TERMINATOR QUADTETANTHOLOGY

[Fried Gold]

The Terminator has bucket loads of tension, action and tection. It obviously set the ball rolling. It's remarkably unmawkish for a James Cameron film - perhaps his relatively low budget didn't allow him to be.

Terminator 2 is probably my favourite of the series. Wonderful effects, amazing action set pieces, and a good story.

Terminator 3 didn't really seem to add anything and wasn't needed. Nick Stahl is lame. The effects weren't as good as the second even though it was made a decade later. And Skynet turned out to be the Internet. Although the ending is one of the best moments in the Terminator series.

Terminator Salvation is something of a big mess and perhaps a missed opportunity to start something linked, but afresh. Weak, hack, director. Too many cooks in the kitchen. They cut out Moon Bloodgood getting naked.

Discuss. Now. And Vote.

[Cpt Kirks 2pay]

Can I just vote or 'Like' this thread without bothering to contribute anything substantial like an actual POST?

[King Of Nowhere]

T2 i simply can't stand (for the same reason i can't stand Aliens).
T3 had balls.
Salvation's lighting department was the least of it's problems.

The original pwns all.

[Nachokoolaid]

I like the original a lot. And while I understand that you have to have one before you can have two, I really have to say that two is my favorite. There are still some SFX shots that look pretty good, nearly 20 years later. Sure, a lot of them are dated now, but it really pushed the envelope back when it was released. But it's not all about special FX. It's about story too. I really thought that T2's story was great. And I loved how it turned things on it's head and made Arnold the hero. Pretty ingenious, really.

Remember after seeing the original Terminator how we all that that the Terminator was nearly unstoppable? He was a bone chillingly cold as ice villain. Then I remember how the T-1000 made Arnie seem like a pussy. For that reason alone, T2 deserves some props. It found a way to do what I thought would be impossible in a sequel... bring back that sense of danger, and one-up the original Terminator. And the fact that he was a shapeshifter, and could therefore be anyone. That's the stuff nightmares are made of.

[Bloo]

Terminator has Micheal Biehn therefore it wins

[GothamAlleys]

The original has always been my favorite ever since I saw it in 1984. I just love the constant feel of dread and danger, the ever present hum of the bass, the music, the cyberpunk look, the dark feel and the "Michael Myers-ness" of Arnold. Today its my #2 favorite movie of all time

Even tho I always loved original the most, theres no denying for a fact that T2 when it comes to writing and craft is a far superiror movie which literally blows my mind with its complexity and craftsmanship. Im a former film school student and I know that in at least 4 different film schools in the states T2 is used to learn from and in different departments such as script (correlation of themes, narrative symmetry, etc) , editing and lighting. I deeply admire the film and love it like crazy. If anyone wants to see how comples and well crafted it is, take a peek here - http://www.dvdvision.fr/jco/T2Complexity.htm

The third one is a movie that literally, and literally have plotholes, inconsistencies and things that dont make sense in every single scene, and its not an exageration. Every single scene - http://thejcoboard.46.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=126.The characters contradict themselves multiple times, and just nothing holds together and really, its amazing that its in every scene. its probably the worst written big budget movie I have ever seen in the sense that the logic and any kind of consistency is completely out the window. Also hated the ending as it took the series out of a realism and to a fictional world that we cant relate to anymore. And also, its amazing how blatantly it copied T2 step by step - http://www.dvdvision.fr/jco/T3special.htm. What I hate the most about it tho is Arnold being a Jar Jar Binks of the series and even moving like a cliche robot and most importantly John, as being a whiny, weak bum who...ah, just follow the link I gave you, its impossible to list even 1/100th of it

Salvation was an improvement in the sense that it wasnt a parody and didnt have nearly as many plotholes and corrected some embarassing mistakes of T3 (like T-101 designation), but was uninteresting and didnt feel like a Terminator movie at all. However as a separate scifi movie it makes for a fairly entertaining watch

[Spandau Belly]

[Peven]

T2 i simply can't stand (for the same reason i can't stand Aliens).
T3 had balls.
Salvation's lighting department was the least of it's problems.

The original pwns all.

holy shit, i agree with most of this post. the part where i differ is that I like Aliens, and it isn't that I "can't stand" T2 as much as I don't care for it all that much...

[Spandau Belly]

TERMINATOR 3 goes in the same boat as ALIEN 4, it's a transparent afterthought tack-on that was mildly entertaining as a tribute but designed to completely rob a series of any ability to engage or compel. It's entire plot is just one big undo of TERMINATOR 2's logical and uplifting conclusion.

You can prettymuch hear the studio execs sitting around the table talking about how TERMINATOR was a good cash cow that they felt hadn't been milked to death yet. This was before everything was being "rebooted" and so sequels were still considered the only acceptable way to milk a series in which the lead actor was still alive and working. But the trouble was that ending of T2 where they stop Judgement Day from happening. So T3 is just one long movie rehashing the same formula as the first two, but finding a way to make Judgement Day happen.

So I don't see T3's ending as ambitious or admirable. It's just a big cliffhanger to setup more sequels/money. It's no different than HIGHLANDER 2 inventing a bunch of rules so that MacLeod can become an immortal again and so that more immortals can show up and fight him.

So I will say the big apocalypse at the end of T3 that everybody admires so much is the Planet Ziest of the TERMINATOR series.

[King Of Nowhere]

It wasn't setting up a sequel as much as it was bringing it full circle.

Remember the shots of the future during the original? T3 kick-started that time-line.
T2 turned a "living" nightmare into jar jar by having him make pop culture references & copy whatever shit the kid is saying.
This thing that kills with no remorse is degraded to a 12 year old's sidekick.
and the kid, wtf?

Anyone bringing up studio bigwigs needs to think about the decision to have the main character in the sequel be a young boy.
The saviour of mankind as a teenage grunge stereotype.
A comedic action movie, rather than a sci-fi slasher.
How about Guns & Roses having the tie in music video (hair metal vs grunge?).
Not one, but 2 videogames based on the movie.

Then lets think about the fact that T2 undone everything established in the original.

[Fried Gold]

The original has always been my favorite ever since I saw it in 1984. I just love the constant feel of dread and danger, the ever present hum of the bass, the music, the cyberpunk look, the dark feel and the "Michael Myers-ness" of Arnold. Today its my #2 favorite movie of all time

Even tho I always loved original the most, theres no denying for a fact that T2 when it comes to writing and craft is a far superiror movie which literally blows my mind with its complexity and craftsmanship. Im a former film school student and I know that in at least 4 different film schools in the states T2 is used to learn from and in different departments such as script (correlation of themes, narrative symmetry, etc) , editing and lighting. I deeply admire the film and love it like crazy. If anyone wants to see how comples and well crafted it is, take a peek here - http://www.dvdvision.fr/jco/T2Complexity.htm

The third one is a movie that literally, and literally have plotholes, inconsistencies and things that dont make sense in every single scene, and its not an exageration. Every single scene - http://thejcoboard.46.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=126.The characters contradict themselves multiple times, and just nothing holds together and really, its amazing that its in every scene. its probably the worst written big budget movie I have ever seen in the sense that the logic and any kind of consistency is completely out the window. Also hated the ending as it took the series out of a realism and to a fictional world that we cant relate to anymore. And also, its amazing how blatantly it copied T2 step by step - http://www.dvdvision.fr/jco/T3special.htm. What I hate the most about it tho is Arnold being a Jar Jar Binks of the series and even moving like a cliche robot and most importantly John, as being a whiny, weak bum who...ah, just follow the link I gave you, its impossible to list even 1/100th of it

Salvation was an improvement in the sense that it wasnt a parody and didnt have nearly as many plotholes and corrected some embarassing mistakes of T3 (like T-101 designation), but was uninteresting and didnt feel like a Terminator movie at all. However as a separate scifi movie it makes for a fairly entertaining watch

Those links are rather good.

Salvation, I think, perhaps started out with a good idea and was willing to actually do something new and not entirely related to the previous three movies. There was script floating around on IMDB ages ago from the time after Mostow left and McG joined - John Connor not being the centre of attention, Arnold not being involved, new characters in a new environment - but it seemed to just end up with all this cliche Terminator stuff tacked on.

[Al Shut]

None of this answer the most important question

why the hell do I see German titles in the poll?

[Spandau Belly]

Naw KON, T2 just built on the original and concluded it. The first one was about preparing for Judgement Day, the second one was about stopping Judgement Day from happening at all. Logical escalation. The only semi-contradiction with the first one is Reese saying something about destroying the time portal machine and nobody else getting through, but I can rationalize that one away pretty easy with the very reasonable explaination that if they built it once they could build it again or that the machines had another one somewhere else and he didn't know about it.

As for Terminator becoming a goofy sidekick who just spouts oneliners, I think that's a huge exageration. We aren't meant to fear Arnie in this one, we're meant to fear for him, and to me that's pretty clever. He still displays incredible power throughout the film. Sure, there's a bit of comedy between John and the Terminator where he teaches him to cuss in an effort to act more human, but definately nothing on the level of T3's "Talk to the hand".

And I really like the depiction of John as a confused weak screwup kid. Cameron could've made him a few years older, made him a fully-formed ultimate badass ready to jump into action when his destiny shows up. Hell, he could've made Jonh one of The Warriors or something. But Cameron was more interested in character arcs, showing John rising to his destiny, and showing that his humanity is what would make him a great leader, not his ability with guns or something so concrete. The movie continually shows John making tough decisions a developing the theme of strength of character over strength of weapons. Although at the start he seems like a typical teenager who likes hearing his pet robot cuss, we quickly see his future greatness in the form of his devotion to his mother, his valuing of human life (ordering the Terminator not kill anybody), his use of reason to persuade Dyson.

The movie is about humanity, and so obviously it's easy to mock, but I think that makes deeper than any other movie that can be descirbed with the words "killer robots".

[Cpt Kirks 2pay]

The acting in Terminator 2 is AWFUL.

[so sorry]

The acting in Terminator 2 is AWFUL.

Yeah I pretty much agree with this statement. Don't get me wrong, I love me some T2, but it is not a "great" film. Its fun, that's for sure. But best of the series? No, that would firmly belong to the original.

[The Vicar]

Joe Morton was good, as usual. Robert Patrick did good with his role. Otherwise....... fail.

[minstrel]

I thought Edward Furlong did a good job, for a first-time kid actor. And I didn't find too much wrong with the other performances. Methinks you're just looking for problems where there aren't any. T2 is a pretty good film - nowhere near as good as the first, but that's what happens with sequels, usually (Toy Story 2 is a big exception!).

[Nachokoolaid]

T2 is a better sequel to Terminator than Toy Story 2 is to Toy Story, by far.

[Peven]

no it isn't

[Nachokoolaid]

T2 completely changed the dynamic from the original. Toy Story 2 was just, "Hey look kids, it's Woody and Buzz again!"

Now, if you would have said Toy Story 3, I think you'd have at least the semblance of an argument.

[King Of Nowhere]

T2 completely changed the dynamic from the original. Toy Story 2 was just, "Hey look kids, it's Woody and Buzz again!"

Now, if you would have said Toy Story 3, I think you'd have at least the semblance of an argument.

Toy Story 2 stayed true to the characters & tone established in the original.

[Nachokoolaid]

T2 completely changed the dynamic from the original. Toy Story 2 was just, "Hey look kids, it's Woody and Buzz again!"

Now, if you would have said Toy Story 3, I think you'd have at least the semblance of an argument.

Toy Story 2 stayed true to the characters & tone established in the original.

Slavishly. By rehashing the film, nearly exactly. No thanks. It took me many viewings to just get where I could watch Toy Story 2. It seemed like the most blatant "cash in" that Pixar has done, and, while it's not a bad film, I'm honestly only glad it exists so there could be Toy Story 3.

[Cpt Kirks 2pay]

Dude I'm not looking for mistakes in a film where there aren't any, that film completely screamed SHIT OTT ACTING AND AWFUL LAUGHABLE LINE DELIVERY ETC ETC. It's blatant and in your face as far as I'm concerned. So I don't need to be told that I'm thinking some other shit.

[magicmonkey]

Now, that Terminator 2 arcade game was the bollocks.

[minstrel]

T2 completely changed the dynamic from the original. Toy Story 2 was just, "Hey look kids, it's Woody and Buzz again!"

Now, if you would have said Toy Story 3, I think you'd have at least the semblance of an argument.

Toy Story 2 stayed true to the characters & tone established in the original.

Slavishly. By rehashing the film, nearly exactly. No thanks. It took me many viewings to just get where I could watch Toy Story 2. It seemed like the most blatant "cash in" that Pixar has done, and, while it's not a bad film, I'm honestly only glad it exists so there could be Toy Story 3.

I don't get this at all. Toy Story was simple. A toy has to deal with being a toy - that's the drama. Toy Story 2 was a leap - what is the purpose of a toy, when the kid is outgrowing him? That's a powerful theme, and very different from the first film. Toy Story 3 is merely a completion of Toy Story 2 - no leap, just more of the same.

Toy Story 2 is, along with the Iron Giant, the most thematically moving animated film I've ever seen. Nacho, if you think it's just "Woody and Buzz again", you need to really watch it again.

[GothamAlleys]

It wasn't setting up a sequel as much as it was bringing it full circle.

No, actually they already had a sequel in mind while filming T3 and originally Mostow and Stahl were suppose to return, there was plenty of talk about it form the studio and Mostow. Theres nothing poetic in T3 as the writers admittedly never even liked Terminator movies and admitted they wrote it cause one of them needed a better house, and Mostow on the audio commentary admits that he doesnt even know why Terminators arrive naked and calls the franchise preposterous and silly, thats why he said he infused so much humor because he said stuff like that cant be taken seriously. Not to mention he didnt even see the first movie

Remember the shots of the future during the original? T3 kick-started that time-line.

I remember those and weve seen skulls lying around and extensive fighting. What we see in T3 are incorrectly rendered endoskeletons shooting at nothing (as theres no evidence of anyone there except for themselves and no signs of returned fire). T2 showed an even more horrific image by presenting children playing on the playground and then showing that playground destroyed filled with skulls, with delicate and faint sound of children's playing while the camera pans on it. What we saw in the first 2 movies are horrific scenarios and war as oppose to cool CGI shootout of the endos and CG explosions

T2 turned a "living" nightmare into jar jar by having him make pop culture references & copy whatever shit the kid is saying.
This thing that kills with no remorse is degraded to a 12 year old's sidekick.

T-800 was never a comedic figure in the movie.We never laughed at him and the humor was very subtle, like in the first movie. Cameron specifically said that he taken out the smiling scene because he didnt want laugh at the expense of the terminator. And he was never repeating everything John has been saying, he only used it ONCE in the entire movie after John was teaching him sayings, and that served a purpose to show both bonding, not humor.

Changing the sides with Terminator was something never successfully done with a character except for Star Wars, in which the most evil and darkest villain actually makes us shed a tear. And T2 achieved that incredible goal by having us feel sad and sorry for an unstoppable killing machine, a great move which is very impressive. The Terminator is positive, yet never hilarious or funny, always stoic and preserved in continuity by shown how ruthless he is (just pulling out a gun trying to kill a guy or nailing a guy with his back and knife to a table) and in the way hes shot and presented. Theres a slow change and progress that starts in the middle of the movie, but theres never mistaken for what the guy is. The first time we see T-800 is someone who visible looks angry and who doesnt respond to the biker's laugh and then wrecks havoc upon everyone. It was even a conscious decision to shot him in the first half from the low angles with cold light to accent his nature. Any comic relief concerning T-800 doesnt appear until midway through the film

Yet in T3 the first time we see T-850 is when he gets a glove thrown in his face and when he only grabs an overly flamboyant Dumbledore person by his hands and talks to it like an idiot! And the next shot following that? Arnold and the Elton John glasses. Joke, joke and joke.

Not to mention in T2 the sunglasses were a storytelling, poetic device - when Terminator was cold and ruthless he had sunglasses on to hide his eyes and reinforce his inhumanity, then he looses them just before he starts to learn and change. Of course sunglasses in T3 were just for a comedy shticks


Theres even more to the switch of the T-800's sides than all that just listed, but the reason even goes much deeper than that, since T2 is such marvel when it comes to storytelling and complexity. It was also to present the theme of the movie, the interchanging characters. As the movie progresses, Sarah becomes the Terminator while he becomes a human being. He starts to learn and understand the value of life while she dons sunglasses , takes a red sighted weapon and goes on to kill a man with cold blood and single minded purpose, loosing her humanity. And it's partly through the Terminator's transformation that she understands what humanity really is.

T3 on the other hand was nothing else rather than an incredibly goofy and stupid comic relief ala Jar Jar Binks. He understand nothing and is doing and saying stupid things every single time hes onscreen. He literally talks to the hand - yet T-800 in T2 didnt say please when asked by the biker. The T-850 has to drop a dumb comment after every single line, like "unable to comply" when asked to drop dead or "I lied", or "we need a new vehicle". Not to mention he constantly moves like a stuff robot, whipping his head to the sides and then walking to that directions. The terminators in the first movies turned smoothly and gracefully. Not to mention the ridiculous superhero strength or silly affection for sunglasses. He couldnt even properly supply John and Kate with food like water or bread, but randomly packed potato chips, twinkies and gumballs. Or when hes just standing there with a gun aimed just looking at Brewster getting killed and shooting TX only after she finishes. The list goes on, after all JCO has 15 pages long thread on all the stupidity he does and tit still goes on , because he was by design suppose to be

and the kid, wtf?

Anyone bringing up studio bigwigs needs to think about the decision to have the main character in the sequel be a young boy

.

It was important to show that he was extremely skilled in such young age as 10, and that he was indeed an exceptional character. Little John never got traumatized by his life or depressed, but instead is shown right away as someone who doesnt take orders but decides for himself and is a leader. Someone who already has incredible driving and hacking skills, so someone skilled in different areas. He is then shown to master all kinds of things, and is shown to know how to prepare and reload every weapon. Then theres his rational thinking and the fact that he becomes the father figure of the 3 and hes already thinking on a tactical level and taking charge when crap happens - he decides to break out his mother from the hospital and sticks to it, he decides to stop her from killing Dyson, he stops both her and T-800 from killing and constantly reminds her to be more constructive and focus on the problem and the list goes on. Then there are his psychological skills when he first takes charge of his mother in the garage scene. He explains all the disadvantages and advantages and doesnt force her to put the hammer down, instead throws a line about trust and uncovers the chip, leaving it to be her choice.

The saviour of mankind as a teenage grunge stereotype.

Which is a poetic continuation of what the first fim established, that the most important person in the world doesnt seem to be what we would expect (on the surface), which would be a clean cut, military, well behaved genius nerd. Just like with Sarah being a flimsy waitress on the surface

As for Stahls' Connor, its THE most annoying and pathetic movie character Ive ever seen. Where is the continuation of the progress from the first 2 movies? Sarah was significantly stronger in the second, she didnt revert back to being a screaming frightened girl, and thats what Stahl is here. No leadership skills, whining and stupidity all the way. Wheres John who was directing both Sarah and T-800, who coped with the whole thing excellent, who had all the technical skills and was even a moral and psychological support for his mother, constantly taking charge and accepting his role. Now we have John who looks like a bum, gets his but tossed by everyone and acts like Scooby Doo. When the mini HK flies towards him and Kate, all he does is hide under his hands and look scared, while its a veterinarian that actually thinks and does something by picking up a gun and blasting it away. Not to mention, if this whiny bum really doesnt believe that the war was over, why is he still in LA then? He says he never really believed that Judgment Day had been averted? Really? John seemed quite convinced in the pickup truck, when he insisted that the T-850 shouldn't even exist. But if he really didn't believe it, why the hell was he living somewhere that was GUARANTEED to be nuked to oblivion in the event of nuclear war? Not only that, but it's the ONE place Skynet knows where to look for him. If he thought there was even the slightest chance of Skynet still rising to power, he should have moved anywhere EXCEPT Los Angeles. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
And living off the grid is one thing, but that doesn't mean he has to be homeless. We instantly see his stupidity and recklessness and complete lack of any skills right from the beginning, when we see him "running from an unwanted future" by driving at night on a winding highway with blind turns at excessive speed, because getting into an accident or getting pulled over by a police officer won't create a paper trail, right? John Connor pays for his recklessness by crashing his motorcycle in an attempt to avoid a deer. What is wrong with this John Connor? At age 10, he was handling a motorcycle far better than he is now. There's a definite line between taking calculated risks and being reckless, and John Connor definitely crossed that line somewhere between T2 and T3.

Everything John Connor says in the back of that pickup truck reveals that he's just along for the ride, metaphorically as well as literally. The John Connor in T2 was quick to take command and make decisions. He didn't wait for the T-800 to do it all for him. John made the decision to warn Todd and Janelle. John made the decision to rescue his mother. John made the decision to try to save Miles Dyson. But now in T3 we have a John Connor who clearly is no longer leadership material. He's not making any useful decisions. Where the T2 John Connor would move, the T3 John Connor hesitates. Where the T2 John Connor would take charge, the T3 John Connor merely follows. Where the T2 John Connor was concerned about other people, the T3 John Connor doesn't even take his own dire situation seriously. The situation is enough of a joke to him that he doesn't make the slightest attempt to make Kate understand. Instead, he chooses a course of action guaranteed to increase her hostility toward him.

A comedic action movie, rather than a sci-fi slasher.

I hate comedies. Its just not my type of a thing, and I dont see any comedy at all in T2 aside from subtle and occasional comic relief. What T2 is known for is the moral depth and characters and the dread of nuclear holocaust. Sarah talking about children burning like paper, being left alone by everyone, with son rejecting her, and being treated like an animal and physically abused - thats some heart breaking and heavy stuff. John eventually dropping the col pose and showing the caring , very self controlling and level headed son he is, Dyson sacrificing his entire family and life, just like Sarah, for great good and the theme of not just dropping hands and waiting for doom but actually taking action

Lets take a look at that humor. Compared to the first 2 films, many have noticed the humor levels in T3 were off the chart. Some say the seeds were started from T2, although I disagree. The differences between both styles of inducing humor

The Terminator

There was little funny about the situation , but Cameron did manage to take the oddness/creepiness of the situations and make very dry tidbits of humor.

- The boyfriend reciting his dirty lines over the phone to 2 women after accidentally talking to Sarah.

- Traxler asks for a Smokey Thingie when he already has one in his hand.

- Traxler and Vukovich trade barbs about his appearance before seeing reporters.

- Vukovich story about this guy and his Afghan as they interrogate Reese through the glass.

- "You got a dead cat in there?" and response.

Terminator 2

If you have just enough humor, it compliments the films dark tone and doesnt override it. This is the fine line walked by T2. Since there was a child in this one, the child would logically be the outsider to all of this heavy plot from the first film, so this was used to help the audience relate again to the story from an outsiders POV. Then it also became Arnolds flagship franchise. Under the direction of Cameron, he acknowledged this fact, while keeping him in total character.

- Blink and youd miss it: Arnold scans the bikers beard.

- Bad to the Bone. A wink at Arnolds fame in this role. It works because the minimalist way in which he carjacks and steals the heavy guys glasses and gun is just smooth. Were focusing more on this than anything.

- Dr Silberman's sarcastic comment to the hospital cameras: "Model citizen."

- You got a quarter?

- Silberman dropping the needle cap from mouth after seeing T-1000.

- Arnold grabbing John into the garage before the shutters.

- "Chill out, ....wad" and "No problemo." Once again, from the kid and quickly dismissed.

- Enrique offering Arnold a drink.

- Arnold examining the baby. Humor based on there being little to no children left in the future hes from, therefore discovering it for the first time. Its funny, and its smartly foreboding at the same time.

- "trust me". Throwback to the kneecap shooting. Maiming time.

- "Here, hold this". Hes gassing a man during this by removing his mask.

- "You hurt?" Battle damaged terminator closeup simultaneously.

- Bumper sticker that reads "Praise the lord" as they race off in that small pickup. In context, the lord isnt helping any of them, a dark joke.

- "I need a vacation". This was Arnold's idea. This spontaneous joke style will become prevalent in T3.

Camerons rule of humor: Never let the audience forget the heaviness of the overall story as youre tossing in a little joke. Hes quite masterful at humor without breaking the tone imo.

Terminator 3

In many peoples opinion, the new level this film reached was returning many familiar sequences of the first 2 films, with a humorous spin on them, thus turning the humor onto entire scenes of the classic films, which can be seen as too far. Entire characters in the film felt more like a dig at the saga.

- Chest enlargement

- "I like your gun"

- The cartoonishly happy strip club with Dumbledore stripper. The entire sequence can be seen as a parody/spoof of the bar from T2:

*Scanning the womans bra and a gigantic font reading inappropriate.

*Cartoonish acting by all beside Arnold.

*Glove slaps face.

- Funky glasses

- "I lied"

- "This guy weighs a ton"

- The over the top angry guy who got hit from behind. This routine had to be on purpose. Reguardless it was funny. His car gets smashed after, completing the skit.

- Knocking the kiddy pool and its toys into the street with the boing sound.

- Arnold knocking a bums cart of cans down.

- The squeak of the crane hook after the firetruck slaps arnold with a doink.

- The look of Arnold and the firemen after he hits their windshield. "Ill drive".

The sequences goal was to destroy everything in their path in a farce manner. The perfect fertile ground for some jokes to be placed in.

- Inside the car routine:
*Arnold grabbing John and essentially fondling his face for a while as he makes funny faces.

*Drop dead and I am unable to comply.

*Relax!

All made funnier by the actions of all involved and rhythm of the scene.

- Yet another comedy routine. Arnold grabbing junk food and slapping them into the basket and "talk to the hand". The resulting "funky man" music (???)

- Back in the car, more fun with the slot to the front cabin.

- "Dont do that"

- When the mausoleum is gassed. Arnolds body language as he drops John. "Better"

- Dr Silberman returns merely to flex his comic skills. His speech about imagining things is called deadpan humor. We are supposed to laugh as we realize he has been traumatized as well. When he sees Arnold, he LITERALLY runs for the hills in a funny manner! I laughed so hard at this scene it was sick. LOL

- Arnold and his trusty coffin. The SWAT even blatantly makes a suggestion about how ludicrous it is, hesitating comedically before telling him to drop it. Its a roast of Arnolds "bringer of death" role as the terminator in all of the films.

- "Shes your wife" and how Arnold immediately punches the gas as John stares at him in disbelief.

- "We need a new vehicle", and the horrified expressions of John and Kate as they whiz by the camera. Another gold moment in comedy. LOL

- The door falling off of the hearse as Arnold gets out.

- Arnold and Nicks routine on breeding. Arns humorous body language says it all here. Its a skit. Theres always 1 serious guy and 1 goofball. Much like those old Jerry Lewis and Dean Martin shows.

- "Youre a mess." "Youre not exactly my type either." and Kates delivery/John's facial reaction.

- "Your levity is good. It relieves tension, and the fear of death." I know for a fact that this line particularly got to Nick and Claire, as it was just over the top. The commentary states that a second after the cut, theyd bust out laughing without fail.

- Hoisting arnold by the crotch as a battering ram like a bugs bunny cartoon. Complete with exaggerated leather crinkle sound and a kung fu whoosh as she swings him.

After this, the humor ceases essentially, save for some toon sound effects at the worst moments possible. Doinks and such.

Last but not least, lets not forget the deleted scene of T3, which even Mostow realized was a sketch. he seems to have a pattern of not realizing just how funny his routines are until theyre filmed.

We know Jim edited a T2 scene out which had the terminator making a smile for a few seconds imitating another person, but he edited this out. Which edited scene am I worried about the most here? Its certainly not the director who was smart enough to delete a mildly out of place awkward smile from T2 im concerned about. Its the guy who resembled a Mad TV sketch and only then did he realize he went too far.

Arnold is basically sending the franchise a goodbye tribute, with less acting simply as a bodyguard and more of Arnolds sense of humor prevalent. If he stated anything with this performance it was "I am the terminator, and I own this franchise. Im so comfortable with the role now i can goof around because everyone knows its me anyway."

Silberman became a complete joke of a character here as well. Hes a wreck of a man pretending to be an upright doctor.

So now after breaking down the humor in the entire saga, which film was the funniest of the three films so far? Is this a good or bad thing? Which film had a sense of parody?

How about Guns & Roses having the tie in music video (hair metal vs grunge?).
Not one, but 2 videogames based on the movie.

So? By that point every action and scifi movie had tie ins, it wants about the movie. Original Robobocp was heavy in gore and Resurrection story, yet it had action figures, comics and video games. Same goes for Freddy Krueger. The original terminator had pop rock songs too which arent that known because they werent made by a big band, and had tons of video games as well. Whats wrong with that? At the time, R rated, children inappropriate movies were marketed as much as Disney movies

Then lets think about the fact that T2 undone everything established in the original.

It undone anything and only built on it adding dread. The only thing it undone is predictability and a rehash, as its a much, much more complex story - even tho I like original better Im not crazy and since Im in the field I know for a fact that this IS a much superior work. I just find it amazing that someone would think of it as some comedy action while what most people get from it is intense action and the depth of the characters. When I think T2 I always think of the crying Sarah at the picnic table, bathed in a sad sunset

On the other hand T3 is loitered with jokes all the way throughout and never takes itself seriously, even when the situation really calls for it. For example:Stahl's lame effort to explain everything to Kate who he is is to knock on the side of the truck and have the Terminator tell Kate who John is. And then say that hes a robot from the future and deliver a stupid grin. Remember Reese's intense and awakening explanation of who the assassin is and whats going on? And in T2, when Miles Dyson had no idea what was going on, John Connor instantly knew what to do to get him to understand. A few seconds with a pocketknife and one robot arm later, Miles Dyson was an instant believer. So how is it now that John Connor can only babble vague nonsense? Why couldn't he knock on the cab and have the T-850 pull over to prove what it is? It would have been even easier with the T-850. Since the chest was already disfigured, all the T-850 had to do was lift its shirt and open the fuel cell compartment. That should have easily proved that the T-850 was a robot, at which point Kate might have been more willing to listen to John. But no, it's better to piss her off and make her as uncooperative as possible.

Not to mention the villains are stupid as well. One quick example out f millions - Kate is running to hug her "fiance", and instead of opening his arms to greet and kill her with a stab or punch, TX reverts back to the default form right i front of Kate! Not to mention in the car there were 2 dead cops armed with pistols which TX used before, yet didnt bother to take even one now and shoot Kate, instead opted to FIRST reveal itself then to start powering super slow plasma

Naw KON, T2 just built on the original and concluded it. The first one was about preparing for Judgement Day, the second one was about stopping Judgement Day from happening at all. Logical escalation. The only semi-contradiction with the first one is Reese saying something about destroying the time portal machine and nobody else getting through, but I can rationalize that one away pretty easy with the very reasonable explaination that if they built it once they could build it again or that the machines had another one somewhere else and he didn't know about it.

Actually thats not the case. Reese simply couldnt know if they blew it up if he went first. he was just said the place would be destroyed but never witnessed it. besides, the war was over before Reese went through as stated in the movie, the T2 script and T2 novelization. What happened was that Skynet sent 2 terminators back in time at once, and after Reese was sent back and gone, they went to the cold storage in Skynet's facility and reprogrammed and sent the T-800. naturally, Reese couldnt have been told that. More here - http://www.dvdvision.fr/jco/T2FAQ.htm (Im tellin you JCO is the best!)

And if someone thinks its a retcon, its not. T2 was always part of the story, and T1 and T2 were always one, complete and finished story. The very first story for Terminator had the T-800 destroyed in the middle of the movie and then a shapeshifting T-1000 prototype coming in after. When the story was too big and the shapeshifting couldnt have been done, the second half of the story was taken out and in 1985 reshaped to be another movie instead, with reprogrammed T-800 and a boy Connor(although for legal reasons, the story wasnt turned into script and filmed until 1990). Still, one line of dialogue remained i the hotel scene in the script in which Reese says that one more couldve been sent along the T-800, even tho it didnt make the movie. So the T2 was ALWAYS there, and finally realized in 1991

[Cpt Kirks 2pay]

silentscream...

Will you marry me?

[Seppuku]

tl;dr

[so sorry]

silentscream...

Will you marry me?

Hey Kirks, check again.

[SilentScream]

silentscream...

Will you marry me?

Yes. As long as you go on top ok?





Oh, btw GothamAlleys. What the fuck was that post!? A post-modernist thesis or something? Are you an avid Cahiers du Cinema reader?

[Spandau Belly]

Yeah, great post GothamAlley.

Welcome to The Zone.

[Fried Gold]

Now, that Terminator 2 arcade game was bollocks.

Fixed.

[GothamAlleys]

Oh, btw GothamAlleys. What the fuck was that post!? A post-modernist thesis or something? Are you an avid Cahiers du Cinema reader?

Haha no, none of that is my interpetation. All those depth elements were mentioned at one point or the other by either Cameron, Van Ling (creative consultant on T2 now a DVD producer) or Joseph Nemec III (production designer). Ive read it all on JamesCameronOnline, I cant take credit for finding it all by myself

Welcome to The Zone.

Thanks!

[Fried Gold]

I assume you've seen all of the documentary stuff on the DVD? The Ultimate Edition had about 5 years of material on it.

[GothamAlleys]

Actually Im ashamed to say I dont own UE but Extreme edition instead, but I did see most of the specials on it

[Spandau Belly]

I don't watch a lot of special features. I think when I first got the ultimate edition T2 DVD I watched some stuff but not again since. And that was in the late 90s. I remember it was mostly about the special effects and it was interesting to see how they balanced practical effects, CGI, and other stuff like old school stop motion.

I think the talks with the cast and the crew was just your usual self-congratulatory timewaster special feature. "We knew we were making something great blah blah blah..." I don't recall the actors having anything worthwhile to say. I think the most interesting insights were where Cameron discusses the different cuts of the film to keep the pace up. I think most people agree that the theatrical cut is by far the best, so it's pretty interesting how they shaped that cut out of the longer cuts. I do think they should've left in that scene were Sarah takes out the Terminator's brain and John stops her from smashing it, but I guess thematically that's just a rehash of John stopping her from killing Dyson so it's a somewhat redundant scene.

[Cpt Kirks 2pay]

silentscream...

Will you marry me?

Hey Kirks, check again.

Silentscream, I don't mean to break your heart, you're an OK guy and all that, but, I need my ring back. There's a guy on the Empire State building who is waiting for me, and well, basically I gotta do a Sleepless in Seattle and dump you to run off with GothamAlleys, K?

[Fried Gold]

Actually Im ashamed to say I dont own UE but Extreme edition instead, but I did see most of the specials on it

I think the Extreme Edition may have replaced some of the extra features for a disc with an HD copy (that could only be played on a computer with a certain version of Windows Media Player, and it had to be authorised via Microsoft's servers every time you wanted to watch and hence everyone complained it never played).

...anywho, get an Ultimate Edition on Ebay cheap - it has some of the most comprehensive documentary materials of any film so if you're fan it's the disc to have.

[GothamAlleys]

I don't watch a lot of special features.

I love em. In most cases theyre so good that I would buy the DVD for them and them alone, Im just really a special features guy. But most of that whole depth and character building thing and complexity is really best explained in the text commentary by Van Ling (Cameron's friend who worked as creative consultant on Abyss, T2 and Titanic) and by Jim Cameron on the audio commentary. I always loved T2 but once in film school they showed the subliminal messaging and visuals of it my jaw dropped. And then when I saw it mentioned too on DVD, finding out that its noe just someone's interpretation but a conscious confirmed move, I began researching on this movie. The scene Im talking about in particular is the Hasta La Vista moment.According to the T2 extreme DVD text commentary, since it was a very human moment for T-800 and the moment when a human side shines, his damaged, mechanical side is in the shadow, and is lit with cold blue, and the human side is in the light lit with warm orange colors.

Amazing isnt it?

I think most people agree that the theatrical cut is by far the best

Nah, definitely not me. I think they cut out some crucial and terrific stuff. Sarah's dream gave us a glimpse inside of her, showing that despite her stance , inside shes hurting and shes broken and shows us a touching sort of "reunion" with Reese, we also dont get to see that Sarah's getting physically abused which adds enormously to her pathos, we dont get to see that Dyson is a good family man in the introduction of the character, we dont get to see John taking charge and showing his psychological skills during the chip removal scene and we dont understand clearly why T-1000 doesnt call John himself since hes not shown as being damaged and glitching

...anywho, get an Ultimate Edition on Ebay cheap - it has some of the most comprehensive documentary materials of any film so if you're fan it's the disc to have.

Now youve done it. Now Im Im gonna have to go and buy it!

[Cpt Kirks 2pay]

I don't watch a lot of special features.

I love em. In most cases theyre so good that I would buy the DVD for them and them alone, Im just really a special features guy. But most of that whole depth and character building thing and complexity is really best explained in the text commentary by Van Ling (Cameron's friend who worked as creative consultant on Abyss, T2 and Titanic) and by Jim Cameron on the audio commentary. I always loved T2 but once in film school they showed the subliminal messaging and visuals of it my jaw dropped. And then when I saw it mentioned too on DVD, finding out that its noe just someone's interpretation but a conscious confirmed move, I began researching on this movie. The scene Im talking about in particular is the Hasta La Vista moment.According to the T2 extreme DVD text commentary, since it was a very human moment for T-800 and the moment when a human side shines, his damaged, mechanical side is in the shadow, and is lit with cold blue, and the human side is in the light lit with warm orange colors.

Amazing isnt it?

Sheet. Fark yeah! You're well right there, I would never have known it! It makes me think that frustrating thought that makes me feel quite shallow when it comes to movies' visuals. I mean all that symbolism and expressionistic stuff, that just goes right over my head. I mean, this thing here you pointed out, to me it just is lighting. You know, you do what you gotta do to light a scene to just make it look right, but no way would I have spotted all that thought and concentration into how it's trying to tell you something or make you feel something.

Looks like I need to go back to American Cinematographer. That magazine talked all sorts of stuff like that that I would never have picked up on.

Anyway, maybe Chris Bale should read a few copies himself, then he'd know that DOP's hidden agenda - he WANTED the audience to feel your anger more in his shot! Not enough red light could do it so he walked in your shot to get you wound you up more! He IS a 'Director' of Photography after all.

[Retardo_Montalban]

we dont understand clearly why T-1000 doesnt call John himself since hes not shown as being damaged and glitching

What the hell? There's an explanation for this? I always wondered why the T-1000 doesn't just off Sarah and morph into her immediately.

[GothamAlleys]

we dont understand clearly why T-1000 doesnt call John himself since hes not shown as being damaged and glitching

What the hell? There's an explanation for this? I always wondered why the T-1000 doesn't just off Sarah and morph into her immediately.

There are 2 reasons

1. The glitching. Hes damaged and we see that hes not properly mimicking anymore, and in another deleted shot we see that this glitch in the system gives him away
2. T-1000 simply learned that he himself cant fool John because he tried before with Jeanelle and John could tell the difference in the behavior and tone, suspecting something even before he knew about T-1000 abilities. He needed the real thing to be convincing to lure John. And even when then after he calls John while hes imitating the hurt Sarah, John suddenly stops dead in his track and feels that something's wrong, even before the second Sarah appears behind him and even before he notices the grill feet. So the T-1000 knew the kid can sense the trick

Going back to that cinematography moment again, its indeed amazing what some directors can do and it always sometimes flies over my head, but its really not done often. Cameron never went to film school and learned how to make movies by studying Kubrick's movies for several years and then reading tons of books on the techniques that Kubrick's used, so naturally hes movies are full of depth, art and subliminal messaging in visuals, whether its interior design, shadows or cars as well. Oh and the sound too. Theres a growl of a lion added to the sound of T-1000's tanker put there in order to subliminally add the element of danger. Masterful craft

Again, most of this stuff is collected here - http://www.dvdvision.fr/jco/T2Complexity.htm

[magicmonkey]

Going back to that cinematography moment again, its indeed amazing what some directors can do and it always sometimes flies over my head, but its really not done often. Cameron never went to film school and learned how to make movies by studying Kubrick's movies for several years and then reading tons of books on the techniques that Kubrick's used, so naturally hes movies are full of depth, art and subliminal messaging in visuals, whether its interior design, shadows or cars as well. Oh and the sound too. Theres a growl of a lion added to the sound of T-1000's tanker put there in order to subliminally add the element of danger. Masterful craft

Again, most of this stuff is collected here - http://www.dvdvision.fr/jco/T2Complexity.htm

I wouldn't say subliminal, rather subconscious, its there just like the annoying product placement. Just like McDonalds is painted Red and Yellow to keep you alert, eat quick and get out. Some notice, some don't, either way the message is understood. Breaking down scenes and analysing their construction is a fascinating part of enjoying movies.

[Spandau Belly]

Nah, definitely not me. I think they cut out some crucial and terrific stuff.

I think most of the stuff that got cut, was mostly redundant. It drove home stuff that was shown in other scenes.

Sarah's dream gave us a glimpse inside of her, showing that despite her stance , inside shes hurting and shes broken and shows us a touching sort of "reunion" with Reese,

Yes, Reese does get completely cut, but I don't think we the audience ever fail to sympathize with Sarah despite her militant and seemingly unhinged exterior. And we do get part of that dream in the theatrical cut. We see the part with her banging on the fence while children play and a nuke drops behind them and I think this is the perfect poetic expression of her Cassandra complex that we see literally in her interactions with Dr Silbermann.

we also dont get to see that Sarah's getting physically abused which adds enormously to her pathos,

Dr. Silbermann is very condescending to her and even sadistic in telling her he's going to lock her up away from her son. We also get that part where the creepy guard guy licks her. Her situation in the mental institution is clearly pure torture, I don't think we need to see her get punched to deliver that message any further.

we dont get to see that Dyson is a good family man in the introduction of the character,

I think this is another case where the actors did a good enough job that the audience gets it without having to see it. Dyson's family seems really close and he seems affectionate with his son, so I don't think we need more scenes of them cuddling to know they're a good family.

we dont get to see John taking charge and showing his psychological skills during the chip removal scene

This was the one scene I would've left in. But we do get John standing up to his mother by stopping her from killing Dyson. We also see John's humanity in his ability to reason with Dyson whereas his mother would've just killed him. So I can see the logic in cutting it. But I really like that scene.

and we dont understand clearly why T-1000 doesnt call John himself since hes not shown as being damaged and glitching

I will agree with your own explaination that the T-1000 couldn't fool John earlier when he pretended to be his guardianmother and so he tries getting the real Sarah to do it in her own voice before impersonating her himself.

[GothamAlleys]

You have some good point about the cut scenes not being crucial when you present it this way, and I would agree with all aside from the physical abuse of Sarah. I dont think the TC hints it enough yet it adds tremendously lot to the tragedy of her sad life. Still, while not absolutely necessary, I feel all of those deleted scenes are really great and compliment the movie big way. Once I saw the Special Edition I never saw the TC again.

I will agree with your own explaination that the T-1000 couldn't fool John earlier when he pretended to be his guardianmother and so he tries getting the real Sarah to do it in her own voice before impersonating her himself.

Its not mine actually, I cant take credit for that. Its from special features on Extreme as well

[Cpt Kirks 2pay]

So who can tell me where the scene is where in the future the humans raid the Terminator factory ad 'kidnap' one of the machines themselves, who of course they send back through time? Years before the extended edition came out, I heard loads of talk about this scene and that we would get to see it one day.

It's a bit like the scene in Cameron's other movie, Aliens. There is a shot scene of Ripley confronting a cocooned Burke when she goes back for Newt. I always wanted or expected to see that scene in the uncut version but never did.

[SilentScream]

silentscream...

Will you marry me?

Hey Kirks, check again.

Silentscream, I don't mean to break your heart, you're an OK guy and all that, but, I need my ring back. There's a guy on the Empire State building who is waiting for me, and well, basically I gotta do a Sleepless in Seattle and dump you to run off with GothamAlleys, K?

That's ok. I understand. I'm cool about that. I'll just drown my sorrows and watch Brokeback Mountain and dream of what could've been.


And as for your ring, it's in the local pawn shop.

[GothamAlleys]

So who can tell me where the scene is where in the future the humans raid the Terminator factory ad 'kidnap' one of the machines themselves, who of course they send back through time? Years before the extended edition came out, I heard loads of talk about this scene and that we would get to see it one day.

It's a bit like the scene in Cameron's other movie, Aliens. There is a shot scene of Ripley confronting a cocooned Burke when she goes back for Newt. I always wanted or expected to see that scene in the uncut version but never did.

It was scripted and storyboarded (to a point ) but never shot. They enter a pitch black cryogenic storage (its described that theres darkness everywhere as machines dont need lights, and also no door knobs and no human friendly equipment) filled with hundreds of terminators, each row with different appearance

It also ended up in the novelization and the comic adaptation of the extended T2 script (released in connection with Lightstorm)

[Fried Gold]

So who can tell me where the scene is where in the future the humans raid the Terminator factory ad 'kidnap' one of the machines themselves, who of course they send back through time? Years before the extended edition came out, I heard loads of talk about this scene and that we would get to see it one day.

It's a bit like the scene in Cameron's other movie, Aliens. There is a shot scene of Ripley confronting a cocooned Burke when she goes back for Newt. I always wanted or expected to see that scene in the uncut version but never did.

It was scripted and storyboarded (to a point ) but never shot. They enter a pitch black cryogenic storage (its described that theres darkness everywhere as machines dont need lights, and also no door knobs and no human friendly equipment) filled with hundreds of terminators, each row with different appearance

It also ended up in the novelization and the comic adaptation of the extended T2 script (released in connection with Lightstorm)

That scene was also considered for use in Terminator 3.

And something similar was in an early draft of Salvation...but then you saw what McG made of Skynet.

[GothamAlleys]

Oh yes. He turned what would be a cold, faceless computer processing a self inflicted order to eradicate humanity due to "error" in our nature (aka self destructive tendencies) into a cliche, James bond type of a villain with pesky attitude and a very big mouth. Not to mention changing Cameron's steel and dark cyber pyramids into some kind of robot city which inside looked like an office, with chairs and keyboards and white bright lights