GAME OF THRONES

[TheBaxter]

The next episode will just be characters exchanging knowing glances.

[TheBaxter]

here's another crazy theory... supposedly only a Targaryen can ride a dragon. so, at the end of season 7 the Night King was riding the zombie dragon when he blew down the Wall. so does that mean the Night King was once a Targaryen?

there might actually be something to this Targaryen Night King theory after all

one of the most famous prophecies in the series is about "the dragon has three heads". so if Dany and Jon are two of those heads, confirmed by their dragonriding skillz, then who is the third? there was that other crazy theory about Tyrion actually being a Targaryen, but nothing has come of it. however, we have seen a third dragonrider on the series now... the Night King. three dragons, three riders. the dragon has three heads. so what if one of them is undead?

the Night King might not be just a Targaryen either... there's another prophecy, the one about Azor Ahai returning to defeat the darkness. but what if the Night King is... Azor Ahai and not just Azor Ahai reborn, but the actual, original Azor Ahai. sure, he doesn't seem likely to be wielding a flaming sword and defeating the darkness, since he's the one bringing the darkness... but those prophecies have been known to be a little off the mark before. maybe we end up with OG Azor Ahai (Night King) vs. New Jack Azor Ahai (Jon Snow) with the fate of humanity in the balance.

[so sorry]

here's another crazy theory... supposedly only a Targaryen can ride a dragon. so, at the end of season 7 the Night King was riding the zombie dragon when he blew down the Wall. so does that mean the Night King was once a Targaryen?

there might actually be something to this Targaryen Night King theory after all

one of the most famous prophecies in the series is about "the dragon has three heads". so if Dany and Jon are two of those heads, confirmed by their dragonriding skillz, then who is the third? there was that other crazy theory about Tyrion actually being a Targaryen, but nothing has come of it. however, we have seen a third dragonrider on the series now... the Night King. three dragons, three riders. the dragon has three heads. so what if one of them is undead?

the Night King might not be just a Targaryen either... there's another prophecy, the one about Azor Ahai returning to defeat the darkness. but what if the Night King is... Azor Ahai and not just Azor Ahai reborn, but the actual, original Azor Ahai. sure, he doesn't seem likely to be wielding a flaming sword and defeating the darkness, since he's the one bringing the darkness... but those prophecies have been known to be a little off the mark before. maybe we end up with OG Azor Ahai (Night King) vs. New Jack Azor Ahai (Jon Snow) with the fate of humanity in the balance.

Nonsense I say! The Tyrion/Targaryen theory at least has some backstory to give it some traction (the Mad King was infatuated with Tywin's wife and it caused the former besties to get their feud going).

I can see the human that was turned into the Night King being a Targ in his former life, but if that's the case, I'd say it ends there, and doesn't have anything to do with the Three Heads business. Plus, the Targaryens didn't come to Westeros until well after the First Men/Children of the Forrest/White Walkers all started I think. So why would the Night King, who's been alive/dead for a thousand years, decide that he wants to take the Iron Throne for himself?


Nonsense! (But fun to talk about...)

[TheBaxter]

the show (and the books too, for that matter) have given us precious little backstory on the Night King, his goals and motivations. it's assumed that he's just some pure evil guy who wants to come south and kill everything because, well, EVIL

but if that's all there is to him and the white walkers, that would be incredibly disappointing. here you've got all these complicated human relationships and motivations and switching allegiances and intrigue and etc. with the human characters, and then the big bad villain is just some evil bogeyman out of a kids story with no inner life whatsoever, how lame would that be. there's got to be more to him/them than that. the producers have even said as much, that the Night King has motives which may not be purely evil, or may be more complex at least than how it has been seen from the human viewpoint.

he's not a traditional targaryen, he was apparently one of the First Men, before there were Targaryens or any other houses. but, as one of the First Men, as that article mentions, he could very well be an ancestor of the Targaryens. and not just them, he could be the ancestor of most or all of the major houses of Westeros... Targaryen, Stark, Lannister, Baratheon, Tyrell, etc. so he's got not just Targaryen blood (hence the dragonriding) but also Stark blood, Lannister blood and so on and so on. and maybe he's been sitting up there, watching his descendents split up into all these Houses, and all their infighting and backstabbing and other crap, and like Bill Cosby he decided, "i brought you into this world, i can take you out!" he could even think he's doing the world a favor by eliminating these horrible pests who seem to live just to torture and kill each other. so no, he's not looking to come down and take over the Iron Throne and rule over mankind, he wants to destroy mankind, but only because he sees it as his duty, as their progenitor, to rid the world of their madness and cruelty.

[so sorry]

the show (and the books too, for that matter) have given us precious little backstory on the Night King, his goals and motivations. it's assumed that he's just some pure evil guy who wants to come south and kill everything because, well, EVIL

but if that's all there is to him and the white walkers, that would be incredibly disappointing. here you've got all these complicated human relationships and motivations and switching allegiances and intrigue and etc. with the human characters, and then the big bad villain is just some evil bogeyman out of a kids story with no inner life whatsoever, how lame would that be. there's got to be more to him/them than that. the producers have even said as much, that the Night King has motives which may not be purely evil, or may be more complex at least than how it has been seen from the human viewpoint.

he's not a traditional targaryen, he was apparently one of the First Men, before there were Targaryens or any other houses. but, as one of the First Men, as that article mentions, he could very well be an ancestor of the Targaryens. and not just them, he could be the ancestor of most or all of the major houses of Westeros... Targaryen, Stark, Lannister, Baratheon, Tyrell, etc. so he's got not just Targaryen blood (hence the dragonriding) but also Stark blood, Lannister blood and so on and so on. and maybe he's been sitting up there, watching his descendents split up into all these Houses, and all their infighting and backstabbing and other crap, and like Bill Cosby he decided, "i brought you into this world, i can take you out!" he could even think he's doing the world a favor by eliminating these horrible pests who seem to live just to torture and kill each other. so no, he's not looking to come down and take over the Iron Throne and rule over mankind, he wants to destroy mankind, but only because he sees it as his duty, as their progenitor, to rid the world of their madness and cruelty.

Book wise I don't think we'll ever get a fruitful backstory to the Night King, who to date has only been told in Tall Tales, he hasn't been seen yet. But that's Martin's writing style, each chapter being told from a specific narrator, so what we read is only what THAT person knows/thinks/hears.

Show wise, the First Man lineage theory may have merit, but (and this is getting too deep probably), weren't the First Men from Westeros only, and those from Essos were of different stock. Thus, the Targ's weren't part of the First Man lineage, and many of the great houses came from the invasion from essos hundreds and hundred of year's ago (again, well before Targs).

I think the idea of him being from the Original Stock of humans on the planet could work, but I just don't see him getting a big speaking moment, where he calmly lays out his plans for the world, right before Arya shoots him with the dragon glass thingamajig.

[TheBaxter]

I think the idea of him being from the Original Stock of humans on the planet could work, but I just don't see him getting a big speaking moment, where he calmly lays out his plans for the world, right before Arya shoots him with the dragon glass thingamajig.

no, but that's what we have Bran the Three-Eyed Exposition Machine for.

[Peven]

the entire series is a giant allegory for our world. start there when you are analyzing possible roles and their significance.

the showrunners and Martin have said that The Night King and the White Walkers are neither good nor evil, they are more of a force of nature, a purpose manifested. for me, it is easy to see that they represent Death, entropy, the end of life. it SHOULD be an easy choice for the living to use all their efforts to find a way to defeat the Night King and the White Walkers before they spend a breath worrying about killing each other. the people of the realm don't really believe in the Night King or the White Walkers, even though they know the Great Wall exists and they send men to the Night watch every year. the men in charge of reading, translating and disseminating the knowledge of the 7 kingdoms don't believe the information in the books they read if it doesn't fit with their predisposed suppositions, even they don't really believe in the Night King and the white walkers. when the Commander of the Night's Watch, the very force the realm is supposed to depend on to protect them from the threats from north of the Wall, sends a warning about the White Walkers and wights it is largely ignored. when Sam comes to the Citadel he is trusted to become a Maester(sp?) but they don't really believe his story about what he has seen with the Night's Watch, including killing a White Walker with his own hand.

all the while Death is marching and marching closer and closer. people are scheming and plotting and fighting and murdering each other while a tidal wave of death is moving down upon them. the few people who see and believe the threat are doing everything they can to stop it, risking themselves in every way as they do, suffering and struggling to save people who have chosen not to help, people who don't believe in the threat, people who actively what to destroy them. it is easy to hate Cersei and despise the Night King, but one of the biggest threats to the survival of the realm is the people of the realm themselves, their lack of character. throughout the series we see how petty, ignorant and easily manipulated the common people are. they spit and thrown shit on Cersei then cheer her months later. they cheered the beheading of Ned Stark. most of the nobles are worthless, sheep born into the right family. the Maesters are complacent and have lost the belief in their own books' account of history and the nature of the realm.

[Al Shut]

here's another crazy theory... supposedly only a Targaryen can ride a dragon. so, at the end of season 7 the Night King was riding the zombie dragon when he blew down the Wall. so does that mean the Night King was once a Targaryen?

Hogwash! (Is that more or less than nonsnese?)

You don't need Targaryen blood to ride a zombie dragon, that applies only to a real dragon™.

I haven't paid full attention to the show in years, is/was there a supossedly lost Targaryen who was rescued as a baby and now resufaces?
If not and they now have to pull out a third dragon out of their hat, anything can happen. Or so I would say if I wouldn't believe the one in the books was a fake.

[Wolfpack]

Hogwash! (Is that more or less than nonsnese?)

It's right on the same level as balderdash.

[Peven]

Hogwash! (Is that more or less than nonsnese?)

It's right on the same level as balderdash.

not quite the same level as horseshit, though

[TheBaxter]

here's another crazy theory... supposedly only a Targaryen can ride a dragon. so, at the end of season 7 the Night King was riding the zombie dragon when he blew down the Wall. so does that mean the Night King was once a Targaryen?

Hogwash! (Is that more or less than nonsnese?)

You don't need Targaryen blood to ride a zombie dragon, that applies only to a real dragon™.

I haven't paid full attention to the show in years, is/was there a supossedly lost Targaryen who was rescued as a baby and now resufaces?
If not and they now have to pull out a third dragon out of their hat, anything can happen. Or so I would say if I wouldn't believe the one in the books was a fake.

how is it not a "real dragon"? a dragon's a dragon. it flies, it breathes (icy) fire. living, dead, or undead, it's still a dragon.

[TheBaxter]

the entire series is a giant allegory for our world. start there when you are analyzing possible roles and their significance.

the showrunners and Martin have said that The Night King and the White Walkers are neither good nor evil, they are more of a force of nature, a purpose manifested. for me, it is easy to see that they represent Death, entropy, the end of life. it SHOULD be an easy choice for the living to use all their efforts to find a way to defeat the Night King and the White Walkers before they spend a breath worrying about killing each other. the people of the realm don't really believe in the Night King or the White Walkers, even though they know the Great Wall exists and they send men to the Night watch every year. the men in charge of reading, translating and disseminating the knowledge of the 7 kingdoms don't believe the information in the books they read if it doesn't fit with their predisposed suppositions, even they don't really believe in the Night King and the white walkers. when the Commander of the Night's Watch, the very force the realm is supposed to depend on to protect them from the threats from north of the Wall, sends a warning about the White Walkers and wights it is largely ignored. when Sam comes to the Citadel he is trusted to become a Maester(sp?) but they don't really believe his story about what he has seen with the Night's Watch, including killing a White Walker with his own hand.

all the while Death is marching and marching closer and closer. people are scheming and plotting and fighting and murdering each other while a tidal wave of death is moving down upon them. the few people who see and believe the threat are doing everything they can to stop it, risking themselves in every way as they do, suffering and struggling to save people who have chosen not to help, people who don't believe in the threat, people who actively what to destroy them. it is easy to hate Cersei and despise the Night King, but one of the biggest threats to the survival of the realm is the people of the realm themselves, their lack of character. throughout the series we see how petty, ignorant and easily manipulated the common people are. they spit and thrown shit on Cersei then cheer her months later. they cheered the beheading of Ned Stark. most of the nobles are worthless, sheep born into the right family. the Maesters are complacent and have lost the belief in their own books' account of history and the nature of the realm.

i knew you were rooting for the Night King.

[Peven]

assuming that episode 3 will be a major battle, and since there are 3 more episodes left after that we know that isn't going to be a final resolution. questions are....

do the living win and defeat the Night King and the next three episodes deal with battling Cersei?
or
do they lose and retreat in order to regather their forces for a final stand in episode 6?

does Cersei ever have to face the dead or is she, or they, dispatched before that can happen? how DOES Cersei meet her end? at whos hand?

who dies in the big battle for Winterfell?

Martin seems to have an affinity for characters that don't wield much power in their world, so I think that someone like Sam is going to live to see the end credits. Jorah has gone through his redemption trials so I think he may actually live as well.

i think Pod and his magic cock are as good as dead.

I think Brienne is alive up to now due to her possession of the Valerian steel sword that was forged from the Stark sword, if it goes out of her hands that means she is a goner(I wonder if she may give it to Arya at some point) but as long as she wields it I think she is probably safe. I am almost positive that Arya is going to die but not until the final episode.

I would be surprised if the Hound lives to the end and it looks as if a showdown with his big bro is fated, but that could be a red herring. speaking of the Mountain, I have wondered, since he is apparently a form of undead how vulnerable is he to harm from the wights or White Walkers? or, if he is a kind of undead then may he not fall under the control of the Night King if he comes close enough?

I think at this point I am far from alone in thinking that Dany is going to die, and I think she may actually exit during the battle in episode 3. that was the purpose of the romantic dragon ride of the first episode, to show Jon Snow(Targaryan) being accepted by and riding a dragon. so when Dany is killed it is plausible for Jon to ride and "control" a dragon, as much as that means anyway, for the final battle. btw, watch as whichever dragon dies next is immolated by his brother afterward to ensure he can not be brought back by the Night King.

the Red Witch will be back, to die, but what will she do before she does? could she revive someone again? Varys is going to die but will he have a final heroic act or go out impotently.

Theon may be the most human character among the main bunch left and it certainly seems as if he has a big redemption moment coming before he dies, if he dies, i am not so sure anymore with him.

Jaimie dies, imo he is irredeemable in life and can only find true redemption in a self-sacrifice of some sort.

Bronn is dead, one way or another.

i keep thinking about the "break the wheel" phrase that repeatedly comes up in dialogue and if you consider what "the wheel" is and what has happened so far it may not bode well for any heads of the remaining ruling families. the spokes of the wheel are the royal families. breaking the wheel means breaking those spokes. House of Roses? gone. Dorne's ruling family? gone. Baratheons? gone, officially anyway. House Tarly? gone. the Freys? gone. the Umbers? gone. whatever house it is that the Blackfish and Catlyn Stark were from, the Riverlands? gone. see a pattern. remember the pattern of burning human parts that keeps popping up? looks a little like a wheel. entropy. the people who represent the power structure of Westeros, and beyond, have been not only dying but their houses eradicated as they have been known to be. that does not bode well for Sansa. Tyrion is in the grey area in that regard, i think, because even though he is a Lannister he was never really a part of that system, he was never going to gain family title and lands even if he was the last offspring left. Tywin was explicit in that.

another big question is...does Tormund get to consummate his adoration for Brienne before he dies, or perhaps, wish wish, does he get to live out his days with her as the new lords of the North?

[so sorry]

That's an interesting point about the 'break the wheel' and the often seen White Walker wheel pattern.

When Bran and Bloodraven take a journey back in time to watch the Night's King being created, they are in a mountainous region (not way up north presumably), and there are rocky protrusions in a spoke pattern around the wierwood tree that the man is tied to.

Maybe after the they get their asses kicked in the Battle for Winterfell, Bran tells them that to defeat the Night's King, they need to go back to the source of his creation and burn that place down or some-such-shit. I believe that place is the God's Eye, an island on a lake in southern westeros, where the Children of the Forrest retreated to as the first men took over.

Hmmm....

[Wolfpack]

So was last night a Gendry or an Arya episode?

[TheBaxter]

So was last night a Gendry or an Arya episode?

all the people shipping them finally got their wish... Giardia.

[Fievel]

I struggled mightily watching that scene - alternating between "Yeah, Arya! Get some!" and "Oh my goodness! Dear child, put some clothes on!!!"

Reeeeeaaaaally awkward watching that scene having watched her grow up on screen.

Despite the limited number of episodes, and the limited perspective of that episode, I really liked that one.

[TheBaxter]

i hope Thormund gets to kick some serious ass next episode. his pining for Brienne is funny, but it's starting to get a bit much. he needs to get his mojo back and have some badass moments next week to balance it out.

[Fievel]

Thormund/Brienne was cute, but her relationship with Jaime is much more meaningful (and had a nice moment with her knighting).

[Peven]

Thormund relating how he got his name was pretty badass and funny at the same time. he's got nothing to prove to me and I am not even close to tired of his adoration of Brienne.

Jaime is a scumbag and Tyrion called him out on it. he always knew what Cersei was and chose to overlook it. Jaime himself said he would not take back what he had done and the only reason he stopped helping Cersei was because he was finally convinced it was a choice between life or death. Tormund has shown much more character and strength throughout the story so far and is much more worthy of Brienne than Jaime, imho.

I was so disappointed there was no throwing stick to go along with the lance Aria had Gendry make. I thought for sure it looked like a two piece construction shown in the diagram and a throwing stick made perfect sense to help propel the lance far and strong enough to take down a dragon.

I was glad to see Arya live for once and not be a part of an act that led to death. people with hang ups about the scene need to grow up, seeing so many articles and judgy opinions on the web about it was beyond irritating.

I am starting to think Dany ends up being a villain or is killed in next weeks battle, one or the other.

[Wolfpack]

It wasn't lost on me that this was episode 69.

[so sorry]

I struggled mightily watching that scene - alternating between "Yeah, Arya! Get some!" and "Oh my goodness! Dear child, put some clothes on!!!"

Reeeeeaaaaally awkward watching that scene having watched her grow up on screen

Yeah I was really uncomfortable with that scene as well, and I immediately started wondering how old Arya (and the actress) are at this point. It is weird that we've seen her 'grow up' over the last 8 years, I still see her as a little kid. I half expected her to pull of a face and reveal the Faceless man master!

Ultimately, I don't know where I'll end up with my feelings about Jaime. I waver back and forth with "he's a total dickbag" to "but he's redeeming himself". I know where the show is going with it, but I'm not sold yet.

I really really like this episode, but the corny interruptions when Sansa and Dany were just about to have a verbal throwdown, and they when Jon and Dany where talking about their "relationship" was too forced.

I think that every character that had a "moment" this week will be dead by the end of the next episode (Jaime, Brianne, Tormond, Theon, Jorah, Greyworm). That's alot of Valyrian steel left on the battlefield!

Lastly, the Podrick singing was laaaaaame and immediately brought me right back to The Return of the King with Pippin singing his sad little song as the battle raged on outside.

and P.S. motherfucking GHOST showed up!!!!!!!

[Peven]

so, Arya stabbing a guy in the eyeballs repeatedly until he was dead, killing and cutting up two men and putting them into a meat pie for their father to eat before slitting the father's throat slitting Littlefingers throat as cooly as peeling a banana and watching him bleed out dispassionately. THOSE things didn't make you uncomfortable seeing a young woman do, but when she chose to have sex with a young man close to her age because she thought it may be her last night alive THAT is what made you feel squeemish and uncomfortable. holy shit this is one fucked up society we are living in.

[so sorry]

so, Arya stabbing a guy in the eyeballs repeatedly until he was dead, killing and cutting up two men and putting them into a meat pie for their father to eat before slitting the father's throat slitting Littlefingers throat as cooly as peeling a banana and watching him bleed out dispassionately. THOSE things didn't make you uncomfortable seeing a young woman do, but when she chose to have sex with a young man close to her age because she thought it may be her last night alive THAT is what made you feel squeemish and uncomfortable. holy shit this is one fucked up society we are living in.

Like Fievel said earlier, I've watched her (the actress, not the character) grown up on screen, from a 12 year old girl to a 22 year old girl. I've never once thought of her in a sexual way. And then boom, she's all naked, and I got uncomfortable. It would be like me watching one of my 13 year old daughter's girlfriends that I've known for years having sex for the first time.... not something I want to see. And there is no comparison to her stabbing and killing people, since I have no real-life context to watching someone stab and kill people to make me feel uncomfortable.

It figures you would jump all over this scene and many MANY people's reaction to it, and get all contrarian about it. This is my shocked face

Stop being an ass for Jeebus' sake.

[TheBaxter]

i noticed those forced interruptions too. like every time two characters were put into an uncomfortable moment, somebody conveniently shows up with some urgent news and they have to put on their "to be continued..." faces. they could get away with that one time, but two or more times and it's just drawing attention to itself. by the end of the episode, i almost expected Kanye to show up during Brienne's knighting ceremony... "yo Jaime, ima let you finish, but Ser Arthur Dayne was one of the best knights of all time!"

glad to see they finally allowed Ghost out of his cage. he's been off the show so long, they had to put him in a random shot just to remind most of the audience he still exists, before he starts kicking (biting?) ass next week. well, I NEVER FORGOT.

[so sorry]

i almost expected Kanye to show up during Brienne's knighting ceremony... "yo Jaime, ima let you finish, but Ser Arthur Dayne was one of the best knights of all time!"

IPAMPILASH!

glad to see they finally allowed Ghost out of his cage. he's been off the show so long, they had to put him in a random shot just to remind most of the audience he still exists, before he starts kicking (biting?) ass next week. well, I NEVER FORGOT.

He'll be dead surely... icy dragon breath I'd guess. Sadly.

[Cpt Kirks 2pay]

so, Arya stabbing a guy in the eyeballs repeatedly until he was dead, killing and cutting up two men and putting them into a meat pie for their father to eat before slitting the father's throat slitting Littlefingers throat as cooly as peeling a banana and watching him bleed out dispassionately. THOSE things didn't make you uncomfortable seeing a young woman do, but when she chose to have sex with a young man close to her age because she thought it may be her last night alive THAT is what made you feel squeemish and uncomfortable. holy shit this is one fucked up society we are living in.

Like Fievel said earlier, I've watched her (the actress, not the character) grown up on screen, from a 12 year old girl to a 22 year old girl. I've never once thought of her in a sexual way. And then boom, she's all naked, and I got uncomfortable. It would be like me watching one of my 13 year old daughter's girlfriends that I've known for years having sex for the first time.... not something I want to see. And there is no comparison to her stabbing and killing people, since I have no real-life context to watching someone stab and kill people to make me feel uncomfortable.

It figures you would jump all over this scene and many MANY people's reaction to it, and get all contrarian about it. This is my shocked face

Stop being an ass for Jeebus' sake.

I'm with Peven on this. She's a grown woman by now we all bloody know that, and she may not live a day beyond that night, so to see her have sex is all 'meh' to me. It's weird you're more put off by a harmless and normal sex act rather than a little kid do terrible shocking violence to people.

WTF is wrong with you man?

[Cpt Kirks 2pay]

I struggled mightily watching that scene - alternating between "Yeah, Arya! Get some!" and "Oh my goodness! Dear child, put some clothes on!!!"

Reeeeeaaaaally awkward watching that scene having watched her grow up on screen

Ultimately, I don't know where I'll end up with my feelings about Jaime. I waver back and forth with "he's a total dickbag" to "but he's redeeming himself". I know where the show is going with it, but I'm not sold yet.

I really really like this episode, but the corny interruptions when Sansa and Dany were just about to have a verbal throwdown, and they when Jon and Dany where talking about their "relationship" was too forced.

I think that every character that had a "moment" this week will be dead by the end of the next episode (Jaime, Brianne, Tormond, Theon, Jorah, Greyworm). That's alot of Valyrian steel left on the battlefield!

Lastly, the Podrick singing was laaaaaame and immediately brought me right back to The Return of the King with Pippin singing his sad little song as the battle raged on outside.

and P.S. motherfucking GHOST showed up!!!!!!!

I'm with So Sorry on this. I pretty much deposed the way we had all this build up and anticipation on how the realisation between Jon and Daenerys would throw down - only for it to be cut short and interrupted. I kinda felt the same way with Jaime having to confront all his sins with those he hurt, only for them to be conveniently thrown aside with the distraction of his role in the consuming war, without any mention of how he is still to be held responsible for his crimes at some stage still. I say this with the consideration that later on he may be held accountable and may still have to answer, but I don't know how well the writing is gonna go with what comes next and if the conclusion of his fate will be satisfactorily done or not. But frankly I'm a bit sick of all this "Yeah but it will be good when we reach so and so stage of the story later" only for things to disappoint when we do. So I'm a bit in doubt at finding this satisfaction right now.

I do have to admit, the singing was cliche. Game of Thrones is normally more original and removed from such stuff that LOTR does.

I'm back and forth on Jaime too, but I'm a bit cynical to people changing, I still think that given the same relative temptations that he's had before, he'll succumb to doing the unethical acts for the ultimate reason of doing something for his own self-serving purposes. If he does do some self sacrifice for others, well I feel he'd be doing it too consciously for the sake of redemption rather than doing it for genuine martyrdom.

[Cpt Kirks 2pay]

i noticed those forced interruptions too. like every time two characters were put into an uncomfortable moment, somebody conveniently shows up with some urgent news and they have to put on their "to be continued..." faces. they could get away with that one time, but two or more times and it's just drawing attention to itself. by the end of the episode, i almost expected Kanye to show up during Brienne's knighting ceremony... "yo Jaime, ima let you finish, but Ser Arthur Dayne was one of the best knights of all time!"

I'm with TheBaxter on this.

I'm glad coming to the Zone that finally I found people who agree with me on this fucking frustration. I feel Game of Thrones is yielding to that horrible let down that some films do where after so much build up they can't sell the climax that we've been waiting months or even years for. All this time I've been thinking "How are Jon and Dany gonna deal with this? How will the writers make this scene go off? It's gonna be so explosive!", only for the confrontation to be cheated out of us by an interruption. Yeah OK the conflict of this or the resolution will happen over time rather than just 1 scene but still more dramatically could have happened with this moment of revelation - without it practically affecting their actions in the big battle to come. That scene itself should have had more verbal action to it to justify it's wait.

[TheBaxter]

it was ok to do it with Dany and Sansa. no one really cares about their feelings for each other anyway. and it served as a reminder that whatever truces there are are temporary and after the White Walkers are dealt with (if they are) then all the petty squabbles between the different houses over the Iron Throne and who's king/queen to who are going to erupt all over again.

but doing it with Jon and Dany, which is probably the most important relationship on the show right now in terms of impact on the ultimate outcome of the series, is unforgivable. it pretty much guarantees that both of these characters will survive the battle, because you can't leave that conversation unresolved, so there goes any drama about whether either of these characters is in any real danger during the battle. if they weren't going to have something substantial or meaningful come out of that reveal, they should have saved it til after the battle.

[Ribbons]

I've certainly been worked up about randomly specific things, but I'm okay with the Jon/Dany relationship status where it is heading into the battle. I have a feeling one of them isn't going to make it to the end of the show. That may happen after they defeat the White Walkers, but I wouldn't put it past them to kill one off during the action. At the very least it's enough of a possibility that the contrivance of delaying their showdown doesn't bother me. On the other hand, I am a little worried that there's only 4 episodes left and they seem to still be putting things off.

[Peven]

there are a lot of people to kill off with only 4 episodes left, so you would think that at least a few are going to die in the Battle for Winterfell unless there is going to be a battle royale bloodbath of a finale. there does have to be enough of a cast left to fill the remaining 3 episodes after #3, though. it isn't as if they can spend much screen time on the Night King, no compelling dialogue there. with all the characters bunched up there aren't as many places to jump around narratively anymore. one of things that always made the show so eminently watchable was the variety of settings and plots to follow. post episode 3 I would not be surprised to see our now assembled GoT Avengers survivors broken into at least two groups, maybe one heading towards the Iron Islands and the other south, Dragonstone is safe, right?

we have been told for two years how gangbusters this last season would be and so far we have not seen much action at all. the two shortest episodes of the season. I have a feeling episode 3 is going to make up for that in a big way. I will not be surprised if we see the Night King's dragon killed, it is too powerful to be in play for another 3 episodes if Daenerys's dragons are killed in episode 3 and it is hard to imagine a battle for Winterfell without those dragons going at it, so someone has to go. another possibility is that the Night King is playing them and either while his army is hitting Winterfell he has flown somewhere else with his dragon and a smaller force to attack, or vice versa. that would put off the confrontation between the living and dead dragons until the finale and allow the realistic scenario for a successful retreat. it also avoids the narrative difficulty in explaining how the dead buried under Winterfell wouldn't be risen and wipe out the living easily if the Night King's full forces were attacking. if the Night King can raise the dead and he sent his army to the south while he plans on raising the dead in Winterfell to create a new army of the dead to defeat them that would provide a scenario where the forces at Winterfell can win a temporary victory there and yet still be racing to catch up with the army of the dead before they get to Kings Landing to turn all those there into the undead. maybe Arya, or someone else, is able to wound the Nite King and he is forced to retreat, though in that scenario I don't think it is very feasible for his dragon to still be alive. after rewatching episode 2 I think it is a coin toss whether Daenerys lives through the Battle for Winterfell. she's been shown to be a false hope for a truly fair ruler, and like Rob's wrongheaded beheading of the Costark her immolation of Sam's father and brother was a foreshadowing of doom for her. the exchange between Grey Worm and his girl was not a good foreshadowing for Daenerys or them, either. don't be shocked if she is consumed by the blue dragon fire of the Nite King's dragon before all is said and done.

[TheBaxter]

i predict that some people will die, and other people will live. i predict that the people who die will be the people who were written as dying in the script, and the people who live will be the ones who have scenes written for them in the scripts of future episodes. the person who ends up winning the iron throne, if anyone does, will be the person the showrunners have chosen to win the iron throne and who has been filmed doing so in the final episode.

[Peven]

exactly. predicting the show is all about predicting what is in the minds of the writers

[TheBaxter]

the episodes have already been written and filmed, so it's no longer about predicting what's in the minds of the writers, but guessing what was in their minds when they wrote these scripts months or years ago.

it's fun to guess what might or might not happen, but ultimately these predictions say a lot more about what's in the minds of the predictors, than they do the writers' minds.

[Ribbons]

I predict that there will be four more episodes.

[Peven]

I predict the lameness of the level of humor here will continue to increase

[Cpt Kirks 2pay]

I predict that Peven will be the only one posting anything of serious minded merit about this show while the rest of you lot post crappy jokes.

[Wolfpack]

I predict not everyone will be satisfied with the series finale.

[so sorry]

I predict not everyone will be satisfied with the series finale.

<raises hand sheepishly>

[Peven]

I predict not everyone will be satisfied with the series finale.

<raises hand sheepishly>

baaahhh

[so sorry]

I predict not everyone will be satisfied with the series finale.

<raises hand sheepishly>

baaahhh

Well I'm not entirely happy that the series will be over, so that will be part of my "not satisfied"-ness. Last season was a bit of a mess, story wise and pacing. Still enjoyed it, but yeah, a mess. These first two episodes were so much better, but now we're going to have to see conclusions to so many story lines in such a short amount of time, that something is going to get short changed, I'm guessing.

[Peven]

huh, I REALLY enjoyed the last two seasons with no big complaints. I think they've done an excellent job with the first two episodes so far without relying on action(traveling,fighting) or deaths to propel the story and instead spent most of the time on further fleshing out characters. the next few episodes have even better directors at the helm (if I remember correctly). this is going to be better than finding out who shot JR, better than seeing Hawkeye finally going home, the level of anticipation the show has built up over the years for the finale is truly a phenomena and I am fine with knowingly being carried along with it, it has been a fun ride.

[Cpt Kirks 2pay]

I predict not everyone will be satisfied with the series finale.

<raises hand sheepishly>

baaahhh

Well I'm not entirely happy that the series will be over, so that will be part of my "not satisfied"-ness. Last season was a bit of a mess, story wise and pacing. Still enjoyed it, but yeah, a mess. These first two episodes were so much better, but now we're going to have to see conclusions to so many story lines in such a short amount of time, that something is going to get short changed, I'm guessing.

I'm with So Sorry on this. I feel that such a long strong build up is hard to do justice to, and a battle and confrontation conclusions can only be so long and so dramatic. It's all the Harry Potter syndrome to me in terms of so fucking long creating story build up to the end finale (Harry Potter's final film) that and when it comes along it's just too unexceptional, not long or powerful enough to deliver the 'satisfaction' that we desire, it just isn't epic enough.

Long episodes or not, I feel like everything that is left to be told is kinda being crammed a bit tight, and I wonder how each character's death or final fate can dramatically do justice to the 7 season long wait. I talk not just in terms of how all this is executed but also in what the writers have created in store for certain characters, who lives or dies, who does the killing, are certain characters redeemed or excused etc.? (i.e. Bran has already shoulder shrugged off Jaime taking away his legs so far, will the writers make the final conclusion to Jaime's story be similarly dismissive?)

[TheBaxter]

compared to the books, anything they did would feel rushed.

[Peven]

I know I am able to enjoy the show more than people who have read the books because I am free of the constant comparisons. any time a movie is made of a book you love it is near impossible to be as good simply because the characters aren't all going to match up the way you pictured or heard in your head and any changes to the story or cast of characters will almost certainly be a detraction. after all , if you loved the book(s) why would you be happy with someone changing them? the better, more beloved the books the more difficult it is to please the readers with a movie. it's like a kind of entropy, I guess, where if you come in at the beginning, the book, you see a partial disintegration in the cinematic conversion, whereas someone who has not read the books sees the cinematic story as fresh, the only story they've known. the same loyalty to "source" will come in to play at the next conversion/adaptation/reboot for that group, as they will then feel the same sense of entropy occurring.

[TheBaxter]

except with these books, the first few were really good, the next couple were pretty disappointing, and the last ones (corresponding to the past few seasons) haven't even been written yet, so there's nothing to compare them to yet.

i think most who have read the books were really happy with the first few seasons which adapted the best books of the series, and probably were thrilled that the seasons dealing with the middle books did away with a lot of the bloated extraneous crap that made those books so disappointing. since the last two(?) books of the series haven't been published yet, no one can be disappointed with how they do or don't adhere to the books, though we already know they have deviated in some ways from the series going in. all we know is that GRRM explained his "master plan" to the showrunners and, assuming he doesn't change that plan significantly, then the show and the tv series should end in essentially the same way, even though certain characters or individual plot lines might not. but i think it's been well known for some time that the show has basically gone on its own separate path to get to that endpoint, and i don't think it's a significantly different experience for readers or non-readers ever since the show sped past the point the books are currently stuck at a few seasons ago.

i know at that point i made the decision i would just hold off on reading any new books until the series finished. well, that turned out to be an empty threat.

[Fievel]

I have a feeling that the book ending will be significantly different from the show - simply because Martin can. Regardless, there is so much detail begging to be written during the non-book seasons...not to mention the multiple (and significant) changes from the book. These two works of art (the book series and the show) will be successful/remembered on their own.

[Peven]

am I crazy for thinking the spin-off series supposedly set thousand(s) of years prior to the current series will be REALLY good? it's probably 5 years out from the first episode premiering, which is a good thing, and there is still SO much of the world GoT takes place in that hasn't been close to being fleshed out yet that a well done series set in the distant past could actually enhance GoT by filling out the backstory of those places/peoples. I want more Bravos, for starters. and giants. and dire wolves. I want Children of the Forest. I want to see Valeria pre-fall. I want to spend more time in the Citadel in a time with Maesters who do more than just read. and more Dorne, while we're at it.

[Ribbons]

The one place I would love to see more of (actually, ANY of) is Asshai. It's been given special significance in the books based on its mystery and the magic that originates from there that I feel like it would border on criminal not to explore it at all.