Comic-Lit 101

[unikrunk]

I have done a lot of searching, and have not found a thread dedicated to comic-lit, so here it is, zoners.

What is Comic-Lit?

Exactly what is sounds like; sequential art as literature. Literature written in the comic book medium -

Some examples and personal favorites are:

- Chris Ware's 'The Acme Novelty Library - Jimmy Corrigan. Or. The Smartest Kid on Earth'

- Dave Cooper's work Crumple - the status of Knuckle -along with the rest of his stuff.

- Anything ever put out by James Kolchaka, and more importantly the ineffable Daniel Clowes.

I have about 30 more, but just wanted to jumpstart this and see what my zomies have to say.

[Nordling]

Where's Robert Crumb, Alan Moore, Terry Moore, Dave Sim, Jeff Smith?

[unikrunk]

Where's Robert Crumb, Alan Moore, Terry Moore, Dave Sim, Jeff Smith?

I don't know, why don't you use this space to offer some thoughts on their work?

I could have just rattled off all the greats, but I want your take...

[minstrel]

Where's Classics Illustrated?

[unikrunk]

Where's Classics Illustrated?

Why, I believe it's in the cake sir. Have at it.

[Fried Gold]

sequential art as literature. Literature written in the comic book medium

Aren't all comics like this?

[burlivesleftnut]

well I think he's trying to draw a distinction between fine literature and pop literature. Like the difference between John Updike and Clive Cussler.

[Fried Gold]

So it's the same sort of thing that happened in the 80s/90s, when people were too scared to be found out reading comics and so called them "Graphic Novels".

[unikrunk]

So it's the same sort of thing that happened in the 80s/90s, when people were too scared to be found out reading comics and so called them "Graphic Novels".

No sir, there is a distinct and very large difference; I am speaking of works of literature that are published in the comic book medium.

Maus, for example, is not in the same league as Countdown. One is a comic book adventure tale. The other is an academic work told through the comic book medium.

[Toastie]

Maus, for example, is not in the same league as Countdown. One is a comic book adventure tale. The other is an academic work told through the comic book medium.

Yeah...but which one is which?

[Toastie]

It seems like I hear this distinction trying to be made all the time. "Some comics are comics, whereas others are more than comics." Usually it has to do with the tights to character ratio of the comic: The more characters there are who wear tights, the less likely is it to be considered literature.

This exact same type of argument happens in almost all areas of art/culture, and usually for the same reason: as you get older your tastes 'mature'. What that really means is that they just change. You get bored with guys in tights fighting villainous madmen to save the world, and get interested in regular guys fighting inner demons to find themselves (or some such variation). As you get into the new stuff, the old stuff looks stupid, so you're like 'How did I ever read such drivel?' And ceremoniously sell away you're beloved X-men, Swamp Thing, and Iron Man comics, replacing them with Eightball, Jimmy Corrigan, etc. And then you sit around in your velvet smoking jacket, sipping chardonnay, smoking only the finest tobacco and read your new literature while listening to classical music.

But, alas, the only permanent thing is change! Eventually, after reading all that existentialist, soul searching, depth plumbing 'literature', you adjust to being middle aged, or whatever (ahem), and then think to yourself, 'Dude. Remember those amazing comics you used to read that had the most imaginative, exciting, enjoyable storylines? I could go for one of those.' Then when you pick up a 'comic' comic, you find out that you have been an idiot.

Comics are fucking brilliant! Hey, you know those guys in tights? They're just like the existentialist dopes in your 'literature' comics, but they've been flung into life and death struggles, and they have superpowers, cool gadgets, and colorful costumes! Wow! Hey, you know, the artwork is, like, ten time as good as that in 'literature' comics, too! Whoah! Hey, they actually publish a contiguous story, developing an entire world of people and characters who grow and evolve and stuff. Hey, when, like, someone pisses off the Hulk, instead of whining about it in his bedroom, and getting all angsty, he pummels the living shit out of them with his giant green fists! This is fucking cool!!!!

Not that you ditch the 'literature'. You just realize it's just another genre within the scope of comics. I like Dan Clowes, too, but sometimes I'd like to see David Boring be able to channel all his angst and meloncholy into kicking someone's ass.

I ranteth.

[unikrunk]

Actually, I personally read all sorts of comics; almost anything and most of them are guys in tights.

wts are you on about?

You are over in the Watchmen thread sucking Dennis' cawk over his academic paper; then you are in here, seemingly furious over the very thing. And do I perceive an allusion to elitism?

[Toastie]

Let's try to start over. I'm not elitist. I don't mean to sound furious. That's the trouble with typing your thoughts, I guess. People can read them in any tone of voice they'd like, and they have no way of knowing that's not how it was intended.

So, let me start by saying thanks for starting this thread. I'm into it. I read all of the authors mentioned thus far as well. All of the 'you' I referred to in my rant, meant myself, actually. I thought it was obvious, but that's the inner voice issue again. So, the elitism I am against is my own.

Yes. I liked Dennis' article. Ass kissery, perhaps. But I went nowhere near his caulk!

I'm new to this whole thing, and so I can only beg forgiveness of you older hands.

[unikrunk]

@toastie - no big whup, my bad for misreading your post - sorry toastie

/and welcome to the madness

[Toastie]

Is this thread limited to American/English language comics?

[unikrunk]

No limts.

Ever.

[Toastie]

I've been reading Tezuka's Phoenix series recently. It definitely finds that balance between the two ends of the comic spectrum. Have you read any of it?

[minstrel]

I've been reading Tezuka's Phoenix series recently. It definitely finds that balance between the two ends of the comic spectrum. Have you read any of it?

Do you have that in English? I wasn't aware that a translation had been published.

Or can you read Japanese?

My roomie knew Tezuka personally and has an extensive collection of Tezuka's works, but all in Japanese. So I haven't been able to read them myself.

[Toastie]

Do you have that in English? I wasn't aware that a translation had been published.

Or can you read Japanese?

I have six volumes in English, and a bunch of others in Japanese. The English version is published by VIZ. It is a decent translation, too.

Hai. Nihongo mo hanasemasu yo!

I want to introduce another manga by Ishinomori Shotaro that I bought in Japan a while back that's one of the best Sci-fi adventure mangas ever made. It's called Ryu's Path (Ryu no michi). When I have time I'll scan some pages and link them.

[minstrel]

Do you have that in English? I wasn't aware that a translation had been published.

Or can you read Japanese?

Hai. Nihongo mo hanasemasu yo!

Alas, I can't read Japanese. Sorry, can't help yo with yo nihongo.

[Toastie]

Alas, I can't read Japanese. Sorry, can't help yo with yo nihongo.

As far as I know, there is a big push out there to get Tezuka stuff translated. He was one of the greatest all time comic authors.

Here's some websites:

http://tezukainenglish.com/?q=node/52

http://web.archive.org/web/20060515070331/http://t ezuka-translated.com/

[Fried Gold]

So it's the same sort of thing that happened in the 80s/90s, when people were too scared to be found out reading comics and so called them "Graphic Novels".

No sir, there is a distinct and very large difference; I am speaking of works of literature that are published in the comic book medium.

Maus, for example, is not in the same league as Countdown. One is a comic book adventure tale. The other is an academic work told through the comic book medium.

That still doesn't really add any particular distinction.

"A work of literature in the comic book medium" still makes it a comic. I know Maus can't be considered in the same domain as Countdown (even though I've not read Countdown yet....). Citizen Kane and Star Wars aren't either, but they're both films.

A Dostoevsky in the comic book medium is still a comic.

[unikrunk]

@Fried Gold - hence the title of the thread; no argument here, we are discussing comics. The thread is meant for discussion / ideas/ rants on comic-lit

[unikrunk]

Wagner’s The Ring of the Nibelung – TPB Vol. 1
P. Craig Russell / Dark Horse Comics 2002

Russell undertakes the seemingly impossible task of translating ‘THE OPERA' into a monthly series with extreme forethought and a deep respect for both Wagner’s work and the tradition of adventure comics.

This is the first point that the TPB drives home; the book opens with 8 pages of demonstrative material showcasing the methodology employed in the series creation. This is neat material, but out of place structurally – it takes away from the impact of the book by pulling back the curtain before the show has even started. It’s tantamount to opening Return of the King with 20 minutes of behind the scenes effects production. In addition it seems a little condescending to the audience; if you were not aware of what may be the most famous opera ever, you probably are in no rush to buy a comic book about it.

The art is fantastic throughout, however Craig never hits stride with dialogue; it is either far too sparse and cryptic, or confusing dry exposition. Kudos for the effort though, because the sum is greater than the parts here, in the end an enjoyable read. This is due to the adventure comic aspect which carries the work through some potentially boring areas. When things get dull, throw in a totally mental Odin and a Valkyrie for him to bang heads with…

That’s it for volume one, I suppose, as the fat lady has yet to sing.

8 out of 10 thumbs up on the unikrunk scale of goodness.

[Lady Sheridan]

Wow, I'm going to have to look that up. Thanks, unikrunk. It's too bad, though, they just didn't adapt The Nibelungenlied or, even better, the original Volsung Saga. I'm not too familiar with the opera, but I know that it's often enough to turn people off the original Nordic goodness.

Man, I wish I could draw. There's nothing like that final bloodbath at the end--Attila the Hun, owned!

[Toastie]

Russel's Ring of the Neibelungen was great, I thought. I didn't care too much for the writing. I was into it for the sheer beauty of Russel's art. The coloring was spectacular as well, if I remember correctly. I gave all my issues of the series to my fiance's brother in Japan. He doesn't read English well, so I tried to pick the comics I thought told the story as visually as possible. Try reading that with any of the Wagner playing in the background. A truly cool experience.

[Toastie]

So it's the same sort of thing that happened in the 80s/90s, when people were too scared to be found out reading comics and so called them "Graphic Novels".

No sir, there is a distinct and very large difference; I am speaking of works of literature that are published in the comic book medium.

Maus, for example, is not in the same league as Countdown. One is a comic book adventure tale. The other is an academic work told through the comic book medium.

That still doesn't really add any particular distinction.

"A work of literature in the comic book medium" still makes it a comic. I know Maus can't be considered in the same domain as Countdown (even though I've not read Countdown yet....). Citizen Kane and Star Wars aren't either, but they're both films.

A Dostoevsky in the comic book medium is still a comic.

I was thinking about this over the weekend. Should we try to come up with a basic definition of 'comic literature' to limit the scope for this thread?

I know this is not the greatest definition, but maybe it will spark more discussion. Comic lit, as with other literature, explores and raises questions about the human condition that are not clearly resolved by the story line, prompting the reader to become reflective. Since comics are a largely visual medium, like film, whether or not the work meets the criteria of the above definition does not depend on the writing, alone, but can be dependent on composition of accompanying imagery, which is capable of altering the reading of the words.

What do you think?

[Keepcoolbutcare]

hey uni-k, I don't know if you've read this, but not only is it nerfect for this thread of yours, but it's something I'm fairly certainly positive that you'll dig it the most.

as for the distinction that teh krunk was aiming for between Comic-Lit and Comic-Lite, one way to look at it would be that Comic-Lit (or C-Lit, or...well, you can see where that was going) is much more personal, reflecting their respective creators world view as opposed to telling stories that have to fit into a well established back history. Yeah, that's a bit glib, and, yes, there are a lot of mainstream, or Comic-Lite (Clites? no) creators who somehow manage to put their personal stamp on creations that aren't their own (and that goes the other way as well, for not all Clits are created equal).

and as for the snarky, "let's bash the new thread that at least tries to generate some discussion about comics" comments found above, learn to read between the lines ya' daft Comic-Grunts (gentlemen?).

well I think he's trying to draw a distinction between fine literature and pop literature. Like the difference between John Updike and Clive Cussler.

exactly.

but sometimes I'd like to see David Boring be able to channel all his angst and meloncholy into kicking someone's ass.

lash!

[unikrunk]

Raw – High Culture for Low Brows – Vol. 2 #3
Penguin Books – 1990

Arguably the most influential comics magazine of the 80’s, RAW lasted 11 year in the comic foray, but as the good man said, the candle that burns twice as hot burns twice as fast. Edited by Art Spiegelmen and a rolling European editorial counterpart, the magazine was the perfect showcase of international talent.

Not only did RAW offer its audience a wider view of the comics world, the physical structure of the book was equally as varied; the shape, paper stock, and printing methods would be inconsistent throughout an issue, depending on the content.

Issue #3 of Vol. 2 is by far my favorite publication, as it really hit its stride right before being snuffed out. This issue is packed to the ceiling with great stuff; some fantastic early work from Chris Ware, the final chapter of Maus, Krazy Kat (printed on old paper stock), and many other international comics stories.

At this time in publication the books had become a little less unwieldy, and were put out in a kind of ‘Reader’s Digest’ format; tight, small and packed with awesome.

The first 5 issues, or Volume 1, were printed the size of a fucking bus (newspaper) and did not make for covert comics reading around the house. At the time, something like this was of import to me; heaven forbid my pops picking up my ‘funny books’ to see sexualized imagery, a study of the paintings Cheri Samba, and A Holocaust Tail being pushed on his son by a bunch of subversive counter-culturists.

No, I needed something that could fit in my back pocket, and that, the second run did. Fitting into my pocket was great, but I still am trying to fit it in my head after 17 years; this book has been read so many times that it is literally falling apart at the seams.

A reissue of the magazine has been rumored for years, and I truly hope that it moves forward one day- all I have left is this final issue, and it would be nice to recollect the others.

A true find, if you come across an issue in your local used book store or flea-market, scoop it up, and act like it’s not worth the money it is.

For a more thorough breakdown of the mag, check out wiki.

Well, that’s all for this ‘review’ (blow job) of this amazing publication. Go find it, and love it.

[doglips]

Wagner’s The Ring of the Nibelung – TPB Vol. 1
P. Craig Russell / Dark Horse Comics 2002

Russell undertakes the seemingly impossible task of translating ‘THE OPERA' into a monthly series with extreme forethought and a deep respect for both Wagner’s work and the tradition of adventure comics.

This is the first point that the TPB drives home; the book opens with 8 pages of demonstrative material showcasing the methodology employed in the series creation. This is neat material, but out of place structurally – it takes away from the impact of the book by pulling back the curtain before the show has even started. It’s tantamount to opening Return of the King with 20 minutes of behind the scenes effects production. In addition it seems a little condescending to the audience; if you were not aware of what may be the most famous opera ever, you probably are in no rush to buy a comic book about it.

The art is fantastic throughout, however Craig never hits stride with dialogue; it is either far too sparse and cryptic, or confusing dry exposition. Kudos for the effort though, because the sum is greater than the parts here, in the end an enjoyable read. This is due to the adventure comic aspect which carries the work through some potentially boring areas. When things get dull, throw in a totally mental Odin and a Valkyrie for him to bang heads with…

That’s it for volume one, I suppose, as the fat lady has yet to sing.

8 out of 10 thumbs up on the unikrunk scale of goodness.

Finally some more love for these great books.

My father in law has an exhibition of his prints in London this autumn to coincide with the Wagner society's new production of the Ring Cycle. Some of his prints are online here.

[Al Shut]

It's too bad, though, they just didn't adapt The Nibelungenlied or, even better, the original Volsung Saga.

Yeah but in full blown 300 style. Look at the Persians and then imagine how the Huns and Goths would turn out.

[unikrunk]

hey uni-k, I don't know if you've read this, but not only is it nerfect for this thread of yours, but it's something I'm fairly certainly positive that you'll dig it the most.

I have not, but have been meaning to pick it up since its release; Chuck Burns is one of my all time favorites - his Big Baby stuff was fantastic, and I have heard rumors that some of the Big Baby stuff is tied into Black Hole. On a side note, there was a film in the late 80's that displayed an animated Big Baby and Zippy the Pinhead toon; anyone remember the name of that?

Another great Burns piece is El Borbah - if you have not read it, I 'highly' recommend it.

[worstsuperheroever]

I actually just took a class on Graphic Novels (as we tried to make them sound more literary). If I find the required reading list, I'll post it.

[DennisMM]

Wow, I'm going to have to look that up. Thanks, unikrunk. It's too bad, though, they just didn't adapt The Nibelungenlied or, even better, the original Volsung Saga. I'm not too familiar with the opera, but I know that it's often enough to turn people off the original Nordic goodness.

Man, I wish I could draw. There's nothing like that final bloodbath at the end--Attila the Hun, owned!

Lady S., Russell's career for many years has revolved around the adaptation of 19th-century literature and opera, including pieces from Kipling's Jungle Book, a number of Wilde selections (among them Salome), and The Magic Flute. He doesn't seem much interested in going to original sources on those with older roots. Just FYI.

[Peven]

first thing, after reading through the exchange between Unikrunk and Toastie i'd like to say,........



........you heartless insensitive bastard Unikrunk, does your viciousness know no bounds?




second, does Prince Valiant count as comics? cause i think he is swell.

[Pacino86845]

I dunno if my question deserved a thread of its own, prolly a general Chris Ware thread IS in order since I feel there needs to be like a Chris Ware Reader or Chris Ware Companion in order to get into this dude's work.

I've read Jimmy Corrigan but now I'm at a complete loss of where to go from here.

I've seen lots of Chris Ware ACME Novelty Library stuff on the bookshelves, and I'm toying with the idea of getting one of 'em, but I don't know which!!

Are there any Chris Ware experts 'round here? How should one go through his bibliography?

[stereosforgeeks]

Jimmy Corrigan is the only Chris Ware I've read as well. My friend keeps telling me to get the ACME stuff but I havent had the chance yet.

After reading Jimmy Corrigan I felt like I needed to be on suicide watch. It is an excellent book and worthy of all the praise it gets. The layouts are incredible in and of themselves. The emotional content of the book just hit me hard and I'm not sure how many re-reads I will be able to get out of it.

[Pacino86845]

I've only read it the one time and have been terrified to revisit it ever since, so I'm totally with you there.

Also it certainly lives up to all the praise it gets, that's for sure, which is why I'm looking for the "next" Chris Ware book to read after Jimmy Corrigan.

[stereosforgeeks]

I've only read it the one time and have been terrified to revisit it ever since, so I'm totally with you there.

Also it certainly lives up to all the praise it gets, that's for sure, which is why I'm looking for the "next" Chris Ware book to read after Jimmy Corrigan.

Ive heard his other works don't leave you with the feeling Corrigan does. So I too am looking for any advice people are willing to give. I know doglips is a big Ware fan and one of the few that can actually read Corrigan multiple times.

[Colin]

Ive heard his other works don't leave you with the feeling Corrigan does.

I wouldn't say that's entirely accurate.

The one thing about Chris Ware's art is that it's so precise and detailed that you can't help but look at a page for 10 minutes picking out all the details. Whether it's Jimmy Corrigan or anything else he's produced through Acme Novelty Library the quality of the art has never dipped. So this is always something one would need to consider when making comparisons between his different works, because while you're reading any of his stories it's the art that draws you in immediately from the first picture and doesn't let go until the very last.

However I remember Alan Moore once commenting on Ware's work saying it's some of the most brilliant stuff he's ever come across, "package-wise". But "content-wise" he felt Ware's considerable skills would have been put to better use telling stories with a little more substance (although I may be totally misquoting him here as I haven't heard the interview for a long time, but that was the idea he was kind of getting at). With that I would have to disagree (not strongly, but still), mainly because it really comes down to this: because of the way it looks, regardless of what the story is, pretty much anyone can read it. I do see where Moore is coming from though, since he is himself an innovator, one goal he's always had with his writing is to put the artist over. So he can look at Ware's work and think beyond what's there and think about what he can do.

All being said, personally I can read any of Ware's works over and over again and get something new from them every time. Whenever there's a new release from him, of course, that ends up getting more of my attention than the previous books but every now and then I'll find myself going back to the older stuff and reliving it all over again. Chris Ware is without a doubt one creator whose work I can actually say I read all the time. And I guarantee if you read any of Ware's works cover to cover for a fourth or fifth (or even, in some cases, mine especially, a twelfth or thirteenth) time you'll be shaking your head at how new and refreshing it feels every time.

[Pacino86845]

Thanks for the response Colin, but I still don't know what to go for next!!! *confused*

[doglips]

I'd say go for Quimby Mouse, after Blankets it's one of the most emotionally touching books I've read. Although mainly based around Quimby and his cat head Sparky navigating life, the real pull is the written word pages/blocks from Ware which are a poignant and beautiful ode to his relationship with his grandmother. I'm making it sound almost depressing, but it's strip based and painfully funny. As Colin says above the main point for owning Ware work is just to look at it, Quimby being no exception - the book is staggeringly illustrated ( Get the hardcover! ) I can safely say you'll love it Pacino, I thought/assumed ( being as you are so well read ) you'd read it already!

[Nachokoolaid]

Neil Gaiman went into a whole rant on his blog about this topic (which I'm too lazy to find). But his blog is interesting, so if you want to find it, have at it.

Long story short, he said a comic is a comic. Like people, some are better than others, no matter what you call them. I tend to agree with him.

[Colin]

I'd say go for Quimby Mouse, after Blankets it's one of the most emotionally touching books I've read. Although mainly based around Quimby and his cat head Sparky navigating life, the real pull is the written word pages/blocks from Ware which are a poignant and beautiful ode to his relationship with his grandmother. I'm making it sound almost depressing, but it's strip based and painfully funny.

What he said.

[Colin]

Actually Pacino another one you could give a shot is the latest Acme Novelty Library. Number 18. It's a one-shot (as far as I know) about a girl with a prosthetic leg. She's made appearances before in previous works but this is the first spotlight story all about her.

16 and 17 was a two-parter about Rusty Brown, a boy in elementary school who fantasizes about being Supergirl's sidekick, and also a couple of kids new to the school. Really great stuff.

[Pacino86845]

Great, thanks a lot guys!

Doglips mentioning Blankets reminded me that that's another GN I'd been meaning to pick up.

Sounds like I'll be going for ACME Novelty Library #18 next and prolly order Quimby Mouse as well.

Just one final question though: I've seen this giant-sized hardcover ACME Novelty Library... has an orange cover.

What the heck is it, and does it kick ass? This is what I'm talkin' 'bout

[doglips]

Great, thanks a lot guys!

Doglips mentioning Blankets reminded me that that's another GN I'd been meaning to pick up.

Sounds like I'll be going for ACME Novelty Library #18 next and prolly order Quimby Mouse as well.

Just one final question though: I've seen this giant-sized hardcover ACME Novelty Library... has an orange cover.

What the heck is it, and does it kick ass? This is what I'm talkin' 'bout

That's a great book, collects a selection of strips, has some Early Rusty Brown who Colin mentioned above. Rocket Sam is covered well AND it has a couple of Quimby's, so good value - It's got a lot of content, my brother got it for me for christmas and I've probs only read half of the stuff so far.

[Colin]

Yeah, that's Acme Novelty Library #15. It's got a bunch of random stuff in it. It's something I love about Ware's stuff. #15 can be an enormous hardcover and #16 could be the size of a pocket book. It's hard to organize em on your shelf but I love the spontaneity of it.