential modern comic book writer, but is he your favourite?

    Neil Gaiman: Since taking over Moore's Miracleman near the end of its run and somehow not cocking it up, he's done as much to break open the industry as anyone. Sandman took its "For Mature Readers Only" tag, and used it to create a successful adult melodrama that encompassed everything from Shakespeare to Serial Killers. It was emo before it got such a bad wrap. He also wrote the criminally underrated Mr Punch and Violent Cases, among others.

    Frank Miller: The Mickey Spillane of comic books. He brought some grit and noir into the primary-coloured Daredevil panels; made the highly-cinematic, Leone and Lone Wolf & Cub-inspired Ronin, and created the Conan of Comic Books, Marv, in Sin City. Also, unlike the other two, he's not just a great writer, he's also one of the best artists in the industry.
Last edited by Seppuku on Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Seppuku
SWINGING PLASTIC LION
 
Posts: 7872
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:52 am
Location: Limeyland

Postby Spifftacular SquirrelGirl on Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:31 pm

This one is tough. Although it would probably be up between Moore and Gaiman and it's harder for me to say considering I'm a giant Gaiman fangirl...

But I'll have to give the nod to Moore. He just effortlessly puts up a higher volume of really amazing stuff. Gaiman would be second and Miller would be 3rd best if only because he does have a couple of hiccups on his writing resume (All Star Batman and Robin anyone?).
User avatar
Spifftacular SquirrelGirl
AIRWOLF
 
Posts: 1434
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:58 am
Location: Random tree

Postby Chilli on Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:32 pm

Frank Miller all the way. His Daredevil work is brilliant.
User avatar
Chilli
The Unfriendly Ghost
 
Posts: 6869
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:13 am
Location: Wales

Postby WalterBunny on Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:57 pm

I had to go with Gaiman. I love all three, but Gaiman's storytelling is more consistent for my tastes.
Image
User avatar
WalterBunny
STEAK-A-BABY
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:14 am
Location: Flying over Japan

Re: Mexican Standoff: Moore VS Miller VS Gaiman

Postby Al Shut on Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:09 pm

seppukudkurosawa wrote:Frank Miller's also one of the best artists in the industry.


That fact escaped my knowledge until now. He was the artist on Dark Knight Returns, wasn't he?

Because that's a downright blech in my opinion.
Note to myself: Fix this image shit!
User avatar
Al Shut
THE LAUGHING ZONER
 
Posts: 6227
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:57 pm
Location: Oberhausen, Germany

Re: Mexican Standoff: Moore VS Miller VS Gaiman

Postby Seppuku on Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:11 pm

Al_Shut wrote:
seppukudkurosawa wrote:Frank Miller's also one of the best artists in the industry.


That fact escaped my knowledge until now. He was the artist on Dark Knight Returns, wasn't he?

Because that's a downright blech in my opinion.


Hmmph. I liked his work on DKR, and especially Sin City circa That Yellow Bastard. That man can do more with two colours (and a yellow guy) than...erm, most people with more colours.
User avatar
Seppuku
SWINGING PLASTIC LION
 
Posts: 7872
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:52 am
Location: Limeyland

Postby Theta on Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:18 pm

Moore's the only horse in this race.

I like Gaiman, but if you read his books, or even the Sandman comics, they've got precisely one plot; a normal person transitions over into a fantasy/dream world and has an adventure. "Sandman" does manage to broaden it a bit, and the guy has a fine command with words, but "Neverwhere" is "Stardust" is "American Gods."

Miller HAD some great ideas but he's gone completely batshit. I'm one of the few people to love "The Dark Knight Strikes Again" but even there you can tell he was wobbling on the rails a little bit. Now we've got the Goddamn Batman. His art has suffered over the years as well; why the big floppy clown feet?'

Moore's the one who can take pretty much any material and turn it into something amazing. Even when he disappoints, like the Black Dossier, his command of story is superb.
This comment is in no way meant to insist your opinion is wrong or be considered an edict, solely this poster's opinion. That said, you are still a fool and will kneel before me in supplication.
User avatar
Theta
AIRWOLF
 
Posts: 2343
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:57 am
Location: Boston, MA

Postby instant_karma on Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:21 pm

When they're at the top of their game, I'd say they are all equally good. But looking at their respective bodies of work, I went with Moore because I feel he has a greater range than the other two.

My favourite comic book writer is Grant Morrison though...
User avatar
instant_karma
Comes in 4 exciting flavours
 
Posts: 2863
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:57 am
Location: Thereabouts

Postby Al Shut on Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:25 pm

Theta wrote:I like Gaiman, but if you read his books, or even the Sandman comics, they've got precisely one plot; a normal person transitions over into a fantasy/dream world and has an adventure. "Sandman" does manage to broaden it a bit, and the guy has a fine command with words, but "Neverwhere" is "Stardust" is "American Gods."



I'll have to admiit I've never read any Gaiman (yet) :oops: but that 'one plot' sounds general enough to work more than once. Do the similarities in the works you mentionend go past that point?
Note to myself: Fix this image shit!
User avatar
Al Shut
THE LAUGHING ZONER
 
Posts: 6227
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:57 pm
Location: Oberhausen, Germany

Postby Spifftacular SquirrelGirl on Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:27 pm

Al_Shut wrote:
Theta wrote:I like Gaiman, but if you read his books, or even the Sandman comics, they've got precisely one plot; a normal person transitions over into a fantasy/dream world and has an adventure. "Sandman" does manage to broaden it a bit, and the guy has a fine command with words, but "Neverwhere" is "Stardust" is "American Gods."



I'll have to admiit I've never read any Gaiman (yet) :oops: but that 'one plot' sounds general enough to work more than once. Do the similarities in the works you mentionend go past that point?



They do work but I can see what Theta is talking about. "Stardust" and "Neverwhere" are almost interchangable... only "Neverwhere" takes place in modern day London. Still love both books to death.
User avatar
Spifftacular SquirrelGirl
AIRWOLF
 
Posts: 1434
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:58 am
Location: Random tree

Postby Seppuku on Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:31 pm

Al_Shut wrote:
Theta wrote:I like Gaiman, but if you read his books, or even the Sandman comics, they've got precisely one plot; a normal person transitions over into a fantasy/dream world and has an adventure. "Sandman" does manage to broaden it a bit, and the guy has a fine command with words, but "Neverwhere" is "Stardust" is "American Gods."



I'll have to admiit I've never read any Gaiman (yet) :oops: but that 'one plot' sounds general enough to work more than once. Do the similarities in the works you mentionend go past that point?


Here's what the late Adam [em]Balm[ed] had to say in the Gaiman thread:

Adam Balm wrote:My brother had me laughing for ten minutes straight when he told me that Gaiman writes the same thing, in whatever he does. "Gods...hanging out." It's true.


Personally, I find Gaiman like good jazz. The structure doesn't matter as much as the way it's delivered. And Gaiman delivers like Coltrane. I think Death might just be my favourite character in the whole of comics.

Theta & Balm do have a case, though.
User avatar
Seppuku
SWINGING PLASTIC LION
 
Posts: 7872
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:52 am
Location: Limeyland

Postby Spifftacular SquirrelGirl on Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:36 pm

He does branch out somewhat.

I love a ton of his short stories.

"Smoke and Mirrors" is fantastic if you can find a copy. Gaiman riffs on everything from old fairy tales, Beowolf, Lovecraft, Christmas, strange erotic short stories, poems, and everything.

Just one of my favorite books ever.
User avatar
Spifftacular SquirrelGirl
AIRWOLF
 
Posts: 1434
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:58 am
Location: Random tree

Postby Pacino86845 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:37 pm

I voted Alan Moore, it was a no-brainer. I appreciate Frank Miller's work and the impact he's had on comics, but the guy's work hasn't managed to floor me like Moore's did on several occasions. I like what I've seen of Gaiman, but I'm really not well-versed in his writings at all.
User avatar
Pacino86845
EGYPTIAN LOVER
 
Posts: 14064
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:20 am

Postby DennisMM on Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:55 am

Gaiman has a great deal of charm, personally and in his prose and scripts. Miller is intense and honest, once again personally and in his work. The one I haven't exchanged a few words with is Moore, but I've read enough about him to see his personality reflected in his writing. And it is prismatic.

Gaiman feels, in a slightly melancholy fashion, reflecting on possibilities. Miller asserts, in a bold, Hemingway-esque manner especially in his more recent work. Both are very talented, but their talents are rather tightly focused. They do a couple of things very well.

Moore, on the other hand, is to comics writing what Bill Sienkiewicz is to comics art. He explodes with possibilities, writing across a wide range of genres. If his works sometimes have too similar a voice, it is the voice of a probing intelligence trying to see past what is in front of it into deeper reality. It can involve magick, which Moore practices as part of his spiritual beliefs, or quantum physics (and today no doubt would include string and brane theory). He writes about politics constantly, economics more than occasionally, personal and societal prejudices, and, once in a while, the psychology and sociology of violence.

We must consider how long each man has been working in comics. Gaiman has been writing and very occasionally drawing for about 20 years. Miller has been drawing for 30 years and writing for 25. Moore has been writing and very occasionally drawing for 30. Moore obviously has the advantage of longevity, although he has been fallow for years at a time without releasing non-comics work, unlike Gaiman who mostly writes fantasy novels these days and Miller who does film work now and again.

Gaiman has largely worked with classic fantasy themes, sometimes moving them into the modern world, most obviously in Sandman but also in The Books of Magic and Stardust. He took on the post-postmodern superhero when Alan Moore handed him the reins of Miracleman (and would have taken the reins of Swamp Thing from Rick Veitch had Veitch not been censored by DC). His most notable non-genre work has examined the nature of memory - Violent Cases, Signal to Noise, Mr. Punch. (Signal to Noise was just republished in a lovely hardcover edition, BTW.) In recent years he's taken on traditional superhero themes and bent them for his own purposes, as in 1602 and Eternals.

Miller's work, starting with his first writing assignment on Daredevil in 1982, all but created the "grim and gritty" superhero style that spread like kudzu through the '90s and still has to be sprayed with malathion periodically to stop it covering the dang detached writing room/studio (AKA the garage). He's done tough superheroes with Daredevil and Batman; tough sf war stories in the Martha Washington series; tough hard guys and women in Sin City; tough cyborgs in Robocop and Hard Boiled and tough ancient Greek warriors in 300. His work since the late '80s has been characterized by a cynical, libertarian streak where governments and militaries are led by arrogant incompetents and so are largely impotent. Corporations that may take the place of either of those institutions are bound to be just as corrupt. When he does leave the tough genre he tends to be childlike in his enthusiasm, as in The Big Guy and Rusty the Boy Robot.

Moore - fuck, Alan Moore can write like nobody's business. He started with a crude, weekly gag strip in a music paper, moved on to short, humorous stories in 2000 AD and a couple of Dr. Who stories for Marvel UK. Then he exploded. In 1982, Warrior #1 contained the first installments of both "Marvelman" and "V for Vendetta," with each appearing over most of the next 20 issues. It's not unknown for writers to produce more than one work at a time, and the Warrior installments were short, but we're talking about some serious work here. During this period he wrote "Skizz" for 2000 AD - his own take on the first-contact story as ripped off from E.T. by order of the editor - and continued to produce gag stories for Fleetway.

In 1983 he took over Swamp Thing from Martin Pasko and in his second issue redefined the character with such exacting logic (as seen through the DC superhero lens) that it became the standard for dark fantasy and essentially made the Vertigo imprint necessary. Twenty-five years on, Moore's earliest ST stories may look a little bit naive, but if you'd spent ten years following the character, "The Anatomy Lesson" was as much of a shock for you as being shot in the head was for Swampy.

Moore wrote Swamp Thing until 1987. During that time he also produced the feminist science fiction strip "The Ballad of Halo Jones" for 2000 AD, while continuing to contribute "V" and "Marvelman" scripts and yet more humor (okay, it was D.R. and Quinch - they were meant to be funny) stories. He wrote a number of backup stories for DC and First Comics, several issues of mainstream DC hero books, and three Superman stories - a Swamp Thing crossover in DC Comics Presents #85, the Superman Annual story "For the Man Who Has Everything" and the Silver Age Superman's astounding farewell, "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?"

In 1986, as he worked at wrapping up Swamp Thing, Moore was also writing Watchmen. and Eclipse Comics' continuation of "Marvelman," Miracleman. '87 brought a Batman annual, '88 The Killing Joke and the first installments of "From Hell" in Taboo. The next five years were slow, with a number of projects interrupted. "Lost Girls," which had appeared in Taboo, just ended. "From Hell" stopped. Big Numbers, a study of an English city, died when Bill Sienkiewicz and Moore could not work together. However, Moore did finish the psychological study A Small Killing and his wonderful early Marvel pastiche, 1963, as well as conclude V for Vendetta.

I could go on for another ten paragraphs likely. Moore did a lot of work for Image in the early '90s. Some of it was clever work that paid the bills, other was bad work that paid the bills Later in the decade he wrote Supreme, which was nearly as good a pastiche of Superman as 1963 had been of Marvel. Then came ABC and we got takes on pulp, Jack Cole, Tom Swift and the Phantom Lady in America's Best, plus Doc Savage in Tom Strong. Promethea showed me something I'd never seen before - a comic in which the story existed to present the beginnings of a philosophy. And Top Ten was an attempt to mix half a dozen genres together, throw in some Hill Street Blues and see what would stick to the wall.

Moore wins. There's no other logical choice.
Last edited by DennisMM on Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:25 am, edited 3 times in total.
"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." -- Noam Chomsky
DennisMM
NOT PARTICULARLY MENACING
 
Posts: 16808
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:02 pm
Location: Watchin' the reels go 'round and 'round

Postby Spifftacular SquirrelGirl on Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:04 am

Extremely well written, Dennis.

There's nothing there that I can't disagree with.
User avatar
Spifftacular SquirrelGirl
AIRWOLF
 
Posts: 1434
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:58 am
Location: Random tree

Postby burlivesleftnut on Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:23 am

Gaiman is too surreal and abstract for me. Moore is excellent, but doesn't hit it all the time.

Miller never disappoints. And even if you don't like his recent output, he deserves the mostest kudos for his treatment of Daredevil.

And for some weird reason I actually like the "goddamn" batman.
Image
User avatar
burlivesleftnut
I <3 PACINA
 
Posts: 10626
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:28 am
Location: Port Angeles, WA

Postby Seppuku on Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:29 am

I'm not gonna lie, I created this thread pretty much with the sole intention of hearing Dennis' take. I was almost tempted to bump it just for that reason. Ye Gods, did he not disappoint! I knew he'd eventually go for Moore- and not just because they look a little alike when Dennis goes unshaved- but I'm glad he managed to shed so many facts on all three of 'em in the process. I've now got about five or six more titles to hunt down.

Superbly done, Dennis. I'd say you can comfortably edit out "Not writing" from your post in the How Was Your 2007 thread.
User avatar
Seppuku
SWINGING PLASTIC LION
 
Posts: 7872
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:52 am
Location: Limeyland

Postby Spifftacular SquirrelGirl on Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:02 am

seppukudkurosawa wrote:I'm not gonna lie, I created this thread pretty much with the sole intention of hearing Dennis' take. I was almost tempted to bump it just for that reason. Ye Gods, did he not disappoint! I knew he'd eventually go for Moore- and not just because they look a little alike when Dennis goes unshaved- but I'm glad he managed to shed so many facts on all three of 'em in the process. I've now got about five or six more titles to hunt down.

Superbly done, Dennis. I'd say you can comfortably edit out "Not writing" from your post in the How Was Your 2007 thread.



Geez Seppu, couldn't you just pm Dennis about how much he likes Moore? ;)


Actually, I'm glad you did post this as a thread. I would have missed out on that answer.
User avatar
Spifftacular SquirrelGirl
AIRWOLF
 
Posts: 1434
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:58 am
Location: Random tree

Postby Seppuku on Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:39 am

Spifftacular SquirrelGirl wrote:Geez Seppu, couldn't you just pm Dennis about how much he likes Moore? ;)


I would, if it weren't for the restraining order he put out on me after that minor incident last year when I took a flight out to Denver and camped outside his house with binoculars for three months. I'm now not allowed within five posts of him.

I'm totally over that now, though. I've completely moved on...


Also, I wanted to hear what you had to say as well.

Where was it you said you lived again?

:twisted:
User avatar
Seppuku
SWINGING PLASTIC LION
 
Posts: 7872
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:52 am
Location: Limeyland

Postby unikrunk on Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:00 am

1) Alan Moore
2) what Dennis said
3) that is all
He can't' love you back...
Image
User avatar
unikrunk
AIRWOLF PLUS
 
Posts: 4845
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:48 am

Postby Spifftacular SquirrelGirl on Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:02 am

seppukudkurosawa wrote:
Spifftacular SquirrelGirl wrote:Geez Seppu, couldn't you just pm Dennis about how much he likes Moore? ;)


I would, if it weren't for the restraining order he put out on me after that minor incident last year when I took a flight out to Denver and camped outside his house with binoculars for three months. I'm now not allowed within five posts of him.

I'm totally over that now, though. I've completely moved on...


Also, I wanted to hear what you had to say as well.

Where was it you said you lived again?

:twisted:



I live a court regulated 200 yards away from you at all times, I think. ;)
User avatar
Spifftacular SquirrelGirl
AIRWOLF
 
Posts: 1434
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:58 am
Location: Random tree

Postby Nordling on Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:21 am

I chose Gaiman. I love Moore and Miller - Moore for WATCHMEN but actually more for TOP TEN which is just pounds of fun, and Miller for his Daredevil work and THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS.

But SANDMAN is art. There's just no other way to describe it. Gaiman deconstructs the human need to tell stories, literally breaks down human imagination in all its scope and splendor. To Gaiman, stories are pieces of God, something to which I wholeheartedly agree. I'm not religious in a conventional sense. I worship, for lack of a better word, story. Gaiman seems to have that same sense of joy and wonder at the sheer act of storytelling as I do.

SANDMAN is just a masterpiece, and deserves more than to be thought of as just a comic book. I think of the scene where Sandman kills his son, and whereever the blood drips flowers spring. Or the wonderful story set in post-Gulf War Iraq. Or the man who couldn't die, and how he goes through all the stages of death before finding peace. Or Gaiman's riffs on Shakespeare. The Cereal Killer Convention. 24 Hours In a Diner. Lucifer, oh, man, Gaiman's Lucifer is a brilliant character, as he sits on a beach, smiling and cussing God for the beauty of a sunset. So many stories and they work so perfectly in the grander scale story that Gaiman has set up. It's brilliant, brilliant stuff.

I'm not taking anything away from the others. Moore's a goddamn bloody genius, as is Miller (although in latter years Miller just doesn't seem to have it like he used to. "I'm the goddamn Batman!"? Okay...) WATCHMEN comes close to what SANDMAN does for me, but it's not quite there for me. THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS is the single best Batman story ever, of that there can be no doubt. But SANDMAN towers over all. I'd hang pages of that book in the Louvre.
Image
User avatar
Nordling
AIRWOLF
 
Posts: 2092
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:39 am
Location: Missouri City, TX

Postby Bayouwolf on Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:27 am

Miller.
Sin City is a superbly written and delightfully quirky in all the right ways.
Image
User avatar
Bayouwolf
Country Bouy
 
Posts: 3247
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:55 pm
Location: In the GTA, bitches....

Postby Nachokoolaid on Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:09 pm

Nordling wrote:I chose Gaiman. I love Moore and Miller - Moore for WATCHMEN but actually more for TOP TEN which is just pounds of fun, and Miller for his Daredevil work and THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS.

But SANDMAN is art. There's just no other way to describe it. Gaiman deconstructs the human need to tell stories, literally breaks down human imagination in all its scope and splendor. To Gaiman, stories are pieces of God, something to which I wholeheartedly agree. I'm not religious in a conventional sense. I worship, for lack of a better word, story. Gaiman seems to have that same sense of joy and wonder at the sheer act of storytelling as I do.

SANDMAN is just a masterpiece, and deserves more than to be thought of as just a comic book. I think of the scene where Sandman kills his son, and whereever the blood drips flowers spring. Or the wonderful story set in post-Gulf War Iraq. Or the man who couldn't die, and how he goes through all the stages of death before finding peace. Or Gaiman's riffs on Shakespeare. The Cereal Killer Convention. 24 Hours In a Diner. Lucifer, oh, man, Gaiman's Lucifer is a brilliant character, as he sits on a beach, smiling and cussing God for the beauty of a sunset. So many stories and they work so perfectly in the grander scale story that Gaiman has set up. It's brilliant, brilliant stuff.

I'm not taking anything away from the others. Moore's a goddamn bloody genius, as is Miller (although in latter years Miller just doesn't seem to have it like he used to. "I'm the goddamn Batman!"? Okay...) WATCHMEN comes close to what SANDMAN does for me, but it's not quite there for me. THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS is the single best Batman story ever, of that there can be no doubt. But SANDMAN towers over all. I'd hang pages of that book in the Louvre.


I think "ditto" would be too trite. But I feel the same way. Gaiman hits all the right notes for me. And I absolutely love AMERICAN GODS.
User avatar
Nachokoolaid
THE DORK KNIGHT
 
Posts: 5588
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:00 am
Location: Gotham City

Postby DennisMM on Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:20 pm

seppukudkurosawa wrote:I've now got about five or six more titles to hunt down.


Make sure you take a look at Miller's Ronin. Very interesting style of storytelling Miller never continued.




The Sandman is astonishing. I read all of it in the last several weeks, finishing "The Tempest" only two days before I wrote my post above, not having known this thread existed. It's a lovely fantasy novel. "The Kindly Ones," especially, touched and shocked me as it completed the theme of the series established in the first arc: Change or Die. But it is, for all intents and purposes, Gaiman's one great accomplishment as a comics writer.

While Moore has had a surprising number of failures in the last 30 years, his successes float far above most comics. I would lay Promethea side-by-side with The Sandman any day. It fails to measure up only because it's too complex and overloaded. It was a statement of Moore's world view and the faith that accompanies it, and he was too ambitious - at times the book became a cram school on magick rather than a story about the protagonist's journey through magick. Had he told the story over a longer period I think he would have been more successful and Sadie's continuing growth would have been more satisfying.

I have never - never - read a comics story better than From Hell. Trifles such as "Skizz" and "Halo Jones" are engaging in ways the best work of many talented comics writers never can be. I have not read any other comic nearly as often as I've read Watchmen, and I don't expect I will. It remains, for me, the ultimate in structure - and it was a wild experiment at the time.

Miller is a talented man, a great man especially when he focuses on something other than his own gratification. Gaiman is a poet and a storyteller of great skill.

Alan Moore is Leonardo fuckin' da Vinci.
Last edited by DennisMM on Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." -- Noam Chomsky
DennisMM
NOT PARTICULARLY MENACING
 
Posts: 16808
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:02 pm
Location: Watchin' the reels go 'round and 'round

Postby Lady Sheridan on Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:27 pm

My pick is Frank Miller. I like that he is unabashedly "bullets, broads and booze." It is what it is and I respect that. The man himself may be an egotistical blowhard, but his work rarely is. And he created Elektra, which is enough for me.

Gaiman comes with too much pressure for me. It's not that I don't like "more" to my comics--quite the opposite. But whenever I read Gaiman, I feel like he's going to expect me to write a through essay when I'm done, and he's going to mark it all over with red pen. It's like I'm in Dr. Aubrey's mythology class all over again. I enjoyed American Gods, but I can't relax to his work.

Moore is undeniably good, but I rarely enjoy reading him...it's like Faulkner or political science. I loved Watchmen, still need to read League, but disliked V for Vendetta.
User avatar
Lady Sheridan
RED
 
Posts: 5035
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:09 pm
Location: Croft Manor

Postby Nordling on Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:43 pm

My favorite Moore work is TOP TEN. Because for one frame, there's a superhero who's made of a lava lamp.
Image
User avatar
Nordling
AIRWOLF
 
Posts: 2092
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:39 am
Location: Missouri City, TX

Postby DennisMM on Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:53 pm

Top Ten is a wonder. Sheer hilarity punctuated by genuine sadness. Remember the atomic mice/atomic cat war that wound up creating an infinite crisis so the mouse infestation never happened in the first place? And so the exterminator couldn't collect on the bill? That, and suddenly Girl One is gone. (And it pissed me off royally that they brought her back as Girl Fifty-Three or whatever in the crappy non-Moore sequel.)
"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." -- Noam Chomsky
DennisMM
NOT PARTICULARLY MENACING
 
Posts: 16808
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:02 pm
Location: Watchin' the reels go 'round and 'round

Postby thomasgaffney on Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:00 pm

Gaiman.

Moore and Miller are overrated.
find me: twitter and goodreads
find my book: amazon
User avatar
thomasgaffney
a might unpredictable
 
Posts: 6618
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:11 am
Location: lost in a book

Postby Keepcoolbutcare on Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:11 am

DennisMM wrote:Moore wrote Swamp Thing until 1987....In 1986...
I could go on for another ten paragraphs likely.


and don't forget the The Interminable Ramble, circa 1987 or so, which even in that form is an amazing read.
Personally, I'm an atheist in the voting booth and a theist in the movie theatre. I separate the morality of religion with the spirituality and solace of it. There is something boring about atheism.
User avatar
Keepcoolbutcare
AIRWOLF PLUS
 
Posts: 9407
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:14 am
Location: Blacktionville

Postby DennisMM on Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:17 am

Yes, indeed. I'd love to see the full Watchmen proposal that's been excerpted in the special editions. All that talk about what's happened to the Charlton Action-Heroes since their books were canceled in the late '60s. The Big Numbers outline would be interesting, I think. It's a field of 144 blocks, one for each major character in each of the twelve issues. The man's insane but amazing.
"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." -- Noam Chomsky
DennisMM
NOT PARTICULARLY MENACING
 
Posts: 16808
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:02 pm
Location: Watchin' the reels go 'round and 'round

Postby Seppuku on Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:40 am

DennisMM wrote:Top Ten is a wonder. Sheer hilarity punctuated by genuine sadness. Remember the atomic mice/atomic cat war that wound up creating an infinite crisis so the mouse infestation never happened in the first place? And so the exterminator couldn't collect on the bill? That, and suddenly Girl One is gone. (And it pissed me off royally that they brought her back as Girl Fifty-Three or whatever in the crappy non-Moore sequel.)


For me, the easiest Moore read, and definitive proof that when the man isn't trying to sell us a certain theme, he can write anyone. I guess it's easier to make characters memorable when you can give each of them a special power, but there were so many different leads that it was still quite a feat. Also, writing a (kind of) sympathetic Christian character must have been quite a pill to swallow for Moore, but he did it anyway.

From Hell is still my favourite of his, though. I even took an Alt name from it (Jahbulon). When you realise that Moore read whole books simply to research a single panel, you start to pick up on the depth of this work of art. And, come the end, you start to wonder if Moore really was channeling William Blake. Don't let the movie put you off.

Sandman is probably my favourite comic of all time, but Moore is by far my favourite writer.
User avatar
Seppuku
SWINGING PLASTIC LION
 
Posts: 7872
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:52 am
Location: Limeyland

Postby Nordling on Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:03 am

The Tom Strong books are really great too. I love how Moore injected complicated themes and subjects into what is ostensibly old school adventure hero comics.

Dammit, you might turn me around on this.
Image
User avatar
Nordling
AIRWOLF
 
Posts: 2092
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:39 am
Location: Missouri City, TX

Postby DennisMM on Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:25 am

The man can do almost anything in comics form, though his broad humor isn't very good. The twist-ending 2000 AD shorts were fun, but his "D.R. and Quinch" stories were awful - and ripped off from National Lampoon's "O.C. and Stiggs." Splash Brannigan was a little better, in part because he was spinning from the genius of Jack Cole. He handles charming, light comedy reasonably well, as in the case of "Jack B. Quick." Of "The First American" perhaps I should say naught.

What impresses me about Moore beyond his mastery of the comics form, including the gag strip - see his "Maxwell the Magic Cat" - is that he works regularly in other media as well. He writes and presents spoken-word performance art with accompanying music, has managed a couple of completely unknown novels, has occasionally sung with a rock band (I've got a gimme flexi-disc). He is by far the most intimidating comics professional I've ever seen. Grant Morrison thinks he's out there, but he's got nothing on Moore. And yet Moore supposedly is a man of great kindness. Nothing is as important to him as his family and his home. He has never lived anywhere for an extended period but Northampton, usually in the same neighborhood in which he grew up. He has fought the city council in Northampton to maintain the council housing system rather than have buildings sold off to private investors. In the late '80s he published a charity comic called AARGH! (Artists Against Rampant Government Homophobia) to battle the UK's Clause 28 - a ruling that forced local school councils to avoid any discussion of homosexuality as a valid way of living. This was very close to Moore's heart, as he and his wife lived with a third, female partner in a polyamorous relationship (which ended when the two women decided to live on their own). One might think that would turn Moore away from his support for same-sex relationships, but instead he was inspired to expand his poem "The Mirror of Love" into a book illustrated with photographs by Jose Villarubia.
Last edited by DennisMM on Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DennisMM
NOT PARTICULARLY MENACING
 
Posts: 16808
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:02 pm
Location: Watchin' the reels go 'round and 'round

Postby instant_karma on Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:45 am

I liked D.R. and Quinch. Sure, it's a rip-off as you say, but Moore wasn't above such 'homages' back then. His 'And All Of Them Were Empty' Future Shock is totally stolen from Stephen King's Trucks, and it's unlikely Skizz would have been written if E.T. had never been made.

I mean, how can you not love something where Marlon Brando is crushed to death under an avalanch of oranges? Whenever I watch The Godfather, it's hard to resist shouting out 'Mind the oranges Marlon!' in the scene where he gets shot.
User avatar
instant_karma
Comes in 4 exciting flavours
 
Posts: 2863
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:57 am
Location: Thereabouts

Postby Alex DeLarge on Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:21 pm

Moore all the way. He is by far one of the most intelligent and creative writers I have encountered in my years. He can do it all: superheros, magic, porn, politics, horror, magic, fantasy, serial killers, adventure stories, conspiracy theories. EVERYTHING. He is also a very kind man and fascinating human being with a very interesting life. One of my fanboy dreams would be to get a hold of the screenplay he wrote called Fashion Beast.

For any Moore fans I would recommend you read this extensive interview. It's between him and David Sims(Cerebus) and he goes into detail on his philosophy, creative process and writing process. Heres the link: http://homepages.tesco.net/~kettlecup/amms/Correspondence1.htm

As for Frank Millar, he is undeniably talented but tends to get lost in his own ass sometimes. I love The Dark Knight Returns and Ronin and consider them masterpieces but everything else he does(and I think it was Alan Moore who said this) is just tough guys being tough. Not very interesting.

Gaiman I haven't read enough of but what I have I've really liked but he just doesn't seem up to par with Moore. Then again I haven't even read Sandman. I hang my head in shame.
Alex DeLarge
MONKEY BUTLER
 
Posts: 204
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:31 am

Postby DennisMM on Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:51 pm

instant_karma wrote:I liked D.R. and Quinch. Sure, it's a rip-off as you say, but Moore wasn't above such 'homages' back then. His 'And All Of Them Were Empty' Future Shock is totally stolen from Stephen King's Trucks, and it's unlikely Skizz would have been written if E.T. had never been made.

I mean, how can you not love something where Marlon Brando is crushed to death under an avalanch of oranges? Whenever I watch The Godfather, it's hard to resist shouting out 'Mind the oranges Marlon!' in the scene where he gets shot.


He has said that he was ordered to rip off both "O.C. and Stiggs" and "E.T." by the editors of 2000 AD. I don't fault him for that at all. I believe he's said Skizz came out all right but that he wasn't particularly fond of the "D.R. and Quinch" stories. They paid the bills and if they amused people, so much the better. It's no different from any other struggling writer with a family, and I didn't mean to give the impression he was slumming - which he certainly was on some of his Image material.
"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." -- Noam Chomsky
DennisMM
NOT PARTICULARLY MENACING
 
Posts: 16808
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:02 pm
Location: Watchin' the reels go 'round and 'round

Postby Nachokoolaid on Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:42 pm

thomasgaffney wrote:Gaiman.

Moore and Miller are overrated.


Any specific reasons?
User avatar
Nachokoolaid
THE DORK KNIGHT
 
Posts: 5588
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:00 am
Location: Gotham City

Postby Gheorghe Zamfir on Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:17 am

I like Miller's Batman takes, Return of the Dark Knight and especially Year One, but the absolutely terrible Dark Knight Strikes Back drops him out of the running completely for me. I know all the authors have their misses, but that comic was just unforgivably bad, bad, bad.

I'm loving reading a lot of the praise for Sandman, which I wholeheartedly agree with. I think its masterful stuff, and I'll probably never get tired of reading and rereading it. If this was a topic about comic titles, Sandman would win anytime, everytime, bar none for me.

But as its about authors, I have to go with Moore. As great as Sandman is, I've never read anything else by Gaiman that approaches it, a lot of decent to good stuff out there, by it all just comes off as echoes of his greater work.

Moore has so many great titles that I gotta go with him. Watchmen, V for Vendetta, Tom Strong, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and my favorite (a sentiment which I'm seeing here too) Top Ten, its not an exageration to just simply describe this as a series with EVERYTHING. Damn in-house politics for keeping this series from ever continuing the way it should be (with Moore writing and Gene Ha drawing).
Gheorghe Zamfir
REAL DRAGON
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:09 pm

Postby instant_karma on Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:18 am

Keepcoolbutcare wrote:
DennisMM wrote:Moore wrote Swamp Thing until 1987....In 1986...
I could go on for another ten paragraphs likely.


and don't forget the The Interminable Ramble, circa 1987 or so, which even in that form is an amazing read.


Just finished reading this. That sounds amazing. I wish DC and Moore would kiss and make up so this could happen.
User avatar
instant_karma
Comes in 4 exciting flavours
 
Posts: 2863
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:57 am
Location: Thereabouts

Postby DennisMM on Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:40 am

It's too much like Kingdom Come. Some people have, in fact, suggested a bit of lifting.
"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." -- Noam Chomsky
DennisMM
NOT PARTICULARLY MENACING
 
Posts: 16808
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:02 pm
Location: Watchin' the reels go 'round and 'round


Return to Comic Books

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest