GAME OF THRONES

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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby so sorry on Mon May 06, 2019 2:43 pm

the io9.com article I read every monday that breaks down GoT episodes, the commenters were having a field day with Euron's magical fleet. Dany and two dragons, and a small fleet of Unsullied are within view of King's Landing then BOOM out of nowhere a fleet of Ironborn magically appear (they were hiding in a cove!) and blow the fuck out of them. With ballista bolts. Bolts destroy ships too apparently. Three shots at a (admittedly wounded) dragon, and one belly shot, one neck shot, one head shot. That's some fine ass marksmanship right there.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby TheBaxter on Mon May 06, 2019 3:03 pm

so sorry wrote:the io9.com article I read every monday that breaks down GoT episodes, the commenters were having a field day with Euron's magical fleet. Dany and two dragons, and a small fleet of Unsullied are within view of King's Landing then BOOM out of nowhere a fleet of Ironborn magically appear (they were hiding in a cove!) and blow the fuck out of them. With ballista bolts. Bolts destroy ships too apparently. Three shots at a (admittedly wounded) dragon, and one belly shot, one neck shot, one head shot. That's some fine ass marksmanship right there.


i can buy it, Dany returning to Dragonstone was a predictable move, Dany's overconfidence in her dragons' invulnerability (one got killed by the Night King, but he's dead now, and nothing else yet really hurt them) made her less vigilant than she should have been, and led to Rhaegal being an easier target than he normally would be in battle. they need to make the dragons vulnerable if they want any drama or tension during those battle sequences, and the one* dragon left sure seems vulnerable now. who can say they weren't a little nervous seeing Drogon sitting there at the end with all those spears pointed at him on the castle walls?

i will say, seeing some of the other reaction to the last couple episodes in particular, makes me feel less alone in feeling that this show is tanking. last season had its issues but at least it was mostly fun and exciting enough to overlook them. this season, 2/3 in now, and it's like, they went away for 2 years and to finish things up over 6 episodes, and we end up with THIS? at this point, i'm just expecting mostly mindless spectacle and unearned shock moments, and pretty much given up on the complexity and greater themes that were a part of the earlier seasons.

* it could be wishful thinking, but how sure are we that Rhaegal is actually dead? he took a spear to the chest, one to the neck, starts spewing blood and ends up crashing and sinking in a large body of water. the last time a dragon died and sunk under water, it didn't stay dead. plus, Rhaegal was becoming Jon's dragon... and we all know what happened when Jon got stabbed in the heart. if people like Beric and Jon keep coming back to "fulfill their destiny" or whatever, maybe it can happen for dragons too. yeah, the Night King is gone and so is Melisandre, but there are other red priestesses out there. and maybe dragons are just tougher than they seem, and a little time underwater recuperating is all a dragon needs to make a heroic comeback at the last moment and save Dany's and Jon's asses. (wait, is Rhaegal female? no? ok, maybe only Dany's ass then).
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby so sorry on Mon May 06, 2019 4:22 pm

TheBaxter wrote:i will say, seeing some of the other reaction to the last couple episodes in particular, makes me feel less alone in feeling that this show is tanking. last season had its issues but at least it was mostly fun and exciting enough to overlook them. this season, 2/3 in now, and it's like, they went away for 2 years and to finish things up over 6 episodes, and we end up with THIS? at this point, i'm just expecting mostly mindless spectacle and unearned shock moments, and pretty much given up on the complexity and greater themes that were a part of the earlier seasons.


I second that emotion. If there's one huge upside for me, personally, its that one of my fears a few years ago was the show ruining my enjoyment of the final books. There's now way in hell GRRM publishes the remaining novels with this level of writing or pacing. Shit, the only thing they may have in common at the end is who sits the iron throne, and practically nothing similar of how he/she/it got there.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Mon May 06, 2019 4:25 pm

I'm betting that Rhaegar is not dead. Who's with me, or gonna get burned for disagreeing?
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Mon May 06, 2019 4:45 pm

TheBaxter wrote: how easy would it have been for her to fly up or around, out of range of the spears, get behind the fleet and burn all those ship up from behind?


I was thinking the same thing. The physical logic of how things work make this not only just super easy, but also makes her decision to fly at the ships then veer off to be even more stupid.

All she has to do is fly a semi-circle, out of range of the spears, then go behind the ships and burn them all or a significant amount of them, and easily in a manner which don't get her shot down.

But it all brings me back to a shot at the end the preview of next week's episode... Euron looking up in the sky in surprise at something coming for him - gotta be 'I'm not really dead, I was just resting' Rhaegar coming to burn his fleet all down. As we both said, I don't think that dragon is dead. For one thing if it did die - don't you think it's death scene was cut short and anticlimactic emotionally?

Normally when a film wants to suggest that a character has died, but really hasn't, it kinda shortchanges the emotion of their death and never does a full on complete death scene with more time devoted to seeing that character die and with other people's reactions - and then later on that character reveals itself to still be alive. Which is how Rhaegar's 'death' felt here.

I'm also trying to remember something I think I thought up before I saw this episode, or at least that 'death'. I swear I already thought that one of the dragons could be killed out of nowhere by a spear like in the snap of a finger, real fast, even before the battle began. I SWORE I thought of that possibility, and maybe part of me shunned it as being too stupid, the other part thought it may happen as it would be such a shock surprise - so part of me now thinks I could be a writer for such stuff, the other part not so sure, and then both parts not even being sure I should or shouldn't because I don't even know if I DID think that scene up in the first place. As Havoc said, I confuse myself.

- Oh yeah, and when Rhaegar comes back - he'll be wearing motherfucking ARMOUR!

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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby TheBaxter on Mon May 06, 2019 9:32 pm

Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:Normally when a film wants to suggest that a character has died, but really hasn't, it kinda shortchanges the emotion of their death and never does a full on complete death scene with more time devoted to seeing that character die and with other people's reactions - and then later on that character reveals itself to still be alive. Which is how Rhaegar's 'death' felt here.


you'd think that. but this show obviously doesn't consider the nonhuman characters worthy of the same respect. just look how they treated Ghost.

Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote: - Oh yeah, and when Rhaegar comes back - he'll be wearing motherfucking ARMOUR!


nope. they're going to dredge up dead Rhaegal, skin him, and then turn his skin into armor for Drogon. so Drogon will have double dragon skin armor, making him invulnerable to those spears, and he'll be flying around burning people up like a flying Leatherface. that's what put the fear into Euron in that trailer shot.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby TheBaxter on Mon May 06, 2019 11:02 pm

so sorry wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:i will say, seeing some of the other reaction to the last couple episodes in particular, makes me feel less alone in feeling that this show is tanking. last season had its issues but at least it was mostly fun and exciting enough to overlook them. this season, 2/3 in now, and it's like, they went away for 2 years and to finish things up over 6 episodes, and we end up with THIS? at this point, i'm just expecting mostly mindless spectacle and unearned shock moments, and pretty much given up on the complexity and greater themes that were a part of the earlier seasons.


I second that emotion. If there's one huge upside for me, personally, its that one of my fears a few years ago was the show ruining my enjoyment of the final books. There's now way in hell GRRM publishes the remaining novels with this level of writing or pacing. Shit, the only thing they may have in common at the end is who sits the iron throne, and practically nothing similar of how he/she/it got there.


the irony is that the books have the opposite problem. whereas the show became more streamlined and rushed, the books became too bloated and overly complicated. so much so that now Martin seems unable to figure out how to tie together all the threads into a coherent ending, hence his endlessly delaying finishing off the series.

still, it's clear now that the success of the series was thanks in large part to Martin and the framework he laid out in the early books, and the showrunners were just the lucky beneficiaries of his work. since they've moved past the books and been forced to tell their own version of the story, all the meticulous planning and attention to detail that Martin invested in the series has been lost, and it's become clear they don't have the talent or ability that Martin has to tell a cohesive story. that's why things like the distance and travel times between Westerosi kingdoms matters. the fact that the showrunners can so casually dismiss the importance of those kinds of details, just so they can hurry the show along and get to the next big plot point, is a clear difference from the care and attention to detail that Martin exhibits, it's importance to making this world as believable as possible so that when the unbelievable DOES happen (like dragons being born or Jon Snow returning from the dead) it's that much easier to accept. the showrunners attitude towards those points shows they don't understand what it is that makes the books, and the earlier seasons of the show based on them, so successful. and HBO shares in the blame for deciding to rush this thing to an ending, instead of giving it the time necessary to construct a satisfying conclusion. whatever their reasons, i'm worried it has resulted in an ending for the series that will be unsatisfying, disappointing, and will taint much of what was so good about this show in the beginning.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby Al Shut on Tue May 07, 2019 10:30 am

Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:I'm betting that Rhaegar is not dead. Who's with me, or gonna get burned for disagreeing?


WTF ... oh wait you're talking about the dragon. :oops: The original Rhaegar not being dead would be a twist I didn't see coming.


TheBaxter wrote:
Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:Normally when a film wants to suggest that a character has died, but really hasn't, it kinda shortchanges the emotion of their death and never does a full on complete death scene with more time devoted to seeing that character die and with other people's reactions - and then later on that character reveals itself to still be alive. Which is how Rhaegar's 'death' felt here.


you'd think that. but this show obviously doesn't consider the nonhuman characters worthy of the same respect. just look how they treated Ghost.


That only means that by Kirk's logic Ghost could return too. As a Ghost ?!? :shock:
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby TheBaxter on Tue May 07, 2019 10:54 am

Al Shut wrote:
Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:I'm betting that Rhaegar is not dead. Who's with me, or gonna get burned for disagreeing?


WTF ... oh wait you're talking about the dragon. :oops: The original Rhaegar not being dead would be a twist I didn't see coming.


TheBaxter wrote:
Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:Normally when a film wants to suggest that a character has died, but really hasn't, it kinda shortchanges the emotion of their death and never does a full on complete death scene with more time devoted to seeing that character die and with other people's reactions - and then later on that character reveals itself to still be alive. Which is how Rhaegar's 'death' felt here.


you'd think that. but this show obviously doesn't consider the nonhuman characters worthy of the same respect. just look how they treated Ghost.


That only means that by Kirk's logic Ghost could return too. As a Ghost ?!? :shock:


in the finale, we'll find out they've ALL been ghosts the whole time... except the White Walkers, who were actually all living, and were just trying to bring all their friends back from the dead.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby Peven on Tue May 07, 2019 11:16 am

so I guess you guys won't bother with watching the last 2 episodes since the show has gone to total shit now. right? :-P :lol: of COURSE you'll watch, otherwise how could you bitch and complain and try act all smug and superior afterwards as if you could have done so much better, as can be shown by your past work. :roll: :lol: middle-aged teenagers
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby Wolfpack on Tue May 07, 2019 12:29 pm

TheBaxter wrote:
Al Shut wrote:
Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:I'm betting that Rhaegar is not dead. Who's with me, or gonna get burned for disagreeing?


WTF ... oh wait you're talking about the dragon. :oops: The original Rhaegar not being dead would be a twist I didn't see coming.


TheBaxter wrote:
Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:Normally when a film wants to suggest that a character has died, but really hasn't, it kinda shortchanges the emotion of their death and never does a full on complete death scene with more time devoted to seeing that character die and with other people's reactions - and then later on that character reveals itself to still be alive. Which is how Rhaegar's 'death' felt here.


you'd think that. but this show obviously doesn't consider the nonhuman characters worthy of the same respect. just look how they treated Ghost.


That only means that by Kirk's logic Ghost could return too. As a Ghost ?!? :shock:


in the finale, we'll find out they've ALL been ghosts the whole time... except the White Walkers, who were actually all living, and were just trying to bring all their friends back from the dead.


No, we're going to find out it all took place in modern times. The people of Westeros have been living extremely sheltered lives but now a construction company called White & Walker is encroaching on their homes to build a new football stadium.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby Al Shut on Tue May 07, 2019 12:31 pm

Peven wrote:so I guess you guys won't bother with watching the last 2 episodes since the show has gone to total shit now. right? :-P :lol: of COURSE you'll watch, otherwise how could you bitch and complain and try act all smug and superior afterwards as if you could have done so much better, as can be shown by your past work. :roll: :lol: middle-aged teenagers


Well I won't, for about at least two years I reckon.

And of course I don't need to in order to bitch about it, or at least make some wannabe smart but actually half assed comments.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby TheBaxter on Tue May 07, 2019 4:20 pm

Peven wrote:so I guess you guys won't bother with watching the last 2 episodes since the show has gone to total shit now. right? :-P :lol: of COURSE you'll watch, otherwise how could you bitch and complain and try act all smug and superior afterwards as if you could have done so much better, as can be shown by your past work. :roll: :lol: middle-aged teenagers


don't worry Peven, none of us can come close to competing with you when it comes to acting smug and superior.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby Ribbons on Tue May 07, 2019 9:34 pm

TheBaxter wrote:
so sorry wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:i will say, seeing some of the other reaction to the last couple episodes in particular, makes me feel less alone in feeling that this show is tanking. last season had its issues but at least it was mostly fun and exciting enough to overlook them. this season, 2/3 in now, and it's like, they went away for 2 years and to finish things up over 6 episodes, and we end up with THIS? at this point, i'm just expecting mostly mindless spectacle and unearned shock moments, and pretty much given up on the complexity and greater themes that were a part of the earlier seasons.


I second that emotion. If there's one huge upside for me, personally, its that one of my fears a few years ago was the show ruining my enjoyment of the final books. There's now way in hell GRRM publishes the remaining novels with this level of writing or pacing. Shit, the only thing they may have in common at the end is who sits the iron throne, and practically nothing similar of how he/she/it got there.


the irony is that the books have the opposite problem. whereas the show became more streamlined and rushed, the books became too bloated and overly complicated. so much so that now Martin seems unable to figure out how to tie together all the threads into a coherent ending, hence his endlessly delaying finishing off the series.

still, it's clear now that the success of the series was thanks in large part to Martin and the framework he laid out in the early books, and the showrunners were just the lucky beneficiaries of his work. since they've moved past the books and been forced to tell their own version of the story, all the meticulous planning and attention to detail that Martin invested in the series has been lost, and it's become clear they don't have the talent or ability that Martin has to tell a cohesive story. that's why things like the distance and travel times between Westerosi kingdoms matters. the fact that the showrunners can so casually dismiss the importance of those kinds of details, just so they can hurry the show along and get to the next big plot point, is a clear difference from the care and attention to detail that Martin exhibits, it's importance to making this world as believable as possible so that when the unbelievable DOES happen (like dragons being born or Jon Snow returning from the dead) it's that much easier to accept. the showrunners attitude towards those points shows they don't understand what it is that makes the books, and the earlier seasons of the show based on them, so successful. and HBO shares in the blame for deciding to rush this thing to an ending, instead of giving it the time necessary to construct a satisfying conclusion. whatever their reasons, i'm worried it has resulted in an ending for the series that will be unsatisfying, disappointing, and will taint much of what was so good about this show in the beginning.


And we haven't even gotten to the GODDAMN COFFEE CUP:


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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby Wolfpack on Tue May 07, 2019 9:43 pm

What's to hate? There's a Starbucks on the corner of every fucking place. They're really expanding their business.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby TheBaxter on Tue May 07, 2019 11:09 pm

Ribbons wrote:And we haven't even gotten to the GODDAMN COFFEE CUP:


i got to that a whole page ago. we're just lucky the white walkers were defeated, or it may have been Baskin Robbins instead.

but i do have a new theory now on who will ultimately end up sitting on the iron throne:















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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby Peven on Wed May 08, 2019 1:57 pm

so anytime something is left in frame that isn't supposed to be there that means the movie/show is trash and the people who made it were just plain lazy....interesting. :roll:


this is supposed to be a board populated with people who love movies and yet there is no recognition that mistakes like the coffee cup are not that uncommon, even in productions that are award-winning. you can find a plethora of examples of them on youtube. Raiders of the Lost Ark left the reflection of the cobra during the tomb scene in the final cut. gee, i guess Spielberg was a real hack who didn't care about the quality of the movie. it is pathetic how little appreciation or awareness is shown here for what goes in to producing a quality movie or tv series.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby TheBaxter on Wed May 08, 2019 1:58 pm

the more i think about it, the more i'm convinced the Mad Dany storyline is a fake-out. from the very beginning, the most triumphant, iconic, stand-up-and-cheer moments on this show have belonged to Danaerys: burning the slavers, retaking Meereen, riding her dragon out of the slave pits, burning down the Dothraki temple and walking out of the flames unburnt. all these moments, and the fact that she's the motherfrakking MOTHER OF DRAGONS, have made her a fan favorite, and i don't think the showrunners have the guts to piss off the amount of people they would piss off by turning her into an evil villain at the very end. yes, they've also established she has some violent and ruthless tendencies, such as the crucifixions of the slave masters, burning the Tarlys, etc. but every time she comes close to going too far over the edge, she remembers her past and her lineage and comes back to the right track. she's killed a bunch of people, some rather brutally, but she's yet to senselessly kill the innocent and it would be out of character for her to start now. also, whenever backed into a corner she has always figured out a way out, usually by using her enemies underestimation of her against them. the slavers who didn't realize she spoke Valyrian... the Sons of the Harpy who thought she was gone and never coming back... the Dothraki keeping her prisoner in a straw building with torches. she is now set up to pull something similar in 805.

i think she will come very close to making a kamikaze attack on the city, willing to risk her life and her dragon to take out Cersei out of vengeance. she'll divebomb the city, make it past the spears (maybe with the help of some Valyrian dragon armor she happens to find lying around the dungeons of Dragonstone) and just be about to burn it all down, and then she'll see all the innocent women and children huddled inside the city gates, and her fundamental decency will get the better of her and she'll veer off at the last minute, returning to her armies and demanding they find a better way into the city that won't risk so many lives. Tyrion will give Varys a knowing look, and Varys will look very uneasy since he's already put a plot in motion to get rid of Dany. nevertheless, if anyone knows their way around the underground tunnels of Kings Landing, it's Varys thanks to his little birds. realizing he was wrong to doubt Dany, he'll tell them everything he knows so they can begin planning a secret infiltration of the city (perhaps involving Arya and the Hound, who have arrived just ahead of Jon and his armies), and then he'll rush off to try to stop the plot against Dany that he has instigated (perhaps a hired assassin named Bronn?) and this is how Varys will end up dying, trying to save Dany but it's too late. meanwhile, in a mirror of their Winterfell strategy, Jon will lead the outer assault on the castle to distract Cersei's forces and allow the infiltration team unimpeded access to get to the keep. Arya will try to kill Cersei, but this time she'll be stopped by the Mountain, who then faces off with the Hound in their inevitable fight, probably ending with both of them dead. Cersei will think she's safe, only to have Jaime show up and fulfill his destiny by killing her and becoming the KingANDQueenSlayer. back outside, as the battle is winding down, Dany is flying air support on her armored dragon, and she sees the battle is going well... somehow she gets a sign that Cersei has been defeated (lowering the Lannister banners from the keep or something) and just as she's ready to celebrate, one of those dragon spears catches her and sends her flying off Drogon to her death. remember... this is the show that killed off Tywin Lannister on Father's Day. with this Sunday being Mother's Day, it would only be appropriate for them to kill off both the Mad Queen Mother Cersei and Danaerys, the Mother of Dragons.
Last edited by TheBaxter on Wed May 08, 2019 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby TheBaxter on Wed May 08, 2019 2:02 pm

Peven wrote:so anytime something is left in frame that isn't supposed to be there that means the movie/show is trash and the people who made it were just plain lazy....interesting. :roll:


this is supposed to be a board populated with people who love movies and yet there is no recognition that mistakes like the coffee cup are not that uncommon, even in productions that are award-winning. you can find a plethora of examples of them on youtube. Raiders of the Lost Ark left the reflection of the cobra during the tomb scene in the final cut. gee, i guess Spielberg was a real hack who didn't care about the quality of the movie. it is pathetic how little appreciation or awareness is shown here for what goes in to producing a quality movie or tv series.


your posts really are becoming just too dumb to even bother replying too. there are a few people out there who might be saying what you are accusing them of saying, but the vast majority of US are making fun of a funny mistake that most of US never even noticed while actually watching the show. but i guess it's not easy telling the difference between withering criticism and casual jokes when you suffer from a complete lack of a sense of humor.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby so sorry on Wed May 08, 2019 3:22 pm

Peven wrote:so anytime something is left in frame that isn't supposed to be there that means the movie/show is trash and the people who made it were just plain lazy....interesting. :roll:


this is supposed to be a board populated with people who love movies and yet there is no recognition that mistakes like the coffee cup are not that uncommon, even in productions that are award-winning. you can find a plethora of examples of them on youtube. Raiders of the Lost Ark left the reflection of the cobra during the tomb scene in the final cut. gee, i guess Spielberg was a real hack who didn't care about the quality of the movie. it is pathetic how little appreciation or awareness is shown here for what goes in to producing a quality movie or tv series.


Jeebus Peven, lighten the hell up.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby Cpt Kirks 2pay on Wed May 08, 2019 4:47 pm

TheBaxter wrote:one of those dragon spears catches her and sends her flying off Drogon to her death.


Everything you said is interesting, but I don't think Dany's death will be that facepalmingly conveniently random. The writings not that bad.

If she dies, it will through some interesting means of character and relationship.

Also, please use paragraphs. I had to re-read about 2 sentences 3-5 times as it's so hard to follow where some of your sentences are.

It's not like you have trouble reading this post is it?

...Or any of them.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby Wolfpack on Wed May 08, 2019 7:03 pm

You can cut the sexual tension on this message board with a knife.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby TheBaxter on Thu May 09, 2019 3:45 pm

Wolfpack wrote:You can cut the sexual tension on this message board with a Valyrian steel dagger.


fixed.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby TheBaxter on Fri May 10, 2019 4:53 pm

Cersei is so determined to hold on to power in King's Landing, she's apparently willing to move mountains
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby so sorry on Fri May 10, 2019 4:57 pm

TheBaxter wrote:Cersei is so determined to hold on to power in King's Landing, she's apparently willing to move mountains



Yikes.

One thing I forgot to ask, what's your opinion on where Greyworm etc washed up on shore? Am I supposed to believe that a few ships got away from the Greyjoy fleet, but were so badly damaged that the survivors had to swim to shore on Dragonstone? That was another jarring moment of WTF for me.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby TheBaxter on Sun May 12, 2019 11:23 pm

Things I Learned From This Season of GoT:

1) women are too emotionally fragile to be leaders... especially blond women.

2) colored people are scary. they're rapists, they're murderers... and some, i assume, are good people.

one more episode to go. let's cheer on the great white hope Jon Snow and pray he can save the good white people of Westeros from the crazy dragon lady and her hordes of scary dark-skinned immigrants. #mwga
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby Ribbons on Mon May 13, 2019 1:59 am

It'll be interesting to see if next week's episode even attempts to explain what was going through Daenerys's mind when she decided to murder an entire city's worth of people for funsies, or if we're just supposed to be rooting for Arya to merc her now because bitches get got. I'm still hoping for some context and closure in the wake of what happened. My initial reaction is revulsion at the way they handled this twist. Subverting expectations is a staple of GRRM's Song of Ice and Fire series, but it never once felt cheap and manufactured before tonight.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby TheBaxter on Mon May 13, 2019 3:17 am

Ribbons wrote:It'll be interesting to see if next week's episode even attempts to explain what was going through Daenerys's mind when she decided to murder an entire city's worth of people for funsies, or if we're just supposed to be rooting for Arya to merc her now because bitches get got. I'm still hoping for some context and closure in the wake of what happened. My initial reaction is revulsion at the way they handled this twist. Subverting expectations is a staple of GRRM's Song of Ice and Fire series, but it never once felt cheap and manufactured before tonight.


what was going through Dany's head? they made that obvious... the man she loves won't love her back. apparently that's enough to make a shrill, nasty woman go all nuclear on a city full of innocent people.

yes, GoT is full of twists. the biggest twist of all: the show i thought was subverting the typical sexism and misogyny of the fantasy genre, was really just building up to its own sexist misogynist plotline the whole time.

don't worry though, the white male dumbass who has been blundering his way through season after season of this show is now perfectly positioned to assume his rightful pre-ordained place on top.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby Peven on Mon May 13, 2019 9:23 am

I want to know why you hate children so much, bax. this show has treated kids pretty brutally and yet not a peep from you about it. you must really hate children. i mean, that is, if we're going to use the same simple-minded 14 yr old teenage logic you're using to claim the show is racist and misogynistic. you're fine with the explanation given for why the Mad King went mad after being a level headed ruler for years but when Dany goes mad it must be because of a misogynist writer?

you're predictable if nothing else, predictably simple and shallow-minded


you will still be there to watch the final episode, though, won't you? even though you have proclaimed how despicable the writers are and how terrible the message is you'll be there watching. :-P :lol:
Last edited by Peven on Mon May 13, 2019 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby so sorry on Mon May 13, 2019 9:49 am

I don't even know where to begin....

We all saw the obvious Dany going all Mad Queen, so that wasn't a surprise (unless you were expecting the surprise to be her NOT going psycho). What I didn't get was why her decision was to literally lay waste to the entire city, instead of just flying straight to the Red Keep and destroying Cersei and the Lannister forces (and yes, the innocents she had in the Keep). How will they attempt to explain Dany's reasoning of "burn them all" instead of "burn the ones who defy me"?

The power of this dragon's breath... Jeebus, that was insane. It looked cool, don't get me wrong, but wtf with him being able to blow shit up!

Interesting to see the small pockets of wildfire going up around the city... Cersei's last revenge?

Cleganebowl: just too worked up over the past few seasons (from fans perspective too), there was no way it was going to really deliver. It was cool, the effects were cool, but there's just no way Sandor should have been able to survive that amount of punishment and still have the energy to throw a mountain of a man (an undead man) thru a stone wall (yes, a structurally weakened wall). It was a meh moment for me, outside of the effects. I did like how Cersei realized she was in no danger at that moment, and was like "peace out bros". I would have preferred Qyburn to get a more grisly death.

The Golden Company: man, I really thought my theory that they would turn on Cersei would come true. Instead they just... well, just died. So much for the greatest sellswords.

The Dothraki: wtf, were did they all come from? Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. In the coming attactions it looks like there were a few thousand of them still, same with the Unsullied. All these naval battles that they lost, and yet there are still thousands left?

Jon: I don't know what to say... if he loves his queen, and LOVES his queen, then why not go all in and just shack up with her. The incest thing isn't holding water in this scenario.

Tyrion and Varys: did Varys get his treasonous messages out of Dragonstone before he got crispy? I'm sure they did. Tyrion ratting him out, that was well acted. Always liked these guys together. Too bad one of them had to be on the wrong side.

Tyrion and Jamie: maybe the best scene of the episode. Touching.

Jamie and Cersei: so it only took an entire city to burn in front of her, her unstoppable bodyguard to abandon her, and the walls to crumble around her before she had a change of heart :? . Went out with a whimper. Unsatisfying death for both of them.

Jamie and Euron: did someone pull a prank on Euron and switch out his blade for one of those dummy daggers that doesn't really work? Cause two 12 inch dagger wounds to either side of your abdominal cavity I think would do a little more damage than that!

Greyworm: OMG just fucking DIE ALREADY.

Arya: I don't know, I wasn't feeling her change of feelings. From cold hearted killer, to what, a compassionate human being? Seems like her last move will be to kill Dany now, unless Jon does.


I can't see how they can possibly wrap this up in one more show, so my theory is that the show will end with Dany on the Iron throne, but no one on her side, and Jon back in the north, preparing to lead a new unified Westeros against her. Fade to black??????
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby TheBaxter on Mon May 13, 2019 11:45 am

so sorry wrote:We all saw the obvious Dany going all Mad Queen, so that wasn't a surprise (unless you were expecting the surprise to be her NOT going psycho). What I didn't get was why her decision was to literally lay waste to the entire city, instead of just flying straight to the Red Keep and destroying Cersei and the Lannister forces (and yes, the innocents she had in the Keep). How will they attempt to explain Dany's reasoning of "burn them all" instead of "burn the ones who defy me"?


the same way they "explain" any of the questionable stuff on this show the past couple seasons, which is, they won't. at this point in the story, the two people she has the most rage towards are Cersei (who holds the throne she believes is rightly hers) and Jon (the man she loves who betrayed her). she's got the red keep in her sights, not a single thing standing in her way, and instead she flies around and around in circles just blasting innocent people with dragonfire instead. hell, it's the sight of the red keep that drives her over the edge at that very moment. it makes zero sense whatsoever, mad queen or no mad queen, to do what she does. but, it shows just how EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL she's become, which is more important i guess. and it gives Jon another chance to wear his befuddled face.

as for the innocents in the red keep... where were they? once the hound and arya made it inside, we didn't see anyone else in there but cersei, qyburn, the mountain and a few other queensguard.

so sorry wrote:Interesting to see the small pockets of wildfire going up around the city... Cersei's last revenge?


i liked the reminder of the wildfire. i can't imagine cersei planned that, if she knew they had anymore wildfire left i'm sure she would have deployed it as part of her defense to try to take out the dragon, or on Dany's forces. i think it was just a reminder that there were still pockets of this stuff left around, which is also a reminder storywise of how Cersei got to her position in the first place.

so sorry wrote:Cleganebowl: just too worked up over the past few seasons (from fans perspective too), there was no way it was going to really deliver. It was cool, the effects were cool, but there's just no way Sandor should have been able to survive that amount of punishment and still have the energy to throw a mountain of a man (an undead man) thru a stone wall (yes, a structurally weakened wall). It was a meh moment for me, outside of the effects. I did like how Cersei realized she was in no danger at that moment, and was like "peace out bros". I would have preferred Qyburn to get a more grisly death.


i liked it, maybe because i wasn't that invested in it. we all expected it, but i never really thought it would live up to all the build up people have made it into over the years, so i guess it exceeded my expectations. the shot of them facing off with the dragon flying in the background is one of the most beautiful shots this show has ever composed, like a gothic painting come to life. the fight played out pretty much the only way it could, though i expected him to actually behead gregor (payoff for all the people he's beheaded).

so sorry wrote:The Golden Company: man, I really thought my theory that they would turn on Cersei would come true. Instead they just... well, just died. So much for the greatest sellswords.


never thought they'd really be very important, and they weren't. it was funny though how they took down two of Dany's dragons to "even the odds" only to turn around and show how one single dragon, even against an armada of dragon-killing spears, is pretty much invincible and cersei's only chance was another lucky shot.

so sorry wrote:The Dothraki: wtf, were did they all come from? Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. In the coming attactions it looks like there were a few thousand of them still, same with the Unsullied. All these naval battles that they lost, and yet there are still thousands left?


the only explanation is that she held extra dothraki and unsullied in reserve, instead of wasting them all against the army of the dead. which makes sense, since they really only served as a distraction and delaying tactic in that battle anyway, but it could have been spelled out more clearly.

so sorry wrote:Jon: I don't know what to say... if he loves his queen, and LOVES his queen, then why not go all in and just shack up with her. The incest thing isn't holding water in this scenario.


if he had any brains, he would have at least pretended to be ok with it until Dany got the throne. then he could have played the duty card... "oh, i heard there was another White Walker seen north of the wall, im gonna go check it out for the next few years or decades, don't wait up!" but as this show has repeatedly demonstrated, Jon is not the brightest candle in the crypt, so to speak. Jaime may be the stupidest Lannister, but Jon is the stupidest Stark AND the stupidest Targaryen, and who knows, he's probably like 1/64th Lannister or something too so that would make him the stupidest Lannister as well. he knows nothing, and demonstrates it every chance he gets. and of course he'll end up on the throne, because "prophecy" and "destiny" and shit.

so sorry wrote:Jamie and Cersei: so it only took an entire city to burn in front of her, her unstoppable bodyguard to abandon her, and the walls to crumble around her before she had a change of heart :? . Went out with a whimper. Unsatisfying death for both of them.


there were too many people who cersei deserved to get killed by, so i'm fine with her just getting buried under rubble, like any other anonymous peasant in the city she doomed. i enjoyed seeing her denial of her situation slowly crumble away over the course of the episode, until she finally realized just how much her dumbassery had cost her. that's probably more painful a way to go for her than any grisly violent death administered by Arya or Jon.

ultimately i liked it for jaime too. when he left winterfell, we all wondered if he was going back to save Cersei or to kill her. turns out it was neither. he realized she was doomed, and decided he wanted to die beside her, out of some combination of love and self-loathing. it actually reflected the emotional complexity of his character in a way that has been largely abandoned for most everyone else left on this show.

so sorry wrote:Jamie and Euron: did someone pull a prank on Euron and switch out his blade for one of those dummy daggers that doesn't really work? Cause two 12 inch dagger wounds to either side of your abdominal cavity I think would do a little more damage than that!


now that was an unsatisfying "death", especially since we don't see him actually die, just spout off about "i killed Jaime Lannister". if anyone deserved a long, slow roasting on the pit with dragonfire it was this dude.

so sorry wrote:Greyworm: OMG just fucking DIE ALREADY.
don't worry, he will. you don't think they'd leave the last dark-skinned character alive now, do you?

so sorry wrote:I can't see how they can possibly wrap this up in one more show, so my theory is that the show will end with Dany on the Iron throne, but no one on her side, and Jon back in the north, preparing to lead a new unified Westeros against her. Fade to black??????


for a while now, and especially after the Winterfell episode, i've basically imagined the final shot of this show being a long pull-out of Jon sitting on the Iron Throne, slumped and defeated-looking, as the camera pulls out on a devastated city surrounding him. that feels even more likely now. this last episode set up the Jon vs. Dany final showdown pretty definitively, and i'm certain that's what we'll get in the last 90 minutes of this show. if you don't think they can wrap that up in one episode, what season have you been watching? they wrapped up the Night King in one episode, they wrapped up Cersei vs. Dany in one episode, so i have no doubt they'll cram in as much as they need to to wrap up the final Jon/Dany showdown in one episode too. the only prediction i'll make is that it WON'T be a big battle episode, they'll build up to it like it's gonna be, but this time Dany will get taken out some other way, by Arya (most predictable) or, perhaps, by Tyrion (if he's still allowed to be her advisor at this point; it would make a neat parallel, Jaime killed the Mad King and Tyrion kills the Mad Queen; like brother, like brother), before she gets the chance to burn up Jon's troops, because after Kings Landing, there's obviously no way Dany can be beat while she's on her dragon anymore.

which leads to the most important question of all: what happens to Drogon? does Jon get him now? does Tyrion (after finding out he's secretly a Targaryen too)? do they put him down like a rabid dog who's crazy owner just died? or does he fly up north, pick up Ghost, and the two of them ride back across the sea to Essos muttering "crazy fucking white people"?
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby Peven on Mon May 13, 2019 12:02 pm

so sorry wrote:I don't even know where to begin....

We all saw the obvious Dany going all Mad Queen, so that wasn't a surprise (unless you were expecting the surprise to be her NOT going psycho). What I didn't get was why her decision was to literally lay waste to the entire city, instead of just flying straight to the Red Keep and destroying Cersei and the Lannister forces (and yes, the innocents she had in the Keep). How will they attempt to explain Dany's reasoning of "burn them all" instead of "burn the ones who defy me"?

The power of this dragon's breath... Jeebus, that was insane. It looked cool, don't get me wrong, but wtf with him being able to blow shit up!

Interesting to see the small pockets of wildfire going up around the city... Cersei's last revenge?

Cleganebowl: just too worked up over the past few seasons (from fans perspective too), there was no way it was going to really deliver. It was cool, the effects were cool, but there's just no way Sandor should have been able to survive that amount of punishment and still have the energy to throw a mountain of a man (an undead man) thru a stone wall (yes, a structurally weakened wall). It was a meh moment for me, outside of the effects. I did like how Cersei realized she was in no danger at that moment, and was like "peace out bros". I would have preferred Qyburn to get a more grisly death.

The Golden Company: man, I really thought my theory that they would turn on Cersei would come true. Instead they just... well, just died. So much for the greatest sellswords.

The Dothraki: wtf, were did they all come from? Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. In the coming attactions it looks like there were a few thousand of them still, same with the Unsullied. All these naval battles that they lost, and yet there are still thousands left?

Jon: I don't know what to say... if he loves his queen, and LOVES his queen, then why not go all in and just shack up with her. The incest thing isn't holding water in this scenario.

Tyrion and Varys: did Varys get his treasonous messages out of Dragonstone before he got crispy? I'm sure they did. Tyrion ratting him out, that was well acted. Always liked these guys together. Too bad one of them had to be on the wrong side.

Tyrion and Jamie: maybe the best scene of the episode. Touching.

Jamie and Cersei: so it only took an entire city to burn in front of her, her unstoppable bodyguard to abandon her, and the walls to crumble around her before she had a change of heart :? . Went out with a whimper. Unsatisfying death for both of them.

Jamie and Euron: did someone pull a prank on Euron and switch out his blade for one of those dummy daggers that doesn't really work? Cause two 12 inch dagger wounds to either side of your abdominal cavity I think would do a little more damage than that!

Greyworm: OMG just fucking DIE ALREADY.

Arya: I don't know, I wasn't feeling her change of feelings. From cold hearted killer, to what, a compassionate human being? Seems like her last move will be to kill Dany now, unless Jon does.


I can't see how they can possibly wrap this up in one more show, so my theory is that the show will end with Dany on the Iron throne, but no one on her side, and Jon back in the north, preparing to lead a new unified Westeros against her. Fade to black??????



reasonable enough. i agree that Cersei's death was not as satisfying as i had been hoping for and Jamie surviving Euron's daggers was a bit much to be sure. i was really looking forward to seeing them face a more grisly end. Clyborn's exit was anti-climatic as well. fuck Tyrion. :D
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby TheBaxter on Mon May 13, 2019 12:49 pm

Peven wrote:I want to know why you hate children so much, bax. this show has treated kids pretty brutally and yet not a peep from you about it. you must really hate children. i mean, that is, if we're going to use the same simple-minded 14 yr old teenage logic you're using to claim the show is racist and misogynistic. you're fine with the explanation given for why the Mad King went mad after being a level headed ruler for years but when Dany goes mad it must be because of a misogynist writer?

you're predictable if nothing else, predictably simple and shallow-minded


you will still be there to watch the final episode, though, won't you? even though you have proclaimed how despicable the writers are and how terrible the message is you'll be there watching. :-P :lol:


right, because you've complained about all the child-killing on this show SO MANY TIMES yourself. i guess we both hate children then. at least i don't have a job that puts me around them on a daily basis.

nevermind the MANY TIMES i've brought up Jon Snow executing a child by hanging. don't remember you having a problem with it though.

i have no problem with a show that shows rape and murder and the deaths of children because that stuff happens, it happens now, it happened in the past, it's happened throughout history and definitely happened a lot during the medieval era which this kind of fantasy show is based around. to NOT show that stuff, to pretend it doesn't happen, is to sanitize the kind of world this show takes place in. it's why i never bought into all the complaints about how this show used to treat women, how it showed them getting raped and tortured, or how the show primarily featured non-white people as "savage" tribes or slaves. because dramatizing something is not the same as endorsing it. THAT is simple-minded and shallow. i always felt like, when this show was at its prime, it showed that stuff happening to demonstrate how evil or corrupt this world and the people leading it were. and it was always counterbalanced by the portrayals of individual characters who were strong and complex, who defied the stereotypes that typically infest this kind of D&D fantasy genre, which lets be clear, has always been a primarily white-male-driven fantasy genre that reflected the biases and preconceptions of it's mostly white-male writers and mostly white-male audience. it's not that they are misogynist and sexist on purpose, but they unwittingly reflect the white privilege and male privilege that has been ingrained in them since birth, and it comes out in their writing. and it appears it is finally coming out in the writing on this show in the final season. again, not on purpose, i'm sure they don't even realize it... which makes it that much more problematic, since nobody likes having their inherent prejudices pointed out to them.

GRRM always seemed to be subverting those tropes in the books, and for as long as the show followed the books, they effectively portrayed many of the female characters as strong, complex, independent people. but this show, in its rush to bring things to a close, has devolved to reducing its characters to stereotypes. problem is, those stereotypes reflect the exact biases and unconscious prejudices that formed those stereotypes in the first place. that's how we get to a place where:

- Brienne, a strong and noble warrior, is reduced to a blubbering mess after the man she has pined over for years sleeps with her and then leaves her
- Sansa attributes her strength and maturation to being raped and tortured, saying if she hadn't been, she'd still be a stupid little girl
- Danaerys, after being jilted by her lover and seeing her friend murdered, descends into madness and decides to just randomly kill everyone in her path, abandoning every trace of everything she learned on her journey, all the lessons in leadership and compassion from her first queenship in Meereen, and so on, instead being reduced to an emotionally fragile, rage-driven psycho bitch

and as for the Dothraki and Unsullied, they've been reduced to nothing more than props. for all the time we spent with the Dothraki in season 1, all they are now is a bunch of screaming guys on horses. and Grey Worm, the character who was built up to humanize the unsullied, to show that these guys who were mutilated at birth and raised as nothing more than unfeeling killing machines, could still regain their humanity and have rich emotional lives and connections to others, now he's reduced to nothing but a vengeful killer fueled by rage all over again. recidivism at its best. if you can't see how troubling it is when every non-white character on a show like this is reduced to such simplistic stereotyping, then that's on you. i guess you're not as over your own white male privilege as you think you are.

these criticisms have been around for a while, and i never gave them much credence, because the show always seemed to be building to something that would undercut them. strong female characters, some mostly good, some mostly bad, all of them driven by complicated emotions and rationales, all being just as important as the male characters, gave me hope that this series could be something more, something that would break the mold of traditional fantasy. sadly, it appears not, and i have to admit now those critics turned out to be right.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby Al Shut on Mon May 13, 2019 1:01 pm

Who needs Game of Thrones if he has you guys.

I wonder if the show has a tendency to actively not taking the route of the books and if so, if that is a good idea. I'm pretty convinced the books are going for the not very suprising twist of Jaime killing Cersei when she is afraid of Tyrion the whole time.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby TheBaxter on Mon May 13, 2019 1:30 pm

Al Shut wrote:I wonder if the show has a tendency to actively not taking the route of the books


fingers crossed.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby TheBaxter on Mon May 13, 2019 1:49 pm

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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby so sorry on Mon May 13, 2019 3:52 pm

TheBaxter wrote:
Al Shut wrote:I wonder if the show has a tendency to actively not taking the route of the books


fingers crossed.



Seriously.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby Peven on Mon May 13, 2019 4:58 pm

so sorry wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:
Al Shut wrote:I wonder if the show has a tendency to actively not taking the route of the books


fingers crossed.



Seriously.


I don't know, in all seriousness, how likely do you think it is that Martin's version is going to be THAT far off of the version we are seeing now when it comes to major plot points? if his has an alternate ending where Dany winds up on top in a predictable, goody goody, cliché, fairy tale ending that satisfies the desires of her fans then I will be surprised. possible, but i'd be surprised. I expect more from him.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby so sorry on Mon May 13, 2019 5:10 pm

Peven wrote:
so sorry wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:
Al Shut wrote:I wonder if the show has a tendency to actively not taking the route of the books


fingers crossed.



Seriously.


I don't know, in all seriousness, how likely do you think it is that Martin's version is going to be THAT far off of the version we are seeing now when it comes to major plot points? if his has an alternate ending where Dany winds up on top in a predictable, goody goody, cliché, fairy tale ending that satisfies the desires of her fans then I will be surprised. possible, but i'd be surprised. I expect more from him.


No I expect Dany to be twisted by the end of the novels, but he certainly doesn't have to "rush" the story like the show. I think that's what we all mean, ultimately the same outcome, but with a much more thought out, fleshed out, and more expertly written way.

BUT, if for some reason the book outcome was different, there would absolutely be people saying that Martin changed his mind after watching the show!
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby TheBaxter on Tue May 14, 2019 12:17 am

so sorry wrote:
Peven wrote:
so sorry wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:
Al Shut wrote:I wonder if the show has a tendency to actively not taking the route of the books


fingers crossed.



Seriously.


I don't know, in all seriousness, how likely do you think it is that Martin's version is going to be THAT far off of the version we are seeing now when it comes to major plot points? if his has an alternate ending where Dany winds up on top in a predictable, goody goody, cliché, fairy tale ending that satisfies the desires of her fans then I will be surprised. possible, but i'd be surprised. I expect more from him.


No I expect Dany to be twisted by the end of the novels, but he certainly doesn't have to "rush" the story like the show. I think that's what we all mean, ultimately the same outcome, but with a much more thought out, fleshed out, and more expertly written way.

BUT, if for some reason the book outcome was different, there would absolutely be people saying that Martin changed his mind after watching the show!


exactly. it's well known that GRRM shared the basic outline of his ending for the series with the showrunners. major plot points, such as the origin of Hodor's name and the burning of Stannis' daughter, for instance, have basically been confirmed as having come from GRRM's plans. but it's also been noted several times, by the showrunners and by GRRM, that there are vast differences in the details of the story and how those plot points are arrived at. they've said several times that there are major characters who die in the show but live in the books, and vice versa. and even before the show surpassed the books, they had already started deviating from GRRM's story in significant ways.

it seems more likely than not that GRRM planned for Dany to go mad, and shared that with the showrunners. but, of course, that book has not even been written. Winds of Winter isn't even finished yet, and there's at least one more book to come after that which he hasn't even begun writing. two 1000+ page books to set up the twist, and even GRRM probably doesn't know exactly how he's going to get Dany to that place where this character arc will happen. it's also plenty of time for him to change his mind, not just about that but about anything that happens in the remaining books. i'm not even going to try to compare how the tv show writers set up that event, with a book version that doesn't even exist yet and most likely won't for several more years. all i know is that the tv show version leading up to Dany's switch was rushed, poorly done, and unsatisfying. i don't need to know how the book version portrays this character arc to make that judgment. if GRRM plans to go through with the same ending for Dany, i can only hope he does a better job of setting it up so the final moment makes sense. it could go either way. there's nothing inherently wrong with such an ending as long as it's set up and executed properly.

and let's be clear, GRRM isn't perfect either. the first 3 books were excellent, but the last couple were slow and bloated and filled with extraneous characters and plot lines that distracted from the main players and events to a degree that GRRM seems to have written himself into a corner (or several corners) that he's had a terribly hard time writing himself back out of, hence the constant delays in getting the next book done. GRRM could very well screw up his own series too, though i suspect if he did, it would be for much different reasons. btw, peven, i though you said you hadn't read the books? on what basis exactly then do you expect more of him?

oh well, if there's any winner in this whole mess, it's George....






...Lucas. he's now responsible for only the SECOND least convincing depiction of a character's descent into madness and evil ever committed to film.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby Ribbons on Tue May 14, 2019 12:01 pm

At the very least, the exact same events told in book format would benefit from an interior monologue (third-person limited narration, if you prefer) that explains and contextualizes Dany's thoughts and feelings in the moment. Treating her descent into villainy as an unexpected (though not entirely surprising) twist does the character and the story no favors.

It's also possible that I would hate the way Martin ended his series, too; it's kind of hard to say when you can't compare the two. But one thing that's hard to argue with is that the books are told with deliberation and care, possibly to a fault. The show, particularly since it's left the written material behind, butchers nuance and detail in an attempt to rush toward major plot points. It's unintentionally become the simplified and inaccurate version of history that Martin satirizes in his work. Think about what we "knew" about Robert's Rebellion when we started the series -- a war fought to save the realm from a Mad King and his Mad Son who'd raped a lord's betrothed -- and what we know now: a war concocted by Tywin Lannister and Robert Baratheon over two young people in love with each other, and a king who was mad, yes, but justifiably isolated and paranoid over a conniving Small Council that was actively working to unseat him and murder his heir in order to move into power. The final episodes of Game of Thrones feel like the version of the story we'd hear told in Westeros 50 years later. It's not just enough to know that something happened, you need to understand how and why. Moments like the death of Ned Stark or the Red Wedding could have completely lost readers; it's a testament to the writing that people were justifiably upset, but respectful of their purpose in the story and even a little bit thrilled by their audacity. With this episode the showrunners tried to replicate those moments by relentlessly punishing the audience, but it didn't feel the least bit earned. This should have been a tragedy; instead it's a plot device.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby Peven on Tue May 14, 2019 1:42 pm

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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby TheBaxter on Tue May 14, 2019 3:19 pm

Ribbons wrote:At the very least, the exact same events told in book format would benefit from an interior monologue (third-person limited narration, if you prefer) that explains and contextualizes Dany's thoughts and feelings in the moment. Treating her descent into villainy as an unexpected (though not entirely surprising) twist does the character and the story no favors.

It's also possible that I would hate the way Martin ended his series, too; it's kind of hard to say when you can't compare the two. But one thing that's hard to argue with is that the books are told with deliberation and care, possibly to a fault. The show, particularly since it's left the written material behind, butchers nuance and detail in an attempt to rush toward major plot points. It's unintentionally become the simplified and inaccurate version of history that Martin satirizes in his work. Think about what we "knew" about Robert's Rebellion when we started the series -- a war fought to save the realm from a Mad King and his Mad Son who'd raped a lord's betrothed -- and what we know now: a war concocted by Tywin Lannister and Robert Baratheon over two young people in love with each other, and a king who was mad, yes, but justifiably isolated and paranoid over a conniving Small Council that was actively working to unseat him and murder his heir in order to move into power. The final episodes of Game of Thrones feel like the version of the story we'd hear told in Westeros 50 years later. It's not just enough to know that something happened, you need to understand how and why. Moments like the death of Ned Stark or the Red Wedding could have completely lost readers; it's a testament to the writing that people were justifiably upset, but respectful of their purpose in the story and even a little bit thrilled by their audacity. With this episode the showrunners tried to replicate those moments by relentlessly punishing the audience, but it didn't feel the least bit earned. This should have been a tragedy; instead it's a plot device.


couldn't've said it better myself. obviously, the tv series can't compete with several 1000+ page books when it comes to giving detail and nuance, portraying the thoughts and feelings inside the characters' heads, etc. and i don't think anyone realistically expects it to. but the earlier seasons at least contained a modicum of enough of that stuff to give the show more depth and complexity than you typically see in these kinds of shows, and the past couple seasons in particular have abandoned that approach in favor of delivering spectacle without substance and moving the story to an endpoint as quickly as possible. i'll always be confused about why they felt the need to hurry it along when the show is still so popular. yeah, it's expensive to make, but presumably so will the prequels/sequels/spinoffs they've got planned, and that's not stopping them. it's ironic, most of the time when a tv show delivers an unsatisfying ending it's because they took too long and dragged things out past the point of creative bankruptcy; GoT may turn out to be one of the few shows whose ending is disappointing precisely because it ended too soon.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby Wolfpack on Thu May 16, 2019 12:44 pm

If you're wondering how parents who named their kid Khaleesi feel about the last episode....

Highlights from the interview: "I don't think she did anything wrong." and "If you watch the show, she had every right."

Who's the real Khaleesi here? This woman or her daughter?
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby Peven on Thu May 16, 2019 1:31 pm

my problem with the complaining has to do with the infantalising of our adult population. the arguments justifying it completely miss the point and that is as bothersome as the complaining. audiences these days want everything little aspect of every character and action explained and fleshed out to the nth degree and even then they want more. that is why we get sequels to death. people are unable to make inferences. they have to have everything spoon fed to them and can't handle anything less than nice, neat, happy endings with everything tied up nice and tidy. there is little to no appreciation of real quality storytelling, it has become more like a bunch of junkies who want the easiest fix possible. good writing isn't explaining every little thought and describing every little detail, but thanks to the popularity of undisciplined overwriting authors like Stephen King and J.K. Rowling we have a reading public now who equates how thick a book is with how good the author must be. try picking up something by Mark Twain or Hemingway or Steinbeck and you'll see actual literature written by true craftsman except most people today don't seem as if they are equipped to read and appreciate such works. those writers expected something of their readers. it really is sad to see the collective intellectual level of our society sinking at an ever faster rate. I can only imagine the complaints those knocking GoT would have if they watched films like The Deerhunter or A Clockwork Orange or Catch 22. films like those are out of reach for those who feel they didn't have enough spelled out for them in a 8 season series. if you don't think there is a connection between simplistic and over-explained literature/entertainment in our culture today and the backwards movement we are seeing in archaic laws being passed and the simpleminded politicians being successful then you are part of the problem.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby TheBaxter on Thu May 16, 2019 6:46 pm



i'm not.

but, as long as the topic is up for discussion, there's an easy solution. if you named your kid Khaleesi, just say she was named after a different Khaleesi... it's only a title, there were plenty of Khaleesi's before Dany. just go back to season 6 and pick whichever one of the Dosh Kaleen you like best. now, the more important question, for those who used the name after watching the show: how will they all feel when they find out they've been mispronouncing it this whole time?

as for people who named their kids Danaerys... well they're pretty screwed. but at least they didn't choose Rey :twisted:
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby Fievel on Fri May 17, 2019 9:56 am

TheBaxter wrote:well they're pretty screwed. but at least they didn't choose Rey :twisted:


If science were to allow the impossible an my wife became pregnant again with a daughter, I'd offer Arya Rey as an option.
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby so sorry on Fri May 17, 2019 3:20 pm

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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby Wolfpack on Fri May 17, 2019 11:12 pm

Or maybe Bran warged into Dany
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Re: GAME OF THRONES

Postby Al Shut on Sat May 18, 2019 9:59 am

Fievel wrote:If science were to allow the impossible an my wife became pregnant again with a daughter, I'd offer Arya Rey as an option.


Arya Rey Mousekewitz?
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