which DIRECTOR'S CUT, EXTENDED or SPECIAL EDITION sucked?

[LaDracul]

I'm disappointed that the "Annie" SE I'm watching is FULL SCREEN. For some reason, SONY doesn't release Widescreen versions of their family films. And it pisses me off because this was filmed in widescreen and there's all that jerkiness in the Pan and Scan from this version, which is usually shown in TV.

But, until they get their heads out of their asses, I'll have to settle for this with "Matilda" as well.

I am surprised that PLAY (The Swedish girl group whose one member still looks underage) did a good version of "Hard Knock Life"...

[sonnyboo]

Did Walter Hill approve that shit?
What in hell was he thinking?

Yes he did, He does the intro and comments on his original intent. He also relates it to the story of "300". The only thing I would have added back in was the title card that says "Sometime in the future".

[DinoDeLaurentiis]

I'm disappointed that the "Annie" SE I'm watching is FULL SCREEN.

Iffa you donna wanna the SE, you can always get a the original release, no?

[LaDracul]

I'm disappointed that the "Annie" SE I'm watching is FULL SCREEN.

Iffa you donna wanna the SE, you can always get a the original release, no?

Yes, but can you GET the original release in retail anymore? I hardly order things online.

[DinoDeLaurentiis]

I hardly order things online.

There's a the whole world outta there, atta your disposal, eh? It's a time a to take a part inna it, no?

[The Vicar]

It was a more like a they hadda the idea for a the game based onna the Rock-a-Star premise, anna so's a they hadda to re-release a the movie so as a to make a the game relevant inna the minds of a the buying public, eh?

A 'cos otherwise you gonna to have alla these young putzes saying "The Warri-Who?"

Those cutaways to "comic book panels" looked as shitty as Boll's video game screen inserts in his turd opus House of the Dead.
Did Walter Hill approve that shit?
What in hell was he thinking?

He was thinking:

Big Bucks,Big Bucks,Big Bucks, No Whammies

Hah!

[sonnyboo]

tack on HOLLOW MAN: DIRECTOR'S CUT to the "ones that suck".

I think they added about :04 seconds to the movie that I can tell.

[Crimson King]

I actually prefer the theatrical cut of Payback. I'm not saying the Straight Up version sucked, I just didn't think it was as good.

[sonnyboo]

I actually prefer the theatrical cut of Payback. I'm not saying the Straight Up version sucked, I just didn't think it was as good.

I 100% agree. I'd almost want a hybrid - the first half from STRAIGHT UP, and the 2nd half from the THEATRICAL... but I don't like the movie enough to see a 3rd version.

[Spandau Belly]

I won't say that the director's cut of T2: Judgement Day "sucks" but I do feel it's inferior to the theatrical cut. It's kinda one of those extended cuts where you get a ratio of one awesome scene that you can't believe the ever cut (the one where Sarah takes out the Terminator's brain and wants to smash it but John stops her) to three scenes that add nothing and just throw off the pacing. There's a bunch of stuff in the desert with the Terminator learning about people that is cute and makes sense, but was already communicated in other scenes and just adds to a lull in the middle of the movie. The other added material is kinda neutral little moments that are niether here nor there. There's also a third cut with an epilogue ending that shows Sarah living in a peaceful future as an old lady which I really hate because I hate those types of endings that just jump ahead a bunch of years to show that everything really is okay.

[Chairman Kaga]

Never saw this cut of T2 I should go looking for it.

[Spandau Belly]

I'll also add that I've only seen the extended cut of The Forty Year Old Virgin on DVD. It was kinda weird, I liked it, and commented to my friend who was showing it to me that it just felt twenty minutes too long and then I picked up the DVD box and actually read that this version was twenty minutes longer than whatever you guys saw in the cinemas, so I guess my opinion is that of the test audiences or whatever in this case.

[Fried Gold]

Never saw this cut of T2 I should go looking for it.

You should. You can get the Ultimate Edition DVD for next to nothing now.

[Spandau Belly]

I'll chime in with my support for the director's cut of Kingdom of Heaven in that I actually can't believe they ever released the theatical cut since it makes no sense. In the theatrical cut the main character has no motivation, he's just some dude who got pissed at priest, killed him, went fugitive, and became a hero. The director's cut really shows how the priest was his half brother who tormented him his whole life and was really menacing him when Orlando snaps and kills him. The theme of beign accountable to one's conscience is fully developed and Cybilla's descent into madness makes more sense.

I'll also say that I prefer the director's cut of Payback because it's more like a serious badass Charles Bronson movie whereas the theatrical cut is more of a comedy in the Guy Ritchie vein of one slickwitted guy playing several goofy factions to the middle with lots of slapstick and oneliners. There's nothing wrong with either, it's just a matter of personal preferance.

[Pacino86845]

I'll chime in with my support for the director's cut of Kingdom of Heaven in that I actually can't believe they ever released the theatical cut since it makes no sense. In the theatrical cut the main character has no motivation, he's just some dude who got pissed at priest, killed him, went fugitive, and became a hero. The director's cut really shows how the priest was his half brother who tormented him his whole life and was really menacing him when Orlando snaps and kills him. The theme of beign accountable to one's conscience is fully developed and Cybilla's descent into madness makes more sense.

YES! Another Kingdom of Heaven fan! Join us!

[ONeillSG1]

Has anyone mentioned the Director's Cut of Daredevil yet? A cut so bad that you can actually see the difference in the cinematographic quality of the film? It's one thing for the Donner Cut of Superman II, being its 1979 and all. But, Mark Steven Johnson, come on dude. You could have at least TRIED to polish and meld the different reels.

Gawd.

[Archive]

I've always felt the Special Edition of Aliens did two things that hurt the film.

It introduced forced backstory into Ripley, when she was already plenty motivated and plenty troubled. Aging her 57 years in stasis and ending the world she knew left her with this kind of mysterious pain. We already knew she lost people - it was clear from the great performance Sigourney Weaver gave, as well as being an obvious consequence of waking up in a different time. We didn't need to know exactly who. Overexposition hurt our need to connect with her, and hamstrung the performance.

Secondly, it turned Newt from a great supporting character into a glaring convenience of plot. Are you telling me that the daughter of the man who discovered the aliens is the SOLE survivor? And she's not even the main character? Sorry. Too much.

The bit with the guns... It wasn't needed, but it wasn't too much. It did raise the tension a little, but at that point the tension was already so high that it was diminishing returns. Cutting that helped the flow of the story, and may have made the aliens a little more invincible, one on one. The guns established that they have superiority of numbers, but cutting that bit kept it a bit more of a monser movie, IMHO.

[so sorry]

I'll chime in with my support for the director's cut of Kingdom of Heaven in that I actually can't believe they ever released the theatical cut since it makes no sense. In the theatrical cut the main character has no motivation, he's just some dude who got pissed at priest, killed him, went fugitive, and became a hero. The director's cut really shows how the priest was his half brother who tormented him his whole life and was really menacing him when Orlando snaps and kills him. The theme of beign accountable to one's conscience is fully developed and Cybilla's descent into madness makes more sense.

YES! Another Kingdom of Heaven fan! Join us! :)

OK you two, take your LOVE for a Special Edition to another thread.

This is the HATED Special Edition thread you Orlando-loving pansies.

[ONeillSG1]

OK you two, take your LOVE for a Special Edition to another thread.

This is the HATED Special Edition thread you Orlando-loving pansies.

Amen.

[caruso_stalker217]

For me, I generally LOVE longer, extended, alternate cuts of movies. Occassionally, a few of these sucks ass.

For me, the extended cut of INDEPENDENCE DAY made the movie much worse. Not only did it NOT add anything to the movie, it made some elements even detract.

Obviously the SPECIAL EDITION of THE ABYSS had some great special and visual FX work, but that movie was NOT better than the theatrical cut.


Anyone else? What DIRECTOR'S CUT, EXTENDED EDITION, SPECIAL EDITION, EXPANDED EDITION do you feel was worse than the original version?

Obviously, I'm like six months late on this one, but I thought the Special Edition of THE ABYSS was leagues ahead of the theatrical version. With the tsunamis and shit. And the aliens saying, "Yeah, we could fuck you up pretty bad, but we'll give you a chance to redeem yourselves." So the ending of the theatrical version didn't even make sense. That line "They sent you a message. Hope you got it" and Cat says, "That's a big ten-four!" doesn't make ANY goddamn sense. Fuck you, theatrical version of THE ABYSS.

Anyway, I don't know if anybody mentioned this, but the extended version of TERMINATOR 2 blows goats.

[Spandau Belly]

I also never cared for the director's cut of Chinatown. I thought what Roman Polanski wanted to do with the picture was interesting, but I'm glad Robert Evans reeled him in and cut it down to what we saw in the cinemas and what has been available on DVD all these years.

Adding that character of Jack Nicholson's estranged teenage son as a cage fighter in Mexico is kinda interesting because it develops the theme of family relationships, but having him make a pinata in the likeness of his father and then burst out of it when he enters the ring was just a little absurd.

I also didn't care for the scene where Howard Hughes sings Sinatra type lounge music to his model of a plane, that just felt like we were losing focus of the main character. However I like the added scenes of Faye Dunnaway down on the pier building her own tug boat and the powerful scene we see one of the oil tankers John Huston owns ram it. And the scene where the goat witnesses a murder and Nicholson manages to get a confession out of him was kinda one of those character moments that probably made sense in the script, but when you see the complete movie we get that he's resourceful from other scenes. The line "Goat's never lie, except when they do. So don't drink their milk." was cute and noirish but felt a little too cute for this movie.

So overall I go with Chinatown: The Theatrical Cut, and I hope that you guys realize I'm just messing with you and this other cut doesn't actually exists.

[caruso_stalker217]

I also never cared for the director's cut of Chinatown. I thought what Roman Polanski wanted to do with the picture was interesting, but I'm glad Robert Evans reeled him in and cut it down to what we saw in the cinemas and what has been available on DVD all these years.

Adding that character of Jack Nicholson's estranged teenage son as a cage fighter in Mexico is kinda interesting because it develops the theme of family relationships, but having him make a pinata in the likeness of his father and then burst out of it when he enters the ring was just a little absurd.

I also didn't care for the scene where Howard Hughes sings Sinatra type lounge music to his model of a plane, that just felt like we were losing focus of the main character. However I like the added scenes of Faye Dunnaway down on the pier building her own tug boat and the powerful scene we see one of the oil tankers John Huston owns ram it. And the scene where the goat witnesses a murder and Nicholson manages to get a confession out of him was kinda one of those character moments that probably made sense in the script, but when you see the complete movie we get that he's resourceful from other scenes. The line "Goat's never lie, except when they do. So don't drink their milk." was cute and noirish but felt a little too cute for this movie.

So overall I go with Chinatown: The Theatrical Cut, and I hope that you guys realize I'm just messing with you and this other cut doesn't actually exists.

[RogueScribner]

I'd actually like to see that.

[Spandau Belly]

Okay, I can't believe I didn't think of this one before.

Amadeus. It's one of my favorite movies and I really didn't like the extended cut that came out a few years ago and is now the only cut available on DVD.

The extended cut does show the extent to which Mozart's alcholism costs he and his family and does eloborate on just how much presitge he'd lost by the time he died, but as a result the movie runs out of steam and we kinda forget that we're seeing it from Salieri's perspective. It seems to actually just drift into being a typical formless biopic about a musician's rise and fall into drugs and women etc.

We do get to see Mrs. Mozart's huge knockers, and as much as I like huge knockers, the scene was just kinda weird. It did explain why she hated Salieri so much at the end, but before I just figured she was angry because Salieri had never helped Mozart with his influence or because he was exploiting him to write one last tune on his death bed. I get that the scene was to show Salieri's dedication to humiliating Mozart by fucking his wife, but it just wasn't executed well and didn't fit.

So I'm glad I've got my vintage DVD of the original theatrical cut of Amadeus, because I greatly prefer it.

[Brocktune]

i dont know if anyone has seen the DC of "Apocalypse Now" or not, but i can tell you with all seriousness that i wish i had not. they should change the name of the film to "Apocalypse Nap".

[travis-dane]

i dont know if anyone has seen the DC of "Apocalypse Now" or not, but i can tell you with all seriousness that i wish i had not. they should change the name of the film to "Apocalypse Nap".

You mean APOCALYPSE NOW REDUX....
I liked it....

[Brocktune]

i dont know if anyone has seen the DC of "Apocalypse Now" or not, but i can tell you with all seriousness that i wish i had not. they should change the name of the film to "Apocalypse Nap".

You mean APOCALYPSE NOW REDUX....
I liked it....

thats the one.

really?
you liked it?

cuz i there is some paint a dryin on my walls that i need someone to watch for me, so if you're not doing anything right now.....

[caruso_stalker217]

I guess I like the extra shit in APOCALYPSE NOW REDUX, but it doesn't really add to anything except the running time.

[Spandau Belly]

Apocalypse Now Redux is one of those tricky tradeoff director's cuts where for every cool scene they add, they add another that you wish they hadn't and keep it about even.

I absolutely love the stuff at the end at the French plantation and the extra scenes of Kurtz. I also like that the begining is longer with Willard really freaking out and his briefing lasting longer and being more visual.

But that stuff where they try to fuck the Playboy bunnies does nothing for me and just drags the movie out. And I really hate that they threw in Willard getting all prankster and steeling Kilgore's surfboard.

So it's kinda 50/50 for me on that one, but I come down prefering the Redux cut.

[sonnyboo]

I guess I like the extra shit in APOCALYPSE NOW REDUX, but it doesn't really add to anything except the running time.

I was in that camp that secretly was disappointed in the original cut, but you don't tell anyone because it's sacred. With the REDUX version, I felt it made much better sense. There was a slow, even keeled descent into madness. The ending at Kurtz' compound made much more sense to me after the methodical descent down as sanity and reason depart. In the original cut, I thought there were some skips forward and at the time I saw it, I had no clue about filmmaking and deleted scenes. It just felt like 3 separate movies and the transitions made little sense. In the REDUX version it all came together as a beautiful painting of madness.

[caruso_stalker217]

The only Kurtz stuff I didn't like in the redux was that scene where he's sitting in broad daylight and reading a news article to Willard. It didn't add anything and it seemed really out of place since in every other scene Kurtz is always in shadow.

I liked the French plantation scene only because it has Clean's funeral. But the rest of that shit should've stayed gone because the entire film grinds to a halt with a lot of talk and Willard tapping that French ass and whatnot.

Also, that shot where the mist or the smoke or whatever the fuck it was (haven't seen it in a while) pulls back and reveals the French soldiers was pretty cool.

[kid on an escalator]

Fast Track, aka The Ex, has a terrible unrated version. Not that the movie is anything special to begin with, but with the unrated version they remove so much of the plot that it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

I just wanted to add it here because it's quite fascinating how they can butcher a movie like that, slap unrated on the DVD and then call it a day.

[Spandau Belly]

Okay, I'm coming back on Apocalypse Now having just watched the original cut for the first time since the Redux was released and I now feel with much more certainty that the Redux is a much superior cut.

The movie feels more like a long surreal journey and the Redux adds actual intelligent conversation to a movie that was otherwise just guys cussing at each other. And the French Plantation scene really solidifies the Jungian themes.

So I'm now Reduxed all the way. I still wish there was a make-your-own-cut feature because I'd take out the second scene with the bunnies and the part where Willard breaks character and steals Kilgore's surf board.

[Crimson King]

RE: Donnie Darko (The Director's Cut)

So, like, being a fan of the theatrical version of Donnie Darko, I had to buy the Director's Cut the moment I saw it on the shelf. The interesting thing is....I've had it for well over a year, maybe two, I don't know, and I still haven't seen it. I'm kind of afraid that watching it might diminish my appreciation for the greatness that is the theatrical cut. I just love that movie.


RE: Amadeus (New Cut)

I've never seen this movie, but I've always heard about how great it is. My friend tells me it's among his favorites of all time, possibly even topping his list. So, I went out and bought this two-disc set when I saw it was on sale. Well, for some reason, after all this time, I still haven't gotten around to seeing it.

Now, after reading this thread, I think I'm better off not having watched the version I got. If it's true that this extended cut is inferior, then I'd like to get my hands on the original theatrical version first.

[RogueScribner]

I don't know about Amadeus, but the director's cut of Donnie Darko was pointless and was not as cool as the theatrical cut, IMO.

[TheBaxter]

wow, i can't believe i missed this thread the first time... but i'm glad to see everyone is in agreement that the Donnie Darko DC is horrible.
IT IS AN ABOMINATION!

the song changes are a big part of it. killing moon is obviously superior to never tear us apart, and sets the tone for the film much better than in the DC.
even worse for me, as a huge fan of the Church, was the removal of Under the Milky Way. BLASPHEMY!!!!

also, the scenes inserted into the film don't make it any better, and the STUPID, STUPID title cards from that time travel book that overexplain everything are STUPID! it's like watching the film with cliff's notes. the original is much better because it leaves some stuff to your own interpretation. yes the original is more confusing, but after the 2nd, 3rd, 4th time you watch it, the film begins to make more sense. with the DC, everything is dumbed down and thrown in your face and you lose that sense of discovery that comes from repeat viewings and discussion with others.

the donnie darko director's cut. I HATES IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tyrone_Shoelaces]

I don't know about Amadeus, but the director's cut of Donnie Darko was pointless and was not as cool as the theatrical cut, IMO.

I will second that emotion.

[sonnyboo]

Strange, I've only ever seen the DIRECTOR'S CUT of Donnie Darko. Since that was my sole experience, I'd have to wonder if the movie even made sense any shorter.

I thought that the Director's Cut of DAREDEVIL was better than the theatrical, but GOD did both versions suffer from some sucky acting and direction. It's like all the elements were there to make a great movie, but there was some intangible glue that kept it from being good at every turn.

DUNE: SPECIAL EDITION, the Alan Smithee version kinda sucks. As a kid, I loved the theatrical and salivated to see more and more footage. Now in High Def I see this steaming pile of poo that not only did not have the decency to CGI the eyes blues of the Fremen, but this is so blatantly a rough edit of every deleted scene, it's insulting to put this out as is.

-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-


Do you think it's possible, not to invalidate anyone's opinion on this, but in a more broad sense that we ALL get tainted by whichever version we see first? Especially if we see it many times in a theatrical cut, then see an alternate version? Sentimentality swaying the overall analysis?

[RogueScribner]

I think people will naturally favor what came first if they liked it the first time around, but I also think some differences transcend preference. The added footage to Donner's Superman didn't alter the film that much--it was mainly stuff trimmed for time--but the alternate versions of films like The Abyss and Donnie Darko change the films on a fundamental level. A good thing for The Abyss (Cameron's cut was better than Fox's); not such a good thing for Donnie Darko (the theatrical cut made for a cooler experience).

[TheBaxter]

i find that this happens in the case where i see a film first before reading the book, or vice versa. if i see the film first, i prefer the film, but if i read the book first, i usually prefer that. part of that may be due to the fact that i'm more inclined to seek out the other version if i liked the first version.

however, with director's cuts, it can go either way. i find the extended versions of the LOTR films are all far superior to the theatrical versions, despite having obviously seen the theatrical versions first. the abyss is another good example where the extended version is a significant improvement. and yet, the DC of donnie darko is a complete and utter piece of shit next to the original.

[Crimson King]

Strange, I've only ever seen the DIRECTOR'S CUT of Donnie Darko. Since that was my sole experience, I'd have to wonder if the movie even made sense any shorter.


-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-


Do you think it's possible, not to invalidate anyone's opinion on this, but in a more broad sense that we ALL get tainted by whichever version we see first? Especially if we see it many times in a theatrical cut, then see an alternate version? Sentimentality swaying the overall analysis?

I think that's defintely a possibility, but it also depends. I mean, sometimes the director's cut is actually a superior version to the studio's. Other times that's not the case at all.

With Donnie Darko, I don't think you can go from the Director's Cut to the theatrical cut, 'cause you already know all the answers...or well, most of them, I guess, I dunno. I still haven't seen it. Part of what makes Donnie Darko such an awesome movie is that it makes you think about shit and allows you draw your own conclusions.

I've seen movies based on books where the book is obviously FAR superior (Even Cowgirls Get the Blues). I've also seen movies where they're equally as good as the book (Rosemary's Baby). And I've seen movies where I prefer the movie over the books (Fight Club -- and I'm a HUGE Chuck Palahniuk fan). With Fight Club, though, I think both version are equally as good, and that's a case where it really depends on which one you experience first. So yeah, sometimes that does come into play, especially when it comes to adaptations. As for recuts? I don't know if that's the case as much. I guess it probably depends on whether the new footage actually adds something to the story (or the characters) other than time.

[freakengine]

Many may disagree but I found the extended cut of Fellowship of the Ring to be tedious. It loses most of the momentum that the original cut had. I especially miss the way the opening of the shire portion of the original plays out.

On a less serious note (hmmmmmmmm) I think the extended cut of Talledega Nights ruins a lot of the comic timing. It wasn't a great movie but congrats on making it even worse.

[TheBaxter]

i think a lot of comedies suffer from extended cuts. timing and pace is so important in a comedy, just a few small changes can take a really funny movie and make it unfunny.
i never saw the theatrical version of pineapple express, but i couldn't make it through the extended cut.
the extended cut of walk hard starts out really funny, but just gets less and less funny as it goes. something tells me the theatrical version was probably tighter and funnier.

[Spandau Belly]

i think a lot of comedies suffer from extended cuts. timing and pace is so important in a comedy, just a few small changes can take a really funny movie and make it unfunny.
the extended cut of walk hard starts out really funny, but just gets less and less funny as it goes. something tells me the theatrical version was probably tighter and funnier.

I'm with you on that. For the most part I would enjoy these Apatow movies if they were 20 minutes shorter. I think people have a limited appetite for comedy. To me, for every ten minutes a comedy go past the 90 minute mark the overall enjoyment goes down dramatically. It's not a question of the content, most of the scenes in 40YOV were funny to me, but I'd just had enough and they kept feeding me.

[curiousgeorge]

I hated 40 year old virgin. Stve Carrel was so unfunny in it. The scene where he gets waxed. Couldn't he have come up with better lines that a kid could say but better? 'Fuck me in the asshole', 'I hate you'. Is that the funniest you can say when being waxed? Is that a comedian's imagination? If people are going ot pay you millions to come up with something a child could say, you might as well not pay you this or pay a child to do your job. Cue some Struggling Background Artist who's going to disagree with me here and come up with some bonehead apologetic excuse. That makes you a Struggling Background Artist.

[caruso_stalker217]

Well, he was being genuinely waxed. Maybe the normal response is "Fuck me in the asshole."

[curiousgeorge]

Well, he was being genuinely waxed. Maybe the normal response is "Fuck me in the asshole."

Um, no. He's a comeian, an artist, he says things a bit more than just 'normal'. Neither was he playing the normal card here. If you remember correctly, he already had lines 'pre-written' on a card for that scene that he was using to formulate a response, a more clever response, something more imaginative and funny, less predicatable. So your argument holds no water. Thank you for playing, but no thank you.

[Seppuku]

Well, he was being genuinely waxed. Maybe the normal response is "Fuck me in the asshole."

Um, no. He's a comeian, an artist, he says things a bit more than just 'normal'. Neither was he playing the normal card here. If you remember correctly, he already had lines 'pre-written' on a card for that scene that he was using to formulate a response, a more clever response, something more imaginative and funny, less predicatable. So your argument holds no water. Thank you for playing, but no thank you.

Scottyspotty/Sir Shitstain Sr?

[TheBaxter]

I hated 40 year old virgin. Stve Carrel was so unfunny in it. The scene where he gets waxed. Couldn't he have come up with better lines that a kid could say but better? 'Fuck me in the asshole', 'I hate you'. Is that the funniest you can say when being waxed? Is that a comedian's imagination? If people are going ot pay you millions to come up with something a child could say, you might as well not pay you this or pay a child to do your job. Cue some Struggling Background Artist who's going to disagree with me here and come up with some bonehead apologetic excuse. That makes you a Struggling Background Artist.

i don't see what any of this has to do with director's cuts or extended editions.

[curiousgeorge]

I hated 40 year old virgin. Stve Carrel was so unfunny in it. The scene where he gets waxed. Couldn't he have come up with better lines that a kid could say but better? 'Fuck me in the asshole', 'I hate you'. Is that the funniest you can say when being waxed? Is that a comedian's imagination? If people are going ot pay you millions to come up with something a child could say, you might as well not pay you this or pay a child to do your job. Cue some Struggling Background Artist who's going to disagree with me here and come up with some bonehead apologetic excuse. That makes you a Struggling Background Artist.

i don't see what any of this has to do with director's cuts or extended editions.

It's part of the Special Edition. Which is what this thread is entitled. Are we clear? ARE WE CLEAR????!!!!