Star Wars 9: SKYWALKERS

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Re: Star Wars 9: SKYWALKERS

Postby Wolfpack on Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:33 am

Fievel wrote:Too much story packed into one film, never allowing a moment to breathe. New characters are never even moderately developed. So much blatant fan service designed to upset no one...
..and I ate that shit up, loving every minute of the ride.


Gotta introduce underdeveloped characters so that you have material for new EU novels!
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Re: Star Wars 9: SKYWALKERS

Postby Ribbons on Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:24 pm

I've never been a particularly big Star Wars fan, so take this for what it's worth when I say that I kind of hated Episode 9. It's a bad ending by a director who's notorious for bad endings; all the parts with any dramatic heft are basically lifted from Return of the Jedi. And while I gave The Force Awakens a pass for essentially remaking A New Hope for a new generation, the rest of the series had to do something different to justify its existence. Acting like this is somehow a satisfactory conclusion to what they're calling "The Skywalker Saga" when the Skywalker saga concluded the exact same way 36 years ago is almost offensive. The rest of it is Abrams' worst storytelling instincts on display, as the plot bounces from MacGuffin to MacGuffin to MacGuffin -- we need to find a secret knife that's got a secret language written on it that leads us to a secret map that leads us to a secret, weird space GPS that leads us to Palpatine's secret fortress…? -- and it moves so quickly in an effort to distract you from the fact that none of it makes any sense that there's barely any time for a moment to breathe. And though I know they brought the character of Leia back in an attempt to give fans closure, all the scenes with Carrie Fisher (or the back of someone dressed up to look like Carrie Fisher) are really weird and kind of off-putting. The few lines she actually has are obviously random B-roll from the last two movies that they had to then write the scene around, and when they dub dialogue in from off-screen, I can't turn off the part of my brain that knows it's not her speaking and she's not really there. I get that it was a hard choice, but I'm not sure it was the right choice. It's also hard for me to shut out the behind-the-scenes controversy that's plagued every production since Disney bought Lucasfilm, and so while some fans may welcome a return to form after The Last Jedi or the generous heapings of fan service meant to remind people why they love Star Wars in the first place, I see a franchise that doesn't seem to know what it actually wants to be.


That said, I felt nothing when they brought back musical themes from the original trilogy at the end, or when they gave a loving nod to the birth of the series during a ritual celebration that takes place in the second act, so it's possible that this movie wasn't made for me.
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Re: Star Wars 9: SKYWALKERS

Postby Fievel on Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:20 am

Ribbons wrote:...I can't turn off the part of my brain...


For some reason, this phrase alone triggered (god I hate that word) something in me I don't think I've ever articulated before - I never have watched any Star Wars movie on its first viewing with any sort of critical eye. Never. I'm solely blaming this on my love of the OT as a child (saw Star Wars & ROTJ in the theater - my mom thought ESB was too intense for me, then bought me multiple story books that told said "too intense" story, Nice, eh?). My initial viewing of the prequels, and now sequels & side films, was all about the experience - as if it were a theme park ride. I guess I'm the Star Wars junkie that's looking to match that first experience, but never quite getting there.

Why am I saying any of this? Because I agree with every fact you pointed out. 100%! But having seen the film after a great dinner, in a Dolby Theater with such unmatchable sound, with my entire family (first SW film with everyone*) as well as my sister and nephew, and all of this in super-comfy recliners that had butt-rumbling subwoofers in each of them...none of that mattered. That the movie was almost nonstop action made it essentially a thrill ride for me. The humor and back-and-forth banter was the best since the original trilogy, making it a fun ride. The Emperor coming back (spoiled in trailers) and monologuing during the fleet battle was like an upside-down loop followed a few moments later by a corkscrew - it's been done before (Luke & Vader) and before (Anakin & Dooku), but there was enough difference to make it interesting for me.

I guarantee you that everything you pointed out will bother me in future viewings, but it's a matter of how much - will I still enjoy it after multiple viewings (as I have the sequels & R1), or will its issues become too much to ignore (the prequels & Solo for me) and cause me to lose the love?

I guess all this comes back to your first line- "I've never been a particularly big Star Wars fan..."
And I just wrote a novel explaining the blueprint of my personal SW fandom.
Shit.

Thank god I'm married and my Mom is dead...otherwise there would be a basement with my name on it. :shock:

*My youngest son (age 8) has, up until about a month ago, refused to watch any Star Wars film. Why? Because he has always loved the Stormtroopers. He thought their armor and masks were really cool. But whenever he watched a movie, they always died. So because of that, he stopped watching them and never went to see the new movies at the theater....until a month ago when he joined the whole family and watched Episodes 7&8 in preparation for 9. Now he's hooked.
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Re: Star Wars 9: SKYWALKERS

Postby TheBaxter on Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:17 am

i haven't seen this film yet and probably wont' till after xmas, but...

i haven't watched most of these films with a critical eye the first time either. the OT obviously because i was a kid, and kids don't have critical eyes, which is why we liked so much crap during the 80s. the ultimate proof is that i actually enjoyed The Phantom Menace the first time i watched it, in a packed theater, on opening night. these days, the only time i would consider watching it again is if i just ingested poison and needed something to make me puke. the OT is so embedded in my brain's nostalgia cells that i won't ever not enjoy them, but every other SW film since has gotten worse each time i've watched it... except Last Jedi, which is the only film i actually DID watch with a critical eye on first viewing. i came out of it feeling really mixed, but mostly preoccupied with the bad parts (the slo-mo starship chase, the convoluted and useless Canto Bight subplot that could have been avoided simply by having one character tell another character where they were headed from the beginning) but subsequent viewings i've been able to enjoy the good parts, mostly involving Luke and Rey, and the ways bits of the mythology get subverted, more each time.

so maybe this final film will ultimately age better if i actually go into it more jaded?
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Re: Star Wars 9: SKYWALKERS

Postby Fievel on Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:56 pm

TheBaxter wrote:so maybe this final film will ultimately age better if i actually go into it more jaded?


Genius! Either it sucks and you're justified in your jaded feelings, or you'll enjoy it. Either way, you win.
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Re: Star Wars 9: SKYWALKERS

Postby TheBaxter on Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:13 pm

Fievel wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:so maybe this final film will ultimately age better if i actually go into it more jaded?


Genius! Either it sucks and you're justified in your jaded feelings, or you'll enjoy it. Either way, you win.


i'd love to take credit for it, but the source of my wisdom and life philosophy is lloyd dobler
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Re: Star Wars 9: SKYWALKERS

Postby TheBaxter on Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:48 pm

crap. i wrote a review in here last week, but it looks like it didn't get posted. oh well, i don't have the energy to repeat everything, or even to try to remember most of this forgettable film. there was nothing in this movie i loved, and nothing i hated, it all just sort of washed over me in a wave of 'meh'. these films never made me care about these characters enough to care what happened to them in the end. that pretty much sums up this film for me.

two things: all the leia stuff was bad, and they should've killed her off in the previous film. her role is reduced to a bunch of cryptic one-liners and silent worried looks that don't mesh with the rest of the film, and do a disservice to a character who was always a blunt straight-talker in past films. cutting and pasting a performance like this together out of the leftover scraps of past films is no better than just giving her the CGI Peter Cushing treatment would've been, but at least then they could've made her part in the film fit better.

also, how the hell did Palpatine build a massive fleet of death-star-firing star destroyers on that hidden planet? were all those robed figures in the auditorium the zombie remnants of the "contractors" who got blown up while building the death star in ROTJ? it took 18 years for the emperor to build a single death star between ROTS and ANH, and two more films to half-build a 2nd death star... but now he's suddenly able to build thousands of them, and without the massive resources of the Empire to draw on?
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Re: Star Wars 9: SKYWALKERS

Postby Fievel on Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:42 pm

TheBaxter wrote:also, how the hell did Palpatine build a massive fleet of death-star-firing star destroyers on that hidden planet? were all those robed figures in the auditorium the zombie remnants of the "contractors" who got blown up while building the death star in ROTJ? it took 18 years for the emperor to build a single death star between ROTS and ANH, and two more films to half-build a 2nd death star... but now he's suddenly able to build thousands of them, and without the massive resources of the Empire to draw on?


Former Imperial day laborers.
Dudes out in the spaceport with signs "Will help build planet-killing spaceships for food."
Gungans.....cuz fuck those guys.
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Re: Star Wars 9: SKYWALKERS

Postby so sorry on Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:40 pm

My intital reaction to Episode 9 was "not bad, better than I anticipated, but just don't think about it in any detail and you'll be fine".

Then I started to think about it in detail, and man does this thing fall to pieces.

Aside from the massive illogical problems (as noted above for example, how the f did Palpatine build/man/hundreds of new/better destroyers in that amount of time), some of the more personal plotlines I had issues with. I really think they screwed up by shoehorning Carrie Fisher in this one. And I call cop out for having Rey declare herself a Skywalker at the end like that, and not own up to her true heritage. #BeYouRey

My list of gripes is too long, and maybe more of them have to do with MY feelings towards star wars, so I'll just say that overall, the final trilogy was just OK for me, but leaps and bounds better than the prequels (which lets face it, is some of the worst filmmaking out there). I'm happy to move on if they are, and find a new set of characters work with (I think? I don't even know what the plan is moving forward).

I did like the Han Solo cameo, which honestly took me by surprise (mostly because my mind was wandering at that point with the endless light saber battle).
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Re: Star Wars 9: SKYWALKERS

Postby TheBaxter on Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:13 pm

i think these movies would have been better off if they had focused solely on the new characters. these films did nothing to make me care about the new characters, and managed to make me stop caring about the old characters at the same time. we all knew leia was going to die, so it didn't carry as much weight as it should have (and all the weird scenes of her shoehorned into the first part of the film almost made it feel like a relief when she finally kicked the bucket). and chewie's "death" didn't carry any weight because it was obvious he wasn't on the ship that exploded, because they wouldn't dispatch an OT character so offhandedly.

i think this trilogy would have been more successful if it had been set further in the future, and luke and leia and han were nothing but stories and legends for the new characters. instead they tried to balance between the old and new characters, and the end result felt disjointed and unsatisfying for all of them. i have no doubt though, that there will be plenty of new Rey material, whether in films or tv or what. episodes VII-IX felt like one long origin story for her, especially where the final film ends.
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Re: Star Wars 9: SKYWALKERS

Postby so sorry on Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:42 pm

TheBaxter wrote:i
i think this trilogy would have been more successful if it had been set further in the future, and luke and leia and han were nothing but stories and legends for the new characters. instead they tried to balance between the old and new characters, and the end result felt disjointed and unsatisfying for all of them. i have no doubt though, that there will be plenty of new Rey material, whether in films or tv or what. episodes VII-IX felt like one long origin story for her, especially where the final film ends.



They kinda are doing that in the Mandolorian, with the baby yoda and its force powers not really being recognized by anyone (as "the force"). And that's not set in the future, but right after Return of the Jedi.

Listen, they shouldn't have "tried to balance" old and new characters in the Prequels either, but they did. Freaking C3PO being BUILT BY DARTH VADER!!!!!! R2D2 knew EVERYTHING that happened to Anikan too!
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Re: Star Wars 9: SKYWALKERS

Postby TheBaxter on Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:33 pm

star wars is a hot mess

first of all, anyone who's still outraged by anything to do with star wars at this point should, in the words of william shatner, "get a life"

that said, all this expanded universe and novelization stuff is really getting out of hand, and sure enough, it's making the entire SW universe appear more and more stupid. so Rey's dad is a failed Palpatine clone? if that's so, then Rey isn't even really Palpatine's granddaughter, since a clone is not the same thing as a son... that would make her closer to his daughter, if anything. how many times are they really gonna retcon her heritage? every new comic book or novel seems to be obsessed with making some new shocking revelation about how some character is related to another character, which is pointless because you're never going to outdo "luke, i am your father" so why bother trying? at this point, the whole series has devolved into ancestry.com with laser guns. it's almost enough to make you nostalgic for midichlorians.

i'm so glad i don't waste time on any of this E.U. crap. Disney seems intent on running this property into the ground after extracting as many dollars as possible from it, so i guess it was all inevitable.
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Re: Star Wars 9: SKYWALKERS

Postby so sorry on Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:39 pm

TheBaxter wrote:star wars is a hot mess.



“The Rise of Skywalker” ends with Rey discovering she is the granddaughter of Palpatine. The reveal hinted at Palpatine having a lover who gave birth to his child, but the novelization of the film confirms that’s not the case. After Palpatine’s apparent death in “Return of the Jedi,” he “thrust his consciousness” into a clone body but “the transfer was imperfect.” Various members of the Sith worked to create a host for Palpatine’s consciousness, but not all of these host bodies were successful. One of the failed hosts was “useless” and “powerless” and “a not-quite-idenitcal clone” of the Sith Lord. The clone body was not strong enough to host Palpatine, but it was strong enough to live a life and become Rey’s father.


Good grief. So if the clone was inferior, then shouldn't Rey's Force abilities be inferior too?
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Re: Star Wars 9: SKYWALKERS

Postby TheBaxter on Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:36 pm

so sorry wrote:
TheBaxter wrote:star wars is a hot mess.



“The Rise of Skywalker” ends with Rey discovering she is the granddaughter of Palpatine. The reveal hinted at Palpatine having a lover who gave birth to his child, but the novelization of the film confirms that’s not the case. After Palpatine’s apparent death in “Return of the Jedi,” he “thrust his consciousness” into a clone body but “the transfer was imperfect.” Various members of the Sith worked to create a host for Palpatine’s consciousness, but not all of these host bodies were successful. One of the failed hosts was “useless” and “powerless” and “a not-quite-idenitcal clone” of the Sith Lord. The clone body was not strong enough to host Palpatine, but it was strong enough to live a life and become Rey’s father.


Good grief. So if the clone was inferior, then shouldn't Rey's Force abilities be inferior too?


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Re: Star Wars 9: SKYWALKERS

Postby caruso_stalker217 on Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:50 am

I wasn't around at the time to review this film, so I guess I'll review it now.

It's a bloated fucking mess of a disaster and it's probably the worst Star Wars movie ever made.

But I saw it with a friend of mine, we basically made fun of it the whole time, and there were some cool puppets in there, so it wasn't a total loss.
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Re: Star Wars 9: SKYWALKERS

Postby so sorry on Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:55 am

caruso_stalker217 wrote:It's a bloated fucking mess of a disaster


No debate there.

caruso_stalker217 wrote:it's probably the worst Star Wars movie ever made.


I may still give the nod to Attack of the Clones or Revenge of the Sith.
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Re: Star Wars 9: SKYWALKERS

Postby TheBaxter on Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:08 am

so sorry wrote:
caruso_stalker217 wrote:it's probably the worst Star Wars movie ever made.


I may still give the nod to Attack of the Clones or Revenge of the Sith.


ex-squeeze me, but no Jake Lloyd, no/less Jar-Jar... meesa thinkin' Phantom Menace is muy muy worse. yippee!
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Re: Star Wars 9: SKYWALKERS

Postby caruso_stalker217 on Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:09 pm

Look, PHANTOM MENACE is terrible. But it's terrible in a cohesive way. RISE OF WHATEVER is an absolute mess that feels like they were literally making shit up as they went along, which can't be true because somebody had to sit down and write this shit. Introducing Palpatine in the first five minutes (fuck, during the opening crawl!) felt desperate and weird. Introducing a bunch of new bullshit Force powers, characters dying only to be resurrected immediately for no reason, Mark Hamill not giving a single fuck, and Luke just tossing off "Yeah, I always knew you were a Palpatine and so did Leia somehow" like it's nothing.

Who wrote this shit, a CHILD?

Then the fact that this is supposed to wrap up the whole Star Wars saga just makes it worse. If this was just some random Marvel movie or something it could easily be dismissed and forgotten. This was supposed to wrap up forty years of Skywalkers and Vaders and goongas and such and it's such a tossed off pile of garbage. It's like they didn't even try.

So, yeah, this pretty much killed Star Wars I guess.
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Re: Star Wars 9: SKYWALKERS

Postby TheBaxter on Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:39 pm

as a standalone film, it was fun and entertaining and empty, like a typical blockbuster film.
as the final film of a trilogy, it's a huge disappointment.
as the final film of the "Skywalker Saga" or whatever we're calling the entire 9-film arc, it's an abomination.

p.s. there will be an Episode X-XII, mark my words.

i think the prequels were worse because they ruin characters that were built up in the original trilogy, especially Anakin/Vader. they turn Yoda into a flying monkey doing lightsaber gymnastics. they have much worse acting and much worse dialogue, from start to finish. and they indirectly ruined one of my favorite moments of the OT, because Lucas sampled Vader's "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" from ROTS and transplanted it into ROTJ and now i can't even watch that scene anymore except on an old crappy DVD version. Eps VII-IX were pointless and disappointing, but at least i can ignore them if i want.
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