A Song of Ice and Fire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby so sorry on Tue Jul 05, 2016 2:20 pm

TheBaxter wrote:GRR Martin's original outline and description (with possible spoilers!) for the entire 3-book ASOIAF series

the main spoiler is the 5 characters GRRM foresaw surviving the entire series and being the focus of the tale. they're all still alive, and with one possible exception, all seem to still be as central to the story as they were in his original vision.

more fun, however, are reading all the things that have since changed. for example:

- sansa and joffrey have a baby!
- no red wedding! robb dies in battle, and catelyn flees north with bran and arya.
- a love affair between jon and... arya? it's looking like jon+dany might happen in the actual series, or, if it's a stark sister, jon+sansa. sansa seems the most different from her original character, since this describes her as staying loyal to joffrey. and arya is never all on her own after the first book, like she ends up in the actual series, so the description of arya here actually resembles sansa more than how arya turned out. that's also why i think arya, as one of the main 5 characters, may actually now be arya + sansa, or even just sansa. so even though arya is originall described as surviving til the end, i think she may actually not make it anymore.
- jon's true parentage revealed in the last book! little did GRRM know that his ultimate twist would be spoiled by a TV show of the same name before he ever finished that last book of his.
- dany kills drogo! (on purpose, i mean)
- jaime ruthlessly kills everyone and ascends to the iron throne! looks like cersei has taken over that part of his character (no mention of cersei in the letter).


Wild stuff! Not sure about that love affair business though...
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Ribbons on Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:54 pm

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Peven on Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:41 am

that is one dirty old fucked up dude. I guarantee he at least thought about putting human-dragon bestiality in there, too. why everyone thinks he is some adorable charming old guy has always been beyond me. I mean, sure, I love the show, but come on, when you consider all the rape and various sexual debauchery, some with decidedly underage girls, and it was written by some old guy with a santa beard.........he's not charmingly adorable, he's the old nasty dude who shows up at the strip club at 12:01 p.m. right after they open and just sits there making his $20 in $1's last until closing time.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby so sorry on Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:29 am

Peven wrote:...but come on, when you consider all the rape and various sexual debauchery, some with decidedly underage girls, and it was written by some old guy with a santa beard.........he's not charmingly adorable, he's the old nasty dude who shows up at the strip club at 12:01 p.m. right after they open and just sits there making his $20 in $1's last until closing time.


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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby TheBaxter on Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:38 am

Peven wrote:that is one dirty old fucked up dude. I guarantee he at least thought about putting human-dragon bestiality in there, too. why everyone thinks he is some adorable charming old guy has always been beyond me. I mean, sure, I love the show, but come on, when you consider all the rape and various sexual debauchery, some with decidedly underage girls, and it was written by some old guy with a santa beard.........he's not charmingly adorable, he's the old nasty dude who shows up at the strip club at 12:01 p.m. right after they open and just sits there making his $20 in $1's last until closing time.


i don't think anyone thinks of GRRM as an adorable old man. he's a sadist and a perv (at least towards his characters; IRL, you'd have to ask his wife i guess). but if he was a choirboy, the ASOIAF series would be boring as fuck.
also, for as much rape and torture and sexual debauchery as there is in these books, i suspect it's still less than there was in the actual middle ages. or a modern-day college campus.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Ribbons on Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:38 pm

To me this just shows how much a story can change on the way from idea to finished work, that even an old pro like Martin ends up with something completely different from what he first imagined.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby TheBaxter on Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:24 pm

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby so sorry on Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:44 pm




For the love of the Seven please be true!

And I will be faced/forced to buy the hardbound edition since there's no way in hell I'll be able to wait until the paperback comes out. Which will then mean I need to go back and buy the first 5 in hardbound because there's no way in hell I can have just one like that...
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Ribbons on Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:59 pm

Bah! I'll believe it when George R.R. Martin confirms it.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Al Shut on Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:47 pm

I'll believe it when I hold the book in my hand
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby TheBaxter on Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:35 pm

i'll believe it when GRRM is still alive to finish and release A Dream of Spring 10 years from now.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby TheBaxter on Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:41 pm

Ribbons wrote:Bah! I'll believe it when George R.R. Martin confirms it.


GRRM says The Winds of Winter is coming out this year.....







.... or not
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby so sorry on Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:31 pm

TheBaxter wrote:
Ribbons wrote:Bah! I'll believe it when George R.R. Martin confirms it.


GRRM says The Winds of Winter is coming out this year.....







.... or not



The man who cried book


That's funny


I think it will be out this year. (But hey, I thought the same thing last year),” he responded.


That's not
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Fievel on Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:44 pm

At this point I'd be fine with him withholding the release until after the HBO series ends. I'm not saying to stop writing! But if he were to finish writing the books, edited, and ready for publication and released annually once the show finished? I'd be fine with that. Now I'm a fan brought in by the show, so I have a fraction of the time invested that some do. The show will end next year (2018), if I recall correctly. I think there would be a touch more demand from more casual fans if they wait. Hell...create an advertisement blitz on tv/Internet. There's bound to be significant changes between book and series. Milk that shit!

Don't mind me. Just thinking aloud.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby TheBaxter on Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:15 pm

Fievel wrote:At this point I'd be fine with him withholding the release until after the HBO series ends. I'm not saying to stop writing! But if he were to finish writing the books, edited, and ready for publication and released annually once the show finished? I'd be fine with that. Now I'm a fan brought in by the show, so I have a fraction of the time invested that some do. The show will end next year (2018), if I recall correctly. I think there would be a touch more demand from more casual fans if they wait. Hell...create an advertisement blitz on tv/Internet. There's bound to be significant changes between book and series. Milk that shit!

Don't mind me. Just thinking aloud.


me too. i've read all the books up to this point, but now with just 2 seasons left, and with the stories having diverged so far already, i'd rather just finish off the tv show, and then go back and start the books fresh from the beginning. that's what i'm planning to do anyway, though with this season coming out in the summer, and then the last season next summer, it's entirely possible the show will end before there's another book to read anyway.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Ribbons on Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:55 am

The next book's gotta be ready before the final season at least, right? I mean... right?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Wolfpack on Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:45 pm

You expect too much.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby TheBaxter on Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:44 am

George RR Martin will finish writing these books... he promises.

so yeah, you can stop worrying about him keeling over from a heart attack or anything like that. now that he's promised to finish them, he'd never decide to die before they're done.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby so sorry on Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:23 pm

TheBaxter wrote:George RR Martin will finish writing these books... he promises.

so yeah, you can stop worrying about him keeling over from a heart attack or anything like that. now that he's promised to finish them, he'd never decide to die before they're done.



And I promise to buy it.

In the meantime, I'll reread the series for the 4th time this year, rewatch the show for the 8th time, and read the stupid Targaryan book that I'll be getting for Christmas.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Al Shut on Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:58 pm

At this point I'm convinced Martin will soon anounce he finally finished the book everybody has been waiting for all these years

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby so sorry on Tue May 14, 2019 9:25 am

The show, and Dany's decent into apparent madness got me thinking about the books, and what/when/how GRRM may ultimately come to the same conclusion.

Show-wise, one of the main motivations for her anger/hysteria is the knowledge that Jon is actually a Targ, and he has a better claim to the throne then she does.

Book-wise, we aren't anywhere close to this reveal yet, BUT, there already is an established character that may fit the same role: Aegon Targyrean, Dany's brother, who is supposed to be dead. This plot (of Varys and the other guy I can't remember right now) involves seating this kid on the Iron throne as an alternative to Dany (I guess a back up plan?). By the end of the books, Aegon is already in Westeros with the Golden Company, and is starting to move around and establish himself. They even talk about getting to Westeros before Dany, in an effort to beat her there I think. Perhaps as the next book progresses, she learns about all of this, and this drives her to move more quickly to attempt to beat her brother, which could lead to her making some blunders (brought on by her advisors like the show), leading her to anger/frustration/rage?
Just a (not well thought out) thought.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Wolfpack on Tue May 14, 2019 9:27 am

Martin will tease a big announcement. It will turn out to be another Wild Cards anthology.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Ribbons on Tue May 14, 2019 12:23 pm

so sorry wrote:The show, and Dany's decent into apparent madness got me thinking about the books, and what/when/how GRRM may ultimately come to the same conclusion.

Show-wise, one of the main motivations for her anger/hysteria is the knowledge that Jon is actually a Targ, and he has a better claim to the throne then she does.

Book-wise, we aren't anywhere close to this reveal yet, BUT, there already is an established character that may fit the same role: Aegon Targyrean, Dany's brother, who is supposed to be dead. This plot (of Varys and the other guy I can't remember right now) involves seating this kid on the Iron throne as an alternative to Dany (I guess a back up plan?). By the end of the books, Aegon is already in Westeros with the Golden Company, and is starting to move around and establish himself. They even talk about getting to Westeros before Dany, in an effort to beat her there I think. Perhaps as the next book progresses, she learns about all of this, and this drives her to move more quickly to attempt to beat her brother, which could lead to her making some blunders (brought on by her advisors like the show), leading her to anger/frustration/rage?
Just a (not well thought out) thought.


No, that's exactly where my mind went as well. It would make the turn a lot more understandable because there's someone out there who not just (supposedly) has a more legitimate claim to the throne, but is actually trying to claim the throne. People make fun of all the extraneous characters that Martin's introduced in the last two books (RIP Quentyn Martell), but it's hard to judge their value before we know their ultimate role in the story.

He's gotten a lot of shit for being unable to finish his series on time, but even if it's somewhat deserved, my hope is that the issues the show has had sticking the landing with what I assume is the same general outline proves that it's a lot harder than it looks. And I'm not just talking about the Mother's Day Massacre here, but some of the baffling decisions people have made in order to advance the plot and the anticlimactic/unsatisfying ending to certain characters and storylines. It's not just having an idea of where you want things to go, but getting to a place where it all makes sense and works on the page. Martin is probably being too precious by agonizing over how to wrap things up, but it's helpful to now have a counterpoint to see the dangers of wrapping things up too quickly.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby TheBaxter on Tue May 14, 2019 3:28 pm

i'll always be of the opinion that the past couple books were bloated and overlong, and that there are too many extraneous subplots and characters thrown in the mix there. some of those characters may turn out to be hugely important (though surely they can't all be) and some of those plotlines may have a huge impact on future events. but that doesn't change the experience of reading them in the moment. those books were hard to get through at times. forcing people to read hundreds of pages about characters without knowing if any of the stuff they're saying or doing will actually end up mattering or not is not a good approach to writing or world-building. if you get to the end of one of these books and still aren't sure if a certain character or plotline is important or not, then the writer has failed. GRRM would have been wise to keep it leaner, only introduce the characters that were absolutely necessary to move the larger story forward. the world and the cast of characters in it were plenty large enough already.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby so sorry on Tue May 14, 2019 3:52 pm

TheBaxter wrote:i'll always be of the opinion that the past couple books were bloated and overlong, and that there are too many extraneous subplots and characters thrown in the mix there. some of those characters may turn out to be hugely important (though surely they can't all be) and some of those plotlines may have a huge impact on future events. but that doesn't change the experience of reading them in the moment. those books were hard to get through at times. forcing people to read hundreds of pages about characters without knowing if any of the stuff they're saying or doing will actually end up mattering or not is not a good approach to writing or world-building. if you get to the end of one of these books and still aren't sure if a certain character or plotline is important or not, then the writer has failed. GRRM would have been wise to keep it leaner, only introduce the characters that were absolutely necessary to move the larger story forward. the world and the cast of characters in it were plenty large enough already.


Yeah I'm kinda in the opposite camp. Obviously time will tell (maybe :( ) if every character that's been introduced will have some kind of impact, but I think each character that's been introduced will have a conclusion of some kind. For example, you can say that Quentin Martell was a dead end story that bloated book 5 (or 4, I forget which), because he ultimately didn't move the main story forward, but I think even his minor part did have some impact on Dany, even on a small level. Was his story boring? Yeah, pretty much. But Martin had a reason for putting him in there.

For me, the hardest chapters to get thru were always the Greyjoy stuff. Man I fucking hate the Greyjoys.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby TheBaxter on Tue May 21, 2019 2:12 am

GRRM on the show ending vs. the book ending:

And I’m writing. Winter is coming, I told you, long ago… and so it is. THE WINDS OF WINTER is very late, I know, I know, but it will be done. I won’t say when, I’ve tried that before, only to burn you all and jinx myself… but I will finish it, and then will come A DREAM OF SPRING.

How will it all end? I hear people asking. The same ending as the show? Different?

Well… yes. And no. And yes. And no. And yes. And no. And yes.

I am working in a very different medium than David and Dan, never forget. They had eight hours for this final season. I expect these last two books of mine will fill 3000 manuscript pages between them before I’m done… and if more pages and chapters and scenes are needed, I’ll add them. And of course the butterfly effect will be at work as well; those of you who follow this Not A Blog will know that I’ve been talking about that since season one. There are characters who never made it onto the screen at all, and others who died in the show but still live in the books… so if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI, and a myriad of other characters both great and small that viewers of the show never had the chance to meet. And yes, there will be unicorns… of a sort…

Book or show, which will be the “real” ending? It’s a silly question. How many children did Scarlett O’Hara have?

How about this? I’ll write it. You read it. Then everyone can make up their own mind, and argue about it on the internet.


so the biggest difference between the book ending and the show ending, it seems, will be that Arya will ride out of post-apocalyptic King's Landing on a white unicorn instead of a white horse.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Wolfpack on Tue May 21, 2019 8:36 am

Arya will get her own spinoff entitled "Wander Woman."
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby TheBaxter on Tue May 21, 2019 10:29 am

she's gonna become a pirate, she already has the perfect pirate name... ARRRRRR-ya
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