The Great STAR WARS Discussion Thread

[Cpt Kirks 2pay]

Mifune is one powerful scary motherfucker of an actor. Shame he didn't get more roles that would have exposed him more.

[TheButcher]

[Fievel]

So.....they're just kinda making it up as they go now......

Rian Johnson and Pablo Hidalgo Clarify Disney’s Role in the Creative Process of Star Wars

[TheBaxter]

So.....they're just kinda making it up as they go now......

you mean, like George Lucas did in the OT?

[Peven]

So.....they're just kinda making it up as they go now......

you mean, like George Lucas did in the OT?

exactly. he hadn't even come up with the idea for Luke and Leia to be brother and sister until after ESB, after he had set them up as love interests in A New Hope, I don't care what he tries to say now.

[TheBaxter]

the more i think about it, having some "grand plan" from the very beginning just isn't that important. you can look at the OT (which, despite Lucas' retconned memory, was pretty much made "on the fly") vs. the PT (which, for obvious reasons, had to stick to a particular plan) as one example. which one turned out better? even stuff like Vader being Luke's father wasn't planned from the beginning (again, contrary to Lucas' lies and delusions) and if there HAD been some grand plan, maybe he would've never come up with that idea, instead just sticking to his plan. once you have that plan, it can constrain your imagination and freedom and crowd out any better ideas that might come along during the creative process. of course, at some point you have to decide on how things are going to end and how you're going to get there, but doing so too early can be just as bad as too late. if you know you've got 3 films to get there, do you really need to decide all the questions after just the first one?

it'll draw comparisons to Lost, another franchise where there's some dispute over how much was planned ahead of time vs. made up as they went. but a lot of the stuff they claimed was pre-planned, like stuff about the history of the island, was some of the stuff people hated about the last season. Lost's problem was that they kept introducing new mysteries and questions without answering the original ones, until it all piled up into something incomprehensible. and, they had to do it in an atmosphere of being constantly scrutinized and analyzed, while still trying to be unpredictable, meaning possible answers were probably being jettisoned just because some bored geek somewhere already thought of it. plus, Lost was a TV show stretched out to 6 seasons, over a hundred hours of time to fill, as compared to 6+ hours for this new trilogy. as long as they don't keep adding unnecessary mysteries and twists, they won't bury themselves under the same huge mountain of questions as that show did. so why does it matter when they decide who Rey's parents are, or what her connection to the Skywalker bloodline is? if they decided that question before shooting began on TFA, would it necessarily be any better or more satisfying than if they don't decide it until the script for Ep. IX is finished? and besides, this is Star Wars, it's not Lost or some other dense, mystery-filled puzzle box of a property. i don't need or want M Night Shyamalan's Star Wars, where you have to go back and rewatch it all to look at how all the plot twists were constructed. all SW needs to be is a good, fun, exciting sci-fi adventure, and you don't need a 3-film plan for that.

[Peven]

I actually agree that it is good to be open to tweaking the story as they go in a multi-movie series, but it needs to be in ways that are organic and fit with the established tone and character representations. the way Lucas jammed in the brother-sister twist didn't fit, just like making Han Solo a soft-hearted Romeo didn't fit. when we are first introduced to him in the REAL version of A New Hope he is a crafty, fast-talking, calculating, badass smuggler who shoots first. by the time we get to RotJ he is like Ponch from C.H.I.P.s

[TheBaxter]

funnily enough, the idea of Luke having a twin sister was part of ESB before Lucas even had the idea of making Darth Vader his (their) dad (though originally the twin sister wasn't necessarily Leia).

[Peven]

(though originally the twin sister wasn't necessarily Leia).

fine, that would not have required any real paradigm shift in the characters and their relationships as they had been presented up to that point. springing it on everyone that Luke's twin was Leia in the third movie of the trilogy was an unwieldy hack and patch, story wise

[Ribbons]

the more i think about it, having some "grand plan" from the very beginning just isn't that important. you can look at the OT (which, despite Lucas' retconned memory, was pretty much made "on the fly") vs. the PT (which, for obvious reasons, had to stick to a particular plan) as one example. which one turned out better? even stuff like Vader being Luke's father wasn't planned from the beginning (again, contrary to Lucas' lies and delusions) and if there HAD been some grand plan, maybe he would've never come up with that idea, instead just sticking to his plan. once you have that plan, it can constrain your imagination and freedom and crowd out any better ideas that might come along during the creative process. of course, at some point you have to decide on how things are going to end and how you're going to get there, but doing so too early can be just as bad as too late. if you know you've got 3 films to get there, do you really need to decide all the questions after just the first one?

I get what you're saying here, but I think criticism over the lack of a plan is valid because it's JJ Abrams's much-maligned "mystery box" formula at work yet again: a shiny box with a giant question mark on the outside and nothing on the inside. Who are Rey's parents? Who are Finn's parents? Who is Supreme Leader Snoke? What is Maz Kanata's connection to the Star Wars mythos? Why did R2-D2 suddenly turn on? Why did Ben Kenobi turn evil? And is Poe Dameron Dumbledore or what? Turns out the answer to most of these is "meh." It's not the same thing as the original trilogy's unplanned twists and revelations, because the original trilogy, particularly the first Star Wars, never presented itself as a puzzle to be solved. But Abrams pulls this shit all the goddamned time (he almost seems incapable of NOT pulling it): putting the audience on the hook with a bunch of tantalizing, unanswered questions that never had answers to begin with, and the continued flak towards him over this cynical storytelling approach is well-earned. This isn't to say that Episodes 8 and 9 will be bad, and there are plenty of series, including shows like Lost and Fringe, that weren't necessarily planned from the start but evolved into something interesting. But you already put the people taking over the series after you, like Rian Johnson, at a disadvantage when you hand them a pile of mysteries that you never intended to solve. Because instead of going "oh, it would be cool if Vader was Luke's father" or "maybe Leia can be a Skywalker too," they have to sit down and go "fuck, now I guess I have to figure out who Rey's parents are."

[TheBaxter]

there are questions, but again i go back to my original thought: would the answers to those questions be any more interesting or satisfying if they were planned from the start instead of being answered during the writing of the final film? i don't see any reason they'd be better or worse either way.

you can criticize them for introducing so many mysteries to the series, but that's a different issue. and really, you list a lot of "questions" to be answered but i don't really see a whole lot there that's really a legitimate mystery or question. yeah, Rey's parentage and her connection, genetically or otherwise, to the other Skywalkers is a big mystery at the center of the series. but the others?

Finn's parents... is this really a question? that's like saying "who were Han Solo's parents" was a big question from Ep. IV or "who were Boba Fett's parents" was a big question from V. we never learned anything about Han Solo's parents (at least not until that Han Solo prequel film comes out) and the films didn't suffer for it. and we did learn about Boba Fett's parentage in the prequels, unfortunately. if we never learn anything about Finn's parents, that would be perfectly fine and probably even preferable.

who is Snoke? i can see how this might seem like a big deal, but (and maybe i'm just jaded by this stuff now) i'm pretty sure he'll end up just being some random dude who tapped into the dark side and got big ambitions for power. sure, maybe he'll turn out to be the Emperor in disguise or some other crazy internet fan theory, but i think anyone expecting Snoke's identity to be some ground-breaking revelation is just setting themselves up for disappointment and has no one but themselves to blame when that happens.

Maz Kanata, R2 turning one, Ben Kenobi turning evil (wait, what? i missed that plot point).... i just don't see these as being big questions or mysteries. some of these i chalk up to just convenient (or lazy) writing to advance the story (did anyone ever wonder why the Jawas captured R2 and C3PO and then immediately and coincidentally sold them to the estranged family and hidden son of the guy who just happened to be hunting for them, and was intimately familiar with them in his pre-Sith life? gotta be some conspiracy there, right?) you can blame JJ Abrams, but i think just as much fault lies with fandom today, and the tendency to try to see grand plans and secret connections in ANY major property or franchise. if you're talking LOTR or Game of Thrones or Lost, that kind of overanalysis and clue-sleuthing makes sense, because there really is something there to try to figure out. but when you start applying that same mindset to simpler properties, like Marvel and DC and Star Wars, it falls apart and just sets you up for disappointment.

i don't expect, or want, my Star Wars to be some inscrutable Rubik's Cube. it's ok to have a couple mysteries or open questions, but not everything is, or is intended to be, a huge mystery. i have a strong suspicion that a lot of things that fans have blown into huge mysteries from TFA were never intended to be, even by Abrams himself, mystery box crap or not. i'll save my hyperactive imagination and theorizing for properties that actually deserve it, like Twin Peaks or GoT. Star Wars is simple, and there's no need to project more complexity or mystery onto it than what's actually there.

[caruso_stalker217]

Originally, it would be revealed that Chewie was Luke's twin sister.

A much better version of RETURN OF THE JEDI exists in some alternate reality.

[caruso_stalker217]

you can look at the OT (which, despite Lucas' retconned memory, was pretty much made "on the fly") vs. the PT (which, for obvious reasons, had to stick to a particular plan) as one example.

I have trouble believing the prequels were actually written, let alone planned.

[Ribbons]

Finn's parents... is this really a question? that's like saying "who were Han Solo's parents" was a big question from Ep. IV or "who were Boba Fett's parents" was a big question from V. we never learned anything about Han Solo's parents (at least not until that Han Solo prequel film comes out) and the films didn't suffer for it. and we did learn about Boba Fett's parentage in the prequels, unfortunately. if we never learn anything about Finn's parents, that would be perfectly fine and probably even preferable.

'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' Character Names A Mystery On Purpose

Then there's also the part where Maz scrambles across the table to stare at him and makes a cryptic comment about seeing the same eyes in a different face. Maybe I'm reading too much into things, but I don't think it's *that* crazy of a leap.

But you're misunderstanding what I'm saying: I don't necessarily want a Star Wars trilogy with a bunch of mysteries; I just don't want them to ask the questions *unless* they plan on answering them, something Abrams rarely does.

[TheBaxter]

yeah, i'm going to go with "reading too much into things". like not revealing Finn's last name... it's not because he's a Calrissian or something like that, the movie already answered why we don't know his last name... because his name "Finn" was derived from his stormtrooper call sign, FN-whatever-the-fuck, so he doesn't have a "last name". see, this is why i just don't read every single article about these movies. they ask questions that are already loaded... "why won't you tell us Finn's last name?" and, even though there's a simple answer that doesn't really carry any deep significance or anything, the fact that Abrams won't answer the question a 1/2 year before the film comes out suddenly makes it some HUGE mystery that the fan community needs to theorize about endlessly, because some writer on some internet site wrote about it and made it out to be a huge deal. so now a fun little in-joke in the movie suddenly turns into a giant mystery, and because people have already spent months leading up to the film thinking there's some huge mystery behind Finn's parentage, when the actual answer arrives it's so basic they can't recognize it. all they're doing is looking for shapes in clouds... but what they're seeing isn't actually there.

i think these films are a lot more enjoyable if you don't try to look for mysteries in them and just let them be what they are, simple sci-fi action films. if it turns out, by the end of Ep. IX, that there was some deep underlying plot tying everything together, then great, i'll go back and rewatch the movies and appreciate it then. but i'm not expecting it at all.

[Peven]

seriously, I want to see a movie, not a fucking documentary explaining the backstory of each character, their star sign, why their parents named them what they named them, if they were bullied in school or not, etc. its a narrative story, not an encyclopedia.

that Kubrick, what an asshole for setting up all those questions and not delivering answers with that steaming pile of shit "2001", eh? or "A Clockwork Orange", all sorts of unanswered questions there, too. right?

i'm tired of the "it's cool to trash Abrams" shtick online, like the idiotic lens flare bashing

[caruso_stalker217]

seriously, I want to see a movie, not a fucking documentary explaining the backstory of each character, their star sign, why their parents named them what they named them, if they were bullied in school or not, etc. its a narrative story, not an encyclopedia.

that Kubrick, what an asshole for setting up all those questions and not delivering answers with that steaming pile of shit "2001", eh? or "A Clockwork Orange", all sorts of unanswered questions there, too. right?

i'm tired of the "it's cool to trash Abrams" shtick online, like the idiotic lens flare bashing

Comparing Abrams to Kubrick will win you no points here, sir!

[Ribbons]

i think these films are a lot more enjoyable if you don't try to look for mysteries in them and just let them be what they are, simple sci-fi action films. if it turns out, by the end of Ep. IX, that there was some deep underlying plot tying everything together, then great, i'll go back and rewatch the movies and appreciate it then. but i'm not expecting it at all.

I cannot (re-re-)emphasize enough that I am not looking for these things either. I don't want a bunch of mysteries to pore over or some deep, underlying plot. I just think if a filmmaker is not going to answer the questions they ask, then they shouldn't ask them in the first place. I don't feel like that's a particularly weird position to take.

seriously, I want to see a movie, not a fucking documentary.

Documentaries aren't movies now? Errol Morris is offended.

[TheBaxter]

i think my point of disagreement is i don't see where all these questions are that you claim are being asked by the filmmakers. Rey's identity is the only real puzzle or mystery here. everything else that is supposedly a question is just the creation of the hyperactive imaginations of fans, or of articles like that one you posted.

earlier, i said that fandom bears the blame for so much of the overanalysis of these films. but that's only half true, and that article you linked to is the other half. we're currently in the middle of an explosion of fake news movie/geek "news" websites that are nothing more than a bunch of baseless speculation and clickbait headlines. that article was a perfect example. who the hell is "cbr.com"? maybe i'm out of the loop, since i don't bother with a lot of so-called geek "news" anymore, but i've never heard of that site or read it before. if that article is any indication though, they follow the clickbait-fake news script to the tee: find a quote or tidbit of info from a more established news source (in this case, EW), take it out of context, and then make up a whole article of baseless speculation based on it and give it a suggestive title so you can get as many clicks as possible. so you have JJ Abrams' actual quote, which is just that they intentionally aren't revealing those characters last names. then the crappy website writer uses that as evidence for some made-up theory that the reason they're being kept secret is because they're Skywalker or Calrissian or Solo or something we'd recognize, even though nothing in the actual quote supports that idea.

these sites know that any article they post that has Star Wars in the title (or Game of Thrones, or Justice League, or whatever) is going to generate clicks. and if the article promises some new reveal of info or groundbreaking theory about THE SECRET BEHIND IT ALL, then it will generate even more clicks. so we're inundated with shitty sites full of promises and short on delivery. that's part of why i stopped playing that game (the other reason is because i eventually realized that knowing every little plot point or character detail about a movie actually made me enjoy the movie viewing process less enjoyable than if i just maintained my ignorance, waited for the actual film, and took it at face value without going in with a mental checklist of plot points, crazy theories and character reveals to compare the final film with). it's a vicious cycle, because the more fandom continues to pay attention to these kinds of articles, the more the makers will continue to produce them to boost their traffic and ad revenue.

as for JJ Abrams, i think a lot of things he says about films he's involved with are misunderstood. he never says that Finn's last name or origin are big secrets or that he's tied in to any characters from previous films, that's entirely the writer's invention extrapolated from a very general quote. the combination of how Lost was handled, and that whole "mystery box" concept he used to talk about, colors a lot of how people perceive his comments, but in reality most of what Abrams tries to do is not about creating huge labyrinthine puzzles and mysteries inside all of his films. Lost is probably the only thing that really fits that mold, and he was barely involved with that show after the pilot. he's not trying to keep things secret because there's a great big mystery behind each of his films, but rather, and as he's explained many times, it's because he believes (and rightly so, in my opinion) that films are better experienced by audiences when they go in knowing as little as possible about them. so when he says the non-revelation of Finn's last name is on purpose, it's not because he's trying to build some huge mystery surrounding his backstory. it's because the reason for his not knowing his last name is something Abrams wanted people to discover by watching the film, not reading about it in an article 6 months before it's released and ruining a funny little moment from the film as a result. i suppose he could try to be less cute or glib about it, but it probably gets boring answering every question about a character or trolling for spoilers with the same "i don't want to answer that because i'd rather the audience experience it for the first time by watching the film itself" response.

[Lord Voldemoo]

As we come up on Episode 8, I feel it important to state my opinion as though it were fact, as is the right of every Star Wars fan evar.

The definitive list of the best Star Wars space battles ever, from worst to best:

Battle of Naboo, Star Wars episode 1, The Phantom Menace
Battle of Coruscant, Star Wars episode 3, The Revenge of the Sith
Battle of Starkiller Base, Star Wars episode 7, The Force Awakens
Battle of Hoth Asteroid Field, Star Wars episode 5, The Empire Strikes Back
Battle of Scariff, Star Wars Rogue One
Battle of Yavin, Star Wars episode 4, A New Hope
Battle of Endor, Star Wars episode 6, The Return of the Jedi

What say you?

As an aside, every Star Wars release has a bit of a special place in my heart. good or bad, incredible or hackneyed. Episode I is what got me into AICN, which is what got me into this place. I haven't posted much here over the past couple of years, but there's no questioning the time, love and effort I've poured into the Zone for over 10 years now. I love it. I will always love it. and as much as Jar Jar sucks, he is what got me here. So I'm a little nostalgic about the whole thing.

[Al Shut]

Shame on me for not having seen the two most recent yet.

I'd probably rank Episode 3 higher, for sheer scale and/or scope, not sure which is the correct word.

Al in all it's hard to say, it's alwass a matter of what other thing s are happening simulataneously, which is why the battle for Endor is so great.

[Fievel]

Not an ordered list, but some comments.
-Episode IV is pure love and nostalgia for me.
-Episode VI took what we saw in IV and amplified it, all while providing HOLY SHIT moments between shots.
-Episode I took the Death Star battle concept, pared it down, and gave it a dose of Space Steve Eurkel. It just needed Anakin to look at the camera and say "did I do that?" (complete with laugh track) when he triggered the destruction of the Trade Federation ship.
-Episode V asteroid battle really had no effect on me other than moving the plot.
-Episode II Obi-Wan vs Jango Fett had a similar impact as Ep. V. The much-hyped seismic charge underwhelmed me,
-Episode III looked great, but played like a side-scrolling video game.
-Episode VII's space battles had no effect on me. None at all. With the shields up, it was Ep. VII all over again, except the other running story was much more interesting.
-Rogue One is different, looks amazing, and is just pure spectacle - but done extremely well. Hammerhead!

[Peven]

i like to pretend the prequels don't exist. they suck ass the nth degree and if I watch them I just get all pisses at Lucas for raping my childhood all over again

I was 10 when the first SW movie was released, it wasn't "A New Hope", it was just fucking "Star Wars", (Lucas, you arrogant asshole) when I am honest I can even see that the original trilogy wasn't that great in terms of cinema and when i remove the layers of sentimentality and nostalgia they drop considerably in my movie rankings for that time period. what set the franchise apart from the start was the originality and that awesome score by Williams, which is a big part of why it had the impact it did. take away that score and it becomes much more pedestrian. Williams doesn't get nearly as much credit for the success of SW as he deserves. once you start looking closely at story and plot and character development over the course of the series with an objective eye things break down rather quickly, though. the fact that Lucas was making it up as he went becomes apparent as consistency in many areas is a rare commodity in the series. as i get older and nostalgia fades the OT recedes more and more in my internal cinematic rankings.

Force Awakens was decent, the new actors and plot elements are the strongest part by far. could have been better without the hack job done by Ford, he was practically breaking the 4th wall and winking at the audience, I half expected him to look into the camera and say, "isn't this great?!" at some point. the further they get from the OT the better the movie is.

Rogue One is by far heads above the rest of the SW movies for me. I love it. it is the only SW movie yet that feels like a "real" movie to me. it doesn't have the feel of a movie that is going to try to sell me toys, and for my money it has more heart than the entire prequel trilogy combined and then some.

[caruso_stalker217]

So there's a new Star Wars movie coming out in a week and I don't really give a shit.

[TheBaxter]

So there's a new Star Wars movie coming out in a week and I don't really give a shit.

<whiny Luke voice> I give a shit! </whiny Luke voice>

[Fievel]

My oldest son (9yrs) went with me to the opening night showings of The Force Awakens and Rogue One. This year his sister (8yrs) is joining us for the opening show of The Last Jedi. Not that I needed any additional reason to be excited about new Star Wars, but watching my kids go apeshit about something that has been a part of my life since I was 3 (when I saw a held-over showing of Star Wars in 1978) is something special for me.

We're going to see it at our closest IMAX screen. They're having some super nerd special event on Thursday night with a 6pm show. There are goodie bags available. I was able to select our reserved seats and grabbed center-screen about 2/3 of the way back. The only thing that could make it any more perfect would be if they outfitted the theater with all recliners (our other local theater did this with no advertisement....an amazing surprise!). I'll be picking up the kids from school on Thursday and heading straight to the theater.

[caruso_stalker217]

My son isn't old enough for a trip to the movies yet, so I'll have to wait a while for that experience.

I was jazzed for ROGUE ONE and liked that a lot, but I've been unable to muster any real enthusiasm for THE LAST JEDI. I'll go see it, but it's not a priority.